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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Nov 1987

Vol. 374 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - National Board for Curriculum and Assessment Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I want to stress at the outset that our intention in bringing this Bill to the House was certainly not in order to score political points. The whole point of having a statutory board is to take it out of the realm of politics altogether and to give the work of such a board a permanence and status which endures through the terms of office of different Governments and different Ministers. In other words, it stops it being a political football.

Having founded the interim board when I was in Government, I was extremely happy that the present Minister, then on this side of the House, enthusiastically endorsed the opinion that we should have a statutory board. She called frequently for the statutory establishment of the board. In June 1986 she was anxiously inquiring about when the legislation would be introduced. She wanted the legislation before the House to establish the board on a statutory basis. She wanted it to be ready for the autumn of that year and she was also anxious that the board would have the resources it needed. There was a very eloquent urging of myself and the succeeding Minister to bring this Bill to the House.

Picture my satisfaction when in the Fianna Fáil election manifesto in February this year here was another commitment to setting up the curriculum board on a statutory basis. The commitment of Fianna Fáil was there for the world to see. I am glad the Minister is in the House tonight and I hope when making her contribution she will address these questions and not avoid them. I hope we will have direct answers to direct questions. I want to know what has changed since February 1987 to make the Government decide not to have a statutory body. What forces have intervened to change the Minister's mind? Why has the climate changed to the extent that the Minister appears to be afraid to give a legal basis to the work of curriculum reform? Why have the Government reversed everything they have said in this respect, contradicting everything they said and asked for during the past four years, including the election campaign? We have had the complete Uturn in every other area of education and the Minister has frequently remarked on radio and television that she is no longer the same person — that she has somehow changed. I think it is due to the fact that most of these things are to do with money and in Opposition she always refused to admit there was any financial problem for the country, despite having all the facts and figures in front of her. I hasten to make it clear that we are not here talking about financial commitment because the 1988 Estimates already contain a provision for £230,000. It is a mystery as to what has happened to change the Government's mind.

A couple of main points must be made in opening this debate. I underline the basic principle of drawing the educational interest into the work of the on going development of the curriculum in our schools, drawing them in on a permanent statutory basis rather than some impermanent and slightly uncertain basis. That permanent establishment of the right of educational interests to work in close harmoney with the Department and the Minister was and remains a new and welcome development.

I am sorry the Minister has not stopped speaking to her neighbour since I came into the House. It is a little bit unnerving to find she is not listening.

The Deputy should not be so touchy.

The Minister has not stopped talking to the Deputy beside her since I started. It is a pity she has not the politeness to listen.

We are talking about all the things you are saying.

That is good. Now that I have explained it to you, perhaps you will listen.

I am asking the advice of my junior colleague.

I will repeat the first principle in case the Minister did not hear it since she was engaged in conversation.

We heard you well. We are tired of it all.

The principle of drawing in the educational interests on a permanent statutory basis with the Department——

I have just asked him a question on the matter. It is frightfully interesting.

The element of real democracy in education as well as the enrichment of the development process is also a new one for Ireland, though not for other countries. Other countries have welcomed the establishment of different bodies to assist in the work of education. I do not think they have the same fear as this Government have.

There is a third principle, the work of the interim board has been so farreaching and so effective that it overwhelmingly justifies its establishment as a strong, legally-based arm of educational policy-making. That interim board were always assured of their future statutory establishment both by me, by my successor, Deputy Cooney, and by the present Minister up to the moment she took office. I repeat that their work has been so outstanding that it overwhelmingly justifies their establishment as a strong, legally-based arm of educational policy-making.

These three principles come together in this Bill which is before the House this week and next and on which we will see a vote on 11 November. A technical point must be made that in order for this Bill to proceed to Committee and subsequent Stages and to pass into law it would need a majority in this House but the Government would also have to send a money certificate to the House to enable the State to authorise the expenditure required to set up this board. That is, of course, a technicality since there already is money in the Estimates for 1988 for curriculum review. Unfortunately, the Minister by hastily announcing the new advisory board yesterday has shown her unwillingness to listen to Deputies from all parties who are concerned with this question and it shows an apparently increasing fear of independent voices in education. I hope she can explain that position to the House and to the country. It is inexplicable to me.

I appeal again to all parties in this House and to Independents to support this Bill. I hope they will find it possible to take a stand on the main principles which I have set out, the principle of full co-operation between the Department of Education and educational interests in developing and monitoring curriculum and assessment procedures and the principles of permanence and strength which can only be conferred by statutory status so that the voice of educational interests can be heard and cannot be stifled or easily cast aside. The third principle is the endorsement of the work of teachers, parents, management and the energetic committees of the Interim Curriculum and Examinations Board since 1984 in bringing forward serious, well-designed and relevant blueprints for change after an unprecedented degree of national consultation and dialogue, which was never experienced before, in the world of education. Perhaps it would be helpful to take a brief look at the history of this development.

In 1966 there was some movement in the Department of Education and the then Minister was talking about an independent examinations board, but this suggestion was not carried forward. The Coalition Government of 1973-77 prepared a Bill along those lines but it was never enacted, and it did not cover the curriculum. In 1980 the Fianna Fáil Government proposed, in a White Paper, an advisory curriculum council along the lines announced yesterday, but no such council was set up and there was no mention of assessment of examinations. In that same year Fine Gael, in an education policy document called "Education in the Eighties", proposed a curriculum and examinations board on a statutory basis.

