asked the Minister for Justice if he will report on the recent nationwide search for arms undertaken by the Garda and the Army.
10.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Arms Search.
4.
asked the Minister for Justice his views on whether four separate cargoes of arms arrived in the country during 1985 and 1986; and if he will give a report on the success of the recent searches in detecting and seizing their illegal arms.
17.
asked the Minister for Justice the selection criteria used by the Garda in the recent raids-searches on the homes of individuals; if individuals with no political affiliations whatever were raided; the number of homes involved; the items seized; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
24.
asked the Minister for Justice if the senior Garda representatives who went to France to cooperate with the French authorities and to investigate the circumstances surrounding the capture of the Eksund have given him a report of their visit; whether or not they were informed where the ship was loaded with the illegal cargo; the person or persons who supplied them; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
38.
asked the Minister for Justice the progress to date in the nationwide security search, and in particular whether any finds of information have been disclosed that would indicate that shipments of arms and ammunition similar to those found on the Eksund were illegally brought into this country; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
39.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will outline the results of the Army-Garda security and search operation for the last two weeks; the amount of arms, ammunition and other material found; the number of people arrested, charged, or otherwise detained; the number of warrants issued and homes searched; whether he considers that the results to date justify the efforts involved; the plans he has for continuing the operation; the other measures he proposes to take in respect of the arms shipments allegedly landed in this country; if he will comment on the allegations made by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties about the operation; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 4, 10, 17 and 24 and Priority Questions Nos. 38 and 39 together.
As I informed the House on 24 November last, there are reasons for believing that four separate cargoes of arms and ammunition may have been landed here during 1985 and 1986.
On the basis of the evaluation and advice of the Garda authorities in relation to this matter, the Government requested the Garda with Army support, to launch a major search on the basis that there is an obligation on the State to establish whether those arms were in fact landed here and if so, to seize them.
I do not intend to disclose the information sought in Question No. 24. It has never been the practice to disclose information received on a confidential basis from intelligence sources. However, as regards the search itself, I wish to report to the House as follows:
The search, which took place in all Garda Divisions, commenced on 23 November 1987. In the following 10-day period, a total of 50,132 houses were searched, 7,573 under warrant and 42,559 without warrant. In addition, 164 cruisers on the River Shannon and 775 caravans were searched without warrant.
33 people were arrested. Five were charged with offences and one is receiving medical attention in hospital. Files in respect of 11 of those released without charge have been submitted to the Law Officers for decisions as to whether prosecutions should be initiated.
The following arms and munitions were found during the course of the search up to 3 December: 22 rifles; 15 revolvers; 13 shotguns; 4,312 cartridges; 2,277 bullets; 43 detonators; 2 timing devices; 1 cwt of suspected explosive mix; 7 gas cylinders of the type used in mortar bombs; 25 cylinder bombs packed with suspected explosive mix.
In addition, a number of documents were seized. These are currently being evaluated and it is possible that in some instances they will provide the basis of criminal charges.
Additionally, four bunkers and sixteen dug-outs were located.
I am informed by the Garda authorities that houses were searched, where necessary, under warrants issued in accordance with authority provided by section 29 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939. I do not propose to go into the details of the search or the criteria used by the Garda in deciding where to search. These are operational Garda matters. The grounds on which a warrant for searching may issue are set out clearly in the Act. As I mentioned, criminal charges may arise out of possession of certain documents seized in the search. I am aware also of a press report that one of the persons whose home was searched is considering court proceedings on the matter. In the circumstances, comment in any detail by me in relation to these matters would be inappropriate.
The Garda authorities have informed me that a great deal of goodwill was encountered by the search teams. I am aware too of course that this was not the universal response — I have seen press references to the disquiet of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, for example. A certain amount of resentment was inevitable and indeed understandable. Indeed when I announced the search, I knew that some degree of inconvenience was to be expected but I asked for forebearance and I was confident that most people would understand what was being done and why it was necessary. The Garda Complaints Board, the statutory authority for resolving complaints about Garda behaviour, can be resorted to by anyone who feels aggrieved by anything that was done in the course of this search.
The Garda authorities have informed me that the search for the arms will continue. On the basis of information and intelligence acquired during the search so far, further searches on a selective basis may be necessary for some time yet. I do not propose to say anything more on the subject beyond that.
