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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Oct 1987

Vol. 374 No. 5

1988 Estimates for Public Services and 1988 Public Capital Programme: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Taoiseach on Tuesday, 20 October 1987:
That Dáil Éireann takes note of the 1988 Estimates for the Public Services (Abridged Version) and of the 1988 Summary Public Capital Programme.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 3.
3. After "Programme" to add "and Dáil Éireann notes in that under the terms of the Estimates, major reductions in the level of public services will occur, and will, therefore, undertake an in depth examination of the Estimates as presented to it by the Government with a view to allowing those members objecting to individual proposals to put forward fully costed alternative proposals which will yield a similar saving in this and subsequent years, and for this purpose directs the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to immediately present amendments to Standing Orders governing Estimates debates to allow—
(a) amendments to subheads in individual estimates to reduce the amount provided,
(b) amendments to the subheads in individual estimates to increase the amount provided if the amendment contains within it a proposal to reduce another subhead, in the estimate, or in the same group of estimates, by the same amount thereby ensuring that the overall provisions of the estimate for this and subsequent years are not increased overall,
(c) amendments to increase provisions for particular subheads, as set out at subparagraph (b) above shall not have effect if, within two weeks of their being passed by the Dáil the Minister for Finance certifies, for reasons stated, to a Committee of Public Expenditure that the proposal designed to achieve savings to compensate for the proposed increase will not in fact achieve the savings claimed, and
(d) where the Minister for Finance makes a certification within the terms of subparagraph (c) above he shall, if requested, give oral evidence in public before a Committee of Public Expenditure to explain the reasons for his certification.
—Deputy Noonan(Limerick East.)

It is clear that this Government's success in negotiating a Programme for National Recovery with employers, unions and some farmers and the action it is taking through reductions in public expenditure in order to stabilise the national finances has left the Opposition spokesmen in something of a dilemma.

They could not face up to the question of whether to bring the social partners into their confidence. They were fainthearted about trying to get the maximum consensus possible in support of the steps necessary to deal with grave national problems. For Fianna Fáil securing the widest and possible support for remedial action to get us out of serious economic and social difficulties is a matter of political philosophy. Consensus is never given in modern life. It has to be worked at. It takes political courage to pursue stringent financial policies, exercised in the national interest in the medium and long term.

In facing up to the grave financial problems of this country, we decided as a matter of principle that it was better to bring the social partners along with us as far as possible. As everybody knows, the Coalition Government turned their backs on such an approach. They spurned the idea of consulting the social partners and far from facing up to the increasingly serious financial crisis, they simply added to the problems. Consulting the social partners does not mean that we jettisoned the Government's responsibility to govern or that we have abandoned the capacity to take the hard decisions. The publication of the Book of Estimates for 1988 bears this out. The fact that Government action to reduce public expenditure involves doing what many Opposition spokesmen and virtually all economic pundits had been advocating has left both groups searching frantically for some basis on which to criticise the Programme for National Recovery and the reductions in proposed expenditure. The results of their frantic search are surprising to say the least. The total of the cuts is acceptable, they say, but the individual cuts which go to make this total are open to question.

The expenditure allocations for 1988 reflect our commitment to distributing the burden evenly across all sectors, while conserving resources to ensure that the weaker sections are protected to the greatest possible extent. We have protected some services from any appreciable reduction and have agreed to maintain the overall value of social welfare benefits. Our commitment to working with the social partners is no hollow exercise. In agreement with the trade union movement, the Government have ensured that the interests of the low paid and of those on social welfare are given priority in the Programme for National Recovery and are protected to the greatest possible extent in the Estimates.

The Opposition — and some economic experts — have homed in on the pay increases for the public service over the next three years or so. Feeling they have a soft target in public servants, they say the increases proposed are excessive or that there should have been no increases at all for these groups.

Do they think they could win general approval for immediate action to tackle our serious economic and social problems by leaving pay determination to a market free-for-all? Would they hope to secure industrial peace by imposing a pay freeze? They would have left the weaker sections of the workforce without any protection for their standard of living. They would not have been thanked either by the many middle income earners who, with little clout to win themselves special pay terms in a free for all, would be forced to face greatly reduced living standards.

I find this attitude most difficult to understand. Anybody who has a notion of industrial relations and the pay determination process can recognise a realistic pay settlement when he sees one. The pay increase is reasonable and worthwhile for both sides. The stability it gives is invaluable for the Government and the private sector in planning for the medium term. It would be hard to justify a pay freeze of up to three or four years for public servants and for public servants only, as is implied in some Opposition criticisms.

Reductions in public expenditure require some rationalisation and reduction in numbers and this would be so regardless of whether any pay increases were negotiated for public servants. We simply cannot continue to employ more people than we can afford to pay. A pay pause of six months after the expiry of the current pay agreements in the public sector will apply. The Estimates were framed on the basis that no further general increases would apply in 1987 and this position will now be realised when the current agreement expires. The programme puts a limit of 2.5 per cent on pay increases throughout the economy for the next three years. Indeed, unless the Opposition are advocating a total suspension of conciliation, arbitration and the Labour Court for public servants, it is hard to see what they are about.

The programme contains pay agreements aimed at achieving long term stability in an environment of low inflation. By providing a framework for pay agreements over the next three years the possibility of industrial conflict is lessened. Employers will be able to predict cost increases due to pay in the medium term and plan accordingly. It is also important for all concerned in the public service that pay increases are clearly set out. A three year pay agreement removes one element of uncertainty in stabilising the national debt.

The Government as employer have given a clear lead in the area of pay. An agreement now exists in respect of the private sector. The Government have consistently made the case that pay moderation is vital if we, a small trading nation, are to remain competitive in world markets. Pay moderation is also central to our efforts to compete for employment-creating investment.

No collective agreement, however well-intentioned, can provide a total guarantee of industrial peace. However, the maturity and awareness of economic reality which have been so evident during discussions on the Programme for National Recovery gives me cause for optimism that the incidence of industrial disputes can be minimised. This same clear-sighted, pragmatic approach should contribute much to reducing tension in difficult situations. It should also make the resolution of disputes much easier, when they do occur.

The Government do not underestimate the seriousness of the problems which face us. Confronting these problems will require hard work and tough decisions on all sides. In recent years the average number of strikes and days lost from industrial action have declined. The commitment to co-operation on all sides has been underlined and strengthened in the process of drawing up the Programme for National Recovery. With increased co-operation, I am confident that the number of strikes and days lost will continue to decline. This can only improve the environment for job creation.

It is a tribute to the maturity of the leaders of the trade unions, the employers and the farmers that a broad-ranging agreement has been hammered out through these discussions. The social partners realised that a narrow defence of sectional interests could provide no basis for national recovery and that what was demanded was that everyone work together to achieve economic growth.

There are those on the opposite side of the House who said it could not be done, whether because of their fatalism or their contempt for working on the basis of consensus. They believed that the social partners lacked the sense of responsibility necessary to translate the principles agreed in the NESC report into a workable agreement.

It is a major achievement for all concerned to have concluded the Programme for National Recovery in a few months in a very difficult economic environment. The seriousness of the economic problems facing the country meant that there was little room for manoeuvre. Nonetheless a programme has been concluded. It is simply outrageous to imply that the Government have succeeded over the course of six months in manipulating the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Federated Union of Employers, the Confederation of Irish Industry, the Construction Industry Federation, the Irish Farmers Association, Macra na Feirme and the Irish Co-operative Organisation Society. Those who make this kind of charge should cop on to themselves.

It is my earnest hope, and the hope of the Government, that this programme will be formally ratified by the national bodies representing the various social partners. I believe that the programme will in fact be ratified, because the Irish people, be they farmers, trade unionists, employers, self-employed or unemployed, realise that it is only by working together that we can make progress in overcoming the problems we face.

It is fair to say that once the programme is ratified the real work will begin. The programme itself provides a framework and lists a range of activities and further work to be undertaken with a view to achieving economic growth. The programme also sets down the basic principles that should govern our efforts. Progress is envisaged in four broad areas: creation of a fiscal exchange rate and monetary climate conducive to economic growth; movement towards greater equity and fairness in the tax system; diminishing or removing social inequities in our society and the intensification of practical measures to generate increased job opportunities on a sectoral basis.

The negotiation of the national programme has shown that with the right will, progress can be made in difficult areas. I hope that the social partners will approach the proposed discussions on industrial relations reform in the same constructive manner as they showed in the talks on achieving a national consensus. Action in this area is long overdue.

Over the years there has been much discussion of industrial relations reform with little progress being made. I am heartened by the commitment of the social partners, as expressed in the programme, to the conclusion of discussions with me as soon as possible. I hope that we can now move forward and take action in an area where useful changes and reform can be achieved.

The Programme for National Recovery gives special prominence to the European Community dimension. This reflects the wholehearted public endorsement which our membership of the Community was given a few months ago in the referendum on the ratification of the Single European Act. The programme specially welcomes the proposals of the Commission known as the Delors Plan. The Delors Plan contains proposals for a range of measures which are designed to implement the provisions of the Single European Act relating to economic and social cohesion within the Community. These are of major importance for this country. The intention is that the narrowing of the gap between the standards of different Community regions will be achieved in particular through the structural funds.

The plan proposes a concentration of the structural funds — the European Regional Development Fund, the European Social Fund and the FEOGA Guidance Fund — on those regions whose gross domestic product is less than 75 per cent of the Community average. Ireland as a whole falls within this definition and will, therefore, be one of the regions entitled to benefit.

I feel that the impending re-organisation of our training and manpower services under FÁS — the new body which will take over and integrate the functions of AnCO, the Youth Employment Agency and the National Manpower Service — will undoubtedly help us to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the Delors Plan. In particular, the proposal to increase the rate of ESF assistance will enable us to expand and develop our programmes without further demands on scarce national resources.

In the reformed Social Fund, special priority will be given also to helping the long term unemployed and young persons looking for their first job. These are categories which accord very closely with Irish national priorities.

The Government have decided to move towards a programme basis for application for assistance from the funds. As the Taoiseach indicated on Tuesday, this new approach will represent a learning experience. We will have to work out with the Commission how best to apply it in our circumstances. Although a lot of hard negotiating lies ahead, I am confident that the Government's efforts in the reform of the structural funds will yield results which will be to this country's benefit in future years.

The programme outlines a significant legislative programme in my own area of responsibility as Minister for Labour and details some of the activities which I will be pursuing in the coming months. It provides a framework for pursuing consultations with the social partners on the realistic medium term strategy which underlines both the programme itself and the 1988 Book of Estimates.

The whole notion of an integrated or programme-based approach to problems is a novel development in our public administration practice. Too often the design and implementation of public policies has been restricted by the jealously guarded boundaries of particular administrative bodies. This is understandable. Working within the limits of what exists can often be the quickest way to respond; interdepartmental committees do not always guarantee a fast track for decisionmaking and agencies can very often be forced to act on their own by virtue of the system of Vote accounting.

Nevertheless, many of the problems with which Government now deal are so complex that we must not merely unite the public agencies but also co-ordinate their activities with those of relevant private bodies. This is what building a consensus is all about—and it is a paramount principle in many areas of my Department's work. The area of safety and health at work is a case in point. It is high time we set about launching a unified effort embracing the whole complex of activities and bodies which impinge on the safety, health and welfare of people at work. I am not just speaking of my Department, the legislation and the inspection of work places. I am including the activity of industrial bodies, trade unions, insurance companies and all those with an interest in general health protection or the protection of the environment. A test of the new safety and health authority to be established under the forthcoming safety, health and welfare at work legislation will be the extent to which it can create alliances with groups which have common interests.

The success of the measures taken initially in the 1987 budget and further developed in the Programme for National Recovery and the Book of Estimates, especially those directed to tackling unemployment, will ultimately depend on the understanding and support of the community as a whole, on the responsiveness of the administrative machinery, and especially on the efforts of employers and trade unions at local level.

The only complete and satisfactory solution to unemployment is the creation of jobs. It is clear that new jobs will not materialise unless all the resources of the community are mobilised in a positive and co-ordinated way harnessing the talents, skills, creativity and energy in our community. We know the full scale of the problem. The programme does not begin with starry-eyed aspirations. It opens with a clinical analysis of the extent of the difficulties which have to be confronted. These difficulties are such that they must be tackled now, in the short term, with concerted efforts by all interests. The programme sees these efforts to achieve our full economic and social potential being directed to the better utilisation of our human and natural resources.

Our labour market policies will be directed to achieving higher rates of job creation as distinct from simply preserving existing employment. The programme has identified in some detail where the opportunities for job creation are to be found. We will be monitoring sector by sector performance under the job targets which have been outlined in the programme. In the interests of achieving greater social equity every effort will be made to enhance the job prospects of the unemployed and socially disadvantaged so as to prevent their total exclusion from participating in economic activity.

The problem of widespread unemployment continues to afflict our society. Although registered unemployment has continued to rise over the past year, there are now some positive indications that the rate of increase is at least beginning to stabilise. One encouraging sign in the unemployment statistics over the past year has been the fact that the level of youth unemployment has started to fall.

We now have better information than ever before on the situation of young people in the labour market, and on the characteristics of young people who are likely to encounter protracted unemployment. In particular, we know that young people with the lowest levels of education are most likely to fare badly on the labour market. So far, we have already made headway through the social guarantee programme by setting up systems and procedures to identify and track each and every young person who has left the school system and is eligible for participation in a manpower programme; by making efforts to retain potential early school leavers within the education system through programme interventions like vocational preparation and training programme; and by developing programmes whose assessment procedures, curricula and programme methodology have been shaped to reflect the particular needs of the disadvantaged young persons.