The House will recall the turbulent times between 1980 and 1982 when we had various elections. The next step was a very valuable debate in the Seanad during which a previous Minister for Education, Deputy Boland, made a detailed and admirable statement giving his plans for a board. He circulated this document widely, inviting responses. In the following election which was held shortly afterwards, the Coalition Government included the board in their programme as they had done in 1981. Finally, after a year of intense and highly valued work in the Department, in January 1984 an interim Curriculum and Examinations Board was established.

The preparatory work in the Department I recall was of a very high quality and spread over other countries. I was very impressed then, and still am, by the degree of commitment and hard work to the design and structure of the board which existed in the Department. As I said, the board was established on an interim basis in January 1984 with the commitment that plans would go ahead to establish the board by statute. An interim board was established in advance of the statutory board so that the statutory board could benefit from the work and experience in action of the first board, as well as from the advice they would have to give.

Preparation went ahead when the Government had seen the work being done. The Minister's immediate predecessor published a Bill last November — and this is largely the Bill we have before the House today. The Minister welcomed that Bill when she was in Opposition. She was very enthusiastic that a Bill had at last appeared. Perhaps she will tell us why she changed her mind. I found it heartening, as did the board, that Fianna Fáil decided to give a clear commitment in their election manifesto to set up the board on a statutory basis.

In 1984 the country was very lucky in terms of the chairperson and members of the interim board. The degree of energy and skill which marked their work from the first day was remarkable. The principle they established of continuing dialogue right across the country on each subject in order to have the willing co-operation of the people operating the system was remarkable and in the education world was unprecedented. We have a prolific volume of documents from the board, various discussion documents culminating in the main report on issues and structures in education called "In our Schools" which followed other reports. "In our Schools" broadly covered their conclusions of what they felt should now be done. This document was subtitled "A framework for Curriculum and Assessment".

Another document they issued in September 1985 was "Primary Education: A Curriculum and Examinations Board Discussion Paper". That was a solid document which examined what needed to be done in the area of primary education and was drawn up by a primary review committee set up by the board, an expert committee with members from the teaching profession, management, education research and so on. This was a very useful document. I am mentioning this because this afternoon I was surprised to hear the Minister decrying the work of the board in the area of primary education, and basically accusing them of doing nothing.

The documents the board brought out constitute a most up to the minute collection of educational signposts which will bring us into the nineties and beyond. A very small staff serviced the board most ably. These documents were a measure of the motivation and commitment of the members who felt they were involved in something historic and worthwhile, something that would shape Ireland's education system in a new exciting way. Because they were happy with the assurances of the present Minister when in Opposition, they felt that this board would not be a political football but would be established on a statutory basis — perhaps with different personnel because nobody expects a board to have the same personnel all the time on a statutory basis — as part of our legal system backing and working with the Department.

We all hope their major recommendations will be carried into legislation, particularly the new unified junior cycle system of assessment that needs to be put in place at the earliest opportunity. The Minister has appointed a different board to carry on the same work and fortunately that board still has some of the former members on it and will be able to continue the work of the old board. The board did a great deal of work on the primary education system, arts in education, language in the curriculum, science and technology and so on. This was the result of work done by different committees set up by the board which called on the experience of people inside and outside the education system.

When I am praising the board I am not in any way criticising the officers in the Department of Education. It was always a source of amazement and admiration to me that the staff of the Department could achieve so much with rapidly expanding schools and the increasing student population which put enormous pressure on them. The demands placed on the inspectorate in particular by the expansion of the examination system meant they were able to do less central, pivotal work — the monitoring, inspection and advice to schools, the nuts and bolts of the education system. The inspectorate produced work on the curriculum in the past and proposed certain initiatives for change, all of which was available to the Curriculum and Examinations Board through the departmental advisers. Of course, the inspectorate as civil servants and with responsibility for the maintenance and delivery of the service are, naturally, constrained from bringing forward ideas for public debate. Therefore, the board was a complementary and co-operative unit with the Department. The Department could now interact in a clearly structured and legally established way with all education interests. Their position as advisers to the board guaranteed that interaction.

There were some misgivings inside and outside the Department about such a new and radical departure. Some officials in the Department felt a little worried about what they perceived to be a dilution of what was hitherto absolute power over curriculum development. In any large institution, particularly in a Government Department, there is always a natural inbuilt resistance to change. There is an inbuilt resistance to change in this House and in many other establishments. However, it is the Minister's duty to be innovative, to do what is right and bring as many people as possible with her. Resistance was found among some of the bodies who were asked to participate in the board. They were suspicious of being seen to be involved with Governments they might not always agree with but most of those misgivings have been put to rest because of the superb working of the board and the effective nature of its structures.

I should like to deal with some details of the Bill. I look forward to what will be a major debate on education that will accompany our consideration of the Bill. I have had correspondence from various groups about the Bill, particularly the Teachers' Union of Ireland. That group put forward suggestions for consideration on Committee Stage. I should like to emphasise that we are anxious to hear from the Minister if the Government will provide the certificate to enable the Bill to proceed. In the absence of Government consent to sending that certificate, we will be voting at the end of Second Stage on the principles of the Bill. It is unfortunate, if one is to judge by yesterday's hasty announcement which was intended to pre-empt this debate, that little attention will be paid to the opinion of the House on whether a statutory board should be established. It is important that Members on this side indicate what they feel should be done and what they think of the attitude of the Minister in pre-empting decisions of the House.

Members may have reservations about the composition of the proposed board. It is important to point out that when the interim board was being established if the Minister did not have a range of appointments to make to that board there would have been very few women represented on it. The different bodies were not to be aware that other groups were nominating men and we might have had a board with one or two women at most. That would have been quite unacceptable and for that reason it is extremely important for the Minister to have leeway to appoint people to make up that imbalance and any geographical or specialist imbalances.

The functions of the proposed board include curriculum and asessment. The two are inextricably linked. The group which controls examinations governs the curriculum and I am sure the House will agree with that. One of the reasons why there was a long period of delay in setting up the board — since 1966 — was the failure to recognise the crucial and central idea of the link between assessment and curriculum. The areas to which the board will be required to have regard are dealt with in the Bill and the House should examine them carefully. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the requirement for ensuring favourable international comparability in our educational standards. That is very relevant to a modern education system and particularly at a time when we are drawing closer in every respect to other European countries. Our education system is held in high regard internationally and it is important that we should stand up favourably to international comparisons. Written into the Bill is a provision that the board must have regard to the elimination of any barriers to education on the grounds of sex. I will not labour that point because I believe the Minister has a commitment in that area and I am sure she will agree with the provision. It is unfortunate that, arising out of the Minister's decision yesterday, we will not have such a provision written into our laws. That is a great shame.

We ask the board to have regard to the development of a capacity for critical thought in pupils. We consider that to be very important because one of the most fundamental elements in a modern education system is that it should develop the independent critical faculties of young people in an age when they are being bombarded from all sides by strong commercially-based interests in the media. We must emphasise the essential importance of a critical thought capacity. It is unfortunate we do not have time to go into the section in any great detail but I hope we will have an opportunity of discussing it on Committee Stage.

Section 3 (4) requires the board to cost its proposals. If the board spent time devising plans without costing them they would be planning in a vacuum. The Minister made some play about that earlier today. It is in the interests of all those who will benefit from the work of the board that such a provision should be included in the Bill. I do not think any Member should underestimate the importance of the Bill which could open up a new era in education. In my view we will be asked to vote confidence in the education system. We will be asked to show a respect for and confidence in all those who work within the system by giving them formal links with the Department of Education. In the Bill a range of bodies have been designated to have a right of close relationship with the board and they range from the industrial to the academic and the trade union movement. Those bodies will have the right to make submissions, to be consulted and receive copies of the board's publications. That element of co-operation and involvement of the wider society in education is long overdue.

The object of setting up a curriculum and assessement board on a statutory basis is to bring together the world of so many different curriculum initiatives across the country, to translate them into action. Its design is the result of Irish and international research. It brings the responsibilities of curriculum and assessment together in a major new arm of educational progress designed to work with and not against the Department of Education and the Minister because the Minister, in the final analysis, must hold the responsibility for the people. In my view the setting up of this board will be the best educational practice and other countries will look to Ireland in the future, as they did in the past, to see our initiative in action.

There is no reason, at a time of economic difficulty, to call a halt to the proliferation of ideas for the promulgation of excellence. Many people believe — and I am one of them — that there is a strong wish in the educational world to move ahead, to welcome new ideas and to put them to work even if extra demands are put on teachers, students, parents and management in order to do so. Teachers have risen to the challenge of change in recent years in undertaking new experiments and curriculum projects in classrooms across the country. Parents have generously responded in helping to raise funds and communities and employers have shown a willingness to encourage and facilitate such initiatives. The establishment of this board on a statutory basis is a recognition of all that good work and all the involvement outside the Department in curriculum reform.

I am more than slightly worried about one of the elements the Minister mentioned in a press release announcing the establishment of a new board, a new council for curriculum and assessment, to be known as the National Curriculum Council. I understand that the Minister has given that body three years to fulfil their mandate. I find that a very alarming aspect — apart from all the other alarming aspects — of yesterday's announcement. What happens after three years? Does education stop then? Does society stop evolving? The refusal to give a statutory and permanent foundation to the work of educational reform, thereby guaranteeing its continuation, is a major change in direction and a change for the worse. It is, as I said at the outset, totally inexplicable but I hope the Minister will explain why she has taken this approach and why that main central initiative could not be carried through. She called for such an initiative which her Government undertook to fulfil in their election manifesto. I hope the Minister can give a clear, succinct answer as to why she has this problem about setting up a statutory body.

It is so important as well to encourage the people who met all the committees of the interim board. They travelled the country and gave days, weeks and months to consultations and meetings in pursuit of their remit to undertake curriculum reform. We have seen in their actions scores of educationalists fired with the commitment to working for their country. To stop that impetus, to deny them the next phase in that development would be to depress the genuine desire to serve which the interim board tackled so strenuously and effectively.

I hope it is not too late to conclude with a renewal appeal to the Government and the Minister to take up this impetus, to tap into this great well of goodwill which is there for the asking by establishing the board on a statutory basis, giving it the backing of Dáil Éireann and the confidence of the country. To do so, even at this late stage, would gain the applause — not only of all sides of the House — but of the country, in particular the world of education which so wholeheartedly welcomed the opportunity to involve itself in what it saw as great national work. In the final analysis, we are talking about a commitment to our unique, inspiring young population who depend on this House to put political considerations aside in their interest.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I have great pleasure in responding to this Bill. However, before doing so I want to explode a few myths which have been enunciated here tonight and indeed in the past.

I wish to refer to Deputy Hussey's remarks that the announcement was made hastily yesterday. The choice of the continuance of the present chairperson of the board, Dr. Walsh, and the vice chairperson, Sister Eileen Doyle, was conveyed to both these very estimable people many weeks ago, which can be verified by anyone who wishes to do so. I quite deliberately did not want to rush into setting up the board out of deference to the work of the interim board, the members of which I had in my office in the Department of Education some weeks ago to thank them in a formal — although convivial — way for the amount of work which they had done in a voluntary capacity over the past number of years. I join Deputy Hussey in paying tribute to the work of the interim board. However, it should be remembered that it was an interim board set up by the Minister with numerous appointees, including many of hers, and representations of all the constituent bodies. I listened to Deputy Hussey's incredible explanation as to why she saw fit to have so many of her own nominees on the board. She said that nobody else would appoint a woman, which I thought a little odd. I also had a nominee who is a woman.