I take this opportunity to underline my commitment to the social guarantee process. It represents the most important step which we have taken so far to reduce inequalities in the youth labour market. The significant improvements already made in identifying vulnerable categories and providing specially tailored services point the way forward for FÁS. The social guarantee is a model of how the resources of the education training and Manpower agencies can be harnessed to address the needs of the least qualified young people and to improve their ability to compete for the jobs that are available.

I am working jointly with the Minister for Education to identify the elements of an action programme to break the cycle of low educational attainment leading to a high risk of unemployment. The vocational preparation and training programmes are examples of a more responsive education system. We are seeking to target these courses more directly to those who would otherwise leave the education system with few or no qualifications. The importance which the Government and the social partners attach to this aspect of the achievement of social equity through fostering the participation of the disadvantaged is reflected in the Programme for National Recovery. We need to broaden the range of occupations covered in the VPT courses and to avoid a concentration of boys and girls on courses which reinforce traditional sex roles. The full range of facilities available through FÁS, ACOT, CERT and VPT to those who do not complete second level education will need to be looked at in a comprehensive way to see how to make the best use of resources.

I have no wish to see the enthusiasm of those engaged in tracking eligible school leavers dampened by an excessive burden of recording or reporting information. My preference is for a system which combines the efficiency and enthusiasm of the present managers of the guarantee with a minimum of bureaucracy. While the introduction of Jobsearch put pressure on the resources available for the social guarantee for part of 1987, I am satisfied that the guarantee will not be downgraded in status. Neither would I want to see flexibility sacrificed in favour of an unduly rigid procedure.

Over 39,000 persons were engaged on various employment and training programmes at the end of last month. The provision of funding for these schemes is a heavy burden on the Exchequer, even with assistance available from the European Social Fund. My priority has been to ensure that as many people as possible can benefit from the opportunities which we are able to make available. Despite the restraint on public expenditure, the volume of activity and the level of participants on the employment and training programmes featured in the 1988 Estimates will be maintained at their 1987 levels.

In the case of the social employment scheme, the additional resources provided in the 1987 budget and the part it has to play in the nationwide Jobsearch programme show that it is regarded as an effective means of assisting unemployed workers to regain a foothold in the labour market.

I would like to take this opportunity to detail to the House some of the tangible benefits which SES projects have brought not only to the participants involved but to local communities throughout the length and breadth of the country.

In the environmental area, the social employment scheme has been used by local authorities and local development bodies to promote the position of tourism in the Irish economy and to explore its potential for job creation.

Take, for example, the local environmental projects sponsored by the Kinsale Chamber of Tourism and the Sneem Development Association. Kinsale Chamber of Tourism put 19 persons to work on a project which was instrumental in the town's success in the 1986 Tidy Towns competition. The Sneem Development Co-Op also attribute their success in the 1987 Tidy Towns Competition to the social employment scheme. Their scheme was approved for 16 workers and the work involved the care of the village greens, church and sports grounds and landscaping and tree planting around the town.

Wexford County Council also availed of SES to develop the Irish Heritage Park in Ferrycarrig, County Wexford. The council employed 20 workers to carry out landscaping and construction work. The park portrays life and events in Ireland through the ages.

Since the opening of the park in June, 1987, over 40,000 people have visited the park. Bord Fáilte have contributed £80,000 towards the reception-visitor centre at the park and hope in the long term to locate a tourist office there permanently.

The achievement of social equity and the protection of the disadvantaged are cornerstones of the Programme for National Recovery. The mobilisation of local community groups to take responsibility at local level for employment and training projects is part and parcel of the great, unified effort called for in the NESC report and the programme.

The voluntary sector has effectively used community-based employment schemes to assist in providing a wide range of back-up services to disadvantaged groups at local level. This has proved very useful at a time when the limited resources of more formalised social services are stretched so thinly.

The Cuan Mhuire Rehabilitation Centre in Limerick, for instance, has sponsored an SES project employing 20 people to perform the daily tasks which contribute to the running of a large residential facility for the rehabilitation of people suffering from alcohol related problems. Efforts are made to find employment for those currently undergoing rehabilitation treatment at the centre.

In Dublin, an SES project is carrying out amenity improvements in Coolock to the gardens and grounds of a residential property used as homes for the handicapped. Ten participants are renovating these houses. The social employment scheme is also making an immense contribution in a wide range of heritage projects. These include renovation work for the National Museum in Daingean. The SES has been used to get skilled craftsmen to undertake restoration work there. In Kilbeggan, another project has helped to realise the full community/amenity potential of Locke's Distillery. The distillery building has been repaired, partly reconstructed and modified and is now an industrial and archaeological museum. Craft shops set up with SES assistance have provided an opportunity for local craftsmen skilled in glass cutting, pottery, embroidery, etching, weaving, and ceramic arts to use facilities at cheap rents. The project employs 14 participants.

I have only cited a few examples but they show how employment schemes are a means of contributing both to better employment prospects and to the welfare of the community.

The gravity of the unemployment situation is heightened by the realisation that the achievement of the ambitious targets in the Programme for National Recovery will not be sufficient to absorb the great majority of those who would like to have a conventional job. In order to ensure the economic and social health of our society in the years to come we need not just the highest possible rate of job creating growth but also the development of new forms of employment and a strengthening of the social fabric by providing as many citizens as possible with an active role in society both as a means of income and self-identity.

It is the duty of Government to see that burdens and gains are equitably shared with particular reference to those at the end of the jobs queue and in greatest need. Special measures are obviously necessary to provide for the needs of the unemployed and those whose jobs are most at risk.

Developing preventive strategies will require nothing less than a recognition that all the instruments and resources of the State should contribute to ensuring that vulnerable groups are not excluded from economic and social opportunities. The significance of the Programme for National Recovery is that it recognises the links between economic performance, job creation, social equity and cohesion. Just as important, the programme is built on the co-operation between employers, Government and trade unions without which social solidarity cannot be achieved.

I hope the Minister will not take offence if I say that I found that contribution just a little tame and just a little disappointing. The gravity of the situation we face might have led us to expect something more than a tourist guide of the social employment schemes of the country. Some of them are admirable, and some of them I had some pleasure in approving and vetting when I was in the Department of Labour. But I think we might have reasonably expected a little more.

In the course of this debate a number of speakers on the Fine Gael benches have been expressing concern about the way in which the balance has been struck between the relative generosity with which those in secure employment have been treated and the less generous way in which those depending on services have been treated. That was put in stark terms by Deputy Gemma Hussey, the party spokesperson on education, when she contributed here yesterday and contrasted bulging classrooms, fewer teachers and higher remuneration for those left at work.

That contrast is particularly starkly outlined in the Estimate for the Department of Labour and in particular, as emerged at Question Time, it is evidenced in the contrasting fortunes of the trainees under various programmes and those whose role it is to administer the training empire. In the course of summer it emerged that trainees under various programmes were to experience slashing cutbacks on their already meagre allowances. I say it emerged, and we learned something more about this at Question Time as well, when the Minister told of his forays to Kerry and out to the Dingle peninsula. But I have to say that there was no excessive enthusiasm on the part of a usually very diligent publicity machine in the Department of Labour to see to it that these changes received much public attention. They are substantial changes — reductions of the order of 30 per cent on allowances that are already meagre in the extreme.

I regard it as rather curious that a Government, who apparently take the view that the expectation of an annual pay increase for those in the public service is so sacrosanct that it cannot even be addressed, should regard it as acceptable to launch such a swingeing attack on the disadvantaged and voiceless sector. The trainees in the community workshops, who are to take reductions of the order of £10 a week and more, do not have an organised trade union movement to speak for them. They do not have union bosses anxious to share a camera with a grinning Taoiseach. They do not have the clout, so they are the ones who lose out.

I said that I find that somewhat surprising but perhaps I should not be surprised because of course there have been other decisions of a similar nature. One of the earlier decisions taken by the Government was the decision to reduce the wages of young people on Teamwork projects by some 15 per cent, and at the same time to reduce the wages of those who are participating in social employment schemes by a similar amount. Again, at Question Time, the Minister indicated that no upward review in these allowances was to be expected. I find it inconceivable that it is regarded as socially just to say to those who are in this very marginal area of society, who are the lowest paid of the low paid, that their lot is to be reductions in allowances, that they can have no expectation of increases. But those who are in secure and permanent employment are to know their fate; their fate is one of a guaranteed increase in each of the years of the plan.

Over the four years or thereabouts that they occupied these benches the party opposite, whenever proposals were put forward curbing public expenditure, denounced those proposals. However, the Government have rather belatedly come to the view that there is no better way, and they have been converted to the message that we have been articulating so consistently and so firmly. But their conversion has been altogether less than complete, because in making a partial conversion they have apparently determined that those who are strong and organised will not be expected to pay, but that those who are voiceless, those who cannot mount resistance, will be left to shoulder the burden. They have correctly taken the view that very substantial cuts in public expenditure are required. But in taking that view they have, almost unbelievably, decided that they will pursue that policy without addressing the question of public service pay which accounts for 43 per cent of net total expenditure. But while prepared to deal with the unions, they are apparently perfectly content to leave aside the interests of those who are disadvantaged — the long term unemployed, striving to obtain a foothold in the world of work; the youngsters in the community work shops, many with literacy and numeracy difficulties. Not for them any prospect of guaranteed pay increases. For them the reality is cutbacks now.

Notwithstanding the disimprovements in conditions that will now apply to so many of the participants in those programmes, those young people who will find themselves on one of them have to count themselves fortunate in comparison with the plight of some of their contemporaries, because it has now emerged that one of the decisions taken by the Government is to exclude those who are not on the live register from participation in training programmes. Effectively what that means is that those who are under 18 years of age will not be able to participate. That decision is quite extraordinary. It is quite mind boggling because every survey that has been taken establishes beyond doubt the closest possible correlation between high levels of unemployment and early school leaving.

I accept — and this was the defence put forward by the Minister for Labour at Question Time — that in the past there has been a concern as to the existence of some of these programmes and a fear that they could, if not properly monitored, serve to entice people out of the education system, which is clearly the exact opposite of what any of us would want to do. Again, in Government, I had certain responsibilities in that area and I introduced various changes and safeguards designed to reduce or eliminate that risk. Quite clearly it is in no one's interest that young people should leave school and search for training programmes. It would be very much better indeed if they decided to remain and to take the various public examinations and sit for the various certificates. But while that might be the ideal, the reality is that large numbers of children will leave at the minimum school leaving age and a number will leave even before that as was so honestly admitted by the Minister for Labour earlier this afternoon.

Those young people need support if they are to break through. Excluding them from participation in training programmes simply means that having been let down by the education system they will now see the training world turn its back on them as well. And for what? So as to allow an opportunity to open up for massaging the unemployment figures. What is involved here is a sideways shuffle. These youngsters are to be excluded from the training opportunities they so badly need in order to leave space into which can be slotted people from the Jobsearch programme. The hope and expectation is that that will produce a more direct effect on the live register figures. That so evident disregard for the young job seekers is to be found as well in the Government's decision to abolish the work experience programme. Since that programme was initiated it has been remarkably successful. It has directly seen tens of thousands of school leavers finding employment and has over the years of its operation smoothed the transition from school to work.

The explanation offered is that this is going to prevent some employers from making windfall gains, to prevent situations where employers needed to take on people anyway but were taking them on and getting paid for it by the State for six months. When we were in Government we introduced a whole series of measures designed to guard against that possibility of abuse. We introduced a quota system so that the number of work experience places that might be available to an employer would be related to his or her total workforce. A number of areas of the economy were excluded where it seemed that the possibility of abuse was particularly live. We introduced a requirement that people could not take on consecutive participants in the work experience programme. If the Minister had real concerns in this area, I would have been happy to see further refinements but that is not what we have. Instead, we have had summary execution. I find that quite objectionable.

No one at this stage is disputing the fact that we have rampant emigration or that we are going to have for the period of the plan continuing high levels of unemployment. The Minister for Labour has accepted that it will get worse before it gets better. In that situation there will be far more applicants coming forward for every vacancy and every employer will be in a position to pick and choose for even the most menial task — in so far as it is proper to talk of any job as being menial but for what in the past might have been thought of as a menial employment opportunity. There will be quite a field from which to select. It will inevitably be the case that the employer will select those with the most going for them, those who can point to a track record, to experience. The result will be that school leavers will be shaken out and that it will be ever harder for them to find their way into the world of work.

Again, one must ask is it possible that is not entirely contrary to what the Government are about? The effect of that would be that more of the vacancies — whatever number they are — would be filled by people coming directly off the live register. Again, the effect would be that much more direct, that much more dramatic, on the figures. The effect would also be that we would be building up a core of young people denied the opportunity to participate in the world of work, these young people in all likelihood finding themselves placed at an impossible disadvantage from which it would take them a great length of time to recover.

I spoke earlier about the allowance paid to participants in the Teamwork and social employment scheme programmes. I must express my disappointment with the schemes themselves. They have been cut back and there is not an opportunity for expansion. In the case of the social employment scheme, what is involved is a very small reduction in the Estimate but in the case of Teamwork it is contemplated that the scheme will be reduced by no less than 15 per cent. Both of these schemes have proved very successful. Both have offered community groups around the country an opportunity to play a part in the battle against unemployment and, at the same time, have offered them an opportunity to improve their environment, to provide themselves and their neighbours with services which otherwise would not be possible. Given the high levels of unemployment and the very real need that exists right across the country, one would have hoped to have seen an expansion of those schemes.