The board is far from being a political football. Because I thought so highly of the existing chairperson and vice chairperson, chief executive and secretariat, I saw no need to disturb the serene regime they had established. I wished to draw and build upon that security so that people would be relieved at the continuance of their work. I wish to pay tribute to Deputy Hussey who established the interim board.

The new curriculum council will advise me directly. They will operate outside the Department in the original offices in which they have been sited for the period of their interim tenureship. The chairperson, vice chairperson, chief executive and secretariat are the same as heretofore. I was extremely pleased to draw on their years of experience and acumen which they had so carefully built up. Indeed, as a Minister, I was very lucky to be able to draw on their combined experience.

The Bill which Deputy Hussey introduced tonight was presented to the then Minister for Education, Deputy Patrick Cooney, in May 1986. Strangely, nine months after that, the Bill had yet to be formally presented to Dáil Éireann. I freely admit that I called several times for its introduction but I now know that there were great divisions within the Fine Gael Party on whether it should be a statutory Bill. Among the objectors were Deputy Dukes, Deputy John Bruton and Deputy Cooney who were not happy with many of the terms of reference of the Bill, its scope and its inherent complexities. I have an intuition — I will not go any further than that — that the then Minister was quite relaxed about the need to introduce the Bill. The relaxation is apparent because of the number of months which went by with no sign of it being introduced. Indeed it was a case of festina lente. Of course, it will be all different when we go through the lobbies, if we get to that point.

I was very pleased yesterday to implement my decision to reconstitute the ad hoc Curriculum and Assessment Board as a council for curriculum and assessment. It will be a non-statutory body with responsibility to advise me on matters relating to the school curriculum and on pupil assessment. Before taking this decision, I made a very careful study of the developing situation and I was moved by a number of considerations which seemed to me to have major significance. Chief of these is the fact that the main responsibility of the Council for Curriculum and Assessment will be of an advisory nature.

At the core of the council's activities will be its responsibilities for advising the Minister for Education on all matters relating to the school curriculum — its aims, its content, its scope, and any other relevant issues; and for advising the Minister on methods of examining or otherwise assessing pupil performance and standards. I note that these are also the primary functions proposed in this Bill for the National Board for Curriculum and Assessment. To that extent I agree with the provisions of the Bill.

There is no need to enshrine advisory functions in legislation. These functions will not be enhanced in any way by putting them into a statute. An Act of the Oireachtas will not confer any greater powers for advising upon the curriculum council. Neither will the council's powers to advise the Minister be reduced in any way by failing to confer them by statute. Once terms of reference for a body such as a curriculum council are laid down in an Act of the Oireachtas, they become quite inflexible. They cannot be adjusted in any way except by a resolution of each House of the Oireachtas.

The curriculum council which I intend to establish on a non-statutory basis will have more flexible terms of reference.

I agree with many of the points made by Deputy Hussey. Education must be constantly updated to keep pace with the changing needs of society and the economy particularly in the area of new technology. The resources must be adjusted to meet the numbers explosion which is working its way through the system and creating short to medium-term pressures as the pupils move through the various levels.

The curriculum can be more effectively tuned to cater for changing needs if the curriculum council's terms of reference are non-statutory and can be simply revised. It will be a simple matter to adjust the focus of the council's operations to concentrate on whatever particular aspects of the curriculum need reform at a particular time and the council will be able to respond immediately to advise on the necessary curriculum revision. On the other hand, if the advisory body is constrained by statute from undertaking a particular task, any revision in its terms of reference takes time.

There is a gap in the organisation of curriculum development work which this Bill does nothing to rectify. Curriculum development work is currently being carried out by a number of diverse groups or bodies — the local curriculum development units, the Educational Research Centre at St. Patrick's Training College, the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee and Trinity College, to name but a few. This very worthwhile and extremely innovative work has been going on for a number of years. When the interim board was set up I read screaming headlines to the effect that there would be no more inter certs. I went into a classroom the following week and was told there would never be examinations again. Throughout my four years in Opposition I fault the heady expectations which such hype created in peoples' minds.

On reflection, it is often necessary for such development movements to come upfront and to be over the top in some respects, to seem to be pushing out the frontiers in a perhaps outrageous way. It is only when that type of movement emerges that we start thinking seriously about what should be done. Although it has nothing to do with the subject, in the feminist movement we needed the shock waves created by those who perhaps seemed outrageous in their activities. It made us think about the issues and made us prepare for a debate about them.

For a number of years there has certainly been steady work done in the area of education, in the Department and in the sub-agencies. When I was teaching I was honoured, when my school was picked to do a research curricula project. I was the teacher in charge of the project. All of this was very exciting and it went on all around the country. We need a careful analysis of what has been done and a careful analysis of what we can now do in a realistic fashion. When I came into the Department one of the first things I asked for was a compilation of all of the work of the various agencies involved in curricula reform. I had already read the many documents which the interim board had compiled. All of this work was very necessary.

After my years of teaching I have no doubt that there is a constant need for teachers to change, for subject content to change and for syllabi to change. Everyone in the education system should be aware that there is an ever-changing world outside the school walls and that there is a need to cope with the changes. People in education should realise that young persons going through the system should not be judged on grades alone in a formal examinations system. Young people should know that they are individually unique. The true educationist works with his educational material but has a true regard for the character development and self-esteem of the pupils. I remain committed to the idea that this precept must be the guiding light for education.

One of the things I have greatly missed since I came into public life in a formal way is the daily contact with people in their teens. When one goes into the classroom each day one can see how teenagers change physically and mentally day-by-day. They constantly demand change from the teacher, they demand responses and challenges. The teacher constantly gives of himself but gains a lot in return. Teaching is an enormous responsibility. Nobody realises the work of the teacher except another teacher.

There is a gap in the organisation of curriculum development work which this Bill does nothing to rectify. There is no co-ordinating body to ensure that the work of the various organisations is rationalised. One of the exciting developments in the setting up of the curriculum council is that this is what they will be doing.

It is my intention that all curriculum development work which is funded by the State will be co-ordinated and integrated, and I will be encouraging a high degree of co-operation between the various groups engaged in curriculum development work. I intend that the curriculum council will perform a co-ordinating role in this area.

The only executive functions proposed in this Bill are the conduct of assessments and the awarding of certificates. The conduct of the certificate examinations is carried out by the examination branch of my Department which is situated in Athlone. The administration of the examinations is a complex business by reason of the scale of the operation, and my Department's record down the years for efficient conduct and the integrity of the conduct of the examinations is an excellent one.

It is no secret that the ad hoc interim Curriculum and Examinations Board was in no great hurry and they expressed it quite clearly, to take over the conduct of the examinations. Indeed, my understanding of the situation was that the ad hoc board would not have raised any great objection had the function of conducting examinations been removed from the proposed Bill.

The curriculum council will not have executive responsibility for running the examinations. This does not mean that curriculum development will be carried on in isolation, without regard to matching adjustments in the methods of assessment. The closer links between the council and my Department mean that the fundamental three-way interaction between curriculum design, assessment, and classroom performance will mesh with each other more smoothly than the provisions of this Bill permit.

As mentioned earlier, before taking any decision on the restructuring of curriculum development work, I made a careful assessment of the developing situation taking into consideration the work of the ad hoc Curriculum and Examinations board and the provisions proposed in the National Board for Curriculum and Assessment Bill.

I found that under the Bill the Curriculum and Assessment Board would be permitted to plan and to announce elaborate proposals for curriculum reform without any regard for the practicalities or the resources necessary even though they had to cost each item, as Deputy Hussey mentioned. The costing was one matter but the proposals could be produced independently without any real practical consideration of how they would be put into effect. One of the proposals made by the ad hoc board would have cost as much as £2 million to implement. Under the Bill, which allows the board to publish their proposals, the board would be in a position to raise public expectations, a modus operandi which they were good at and which, in hindsight, was right at that point but would not be right in the operations of a statutory body. In particular the board would raise the expectations of pupils, parents and teachers of costly developments in the curriculum with which few might disagree. The less happy task of explaining to the country why these very costly reforms could not be put into effect would be left to the Minister of the day. The terms of this Bill would also permit the board to concentrate on their own perceived priorities rather than those of the Minister.

Any Minister of any Department — every Government Department is highly important in its own specialist area — would have to take his or her role very seriously into account with regard to priorities especially in such an important area of life as education. Welcome as the proposals of an advisory nature which will be put to me will be — the board will be reporting to me directly at three-monthly intervals — I would have enough confidence in myself as Minister, and I know any Minister for Education who has the interests of education at heart, being able to translate the advice which the council would give into practical realities. It is quite another matter, particularly in the very sensitive area of education, to have a statutory body making decisions on what is a very onerous but a very challenging task and I would be very dubious about that.

In anticipation of the Bill I understand that the ad hoc board had set up an elaborate committee structure, a committee structure with which Deputy Bruton and Deputy Dukes found exception, a network of sub-committees reporting to co-ordinating committees which in turn would report to the board. The operation of the board's advisory process would emanate through this committee system to the board itself and thence to the Minister and the Minister's advisers. Recommendations to be reconsidered would have to move back and forward through the same route and that would be impractical and unreal. The abnegation of responsibility by the Minister, which it would be eventually perceived as, would become more and more apparent. In my view a much simpler committee structure, easily adaptable since it will not be part of statutory provisions, will be able to address itself straightaway to priority tasks.

It may be unfair to remark, but I must put it on record, that almost four years after the establishment of the ad hoc Curriculum and Examinations Board we have had a number of thoughful publications, which Deputy Hussey has referred to, but as far as I am aware no single item of reform has been carried out in any classroom in any town or county as a result of the board's recommendations. They were thoughtful publications one of which I have adopted, the setting up of the primary review group, and I have also taken on board the unified system. If there has been curriculum development in any classroom it is as a result of initiatives which have been taken by some of the various sub-agencies of the Department. It seems that the reasons for the lack of results in the classroom were either that the recommendations were too general in nature, the detail being still some way down the road, or were too costly to implement.

What I intend to achieve through the curriculum council is a more practical method of operation which will structure reform and identify those stages which are capable of being put into effect immediately. I am far from being convinced that there is no room for further improvement in the efficiency and the effectiveness of the education service, within the limits of existing resources. The main Opposition party have agreed with the exact amount allocated in the Estimates for each Government Department even though they take issue with the way in which it will be allocated. The economic implications of some of the recommendations are quite horrendous. In the explanatory and financial memorandum which accompanied the Bill in 1986 it is stated that the additional operational costs of the board would be £580,000, in addition to the £230,000 which was allocated to the board in that year.