What we are about, clearly, is getting value for money. One thing that we surely should be about is trying to achieve the loudest possible bang for every button. What is involved in these schemes is that the State putting its money on the table produces a volume of activity way out of proportion to the pounds it spends because of the fact that community groups become involved in fund raising or whatever to provide matching and greater funding. The real value of those schemes was most eloquently testified to in this House by Deputy Mattie Brennan who spoke during the Labour Estimates on 27 May last. Let me quote a paragraph:

I welcomed the social scheme when introduced by the then Minister for Labour, Deputy Quinn. I remember going to their launching at Summerhill College in Sligo. We in Sligo and the unions agreed that people should be on the social employment schemes and had no difficulty in finding people to work on those schemes. When one represents a rural area where people and, in particular small farmers are drawning unemployment assistance, one finds these people crying out for a job. The social employment schemes brought these people back to work, not five days a week but three days or three mornings a week. Their children saw them going out to work and this was the only employment available to them in a rural area. That is why I support these schemes.

He then went on to make a very powerful plea for the expansion of those schemes. If we are anxious to get value for money, it seems that an expansion of the social employment schemes and Teamwork would represent just that.

Of course, while I have been arguing for an expansion of the scheme it is, unfortunately, the case that in parts of the country the social employment scheme does not operate. It does not operate, at least, in the public sector with its main potential sponsor, the local authorities. That is so in Dublin where the trade unions have seen fit to impose a veto on the opportunity for long term unemployed to break into the world of work. I have raised this question a number of times in the House, at Question Time and on the Estimates debate and the Minister has been concerned about it. I know he was concerned about it when in Oppostion and has told the House of his efforts to regularise the situation. It really is just unacceptable at this stage that in the capital city, an area where there is a huge number of eligible people, those who have been out of work for a year or more, they are denied the opportunity that is available to their contemporaries and to those in a similar situation right around the rest of the country because trade unions have said no. The same trade unions are operating the scheme with just about every other local authority and doing it quite successfully. It is just intolerable that people should seek to exercise a veto on the opportunities of their fellow citizens for employment.

The question of care and concern for the disadvantaged, particularly disadvantaged young people, also requires me to express some real disappointment about the allocation in the Estimate to deal with the emigrant welfare agency. Again, it seems the response of this Government which pegs the grant at the same level as last year is in contrast with the approach taken by their predecessors. I believe firmly that our Government were uniquely responsive to the concerns of our emigrants. That was shown by the degree of attention paid by Deputy Peter Barry when Minister for Foreign Affairs, by Deputy Quinn when Minister for Labour and in my own role in the Department of Labour and Foreign Affairs. It was easy to show concern but uniquely, our Government put their money where their mouth was. For example, last year's Estimate showed an increase of 61 per cent in the allocation for emigrant welfare services.

Recently the Minister for Labour met with the Federation of Irish Societies and I understand they met also with other members of the Government. I met them, as did my party leader, Deputy Alan Dukes, and Deputy Peter Barry. It will be a real disappointment to them that even in this time of stringency it was not possible to allow even a small increase. I have to say that it may well be that the Minister fought off much worse and that he did not have any enthusiasm from the Department of Finance for even maintaining last year's level. If that is so, I am glad he at least achieved what he did but even a small increase was clearly called for.

We are going to carry their administration costs.

The relationship between this country and Britain is a uniquely complex one. There are so many areas where we share common values — a common commitment to democracy, a common working language and all the ties of history. Because that relationship is so complex and so intimate, the opportunities for squalls and misunderstandings are uniquely prevalent. The Irish community in Britain form a very important part of the ties between the two countries. Many British people see Ireland and form their opinions of Ireland through the Irish community in Britain. The existence of an organisation like the Federation of Irish Societies has been tremendously important to successive Governments in showing the positive face of Ireland. One has only to think, for example, of the hostility which was directed against the Irish community in Britain in the past following atrocities perpetrated by the IRA in Birmingham, at Harrods and so on. Again and again, British people were able to come to terms with the fact that those atrocities had been perpetrated by a tiny minority, who had no substantial support, by looking to their neighbours who were making a contribution to Britain and who were serving their adopted country and their home country well.

I wish to pay tribute to the role which has been played by the Federation of Irish Societies, and more particularly the role of the emigrant welfare services, most notably those in London where the greatest pressure has been. I heard the Minister say across the floor of the House that something may be happening in regard to their administration costs. I do not know the details——

Some of them.

——but if that is the case I would be very glad to hear about it. In the course of some of the contributions, particularly that of Deputy Noonan, attention was drawn to the improbability of identifying areas such as tourism, the marine, the food sector and so on as areas for growth while, at the same time, reducing expenditure on these areas. There seems to be similar evidence in the Department of Labour's Estimates of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Let me give one or two examples.

For example, let us look at the allocation to CERT, the body responsible for educational training in the hotel and catering area. Their allocation in this year's Estimates shows a reduction of 12 per cent. Yet, the authors of the Programme for National Recovery contemplate CERT expanding their training activities so as to cater for an additional 300 trainees. One has to ask whether the authors of these two documents even speak to each other or is there an explanation? Is what is contemplated a reduction in quality of the training programmes so that more people can be sandwiched in so that it will be possible to achieve the expenditure figure while, at the same time, cramming in the required number of trainees to meet the planning commitment? We will have to look to the Minister for an explanation of that.

During Question Time today I raised the question of the allocation to the Irish Management Institute which has been reduced by 41 per cent. Again, look at what the authors of the plan had to say about the importance of management training. In that document they make eloquent statements of intent about the importance which will be placed on training. There will be training grants expenditure which will give greater emphasis to equipping Irish companies with marketing, management, technological and commercial language skills but the body which does that find their allocation cut. The question is, how will they respond? My fear is that they will respond by increasing their charges so as to put their courses out of reach of many small and medium sized companies and return to a position, which was the case some years ago, where the IMI will cater for the high flyers and the elite and will train those who scarcely need training. That would be a most unfortunate development.

It would seem that in a whole series of ways the Estimates for the Department of Labour are a real disappointment and that disappointment is all the greater because of the fact there were other options available. At this stage it is all but universally accepted that in recent years, perhaps because of the availability of European Social Fund moneys, a bloated training empire has developed. That is a matter about which successive Governments have been concerned and it led to the National Employment Training Authority Bill being introduced by the previous Administration and the Labour Services Act which substantially reenacts that Bill from this Government. It seems extraordinary that the administration there remains all but unchanged. They will continue to enjoy liberal access to external trainers who will continue to enjoy very generous remuneration and instead the burden is to be picked up by the most vulnerable and the most at risk.

There are two other areas I wish to refer to and they are the Estimates for development co-operation and the youth service. With regard to the Estimate for development co-operation, I have to say that I am deeply and bitterly disappointed. There are other areas of public expenditure where our approach has been to say it was right to try to make this saving but that we wished it could have gone to another subhead. However, in the case of development co-operation what is contemplated, quite simply, is immoral. This country is listed among the 30 most wealthy countries in the world — we rank either 26th or 27th on the list. We have a responsibility to the poorest nations to offer assistance. Instead, there are massive cutbacks.

For the first time since the programme was launched in the early seventies, the percentage of GNP which we allocate for development co-operation will tumble from 0.25 per cent to 0.18 per cent. That is a massive reduction and one which is altogether unjustified. When we consider that we have mandatory responsibilities from our membership of the United Nations and the European Community, then the apparent cuts in the Estimates are, in fact, much greater because the cuts will, of course, fall only on the discretionary element of our programme. That means that that programme will be altogether devastated. Therefore our response to the needs of some of the poorest countries, such as Lesotho, Zambia, Tanzania, the Sudan, our priority countries among the very poorest countries in the world — in the bottom league, defined by the United Nations as least developed countries — will be altogether inadequate.

Indeed it seems that it was the wish of the Department of Finance to cut our bilateral aid altogether, that they did not achieve that but effectively what was provided for was a stay of execution. Therefore, instead of chopping the aid off in one go, it will be allowed die off over the next couple of years. That is a shameful betrayal of those in need.

The other area about which I am concerned is the provision for youth services. The Estimates contain no such provision whatsoever.

The funding which was available in the past from the Exchequer towards voluntary youth work is gone. As Minister of State responsible in that area I well recall being harassed on a weekly basis by the then Opposition spokesman, Deputy Frank Fahey, seeking higher expenditure in this area. Following publication of the Government's youth policy in the last few days of International Youth Year I recall Deputy Frank Fahey taking space on the leader page of the Irish Independent to complain that it was a policy that had failed young people because of the inadequacy of the funds made available. The Estimates, as published, provide nothing.

There is an expectation that there will be some make-up when it comes to the allocation of funds from the national lottery. That seems to me to be quite inadequate. It is inadequate, first of all, because if we are to believe the interview given to The Irish Press by the Minister of State, Deputy Frank Fahey, the most that youth organisations can look forward to from the national lottery is an allocation that will come close to last year's level. That is very disappointing in an area which has been identified — I thought right across the House — as one for priority expenditure. I might reiterate that it is an area in which the injection of a relatively small amount of money by the Government provides a level of activity way out of proportion to what it would generate if spent in other areas. Every pound the State provides towards the employment of youth workers is matched by youth clubs, scout organisations and the like by way of holding raffles, jumble sales and so on. There is a second reason it is disappointing, that is, that even if the amount they received from the national lottery was as much as last year, that was not what the national lottery was intended for. That represents simple substitution. The national lottery was intended to provide extras in areas identified as important — youth, sport, culture and so on.

I am glad to have an opportunity of speaking in this debate. I listened with interest to what Deputy George Birmingham had to say, much of which impinged on the areas for which I and the Minister for Labour are responsible. He was both constructive and productive in the many points of view he advanced.

As the House and the country generally will be aware, in the short period this Government have been in office, there has been ample evidence of our commitment to face up to the financial and economic realities. Difficult decisions have had to be taken and measures implemented to redress the situation as we found it.

In the past previous Governments did not show the same resolve in tackling our economic difficulties. During the period from 1976 to 1986 the current budget deficit, as a percentage of GNP, grew from 4.4 per cent to an all-time high of 8.5 per cent in 1986 while the national debt increased almost seven-fold in the same period and now stands at £25 billion. That is a very high figure and there is no need for anybody here to lecture on that. We all know it is a very high figure and particularly dangerous to live with. To pay the interest on it alone costs the nation over £2,000 million every year. At present almost the entire yield from PAYE is used in servicing this debt. It is a situation we simply could not allow to continue. If allowed continue it would present a real threat to our independence as a nation.

It will be obvious to everybody that an open economy like ours cannot continue to borrow. If we did, within a very short time, we would reach the point at which we could not borrow any more and then would be unable to repay our current debts. As it is, the cost of servicing the national debt constitutes a serious constraint on progress being made in a number of areas. We must reduce the amount we borrow. Indeed it must be said that a reduction in borrowing is an essential priority. The only way that can be done is by living within our means, by providing a level of public services we can afford.

The 1987 budget showed the country in general that this Government had the will and competence to manage the affairs of the nation effectively. That budget was designed with the specific objectives of progressively reducing the cost of servicing the national debt and the level of borrowing and creating a suitable environment for investment, geared to productive economic activities and enhanced employment opportunities in wealth-generating enterprises.

Within a short period of seven months we have seen quite dramatic and encouraging results on account of the budgetary strategy that has been adopted and which is to be continued. A new sense of direction has been given to our economy. For the first time since 1980 the current budget deficit will be below 7 per cent. Indeed we are extremely hopeful that our target of 6.9 per cent will be attained. By adhering to a strict budgetary discipline and maintaining tight control over Government expenditure, despite our many critics, we have managed to achieve increased economic growth. Revised forecasts of economic growth indicate that the estimate of 1 per cent made at the time of the 1987 budget will be exceeded. At the same time prime interest rates have fallen by 4 per cent and industrial production and exports shown marked improvements.

In September this year we saw the biggest ever monthly surplus of exports over imports, a surplus in excess of £220 million, which was more than double the amount for September 1986. Indeed it is possible that we will have a record £1.5 billion export surplus for 1987.

In 1986 the total Exchequer borrowing requirement was at a high 13.7 per cent of GNP. This year, on account of Government initiatives, the Exchequer borrowing requirement has been lowered to 10.7 per cent of GNP. Therefore it will be seen that we have made a very positive start on the road to national recovery.

It is now generally recognised that the fiscal and economic strategies of this Government are beginning to show signs of success. It is realised that the Government have created the climate in which confidence has been restored, with incentives for investment, opportunities existing for businesses and entrepreneurs to use their skills and expertise to capture more markets at home and abroad. Therefore, the foundations for national recovery have been laid.

Difficult decisions must be taken to ensure our continued economic viability. But it is evident that our people are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices in the short term, to accept a level of services we can afford to provide rather than burden future generations with an enormous debt so that we could live beyond our means at present. In recent days we have seen the successful culmination of important talks with employers, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the farming interests. It is clear that there is a national consensus in support of a medium term plan for economic recovery.

As Deputies will be afforded ample opportunity for discussing the education provision when the Estimates are put before the House following the budget I do not intend to go into specific detail now. I will be afforded an opportunity at Question Time in less than two weeks time of in-depth questioning. Some of the publicity in recent weeks will not have given the public a balanced view of the prospects facing the educational services in 1988 and, indeed, may well have caused unnecessary concern.

In line with the policy adopted by the Government and which has been adhered to in preparing the budget for 1987 and the Estimates for 1988, certain cost-reducing measures have been decided on in the education area, as indeed in all others. In different circumstances these measures would not have been introduced but financial reality stares us in the face. The measures adopted were carefully selected after much consideration in order to achieve the necessary reductions in costs in the fairest and least disruptive way. It would be easy to exaggerate the effect of those measures. Some will choose, for different reasons to represent them as a major assault on the fabric of our education system. That is far from being the case.