On a point of order——

Deputy ÓhUigínn, on a point of order.

May I ask if this is a published document or is it taken from State papers and if so can the House be given a reference?

The Deputy knows that is not a point of order.

We are talking about financial considerations. In the explanatory and financial memorandum which accompanied the Bill in 1986 — I would imagine it would be available in the Dáil Library — it is stated that the additional operational costs of the board in 1986 would be £500,000, in addition to the £230,000 already allocated. I raise this point because I was greatly struck by the statement of the leader of the Opposition at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis in which he stated very clearly that his party agree with the total amount of money allocated but they do not agree with the cuts. Therefore, that money would have to be costed and it would have to be stated where it would come from.

In the final analysis, responsibility for the maintenance of the nation's education standards must lie with the Minister and the Department of Education. Decisions about the curriculum and about assessment procedures will benefit from the setting up of the curriculum council, and I see it as an important segment of education strategy. Its recommendations will be a major influencing factor in formulating and adjusting the overall education plan.

The council itself will be constituted from various education interests — teachers, management, parents, departmental advisers, people from the business world and the various unions. I was glad to be able to ask for a nomination of a member from the Irish Federation of University Teachers, a board which have not received recognition in the previous Minister's plan.

Have they accepted?

It would be very difficult for them to have accepted because the letter is going out today. With all the best will in the world they could not get the letter before tomorrow even with the Fergal Quinn hyped-up system.

The people on the council will be chosen for their expertise and the background and experience they will bring to bear on the issues before them. I hope that the various bodies that the curriculum council will be inviting to join them in their very exciting work will accept. Not all invitations are accepted but we are hopeful that the various constituent bodies who have expressed such an interest will accept. If some do not it will be a pity and I am asking them tonight to accept.

I see the establishment of the non-statutory curriculum council as a major step towards restoring the momentum to curriculum reform but, at the same time, guiding reform work into a structured and effective operating system.

Deputy Hussey raised the matter of the three year term of office. She was alarmed at what she saw as the short term of office of the council. The constituent bodies may reappoint the personnel after their three years. This was particularly put in because two or three of the constituent bodies that I had intended asking to join the council said that from time to time they may need to replace members for one reason or another. So, after three years the constituent bodies will be reinvited to make their nominations and the Minister of the day will always have the right to reappoint or freshly appoint a chairperson and vice-chairperson.

I am glad we have had the opportunity to have a very rational and so far very level-headed debate on curriculum reform. I repeat my satisfaction that the people appointed by Deputy Hussey to the interim board have accepted our nomination to the curriculum council. I again pay tribute to the enormous work of the chairperson and vice-chairperson and all the members of the various committees and sub-committees working over the last three years. Their documents live after them and will be a source of inspiration in the real work which must now begin.

Tombstones.

The two items that immediately start are the primary review and the gradual and radical restructuring which will take place with the unified system of the group and intermediate certificates. That will have to be very quick because the changes in curricula and syllabi will have to find their way into text books and various other publications. There is little time to be lost.

Curriculum reform is the most important area of activity within any education system. In a country like ours which has such a huge number of vibrant, lively people, we must constantly adapt and change. It is a tendency to which I always subscribed in my years in education. I still subscribe to it and I am pleased to be identified with this so early in my career as Minister. I wish the curriculum council every success in its endeavours.

I have listened very carefully to both speeches. Unfortunately, I was not in the House for the beginning of Deputy Hussey's speech but I listened to it on my monitor and I must say, candidly and honestly, that Deputy Hussey made a very much better case for the setting up of the Curriculum and Examinations Board on a statutory basis than the Minister made for her arrangment as announced this morning.

I agree with the Minister that a good deal of curricular work was already carried on before the setting up of the interim board and there has been a great deal of innovation in a number of schools. But this is very uneven and a number of schools were very much left out and that is not good enough. It is not the way we should be going in the future. That is why, among other reasons, I find myself coming down totally on the side of the Bill brought into the House this evening by Deputy Hussey and why I pledge the support of my party to the main thrust of this Bill. Having taught until last March, it is my experience that one of the most valuable innovations in education in the last decade was the setting up of that interim examination and curriculum board. I would like publicly to pay tribute to Deputy Hussey who, as Minister for Education had the courage and initiative to set up that board. By doing that she began very valuable work that we now must continue. I would also like to pay tribute to the chairman and the members of that interim board for the valuable work that they did, to all those who worked on course committees and other sub-committees since the interim board's inception. They have done sterling work for Irish education. They have stimulated discussion and debate. They have pointed the way in which Irish education must go in the future if Ireland and her young people are to achieve their full potential in the years ahead. They have put the cornerstone of future educational development and progress firmly in place. I would argue now that the next logical step is to set up that board on a statutory basis. Unless that is done a great deal of valuable work done to date stands to be lost. We cannot afford to throw away that work with a convivial meeting or by paying tributes here in the House. That is not enough. The greatest tribute we can pay to the good work done by that interim board is to agree here and now to keep that board, or a successor to it, on a permanent basis and set it up as a statutory body. If we do that we will have guaranteed that the future of Irish education is in good hands. That is why we in the Progressive Democrats give this Bill our total support.

I hope we will have the good sense not alone to pass the Bill but also to recognise that if this Bill becomes law we will have to be prepared to put forward the wherewithal to ensure that it is effective. The Minister is right when she implies that unless this is done this is all useless discussion. There is no point in having a very good, intelligent and effective board making recommendations to us unless we are prepared to vote the necessary moneys to implement in our schools their most urgent recommendations.

Where does the Deputy propose we get the money?

I will come to that later. There was a time when other Ministers talked about investment in education and thought that education was worth investing in. We need to bring back a little more of that spirit into our discussions. We need to have clear priorities as to where very essential investment must now be made. Unless we do that in terms of curriculum development we stand to have a system of education that will be dear at any price, because we stand to have schools out of date and out of tune and out of step with the rest of society and below the standard of other schools in other countries with which our young people have to compete. We have to face that and be honest about it.

But your policy is to reduce investment in education.

I am prepared to detend the point that not alone must we be prepared to do that but we must make the necessary resources available to guarantee that the recommendations of the board will be implemented in the classrooms as speedily and as effectively as possible. This is something that must be borne in mind if we are to continue to make arbitrary decisions on pupil-teacher ratios. There is no point in promoting worthwhile ideas if we are not prepared to put them into practice and to provide accordingly.

This raises the other necessary question of the amount of money that will have to be provided for in-service courses for teachers and ongoing in-service training if we are going to take on board curriculum development and the updating and upgrading of curricular work in our schools. This is an issue which we also must face. We cannot hide behind the Minister for Finance on every issue. We must have a policy on education and that policy cannot be ultimately, finally and definitely dictated by the Minister for Finance. We must have people holding the portfolio of education whose first commitment is to education. After that, they will have to argue around the Cabinet table as to how their proposals are to be funded. I want them to approach it from the point of view of education, not solely from that of finance.

There is a great need for radical and sustained work on curriculum development. That comes sharply into focus when we remind ourselves that a child entering the school system next September will be only 16 years of age when this century expires, when we face the 21st century. That is the time scale about which we are talking and that is the kind of future for which our children must be prepared. Our schools must gear themselves to prepare our children to live in a world vastly changed and changing at a rate never before experienced in human history. To do this adequately, our schools themselves must be open to change and provision must be made to ensure that our course content and our teaching methods are relevant to the times in which we live and that our educational standards are on a par with standards prevailing in other developed countries, as they always have been in the past. We owe it to past generations and educationalists to ensure that that position holds for the future. We were very proud, and still are, of our system of education, of our schools and of our teachers but we must continue to be so proud. We must introduce, and very quickly, very necessary and very urgently needed reform at curricular level.

The major agent for change is a dynamic curriculum and examinations board permanently placed and interacting effectively with the Minister, the Department and all those bodies and persons actively involved in the business of education. To those who would ask why we should have a permanent body, let me make just one point arising out of my own experience. I was teaching in schools when the new curriculum for primary schools was introduced in 1971. It was a most exciting, a most dynamic new development from which we believed great things would come. Indeed, many great things did come from it but, unfortunately, the aspirations, aims and objectives of those who devised that new curriculum were never fully met. Once it was put in place, everybody assumed that it would take on a life of its own and would not have to be serviced at times, monitored at times and evaluated at times.

That work simply was not carried out, so some extremely good ideas were lost for want of nurturing that curriculum, measuring its progress, assessing students at different times in their journey through the primary schools. That work was not carried out on a level at which it ought to have been carried out. That is my experience of what can happen when you make a sporadic effort to introduce curriculum reform and do not monitor and nurture it fully. That is my main argument for the retention of an ongoing curriculum board which would bring in their changes and would be the force behind the Minister and behind the education authorities, ensuring that the changes recommended by them and accepted in this House and elsewhere not alone are put in place in the schools but worked dynamically there and that they go on to achieve results.

We must be prepared to make this investment in our education system, to make it now and to make an ongoing sustained investment in curriculum development which will take our children and our schools into the world of the future into which neither the Minister nor I will enter if the natural rule of life takes its course. Moreover, we must recognise fully the absolute importance of education for the future of our country. The world of yesterday, where great natural resources were great national assets and from which Ireland seemed to be permanently excluded is now gone, luckily enough. Ireland was then in a state of permanent disadvantage. However, in the world of tomorrow, the world of information technology, we can compete on an equal basis, if we keep our system of education up to date. I am quoting now from an article in a recent copy of The Economist:

Education will be in the next century the most important service industry in the world.

Unless we are prepared to invest in that industry, our most guaranteed national resource will go to waste.

In the past we could not compete in terms of coal, steel, iron and all the assets that made other nations wealthy but now, when we are told by people who analyse these things, that education will be the great resource in the next century, we will be able to compete on an equal footing with people from all other countries if we do our work properly and gear our system to the future. If we fail to make the necessary investment now, we stand to lose out once again as we lost out in the last century and the previous one. If we do that, we shall all stand condemned. The single most important investment that needs to be made now is not in buildings or anything else but in curriculum development. Equally important is assessment.

Here I come to what was said by the Minister, who did not seem to think that an assessment examination was as relevant to curriculum work as direct curriculum work itself. I would argue otherwise. If you ask anybody who has acted in the business of education, any teacher, why it is that he or she is not in a position to introduce more music, art, education of that type into the school timetable, the teacher will tell you immediately:

We cannot do that because the parents are breathing down the backs of our necks. They want to get results, they want to get points, they want to get their children to college.

If you ask any parent why it is that they are prepared to put this amount of pressure on their children, they will tell you immediately that they have very little option, that their children who perhaps in the last generation could go confidently out into the world with a leaving certificate and hope to get a job in a bank, the Civil Service or a range of other areas, have no hope now. Where a leaving certificate was a very good attainment for the children in the last generation, the parents are now going for third level attainment. That is the only hope that they see of their children getting jobs in this or any other country. Because of that, parents are prepared to subject their young children to the inordinate pressure that is now being brought to bear on young people at school.