It is true that the provision for the education services in 1988 in the Abridged Estimates Volume shows a reduction of £86 million, representing £43 million on current and £43 million on capital expenditure. These figures must be viewed in their correct perspective. I want to place those figures on record because they do have a bearing on the many misconceptions which have arisen in regard to the Education Vote. In 1988 we will be spending £1,129 million on current costs. On the face of it this represents a reduction of 2.8 per cent on the 1987 provision. However, one must be very careful of conclusions based on such simple comparisons. For a purely technical reason we need approximately £37 million less to pay the same salaries in 1988 than we needed in 1987. This occurs because of the date of a week in which salary payments fell due. The matter has been explained to the INTO and they have accepted the explanation. When account is taken of this one factor, the £1,129 million represents a decrease of less than 1 per cent on the 1987 provision, not 2.8 per cent, and a small increase of 0.4 per cent over the outturn is now being projected for 1987.

This £1,129 million is a substantial outlay by any standards. By way of comparison it should be noted that the net Exchequer expenditure on education for non-capital services is approximately 8 per cent higher than that provided in 1986. Also, 16.5 per cent of the net Exchequer expenditure on non-capital services was spent on education services in 1986, while in 1988 this Government have allocated 18 per cent of such expenditure to education services. This means that this year, as last year, £18 out of every £100 which the Exchequer will spend will be spent on education.

Similarly, no less than 6 per cent of GNP will go on education. This is, in fact, a higher percentage of GNP than in any year up to and including 1986. Before 1979 we were spending less than 5 per cent of GNP on education. With the many other demands on the public purse, all of which are being articulated by Ministers and spokespersons, we simply cannot afford to divert a larger slice of our resources to education. It is far better, indeed it is imperative, that we address ourselves to making the best use of the resources which are available.

When one looks at the allocation for 1988 in the light of these factors one can see clearly that this Government, who have done so much in the past in this area, continue to be committed to the provision of the best possible education service for the people, even in these very difficult times.

During the past 20 years we have had an unprecedented expansion in the education system. The population of our schools and colleges reached an all-time record in the present academic year and it is estimated that some 975,000 young people are receiving full-time education. However, due to the falling birth rates which we have experienced in recent years, projections indicate that enrolments in primary schools will decrease by over 100,000 by the year 2000. In the same period total student enrolment in the whole education sector is projected to fall by 150,000.

As stated earlier, in 1988 approximately 18 per cent of the total Exchequer expenditure on non-capital services will be spent in the education sector and 82.8 per cent of this amount — a total of £935 million — will be required to meet salaries and pensions. It is a staggering amount of money but is well spent. It must be realised by everyone that decisions on education expenditure cannot be made in isolation but must be made in association with parallel decisions on demands from other competing social sectors such as health, housing, social welfare, etc. It is necessary to increase the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the education sector in order to achieve necessary savings in education expenditure. Because so much of the expenditure is on salaries, it is in this sector that savings must be made.

A revision has been made in the schedule of average pupil enrolment figures required for the appointment and retention of teachers in national schools. The revision will in most cases raise from 35 to 38 the number of pupils required for each teaching post in a national school and the schedule will not provide specifically for non-teaching principals.

The Minister should be ashamed of herself.

It is estimated that this measure will affect less than half of the total of some 3,300 national schools. The changes which will be made will affect 1,200 out of 3,300 primary schools.

(Interruptions.)

We have had a very orderly debate. I ask Deputy Desmond not to interrupt.

Do the INTO agree?

Many people find it hard to accept changing conditions, particularly when they are perceived as a reduction or diminution in the level of services.

I should like to draw attention to the fact that the new arrangements do not provide for any reduction in the number of remedial posts or in the number of concessionary posts in disadvantaged areas, nor are pupil-teacher ratios in special schools or classes being revised.

Currently the number of eligible pupils using school transport is about 156,000, of whom 86,000 are at post-primary level. Over 39,000 of these benefit under the medical card exemption scheme. In addition, approximately 13,000 pupils who are ineligible for school transport avail themselves of special school transport services in travelling to and from school. The average cost of providing school transport is about £245 for each eligible pupil.

With a view to achieving economies in the school transport system, I am arranging that four pilot projects be undertaken, one in each of the provinces. These will come on stream next September and when they have been properly evaluated we will extend the pilot projects throughout the country over a period of time. It is amazing that these pilot projects have been talked about since 1980 by successive Governments and I am at last doing something about it.

What if they do not work?

The Deputy should not be so pessimistic. Of course they will work. These projects will be carefully monitored and evaluated. A number of other measures, including an increase in fares, will also be taken in 1988 to effect savings in the operational costs of the system.

On a point of order——

Has the Deputy a point of order?

May I ask the Minister——

I am sorry. The Deputy may not ask a question now. This debate will continue in the ordinary way. Doubtless the Deputy will be afforded an opportunity. The Minister is in possession.

It is dodging the issue to come in here and say there will be an increase in school transport costs without saying how much.

Deputy Desmond, I must ask you to desist from interrupting.

The provision in 1988 for the building, equipping and furnishing of national schools is £15 million. This is in line with the determination of the Government to reduce capital spending in order to put the national finances in order.

Dodging again.

We know who dodged responsibility for the past four years.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies, please.

It also reflects the Government's desire that my Department should in 1988 take the opportunity to examine in depth the thrust of this programme in the light of forecasts of a significant fall in enrolments between now and the end of the century. It is already clear that there is a substantial surplus of permanent accommodation in urban areas, particularly in Dublin city and county, and the possibility of using at least some of this, where it can suitably relieve the pressure of space in newer developing schools, must be examined.

Meanwhile, my Department will, despite the present financial difficulties, address itself to the backlog of building projects in the rural schools system. This backlog I inherited when I assumed office. During the budget debate earlier this year I referred to some 40 contracts which had been authorised by the previous Minister to proceed at the earliest possible date in 1987, subject to compliance with the usual rules and procedures. Most of the contracts have now been placed — the ones bequeathed to me — but unfortunately such is the impact of these commitments that they will eat heavily into the 1988 capital provision and, consequently, it is not envisaged that there will be scope during 1988 for any further substantial number of releases to contract for projects involving permanent accommodation.

Second level education was designed to consist of a three-year junior cycle, age 12 to 15 years, followed by a senior cycle, age 15 to 17 years. In the past there were some deviations from this pattern of second level schooling. A number of schools offered junior cycle programmes of four years duration while a relatively small number provided a three year leaving certificate programme.

Clearly, education policy at any level must be seen to be catering equally for all participants and one cannot condone or continue to support a situation where pupils in different schools follow the same curricula but some are given the opportunity to spend six or seven years to complete their second level studies while the majority of pupils complete their studies in the prescribed period. In 1985 schools were informed by the previous Government that all four year junior cycle programmes and three year senior cycle programmes were to be phased out. I agree with this and in future all recognised post-primary schools will be required to complete the prescribed junior and senior cycle programmes in three years and two years respectively.

We have now progressed a long way from the days when the courses being provided in secondary schools were fundamentally different from those provided in vocational schools. Post-primary schools in the free education scheme now have non-selective entry and their programmes cater for pupils with different abilities and aspirations. The differences between the types of schools have become blurred, and this is a good thing. There are now virtually as many secondary schools as vocational schools offering programmes in mechanical drawing and woodwork while there are more secondary schools than vocational schools providing instruction in home economics, commerce and art. Almost all vocational schools provide science and French.

In terms of standards and range of ability of pupils catered for, whatever may have been the case before Fianna Fáil introduced post-primary education for all, nowadays the average post-primary school — whether it be secondary, vocational, community or comprehensive — is catering, thankfully, for a wide range of ability levels. Consequently, I believe the time has come to put all second level schools on the same footing as regards pupil-teacher ratio and this is now being done with the introduction of a common pupil-teacher ratio of 20 to 1 as from the beginning of the 1988-89 school year.

What is the financial effect? This is a ridiculous speech. It is supposed to be an Estimates speech.

This decision will, I believe, remove a source of grievance and invidious comparison and will help to ensure that all pupils will get the same resources in the matter of teacher numbers irrespective of the type of schools their parents choose for them.

Keep galloping, Minister.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies, please.

At present there are a number of secondary schools with more teachers on the payroll than they should have in accordance with existing staff regulations.

(Interruptions.)

The application of a uniform PTR to all second level schools will also produce surplus teachers in other types of schools. However, arrangements are being made to introduce measures to achieve a reduction in the number of these surplus teachers. These measures include changes in the career break scheme, the introduction of a job-sharing scheme, the introduction of redeployment schemes and the application of voluntary redundancy schemes, something many teachers sought for many years.

Are the details worked out yet?

They are being negotiated and the letters will issue in due course.

(Interruptions.)

This is a limited debate and the Minister has 30 minutes. It is particularly disorderly to interrupt. I want no further interruptions; otherwise I shall take stern action.

May I——

If you persist I shall have to ask you to leave the House. It is up to you. You are persistently interrupting and eroding the time of the Minister. That is not good enough.

Neither is this speech.

I will take no further nonsense from any Deputy.

It can hardly be argued that it is in the best interest either of providing a co-ordinated service or of making the best use of scarce resources to have the work of the VECs divided over no less than 38 committees, as it has been up to now. On the other hand, I do not believe that the solution is to abolish the VECs as we know them, as was proposed by the previous Government, or to create unnatural divisions and unmanageable regions. I am confident that the amalgamations, details of which I shall be putting forward shortly, will lead to a more efficient organisation which will preserve all that is best in the vocational education system and will enable it to give of its best in service to the public. I want to put on record the general feeling of Deputies from all parties that the VECs have given a very fine service to the country and which I hope they will continue to give in the restructured arrangements.

More for adult education——

I am coming to that and I hope I will get a cheer. With a view to achieving rapid progress in curriculum reform I have decided to reconstitute the Curriculum and Examinations Board, which was set up on an interim basis in 1984, as a non-statutory advisory council for curriculum assessment.

Shame on you.

Can the Deputy not change his vocabulary? As its immediate task it will have the comprehensive revision of the junior cycle programme in order to facilitate the early introduction into the schools of the new unified examination combining the group and intermediate certificate examinations. The council will also take over responsibility for the recently initiated review of the primary curriculum. It will also advise me on matters relating to curriculum, assessment and standards to be attained in primary and post-primary schools as well as providing advice on the co-ordination and rationalisation of work on curriculum reform carried out by agencies under the aegis of my Department.

I believe the professional standing and the professional competence of teachers generally will be enhanced by the formation of a teachers' council, something the teachers have been seeking for the past decade. I have invited the teachers' unions to meet me to discuss the setting up of such a council and I look forward to meeting their representatives in the near future and to hear what we can mutually agree in this area.

I have again made provision in 1988 for adult literacy and community education. In providing this service, the adult education boards of the VECs have particular regard to the needs of disadvantaged areas. The sum to be made available is £400,000. This is the same as the amount provided in 1987. I am happy, in these difficult times, to be able to keep provision for this service. Incidentally, this is £50,000 more than was provided in 1986 and £250,000 more than was provided in 1985.

The bottom of the barrel.

In the vocational education committees' budget I have also made provision for suitable arrangements for the training centres for travellers' children and for young travellers. That is to be announced in the adult education budget as well. There is total silence on that.

The capital allocation in the Estimates for the provision of post-primary school buildings, furniture and equipment, has been quite substantial over a long period of time. During the past 20 years some 150,000 permanent places were provided at post-primary level. Apart altogether from the present financial constraints, it would be unrealistic, due to declining birth rates and falling enrolments, to sustain funding of school building programmes at the same level as in previous years. In the 1988 Estimates the allocation for post-primary school building and capital grants is £21 million. This will meet all contractual commitments and will provide for all unforeseen contingencies.

No new starts, even where they have been approved?

As I said, in the 1988 Estimates the allocation for post-primary school building and capital grants is £21 million. This will meet all contractual commitments and will provide for unforeseen contingencies.

As stated earlier, in the present year education will account for 18 per cent of Exchequer spending and at 6 per cent of GNP it represents a great proportion of national resources. Given these facts and the overall Government budgetary strategy, it would be absurd to suggest that the education sector should not play its part in achieving the financial targets set by the Government. Moreover, it is reasonable to expect that all levels of the sector should carry their fair share of the burden.

I do not pretend that the reduced provision for the institutions funded through the higher education authorities will not cause some difficulties. I am confident, however, that given the goodwill of the management authorities of these institutions, the difficulties will be overcome. Institutions will have to critically examine every area of spending so that the best possible use will be made of available resources.

And dismiss all their part-time staff.

A reappraisal will have to be made of their operations over the widest possible spectrum and economies effected while, at the same time, preserving the essential aspects of services and maintaining academic standards. Ways will have to be found by which our higher education system can become still more efficient, more productive and more cost effective if we are to meet the challenge presented to us.

With regard to additional productivity, I will be having a study carried out which will look at the savings that could be made or the additional student numbers that could be accommodated at no extra cost by reducing the length of courses where qualifications are awarded by the NCEA. That point was in one of the action plans produced by Deputy Hussey. I have also asked the Higher Education Authority to carry out a similar exercise in their own sector by examining the question of shortening four year degree courses. I will also be presenting proposals to Government on the establishment of an interdepartmental committee representative of the Departments of Education, Finance, Industry and Commerce, Labour, Health and Agriculture to examine the provision of third level places, the rationalisation of third level departments and institutions and the funding of these institutions.

This committee will take into account the two studies I have already referred to and such factors as demographic trends, personnel requirements and the existing number of student places in third level institutions. There is no doubt in my mind that huge changes have taken place in what were regarded up to now as "traditional" academic type institutions. The universitities, NIHEs and other third level institutions have shown that they are opening their windows, their doors, their minds, their hearts and everything to the public. "Campus Ireland" at UCD was a good example and the people of Dublin, and elsewhere, flocked to UCD to see what was on offer and to see how the university had changed. It was a marvellous experience to visit the college during that week. There is no need for any of us to lecture the HEA, and its agencies, on what they should be doing.

And they have lost all their post-gratuate science and engineering grants.

Yesterday I met the heads of all third level institutions and had a most productive meeting. I was very pleased with the outcome. I am very proud of the record of achievement in growth of the VEC colleges, in particular of the RTCs, a growth illustrated by an enrolment of approximately 24,000 in 1986-87 as against 11,000 in 1980-81. Having been closely associated with the regional colleges, I am well aware of the excellent courses provided in them and of their valuable contribution to their regions and, indeed, to the economy. I am particularly glad, therefore, to be in a position to hold the non-pay provision for these colleges at the 1987 level. While the cut of 3 per cent is made in the pay area in order to comply with the Government's policy on numbers, I am satisfied that the agreement arrived at between the Departments of Education and Finance will allow for the implementation of the cutbacks with sufficient flexibility so that the colleges can maintain their existing level of services.

The Minister did not say anything about Castlebar or Thurles.

I am coming to them.

The Minister has three minutes to abolish five RTCs.

In view of the considerable building developments such as new buildings, major extensions and substantial modifications provided in the universities and third level institutions in recent years and because of the establishment of the interdepartmental committee referred to, the Government have decided not to proceed with a range of capital developments to provide additional student places at third level. To proceed would be inappropriate in present financial circumstancs. I should like to point out that we are implementing what the previous Government decided on. A memorandum prepared by that Government allowed for a deferral of all such third level projects.

A sledgehammer.

The previous Government had decided on that before they left office.

Fianna Fáil are in Government now.

All other possible options in relation to additional productivity and student throughput must be fully and carefully considered before any new major building programme is initiated.

The Minister will never be forgiven for this.

Meanwhile the following projects are being deferred: the proposed five new regional technical colleges; phase II of NIHE, Dublin——

Shame on the Minister. Everything is catching up on her.

The previous Government would have done this. Other projects being deferred are the new building at Bishop's Street for the College of Commerce, Rathmines and the College of Marketing, Parnell Square, and the National College of Art and Design extension.

Deputies are ignoring the Chair and I will not stand for that.

The 1988 allocation of £16.795 million for third level projects will be sufficient to meet all existing contractual commitments. In the education area the necessary savings in expenditure have been made in such a way as to shield the disadvantaged to the greatest possible extent. The figures are there for anybody to see.

That is not true.

The Minister has only a short time to conclude and Deputies should be patient.

The Minister should be ashamed of herself.

The Deputy should change his vocabulary from time to time. None of the measures which are planned will reduce educational provision for them or reduce essential education services.

The Minister has certainly changed her vocabulary in the past few weeks.

The Irish education system has served the Irish people well in the past. It has provided a means of transmitting our traditional values and culture; it has contributed to improving the quality of life and has played an important role in the economic and social developments we have experienced in the past. Our past successes are due to the dedication, commitment and calibre of the teaching profession and the ways in which they meet challenges and overcome difficulties. I have no doubt that educational demands and challenges will continue to be with us. I am also sure that, within the limited financial resources available to us, with the support of everybody involved in education and especially with the co-operation of the teaching profession, we will not only be able to meet those new demands and challenges but we will also be able to continue to improve still more the quality of the education being provided in our schools, colleges and universities. I assure the House I will continue to seek ways and means to improve the effectiveness of the education system given the inevitable budgetary constraints.

That was the worst speech by the worst Fianna Fáil Minister for Education in the history of the Dáil.

(Limerick East): And now she runs away.

With her U-turn she has finished up in the ditch.

I am glad I was in the Chamber to listen to the contribution of the Minister for Education. Giving a week of Dáil time to a debate on the Government's Estimates will be a futile exercise and a waste of time unless we can convince the Government to radically alter the way they intend to prepare their budget. I did not hear anything in the contribution by the Minister for Education that convinced me that will happen. I had hoped that in the debate we would consider how we can live, work and survive within the budgetary parameters set down by the Government. I expected the Government would consider the suggestions made and, where appropriate, would alter their strategy accordingly.

In introducing the debate the Taoiseach claimed that his Government had created a new climate and a new belief in the process of Government itself. That is not true and it will not be true unless the Government are prepared to use such debates to help them shape their spending proposals. The Government should be prepared to listen to and act on the constructive advice of Opposition Deputies. It is lamentable that in the contribution of the Minister for Education we had the same sterile and cynical use of Dáil time in an effort to pretend that the cutbacks that affect children and their education and deprived families will not have severe consequences because she says so.

Before I rose I had decided to concentrate on the effects the Government's programme will have on women in our society. In regard to education, it is worth noting that two-thirds of our primary teachers are women. The Minister's proposals to raise class sizes and to cease to allow principals to hold non-teaching positions will be a blow to education and will lead to massive unemployment of women. That the Minister then could compound this by saying that by increasing class sizes, which we had patiently and painfully tried to reduce over the years and that we can do without the administration, planning and direction of principals within our schools, something that was considered one of the great innovations and contributions to education, particularly at primary level, is facile and misleading and is not part of the kind of constructive debate I had hoped we would have this week on the Estimates.

If the Taoiseach and his Government truly wish to have a new climate for our political debates and a new confidence in the political process — which formed part of his speech — then let it be seen that this debate can have some substantial impact on what takes place in the Chamber this week and, as a result within the budget, and on society. Two days ago the Taoiseach in the same speech asked this House to face up to the reality and requirements of our situation with maturity and responsibility. Maturity and responsibility are two-way and the Government, if they wish to have support in the House for the budget, should take account of the analyses offered this week in sincerity and constructively from this side of the House. They should change the provisions within the Book of Estimates which are repugnant to the vast majority of our citizens and which certainly offend against the political obligation resting on all elected Members, especially on the Government, to provide for the care and wellbeing of the most vulnerable sections of society.

The Minister for Education said in her recent contribution that because she says so the fabric and quality of education will not be damaged. In the same way, there is no point in the cant from the other side of the House in this regard. The Taoiseach said that to assist the debate he would like to enunciate the principles by which the Government were guided in deciding on the general pattern of reductions, the need to protect the most vulnerable sections of the community when implementing the necessary policies and the need to ensure fairness between sections of the community. Unless the Taoiseach and his Ministers listen carefully to constructive and costed alternatives based on those two principles offered from this side of the House, it is cant and cynicism and only leads to greater disappointment and disillusionment by the electorate with regard to what we are supposed to be doing in here. We have slipped so far in that estimation that the Government should realise that we cannot afford to slip much further.

The INTO and the ASTI will vote in favour of the plan. It is an extraordinary U-turn.

The Deputy should be allowed make her own case.

I love to help my constituency colleague, we are close friends.

I am sure the Deputy does not require any assistance.

I take the point that my esteemed constituency colleague made. We all want to alleviate the disease of poverty which comes in many forms. It can be seen in the entrenched attitude of elite groups, the haves of society, the vested interests who will vote, either within their own organisations or at a general election, to ensure that their interests are preserved to the detriment of those who have no voice, no power and no choice. They have the wealth, resources and the organisation to do that. There is desperation among those living on the meagre provisions of social welfare who are trapped at the lowest level of expectation and opportunity. Another way in which it makes itself apparent is in the levels of crime and violence and disregard for the normal and acceptable values of codes of behaviour which guard our social order. We, as the elected members of a democracy, have a particular responsibility in that regard and it is one we should not take lightly or treat cynically. Lack of power, drift and desperation are the characteristics of real poverty and, unfortunately they are the only characteristics of many people at that level, especially women and children.

I will not indulge in adversarial politics. I am trying, within the scope and representation we all have in this House, to appeal to the Government, before it is too late, to take heed of this. Estimates can be changed and priorities under subheadings can be altered. Nobody inside or outside the House would accuse the Government of making a U-turn or of being pinned into a corner if, with the maturity and responsibility, to which the Taoiseach alluded, they take seriously the solutions within the rigid system which have been offered to them. We do not have much room for manoeuvre but let us make sure that the deprived and disadvantaged will not bear the burden. There is still time to do this and if we are compassionate and caring and interested in justice we must do it.

Everybody recognised that the whole area of health had to be examined. Plans, budgets and estimates should be about cost effectiveness. Short term solutions could be very wasteful and expensive in the long term. For instance, community health centres are cutting back on smear testing and on screening for breast cancer. There are long delays in getting the results of such tests where, and I am not being dramatic, it is literally a matter of life and death.

Mothers and babies are being discharged so early that some of the most important tests are not being carried out before they leave hospital. Naturally, I know the response will be that there is post-natal treatment. The reality of women's lives in some areas is that if they are asked to come back for treatment or testing a combination of factors can and will prevent it. Women may be struggling and striving on their own. They may suffer from post-natal depression which leaves them with no sense of motivation and, above all, the cost of the bus journey to the hospital will deter them from going back. This is the reality of people's lives in poverty and of the lack of choices offered to them. It is at that level that we must organise these Estimates. In cost effectiveness it can mean that in the years ahead we will have hospitals and clinics filled with people suffering and even dying from diseases that could easily, humanely and rightly have been prevented and which could be diagnosed now. Nobody can tell me that that is budgeting and planning or that they are drawing up a national plan for three months, three years or 30 years based on that type of cutback.

There is huge unemployment of women in that area. The first people to be let go as a result of those and future cutbacks are what are termed part time and temporary workers, terms which hide the discrimination that has existed against women. Because of marriage bars and age limits women have been kept consistently in a temporary capacity even when working at a full professional career. They are left on a temporary basis without the usual features of a career such as holiday pay, sickness pay and pensions. The first and easiest to be dispensed with in employment are that very category. Women are the first on whom the blow falls.

That might be seen as a way to solve our community care problem. If we continue to discriminate against women and lay them off first as part time and temporary workers, will they not become the unpaid voluntary labour who will take up the slack when the elderly are dismissed from hospitals by reason of there being no room, no beds, or no recuperation time and when there will be no community day centres and no transport to take the elderly to day centres? Who has always and ever carried the burden in a voluntary capacity, totally unpaid? Women have. Government after Government have made decisions that community care based on the resources and structures within a caring community is the best way of looking after our elderly, our invalids and our handicapped but we are stripping and dismantling all of those frail structures and laying the onus of care on women who will almost de rigeur be expected not even to ask for anything in return but to ask that they be allowed to make the sacrifice.

That is difficult enough to take but consider the social partners around the table in grand negotiation bringing out national plans with great acclaim. Women are not social partners. I know people will rush in to say that they are represented in their unions, in their management and in Government. They are not. I put it to this Government, and this will apply, too, to any future administration, that we cannot talk about social partners and full representation of interest and ask people equally to bear the burden and the sacrifices that will have to be made as a result of decisions made within the social partner framework without giving a voice and a vote to women around that table. The consequence of doing otherwise is to have in the community the poorest of the poor.

People will switch off at this point and say, "Here she goes again. This is not important. It is all about women", without taking into consideration the total exclusion of women and the burden they have to bear as a result of these decisions. Recently there was a national conference on the future of the health services. I did not have occasion to attend that conference but I heard that there were 26 or 27 speakers, three or four of whom were women and that the panel, which included the Minister for Health, was all male. The compassionate, just and fair alterations that we are asking be made to the budget would be brought about more easily if opposite measures were not introduced in the first place. Here this afternoon I am asking for the responsibility and maturity of the Taoiseach and his Minister that they are asking of the rest of us. I ask them to go back to the Estimates and change them in the light of what has been said here.

The National Social Service Board within a small budget have produced most remarkable results. They were independent and professional and they had trained voluntary workers all over the country in 79 community information centres. In their knowledge of the rights of the people they changed lives for the better to a degree that probably we will never fully appreciate. Now with one fell swoop the NSSB are to be abolished. Socially, from the health point of view and from the point of view of people's development that is a total denial and in economic terms it makes no sense. For instance, 52 per cent of their small budget which they use so well is salary. The Minister has assured us that the staff of the NSSB will be deployed, so 52 per cent at least of that small budget is already taken up. Therefore, for the small sum that is left we are going to dismantle a network of information about people's rights that we all rightly felt proud of.

Who gained most from the services and the professionalism of the NSSB? Women did. I know from training courses that have been run by members of the NSSB that sometimes the numbers taking part were 20 women to one man, because women work voluntarily in the community for historical and social reasons; therefore, this was an opportunity for them to become more skilled in the work they were doing. It has been alleged that the health boards can take up the work the NSSB were doing. If one talks to anyone on any health board today, the first thing one will be told is that not alone will they not be able to take on extra work but that they cannot even cope with the work that they used to do because the cutbacks have been so savage.

For an apparently inexplicable reason and a minute amount of money, we are going to lose the training that helped voluntary organisations to fund raise, to operate holiday play schemes within the community, that helped to train home helps and to set up directories of national voluntary organisations, social service agencies and other public bodies who work to keep the social fabric going. This strategy stops organisations from printing useful booklets, for instance, about visiting old people in the community, it inhibits access to a library of audio visual training aids which voluntary organisations could get for a small fee. That whole framework of caring, voluntary but necessarily skilled help is to be abolished. Where will people turn? Will they have to swell the clinics of TDs, which was the situation before we set up the National Social Service Board? Will we engender in poverty-stricken people the idea that their very entitlements are privileges? Will they have to queue confession-like for hours outside TDs' overcrowded clinics to beg for what the National Social Services Board through its network was giving professionally, skillfully and above all independently?

The Taoiseach in his speech introducing the Estimates gave as a reason for the abolition of the Health Education Bureau:

In some cases they are carrying out tasks in an elaborate environment that could be much more economically performed as normal functions of their parent Department.