Ask any ordinary citizen making his or her way to work in the morning at the time when young people are going to school and they will tell you that they see very, very small children struggling to school with great bags of books on their backs and with worried expressions on their faces. They ask why that burden is being put on children at this early age and, on thinking about it, they say that such children are already caught up in the treadmill of the points system. Ask anybody who deals with children, with the large number who come out of our schools every year who have not mastered the basic skills of reading or writing, what in their opinion has gone wrong, why it is that we do not get around to teaching all our children the vary basic skills of reading, writing and arithmetic. Inevitably they will list one of their reasons as being that the schools are too preoccupied with pushing children to achieving the number of points which are necessary to enter college that they do not have the time to deal with those children whose abilities and aspirations are otherwise.

I would like to point out to this House that the points system has taken a stranglehold of our education system and it determines largely what subjects are taught in our schools and how. Until we free our education system of this stranglehold there will never be curriculum reform, no innovation in our schools or changes in what we teach our children in schools and how we teach them. The Minister seemed to indicate in her speech that there will be less emphasis put on assessment following the setting up of this new body. You cannot have one without the other. There must be changes in the examination system and we must put alternative types of examination in place.

We must put in place a system which will measure not alone what our children will learn for entry to university but which will also measure what they will learn for other purposes such as how to deal with the problems of ordinary daily life. Until we put such a system in place no development of the curriculum will take place. We will still have the same teaching methods and the same subjects taught in the same old way. I suggest that the Minister should reappraise her views on assessment. It is absolutely essential that a system of assessment be introduced in our schools as soon as possible.

In regard to course content, I am not going to list the subjects which should be taught in our schools and how they should be taught or a list of subjects which should not be taught in our schools. I would like to make one point in relation to the teaching of languages. For years the Confederation of Irish Industry and other bodies have been saying that we do not place enough emphasis on the teaching of continental languages. It has been pointed out time and again that we do not place enough emphasis on the teaching of German. Despite the fact that in this country there are 180 German companies who are sponsored by the IDA and despite the fact that we send our Ministers and Ministers of State abroad to cities such as Cologne to market our products, we tolerate the fact that only 4 per cent of our students have taken German as a Leaving Certificate subject this year. That would seem to suggest we are not very forward looking in relation to the teaching of modern languages. Despite the great work which has been done by curriculum bodies it has not affected or influenced what is happening in our schools. It is an absolute scandal especially when we consider the unemployment problem in this country and the future which is facing our children, that we tolerate the fact that so few of our children study German.

You do not need a statutory body to make that change.

We need something more than what is in place at present.

No, you do not.

You promised it in your election manifesto.

Of course, what was promised in the election manifesto is another story.

You do not need a statutory body to increase the level of German which is being taught in our schools.

It is quite clear from what has been said in this House today there will be no changes of any kind in the future and in the nineties we will still have the thirties approach to education.

We will have changes all right.

Talking about the teaching of languages in general, it has to be said that an inordinate amount of time has been set aside for the teaching of the Irish language. Judging from those who have left school, it appears as if a great deal of that time has been misspent. I would like to make the point which I tried to make as Gaeilge nuair a bhí mé ag caint leis an Aire inniú. This is a time when there are so many devices, machines, tapes and films of every kind to facilitate the learning of a second langauge in a very short time. Large numbers of people learn a second language such as French in a very short time in their own free time. It is amazing that despite all the expertise which we have now available at our finger tips and despite modern technology, we still spend so much time teaching the Irish language and tolerating the poor results. That is one area that needs to be looked at now. If the setting up of a statutory body accelerates work in that direction, well and good. A great deal more emphasis in our education system has to be placed on oral competence as opposed to achieving written results. As communications are becoming more advanced we must teach our children communications skills.

There is a need for urgent curriculum reform and we cannot wait any longer for it. It must not happen in a haphazard kind of way. Our system of education has served us extremely well in the past and at this time it is serving large numbers of our children extremely well. Of course, they are the ones who will go on to third level education and achieve good results. What about those who leave school without any qualifications and who have not even mastered the very basic skills of reading and writing? Their numbers increase each year and we cannot tolerate a system of education which continues in this way. We must introduce the necessary reforms and we must introduce them now.

I agree with the general thrust of Deputy Hussey's Bill but there are a number of recommendations, which I think will improve the Bill, which I will make on Committee Stage. There are one or two points which I would like to make now. The interim board talked a great deal about a continuum between the senior section of primary school and the junior section of post-primary school but I do not see any reference to it in this Bill. The transition from primary to post-primary school is one which presents a number of difficulties to a number of children. We should recognise that fact and provision must be made in this Bill to allow for it. A number of children never seem to make that transition properly.

I would like to see some kind of assessment taking place during the course of the primary school years. A number of children face difficulties when they are not prepared even in the most fundamental way for the transition from primary to post-primary school. I am not advocating a return to the old primary certificate system as that was far too narrow and far too rigid but when we threw out that system we should have put some other system in its place. We did not do that and I think we will have to do it now. It will have to be done within the provisions of this Bill so that children at their different stages of development through school will undergo a certain assessment suitable for the age and stage at which they are, so that they will not pass on from one age to another without having attained any level of achievement. Because we have tolerated that position for far too long we have had a number of failures in the 12 to 15 age group. The time to remedy that is now and the vehicle for so doing is this Bill.

While I have one or two amendments in mind for Committee Stage I have no hesitation whatsoever in giving this Bill and what it seeks to achieve my total support.

Mr. Deenihan rose.

The Deputy is now in possession and I am asking him to move the adjournment.

Debate adjourned.
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