The Taoiseach was referring to agencies which the Government intended to abolish. This is the nub of it. In a brave new Republic where we all pay lip service to decentralisation, because of these Estimates, we will see before our very eyes the dismantling of the small progress and efforts made towards decentralisation to allow people have independence in their own communities. We were working slowly towards allowing people have some agencies outside the sphere of Government Departments, which would critically analyse needs and would do research and tell people in an objective professional fashion what they needed to know. The long term effects of this strategy cannot be over-estimated. There is not much money involved here so I would ask the Taoiseach and his Cabinet to reconsider their decision.

I intervene to advise Deputy Barnes that of the time allotted to her she has three minutes left.

In relation to decentralisation the parent Department raised all kinds of difficulties. The last thing a parent does when her children have struggled to become independent is pull them back into the suffocating love and care of the original home. I find this attitude of the Department depressing.

The women in enterprise programme abolished by the Government had been extraordinarily successful. The Government's recognition of the need for positive or affirmative action for women is summed up in the statement made by the Minister, Deputy Reynolds, when he said that it would be patronising to have a separate active enterprise centre that would encourage women into business, because after all they could go out into the wide world and if they are successful and had enough initiative they could survive. I could take the rest of the Dáil time for the week telling Deputy Reynolds why positive action is needed and why women cannot glibly go into the marketplace and take up their banking and IDA grants in the same way as men. First, the greatest number of women go into service industries which is one of the greatest expanding areas of employment and job creation, but it is an industry not served by the IDA. So, where should women turn? Five out of six of the small successful enterprises started in the US in the last five or six years have been started by women.

Perhaps the Deputy will now draw her remarks to a close.

In responding to what has been said in the debate I want the Taoiseach and his Cabinet to consider the people who have not been in this Chamber who were not at the table with the social partners, the people who have to live with the decisions made and implemented in the budget. If Fianna Fáil is a Republican Party, if they care for the shirtless ones let them prove it. Let them have the maturity to return to the table and make sure that the framework we have to guard the poor, the deprived and the vulnerable — and most of our female population fit into that category — is not dismantled. Let them in honesty and maturity in this democracy——

In democracy, the Deputy has gone four minutes over her time and she will have to conclude.

Let the Government heed us and implement out wishes. I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for his indulgence. I will be extraordinarly disillusioned with our system of democracy in this House if the Government fail to do that.

I am glad to have this opportunity to indicate some of the priorities and policies in the marine area. Until March of this year no fewer than nine Departments of State had varying degrees of involvement in marine development. This fragmentation of policy led to the absence of an overall cohesive marine policy and prompted Fianna Fáil, while in Opposition, to put together a blueprint for a new Department to be known as Roinn na Mara. Following his election by the Dáil on 10 March, the Taoiseach announced the establishment of Roinn na Mara and the new Department came officially into being on 19 March. The main marine functions of fishing, shipping, harbours, marine safety, conservation, recreation and amenity aspects are now the responsibility of the new Department.

Now that I have the departmental structure in place, I am getting on with the review of marine policies, the establishment of priorities for action and the preparation of programmes and strategies for the achievement of my departmental objectives. These objectives must, of course, take account of the Government's plan to reduce the volume of public expenditure to a level that our resources can support and sustain but within that constraint I am doing everything possible to divert these resources to the areas where results in the form of job creation and marine economic development can be achieved.

The organisational structure of my Department has been finalised and it follows closely the model suggested in the policy document. In effect there are two commercial development divisions, one concerned with fisheries development while the other is concerned with harbours, both commercial and fishing, shipping policy, including ship and boat building, and maritime safety. The fishery area comprises three branches — sea fisheries, inland and aquaculture.

One might get the impression from comparing the 1987 allocation and the 1988 provision for salaries that there has been a very substantial increase in the numbers of staff in my Department. The impression is, however, misleading. With the exception of a handful of extra staff, the total numbers involved comprise those who were involved in fisheries activities in the former Department of Tourism, Fisheries and Forestry and those employed in the Marine Division of the former Department of Communications. The latter includes the Marine Survey Office which is the technical arm of the Department responsible for all aspects of maritime safety.

The absence of a coherent policy has inhibited the development of inland fisheries and has been for many years the subject of adverse criticism of successive Administrations. In its election programme for fisheries this Government recognised that inland fisheries was a significant growth area which had been relatively neglected in the past. It proposed the development of this area with a view to increasing employment in tourism and angling related activities. I will be recommending that explicit objectives be set for inland fisheries development in Ireland and I will be seeking to have these objectives adopted as Government policy. I believe that these objectives should clearly articulate employment generation, income generation, income distribution, development and conservation of amenity, ownership rationalisation and community involvement as the targets of policy.

I am currently considering proposals for the restructuring of the central and regional fisheries boards with these objectives in mind. In addition to the powers and functions already vested in the fishery boards, I intend that the new board will have a clear mandate in relation to the generation of employment and the development of the resource.

Ireland has a major natural resource in its stock of wild Atlantic salmon but there is considerable evidence that we are not maximising the value of the resource because of the manner in which salmon stocks are exploited. A Salmon Review Group was appointed by the previous administration because of its concern about the conservation of salmon stocks and the level of illegal salmon fishing. When I was appointed Minister for the Marine I extended the terms of reference of the group to include policy objectives as well as the best measures and structures to achieve these goals. This group has completed its report and I received it this week. I will be giving careful consideration to its recommendations in the coming weeks.

In regard to the control of the salmon fishing industry, we had to introduce at the start of this season a system of quotas and tagging to enable an accurate balance to be maintained in the exploitation of the salmon stock. It is no secret that the salmon fishing industry has been chaotically running out of control for the past number of years and further protection is needed to avoid the total wiping out of salmon stocks. One of the recommendations of the review body which I totally support and hope to implement is the system of quotas and tagging to ensure rational exploitation of the salmon stock.

The angling potential of our rivers as a source of leisure for our people and as a means of attracting angling tourists from Britain and mainland Europe has not received the recognition it deserves. I am committed to do all I can within the resources available to me to develop and expand this very valuable resource by means of improving and enhancing stocks, continuing research, co-operating with relevant Government colleagues in monitoring and combating pollution in our rivers and making people more aware of the great potential of this amenity.

As I already indicated, I intend to bring before the Government soon new proposals to strengthen the legislation in the whole area of pollution controls which we will have an opportunity to debate before the end of this session.

I think it is only fair to say that those benefiting from angling developments should make some effort in return to the further development of the resource. The Government have decided to introduce a licence fee for trout and coarse fish angling the proceeds of which will accrue to the fishery boards as additional revenue towards financing their conservation, protection and development work.

I am convinced that a properly planned exploition of our sea fisheries resource offers very significant potential for economic expansion and job creation. These opportunities have been recognised fully by the Government in their recently published economic plan. Over the period of the plan specific policies will be advanced to ensure that the targets set down for sea fishing are achieved.

In the course of the next five years it is envisaged that there will be a total investment in excess of £80 million in essential modernisation of the fleet. Without this level of new investment our fisheries fleet would soon become uncompetitive vis-à-vis its main competitors. Our aim must be to modernise the industry and reduce the overall age structure of the fleet. The new EC structures package, coupled with BIM's revised marine credit plan will, I have no doubt, provide the necessary incentive to our fishermen to invest in the future modernisation of equipment and streamlining of our fleet in an effort to fully compete with the very sophisticated fleets in the Community. This is essential at this time.

It is estimated that in the next five years the total catch will increase from 218,000 to 366,000 tonnes — an increase of two-thirds over that period. It is further anticipated that this level of expansion will generate an increase of about 2,000 full-time jobs and 2,000 part-time jobs in fishing, aquaculture, processing, marketing and ancillary support activities. I am confident that these targets are both realistic and achievable in the current more favourable climate of better fish prices, sharp reductions in fuel oil prices and the increasing demand for fish and increase in consumption of fish, both here and within the Community and worldwide. We have the opportunity of substantially increasing the total value of the catch and the total number in employment, thus increasing the revenue to the economy and increasing the number of jobs in this whole sector of the economy.

The 1988 provision for Bord Iascaigh Mhara is £9.355 million. This includes a capital allocation of £2.096 million to be spent mainly on grants for the purchase of new fishing vessels, the modernisation and improvement of existing vessels and the setting up of mariculture projects. A further £2.385 million is provided for loans by BIM to fishermen for the purchase of a new or secondhand vessels and for vessel improvements. The BIM investment will, as I have already mentioned, be supplemented by EC grants under the Community's structures package and also by bank loans.

In the EC context, we continue to work within the framework of the Common Fisheries Policy. The single most important element of the CFP from our point of view is, of course, the quotas or shares available to the Irish fishing fleet. Negotiations on the 1988 quotas will not take place until December and I will be pressing in these negotiations for the maximum quotas possible so that the industry here may realise its full potential. Earlier this year both the Minister of State, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, and myself went to Brussels to meet with the Commissioner with responsibility for fisheries, Mr. Cardoso e Cunha. During the discussions, which covered a wide range of issues, we raised the question of Irish quotas generally, with specific emphasis on those species of greatest importance to us. As Deputies will be aware, the Commissioner subsequently visited Ireland in July at our invitation and saw the situation at first hand for himself. He was impressed with the rate of development of the industry. He recognised that we had particular problems here which needed to be dealt with and was most willing and co-operative to assist in any way possible within the Common Fisheries Policy to improve the environment for the further development and expansion of our fishing industry.

Deputies will be aware that fishing of the balance of the mackerel quota commenced earlier this week. This is a vital fishery from an Irish point of view and I wish to assure the House that every effort is being made to secure an increase in the mackerel quota by way of exchange with other member states. However, the industry cannot rely entirely on the mackerel fishing alone. In the future new species and new areas for potential will have to be identified and exploited and new fishing efforts must be directed into areas where we have resources which are at present underdeveloped or under-exploited. Overall, working within the constraints of the quota system which we have to operate within the Common Fisheries Policy but recognising that there is a huge potential which is relatively underdeveloped, untapped and unexploited up to now, in a balanced way we can achieve substantial increases in revenue, employment and economic activity in the whole area of our sea fisheries.

Deputies will also be aware of the difficulties facing the authorities from the activities of the so-called "flag of convenience" vessels. I will not tolerate a situation whereby vessels on the Irish register or indeed other register will be allowed to fish when they are making no real contribution to the Irish economy. My Department will continue to pursue this matter in the courts. However, because of the situation I have outlined and the deep resentment I know Irish fishermen feel at the activities of these vessels, I raised this matter specifically at the Council of Fisheries Ministers on 29 September 1987 and received an assurance that the Commission would work towards an early solution to this problem which is causing anxiety within the industry and which is a very clever way taken by some member states to get around the regulations. The activities in this quota hopping flag of convenience mechanism are threatening the very stability of the Common Fisheries Policy. The Commission and the Community must act against this clever means of evading the regulations and I am glad that the Commission and the Council recognised that there was a particular problem here to be dealt with and indicated that some initiatives in that area would be forthcoming shortly.

Regular inspection patrols of our exclusive fishery limits continue to be carried out by the Naval Service in conjunction with the Air Corps to ensure compliance with fishery regulations. To date in 1987, some 69 fishing vessels of mainly Spanish origin have been detained by the Naval Service in the course of inspection patrols for suspected breaches of fishery regulations. Legal proceedings have been or will be instituted for the bulk of these detentions. It is estimated that receipts in the form of fines and forfeitures for fishery offences will exceed £0.5 million in 1988.

I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Naval Service and the Air Corps for their work in sea fishery protection and in ensuring that the various conservation, control and technical measures are complied with.

Aquaculture, more than any other sector of the Irish seafood industry, offers unique opportunities for increasing fish output and exports and has the potential to make a major contribution to income and employment in coastal and island communities. Fish farming, unlike the fishing industry, is not hindered by restrictive EC quotas, conservation measures or stock depletion. Since production takes place under controlled conditions, it is much easier to produce the type and quality of product required by the market place and to achieve continuity of supply.

The pattern internationally is that aquaculture is supplying an increasing share of world seafood landings and consumption. World fish production in 1985 is estimated to have amounted to 84 million tonnes, with about 8.6 million tonnes or 10 per cent of the total coming from aquaculture. Over the next five years, aquaculture's share of total world fish supplies is expected to increase to 14 per cent in volume terms.

In Ireland the contribution of aquaculture to total fish supplies was 5.6 per cent in 1986, which is lower than the world average. The rate of growth in Irish fish farming into the next decade is projected to be much greater than the average elsewhere and by 1991 should account for about 10 per cent of Irish fish supplies in volume terms. Aquaculture tends to concentrate on the production of high valued species which have a strong market demand and for which there are limited supplies from wild fisheries.

The Government are convinced that aquaculture has a very important role to play in developing the economy in maritime areas. It offers opportunities for employment in the more underdeveloped regions of the country. In order that the full potential of aquaculture is achieved it is essential that a coherent policy for this developing industry is put in place. This is a priority for this administration. I am at present finalising my plans for the co-ordination of fish farm development in that context. I hope to be able to indicate our policy and priorities in that area in the very near future.

Given proper management and State support, the industry is capable of rapid expansion over the next five years, resulting in a trebling of output during that period. A total of 14 areas have already been designated for aquaculture development. Designation of a further six areas is under consideration and the designation procedure is about to commence shortly in respect of a further 13 areas.

Approximately 300 licence applications for salmon and shellfish licences are being processed and licences in respect of areas in the designated areas will be issued when I have finalised my plans for fish farm development to which I have already referred.

In establishing the Department of the Marine, the Government had as one of their objectives the bringing of all harbours — commercial and fishery — under one administrative and planning umbrella. The integration of the harbours division of the former Department of Communications and of the fishery harbours division of the former Department of Tourism, Fisheries and Forestry in a single division of Department of the Marine has largely achieved that objective. Arrangements are now in train for the transfer of the major fishery harbour centres of Howth and Dunmore East and of Dún Laoghaire harbour to the Department of the Marine. I am confident that the centralising of control in one agency will facilitate the orderly development of our harbour infrastructure and result in the best use of scarce resources.

Government policy on ports and harbours is contained in the Harbours Acts of 1946 and 1947. Twenty-five harbour authorities, known as scheduled harbours, are governed by the Harbours Acts. Scheduled harbours are generally viewed as a more commercial type of local authority and this is reflected in the legislation.

The basic philosophy underlying Irish ports policy has been that ports should, in principle, be operated as commercial undertakings and be financially self-supporting, with management and development left to local interests with a knowledge of local needs, subject to the Minister's overall control. The policy with regard to harbour grants has been that they should be provided only where improvements are essential to meet well defined commerical needs, and where a harbour authority's own resources are insufficient.

Total capital expenditure on harbours in the five years to 1986 was some £45.4 million. Almost two-thirds of this was provided from Exchequer sources by way of State grants or borrowings from the Local Loans Fund, with the balance coming from commercial borrowing and revenue surpluses. Exchequer grants amounted to £21.7 million — some 48 per cent of total capital expenditure.

The capacity of Irish ports to meet the future needs of the State was last examined in detail in 1975. At that time, it was estimated that capacity would be adequate to cater for the needs of the country to 1980, when throughput was expected to be almost 23 million tonnes. In the event, the throughput in 1980 was 19.4 million tonnes and in 1986 throughput was 22.3 million tonnes. Furthermore, since 1975 additional capacity for roll on-roll off, Ro-Ro and load on-load off, Lo-Lo, traffic has been provided and there have been improvements in capacity at Dublin, Foynes, Cork and Sligo. Thus, it seems likely that overall port capacity is adequate for national needs for the immediate future.

Ports account for almost 80 per cent by volume of the State's external trade, with most of the balance crossing the land frontier. A review of portal traffic for 1986, including traffic at non-scheduled harbours such as Rosslare, Arklow Jetty, Greenore, Dún Laoghaire, Killybegs and Dungarvan, shows that traffic at the four major ports, Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick, accounted for 76.5 per cent of travel by volume through the ports in 1986.

Provision is being made in the 1988 Capital Programme for the payment of State grants totalling £2 million for commercial harbours. A number of reconstruction projects in these harbours are under consideration where the money can be spent to ensure not alone the continued employment of those associated with the ports but to generate additional employment in the areas by assisting growth in these ports. I am reviewing strategies in this area with a view to rational and integrated planning of harbour development to ensure that the resources available are used in a way which will ensure maximum return to the State. I hope to bring proposals for the establishment of an estuarial authority for the Shannon before the Government shortly.

£1.1 million has been allocated to fishery harbour works. Of this amount £0.7 million is being made available for ongoing works on the provision of a much needed boatlift at Killybegs to service the large and very valuable local fishing fleet in which the State has a substantial investment. A further £0.33 million is for works on a harbour development scheme at Greencastle to relieve an acute berthage problem and provide deeper water for the harbour. This will facilitate quicker turnabout and will enable the bigger boats in the fleet to use the port, particularly in the early part of the mackerel season when the fleet is working off the western coast of Scotland.

I believe that harbour development should be viewed within a consistent framework. Harbours can be used for shipping, for tourist traffic, for fishing and for recreational and amenity use. I intend to ensure that in relation to the planning, organisation and development of harbours the options for complimentary and alternative uses of existing harbour facilities are fully pursued.

The Irish merchant fleet has in recent years suffered a decline to a level which is wholly disproportionate to Ireland's position as an island and as a country having plans to become a maritime nation. The factors surrounding this decline are complex, and cannot be attributed to any single cause.

In the aftermath of the liquidation of Irish Shipping Limited it became necessary to undertake a review of the country's strategic shipping needs. The Committee on Strategic Shipping Requirements, established in 1985, in their report concluded that there was an overwhelming case for the provision of incentives for the maintenance and development of the Irish fleet. The committee recommended that the appropriate Departments of State consider what measures could be taken to provide an effective stimulus to existing shipowners and attract new investors to the industry.

A package of incentives, designed to maintain and develop the shipping industry was announced earlier this year. A major component of this was the shipping investment grant scheme. Other fiscal incentives which formed part of the package were introduced under the 1987 Finance Act. These reduce the level of corporation tax payable by shipping companies to 10 per cent and allow such enterprises access to the business expansion scheme.

The Shipping Investments Grants Bill, 1987 is at present before the Dáil. This Bill, as Deputies are aware, is designed to provide a boost to Irish shipowners to expand their fleet capacity and so increase the share of our trade carried in Irish ships.

The grants scheme provides for a maximum allocation of £7.5 million. I expect that some £515,000 will be provided in grant-aid during 1987 while a further £1.03 million subject to budgetary constraints, will be available in the first full year of the scheme's operation in 1988.

I expect that the introduction of the shipping incentives scheme will result in an increase in the size of the Irish fleet, will improve both the balance of payments through increased foreign earnings and import substitution, and the employment prospects for seamen and shore-based personnel.

On the safety front, it will be a primary objective of the Department of the Marine that the highest internationally accepted standards will continue to apply on board Irish ships in relation to their construction, equipment and operation and in relation to the standards of training of the personnel on board. Ireland is a party to all of the principal safety conventions drawn up by the International Maritime Organisation, the specialised agency of the United Nations who are responsible for safety at sea matters. Ireland is also a party to the Memorandum of Understanding on Port State Control, an agreement between 14 maritime nations of Western Europe. The parties to this agreement implemented a rigorous programme of inspection of ships calling to ports in the regions to ensure adherence to the standards of internationally accepted conventions designed to achieve safety at sea and prevent oil pollution. Through my Department, Ireland will give a full commitment to these objectives.

Notwithstanding the very difficult economic circumstances, I look forward to further improvements in marine safety and search and rescue facilities in 1988. A sum of £450,000 has been earmarked for electronic equipment for the coast radio station.

One of the most cost-effective means of reducing the risk of loss of life at sea is the extension of the chain of coast VHF radio stations. VHF portable transmitters are relatively inexpensive and do not require specialist knowledge to operate. They are already carried on almost all fishing vessels and many larger yachts. A 24-hour listening service for emergency calls is provided by VHF radio stations. VHF emergency communications facilities now cover from Rathlin Island to Ballagh Rocks on the north-north east coast, from Slyne Head to the Old Head of Kinsale on the west-south coast and from Wicklow Head to Carlingford Lough on the east coast. I am anxious to complete the chain as quickly as resources permit.

The Kowloon Bridge incident to which I must refer has focused attention on marine pollution from ships. Since I took up office, I concentrated initially on removing the bunker fuel from the ship. This work was carried out comprehensively and undertaken in very difficult conditions. As Deputies will be aware from my reply to parliamentary questions on 20 October 1987, the claim for expenditure by the State arising out of the incident has now been submitted to the insurers. This claim will be pursued vigorously. In the context of the experiences gleaned from the Kowloon Bridge disaster I propose to introduce here and in the Seanad, as a matter of urgency, a number of legislative proposals to strengthen our legislation in the whole area of maritime pollution control and protection. There is legislation already before the Houses to enable us to comply with some international conventions on the control of maritime pollution. It is our intention to press ahead speedily with the introduction of further legislative measures to ensure that all our laws in relation to oil pollution and the control of activities associated with the shipping industry are in line with and up-to-date with the present international situation. This will take our maritime pollution laws and regulations into the 20th century, remedying the defects of almost 20 years neglect in this area.

We have also decided to establish a marine research and technology institute. Given the state of neglect of our maritime resources, our laws in this whole area and the total neglect of the maritime economy since the foundation of the State in the very short time since this Department was established, we have already made a major contribution. We propose to press ahead vigorously in all the areas I have mentioned. In the very near future we hope to be able to say that already the establishment of this new Department of the Marine has had a major impact on economic activity in marine and related industries and activities.

Just over a year ago, in the middle of October of last year, the Progressive Democrats published a policy document on public finances and on the regeneration of the economy generally. We identified the level of public debt in the country, the level of borrowing and the consequential level of taxation as matters that cried out for immediate tackling and the immediate implementation of radically different policies. At the time I pointed out that they were necessary because of the fiscal and economic realities we faced then. I said they had nothing whatever to do with ideology or matters of left or right divisions or anything else, but were dictated by our very economic survival. At the time I pointed out also on several occasions that Governments all over the world of every political hue, who were faced with difficulties, which in most cases were a great deal less severe than those facing us here last year, were implementing these measures. They were seeking to control public expenditure, reduce taxation, lessen the input of the State into the economy generally and they were seeking to privatise a wide range of economic activities in which the State was, in their view, unnecessarily engaged.

That message which we preached at that time had very little impact on political parties at least. As we saw later, it had quite an impact in that general election on the public at large, a significant segment of which quite clearly agreed with us but I remember in this House and outside it being subjected to constant derision and criticism for the views we expressed. The then Government said it was nonsense, that it could not be done, that the cuts were too large and so on, that we were crazy to publish any such programme. The then Opposition, Fianna Fáil, used a limited number of words only but they were generally: Thatcherite, monetarist and all the rest of it.

While this debate takes place the general situation in the country is marginally worse than it was this time last year, not fundamentally worse, similar in its underlying problems but simply a year older and a year deeper in debt and, to that extent, marginally worse off. For that reason it was not without some amusement and satisfaction that I heard the Taoiseach on Tuesday last deliver himself of the following remarks in the course of his introductory speech:

The policies which we have adopted are dictated entirely by the fiscal and economic realities. I wish to state again categorically that they are not being undertaken for any ideological reason or political motives. They are not policies of the left or right, but policies dictated by the sheer necessity of economic survival. All over the world governments with totally different political philosophies are all compelled to follow the same course of action that we are following because they have no alternative but to do so in order to survive.

To that I say Amen. I say, if that is valid in October 1987 — as I believe it is — was it not equally valid in October 1986? Who is fooling whom? Why should something that can be clearly said now with total validity have been derided in the rather extraordinary, almost unanimous, manner in which it was in this House last year?

The people are able to make their own judgments. In making their judgments on what has happened over the past year, inevitably they will have to make judgments about who they can believe in the years to come when it is necessary to assess what people have to say at that stage. I will grant the Government this; they have the grace — it is remarkable, because I thought they would not — to smile broadly when these matters are pointed out, as the two members of the Government opposite me now are, and as the Taoiseach is frequently reduced to doing. They do not have the gall, thank God, to try to argue their way out of it. Indeed, perhaps the one member who does not smile gracefully and keep her down is the head prefect herself who does not agree that things are not as she expressed them last year at all. She simply says: "This year I am the Minister for Education; last year I was not."

I am glad that both the Government and Fine Gael have brought their earlier opposition to Progressive Democrats' policies to a conclusion and begun to put them into practice to some limited extent. It is important for the sake of this country that this process should have begun. It is important that the task be continued until the problem has been solved. My anxiety is that there should be no weakening of resolve, no pandering to particular interest groups, no short-term relaxation to win some temporary popularity, as unfortunately we saw in the publication of this so-called Programme for National Recovery just under a fortnight ago. It is in the interests of every man, woman and child, and especially in the interests of young people, that this task of restoring national financial stability be completed. I say it is especially in the interests of the young because if there is failure it is they who will bear the heaviest burden and pay the most bitter price in terms of having to repay, at some stage, the massive burden of debt that will have accumulated while also being deprived of the employment opportunities that would provide the national wealth from which any payment must come.

I broadly agree with the direction of the various cuts proposed. They are very much on the lines of what the Progressive Democrats had the guts to publish last year when no other party would agree with them. No other party would publish any such programme in advance of an election. It is right, for example, to cut down on capital spending for areas such as new hospitals and new schools. Much as we would desire to see more improvements there is no point in pretending that we can afford them now. We have seen the sorry spectacle of new hospital buildings remaining unopened for years because we cannot afford the staff or other facilities needed to operate them.

In the case of education the experts are already warning about the way in which the numbers of school-age children will fall over the coming years. There is little point in rushing ahead now with new buildings that will become empty shells in a few years. Already in the cities we have seen how the shift of population from one place to another has led to 20 or 30 year old buildings which are less than half full being threatened with closure, while there is pressure to build new schools a mile or two away. Why are children not transported by bus to prevent this waste?

Let us put this question of cutbacks in capital in perspective. There is little danger that these reductions are going to damage our chances of restoring economic growth. If capital spending were the only thing needed for growth we should have been booming for years past because we have had one of the highest proportions of capital spending of any country in the Western world.

And indeed if one notes that the largest reduction is in spending on house improvement grants — a reduction of £55 millions — the scheme has been suspended since earlier this year so the cutback has largely taken place already.

Of course it is current spending that poses the greatest headache. This year's current deficit of £1,200 millions will take years to eliminate. Some commentators criticised the Progressive Democrats' proposals prior to the election because we suggested that it could take up to a decade to achieve this result. The difficulty of the task becomes clear, however, as we look at the prospective 1988 budget which might emerge from the spending Estimates. The current spending total for next year shows a reduction of £177 million or 3 per cent on this year's figure. We know that there are several items which must be added to the spending for next year. There is the cost of the public service pay rise, put at about £70 million. There will be improvements in social welfare payments. Depending on the month from which they operate and the size of the increase, the cost could vary substantially, but it would not be unreasonable to expect that £40 million will be needed under this heading in 1988. There will be the increase in the cost of servicing the higher national debt, which is greatly increased by this year's borrowing. The extra cost here will be affected by interest rates and we all know how unstable financial markets have been in recent times. Clearly we cannot put a precise figure on this item but an extra £100 million or more would seem in prospect. So there is the likely prospect of more than £200 millions being added to next year's spending by budget time.

To meet this there should of course be some rise in tax revenue from existing taxes, but part of this will be needed to meet the commitment to provide tax reliefs of £75 million. There cannot be much rise in tax revenue because of deflation and heavy unemployment. There is also the commitment to raise some revenue by bringing farmers into the PRSI net. It is possible, but unlikely, that on balance the net additions to tax revenue will be sufficient to balance out the cost of the additional spending items, so that the current deficit for next year may possibly be reduced by the £177 million in the Estimates for the spending Departments. But this would still leave a current deficit well in excess of £1 billion. And as the process of further reductions continues it must be assumed that the difficulty in securing further economies will intensify.

That is why we have been critical of the agreement to give a pay rise in each of the next three years to public servants. Supporters of this agreement have pointed to the fact that it represents a smaller rise than was the case with earlier pay rounds. But that misses the point. The Exchequer is in no condition to commit itself to increases. Higher pay for staff means that the task of cutting overall spending by £1 billion or more will lead to much greater cuts in other areas of spending. One area which cannot be cut is the cost of servicing our debt. This in combination with public service pay accounts for about £5 billion of spending next year. All other spending amounts to about £3.5 billion. This means that roughly one-third of all other services — including social welfare — would have to be cut out if the deficit were to be eliminated now.

Naturally nobody is proposing such a drastic action. The point, however, is that if there are to be severe economies for years to come in order to gradually eliminate this current deficit, there is a need to spread the burden as fairly as possible. Our view is that it would have been fairer at the present time to hold public service pay at the present rates. This would not necessarily imply any great hardship because take-home pay would be improved by any reductions in taxation, and indeed the Progressive Democrats have suggested that cutting out PRSI on the first slice of earning would give a tax saving that would be particularly beneficial to lower paid workers.

Similarly if £70 million was not being spent on increased pay it could be used to slow down the rate of redundancy until there are more job opportunities in the private sector, and so ease the unemployment pressures even to a modest extent.

For these reasons we cannot give wholehearted support to the Government's proposals, even though they represent some progress in the right direction. There is scope to make even better use of the limited resources, and we in the Progressive Democrats will continue to advocate reforms to improve the system. In addition to our tax proposals of last year, we recently published a discussion paper outlining some possibilities for reforming the social welfare system. These will be finalised in the light of the contributions made by our members at our party conference and elsewhere. But already it is clear that there is scope for simplifying and revamping the services so that greater support can be made available to those who are genuinely in need, even within the constraints of the existing budget.

The need for fresh thinking and further reforms will continue in the years ahead if we are successfully to resolve the nation's difficulties. We are determined to continue forcing the pace of that reform.

The political misjudgments of the Government are clearly underlined in the case of the education cuts outlined in next year's Estimates. The Progressive Democrats regard this as an area where the bankruptcy of this Government's policies is fully exposed.

We believe as a fundamental principle that whatever areas of the educational budget must suffer, the axe should not fall on the pupil/teacher ratio in primary schools. But look at what is now facing our children and their parents. The Minister for Education has already admitted to the likely loss of up to 1,300 primary teaching jobs. The number could be even greater than this.

This year there are 21,161 primary teachers, receiving average salaries of £15,796. In the Estimates for 1988 the provision for primary teacher salaries comes up £312.3 million. If we take the average salary for this year that means a pay allocation for only 19,770 teachers, a drop of 1,391. To pay those 1,391 teachers this year's average salary next year would cost in the region of £20 million. Should we not do this out of the £70 million that is thrown away in an unnecessary pay increase provided for in the so-called national plan?

What we have boldly stated since the publication of that rather unfortunate document in a rushed fashion on 9 October last is: freeze public sector pay and maintain essential public services to the greatest extent possible. That means retaining the present number of primary teachers and it would be possible without upsetting one iota of the overall Government targets for next year, if the public sector wage plan did not exist.

We keep congratulating ourselves on our educational system. For historical reasons, which need not detain us here, it is geared towards the best 5 per cent to 10 per cent in the system and towards those who will go on to third level education. Is that right? Has society not an equal duty to all children, especially the least able? Why should the least able, in practice be pushed aside in favour of the gifted? Is it any wonder that we end up with so many social problems in a country that is allegedly so well educated? The only part of the educational system that is common to all our children, including the weakest, is the primary sector. That is where we should cut least but it is where the Government are cutting most. I believe that is fundamentally wrong.

The treatment of agriculture in next year's Estimates is another case of crazy and unjust priorities on the part of this Government. What is the sense in cutting the budget for farm research, advice and training by 43 per cent and making only a minute 2 per cent in the central administrative bureaucracy of the Department of Agriculture? We cannot maintain a proper research and advisory service for the country's primary industry if we are going to virtually slash one in every two jobs in this sector. I am not saying there cannot be economies under these headings; indeed, the Progressive Democrats were the first, a year ago, to propose the amalgamation of ACOT and An Foras Talúntais.

When all these cutbacks in field services are effected, if the present unjust proposals stand, what will the civil servants in Agriculture House be left to administer? There are many divisions there, most notoriously the former Land Commission, ostensibly abolished by the previous Government as long ago as 1984 but all of whose staff are still being paid without any functions to perform. Part of the Land Commission was transferred into the Land Classification Office for a period but that, too, has been abolished. We also have the farm development service and the disease eradication section of the Department where I believe greater economies in staff numbers could be made in order to maintain a greater level of field services in the research and advisory areas.

Indeed, the scale of the proposed ACOT-AFT cuts throws up another interesting point, highlighted by me in my recent national conference address. Some of the AFT and ACOT staff who have contacted our party in recent days have made it clear that they would happily accept a pay freeze, even a pay cut, as the price of retaining more jobs in their sectors. This underlines again my contention that public servants know the reality of the public finances. They know full well that if half of Exchequer spending is to go on public sector wages and cuts have to proceed then the quality of their job deteriorates and fewer of their number can be retained. That is why our call for a pay freeze in the public sector so that essential services be maintained, makes sense particularly for those working in that sector.

It is sad to see a repetition in the Department of Agriculture of the errors made earlier this year in the Department of Health where those who are being withdrawn are at the coalface providing the service to those who need it and those who are relatively untouched are the large bureaucracy which nowadays has less and less to administer but which itself is untouchable. That is why even with relatively small savings we are forced to endure huge cuts in the delivery of services, as we had to endure in health in particular over the last six months.

This national programme as it is described, is in effect only a national wage agreement for the public sector. National wage agreements may sometimes be justified — I have known occasions in the past where, on balance, they were probably beneficial but normally they should not be promoted unless there is a very definite reason for them — but this is not one of those times. That is recognised by the fact that the private sector succeeded in extricating themselves and are not bound by this national wage agreement.

If normal criteria applied, the State is perhaps the weakest of all the commercial undertakings which have to meet a pay bill in the current year. It appears to me that buying off confrontation in this way may be very foolish particularly when, in this case, it is clearly proven that a wage increase was bought at the expense of jobs in those sectors. I believe confrontation is likely to arise from the unnecessary threat to jobs and it may well be a greater confrontation than anything that might have arisen in relation to wages.

There is an interesting debate taking place in this House about how a saving of £250,000 might be achieved in the overall Estimates we are discussing in this debate, that is, the Oireachtas and Ministerial Pensions Bill which this party are promoting in Private Members' time. The fact that the saving to the national Exchequer would be only £250,000 tempts some people to suggest that it is largely immaterial in a budget of approximately £8.5 billion. That particular £250,000 which is at issue in the debate is a very important sum because it represents more than just that figure. It represents a challenge to people in this House and to people in the public service generally to face up to what our obligations should be in a properly and equitably run society. It is assumed by almost everyone that in a properly run society wealth should be shared where it is available but from listening to the debate in this House over the past few nights it is clear that in this House there is no such assumption. Equally, where sacrifices are called for and where wealth is not available, that sacrifice should also be shared in a properly run society. There is a feeling in this country today that sacrifices are not shared, and are not seen to be shared.

The Programme for National Recovery is a clear indication of the unwillingness of some relatively privileged sectors not to share sacrifices. Whether we like it or not, we are the centre of attraction in many respects because it is from these benches that a great many lectures are given about the necessity to tighten belts and so on. If there is a glaring anomaly which to 99 per cent of the people seems unjust and unjustifiable, and if it is retained by the deliberate decision of this House at the end of six hours debate on it, then I think the prospects of getting acceptance for the kind of sacrifices that are requested in this Book of Estimates for 1988 will decline greatly. That would sadden me because in my view a general acceptance that there was a sharing of sacrifice here would be enormously beneficial in the solution of the national problems.

The Government should think very deeply about this nominal or symbolic £250,000 because if that anomaly is removed and the Government are seen to agree to its removal then it opens up great possibilities for them in terms of what they will be entitled to ask the people to do. There will, for the first time, be seen to be a sharing of that sacrifice. Under the national plan we have no sharing of it. We have the consumers or recipients of State services, the less well off, being asked to bear more and more of the burden while those who provide those services and those who lecture about those services and make the ultimate decisions bear proportionately less and less of that burden.

It is from something like that that we will get a consensus of a genuine kind, a kind that we need and not the sort of spurious consensus the Taoiseach spoke of when referring to this national plan. The Bill to which I have referred and in respect of which three Members of the Oireachtas have voluntarily made a sacrifice is a more important Bill than the simple £250,000 it deals with. It is the key to a lot of things and the Government should ponder deeply on it between now and next Wednesday because if they are prepared to grasp that nettle and take the lead we have sought to give them, then the rocky path that is ahead of them in the proper administration of the country over the next couple of years will be made much smoother and much easier, not just for them but for everybody. We will achieve for the first time in a long time the beginnings of a genuine feeling of consensus and sharing.

It is an essential part of the Government's strategy to restore confidence in the economy that public sector expenditure and the borrowing necessary to sustain it would be reduced. It is an inevitable consequence of the Government's strategy that some public services will have to be reduced and that those services that remain are provided in the most cost efficient and cost effective way. Only in this manner can we address the economic problems facing our society and ensure that more people are in employment, levels of taxation are reduced and a future with some security for our children is achieved. As the Taoiseach said in his speech to this House last Friday, we are now paying nearly the whole of the revenue collected from PAYE to service the national debt which now averages £28,000 per household. This quite rightly, is unsustainable.

The health services will consume over 17 per cent of the total Exchequer spending in 1988 and it would be naive if not misleading to say that it could escape some spending reductions in these critical times. Some of the agencies have very considerable budgets. For example, the Eastern Health Board budget for 1987 is £183 million, the Southern Health Board is £134 million, St Vincent's Hospital's budget is £20.5 million while the Mater Hospital's is £23.8 and St James's Hospital is £30.5 million. The level of these spending reductions will not, however, be as severe as would appear from a first reading of the Book of Estimates. While the total grant provision for services in 1988, that is £1,096.876 million, shows a reduction of 6 per cent on the provision made for 1987 the overall gross non-capital amount available for services, that is £1,289 million, is a reduction of only 2 per cent on the amount available this year.

I would like to assure the House that my highest priority will be to ensure that the disadvantaged sections of our community will be protected. The provision included for the health services in the Book of Estimates now published reflects both the need to reduce public spending and the necessity to protect the disadvantaged. Despite the difficulties which have been experienced during the year I am glad to be able to say that there have been a number of positive developments. These include the development of radiotherapy facilities at Cork Regional Hospital. In this case Exchequer funding was provided to supplement extensive fundraising at local level. Another development was the opening of a lithotripter unit at the Meath Hospital to crush kidney stones. Other developments included: the opening of a cardiology unit at Galway Regional Hospital and the opening of a new geriatric hospital at Dundalk.

I have also given the go ahead for major developments at Sligo General Hospital and Wexford County Hospital. The tenders for these projects have now been approved and work will commence in the near future. The development of Sligo and Wexford general hospitals in 1988 will represent the completion of the plan for the modernisation of the general hospital programme which was first announced ten years ago. We have since seen a major expansion of the hospital system, an expansion which was absolutely essential if the requirements of a modern health system were to be met.

In 1988, despite the reductions in the Exchequer's capital budget to £41 million, there will be a continuation of the general hospital building programmes in a number of important developments. These include St. James's Mullingar, Our Lady of Lourdes, Drogheda, Ardkeen and Castlebar. The community health programme will include provision for health centres at Athlone, Carlow and Gorey.

The non-capital provision figures take account of the full year effect of the 1987 budget measures. Those measures involved significant reductions in pay and non-pay expenditure and have been implemented throughout this year. The savings made by the health agencies will obviously reflect on their real needs in 1988 and the allocations have taken note of that fact. The agencies are continuing to cut costs and this process will continue up to the end of the year and beyond into 1988. Savings have been made very largely in the institutional sector, particularly in the acute general hospitals, whether they be health board or voluntary hospitals and this has been at my request.

It is at the very least an illusion to think that the spending habits of recent times can be changed without some impact on those major service programmes funded by the Exchequer. All programmes have been closely examined by the Government to establish their usefulness and determine the level of State support that would be proper in 1988. Health cannot be an exception to the critical approach adopted by my colleagues in Government towards public expenditure if only because, as indicated already, the health services consume a significant proportion of overall State spending.

In 1988 the health services will account for about 6.7 per cent of GNP. As I mentioned in my statement on the 1987 Estimates we have seen a big rise in health spending since 1973-74 when it was 5.2 per cent of Gross National Product reaching a peak of 7.9 per cent in 1982. The reasons for these increases are well known. Inflation both in pay and non-pay, new technology and improvements of services are among the main causes. Of course, it is easy to identify the causes but far more difficult to tackle them and put in place curbs on excessive spending. I believe that this Government are attempting to solve the inherent problems faced by any modern State in controlling health services expenditure and the resolution shown this year in cutting out waste will prove to be of continuing benefit to the services and the taxpayers who must fund them.

Debate adjourned.
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