Is the nationwide search now officially over? Will the Minister agree, in view of the find that took place as a result of this major search, that the information supplied in relation to two boatloads of arms landing in this country in 1985 and 1986 containing a similar amount of arms to that contained in the Eksund, was not accurate? Will the Minister also agree that it was a mistake for him to go on television and radio half an hour after the search began implying that the security of the State was under threat when there is no evidence to show that it was? Would the Minister not also agree that this was really a beat the bushes exercise in co-operation with the RUC to flush out people in hiding along the Border and that it was done under the guise of a national search for arms and ammunition that was supposed to have been imported into this country in 1985 and 1986? With the permission of the Chair I will come back to the Minister again.
In reply to the first part of the Deputy's question, I would refer him to the final part of my answer where I said that the Garda authorities had informed me that the search for the arms would continue and that on the basis of the information and intelligence acquired during the search so far, further searches on a selective basis may be necessary for some time yet. That more than adequately covers the first part of the Deputy's question.
Deputy Taylor.
I beg your pardon, I have a number of other supplementaries from Deputy Barrett with which I would like to deal. With regard to the suggestion that because the search failed to uncover anything like the amount of arms and ammunition that was on board the Eksund it showed that the information we have with regard to other cargoes was incorrect, I must deny that. To draw an inference of that nature would probably be a mistake. The fact that nothing like the Eksund cargo has been discovered at this stage of the search is not conclusive proof of anything. What the search revealed, particularly the bunkers, obviously indicates a state of readiness to receive a cargo such as that on board the Eksund, but it is too early at this stage to draw firm conclusions on the question whether the previous four cargoes were successfully landed here.
With regard to the third part of Deputy Barrett's question about the statement by me on the morning of the search, I have more than adequately dealt with that insinuation which was raised in the House a couple of weeks ago and I do not intend to waste the time of the House in repeating it.
The Deputy also asked if this was a beat the bush exercise in conjunction with the RUC. From the beginning I made very clear why the Government on the advice of the Garda decided that such a search should take place. I regret the insinuation, by way of innuendo, in Deputy Barrett's question. It is totally unhelpful, unjustified, untrue and mischievous.
Deputy Mervyn Taylor.
On a point of order, I would remind the Ceann Comhairle that three of these five questions are in the names of Progressive Democrat Deputies.
I am calling first Members who tabled questions appertaining to this subject matter which are questions nominated for priority. Those Deputies are Deputy Seán Barrett and Deputy Mervyn Taylor.
Is the Minister concerned about a situation where he has informed the House that a number of boatloads of arms were landed here and yet notwithstanding this extensive search those arms have not been located? What are the Minister's proposals in that serious situation? Is the Minister at all concerned that in some cases at least the Garda perhaps have been over-extensive in casting their net, and that the reports from the Council of Civil Liberties and other sources are a matter of extreme concern? It would appear that very many people who have no connection whatsoever with militant republicanism have had their homes surrounded and searched without warning. It would also appear that at least some left-wing activists who have no connection with militant republicanism have been singled out for attention by the Garda. They feel this is designed to intimidate them from engaging in legitimate political activity. In one case, the details of which I can give to the Minister privately if he wishes, the gardaí came into a home and paid more attention to the contents of the bookcase than to searching elsewhere. I would ask the Minister to comment on these very serious complaints of over-zealous activity in some instances.
Regarding the question of whether the search was justified having regard to the fact that no major caches of arms were discovered, I would say to Deputy Taylor that it is not merely a question of whether the action of the Army or the Garda Síochána was justified. There were reports that these arms had been landed. These reports were evaluated by the Garda Síochána who formed the view, with which the Government concurred, that it was necessary for a major search to be undertaken to find out if the arms had been landed and, if so, to seize them. I do not think this matter should be spoken about in terms of value for money.
The question was about where we go from here.
These reports were received and on professional police evaluation a search was considered necessary. I may add that the search will continue until such time as it can be said with some degree of certainty whether the weapons were landed here on the scale alleged. Regarding the second part of Deputy Taylor's question, he should reflect on what I said in my initial reply. If there are complaints about the way the police operation was carried out it is open to any citizen to lodge his or her complaint with the Garda Complaints Board which is there for that specific purpose. I should point out that six out of every ten homes searched were searched without any need for a warrant. Almost 43,000 homes were searched without the need for a warrant while 6,500 homes were searched with the help of a warrant. I am grateful to the people for the co-operation they gave the security forces in carrying out this search.
Does the Minister believe that these four cargoes arrived as he said on 24 November and that their combined tonnage of arms and explosives exceeded that on board the Eksund? Will the Minister tell us why the search has now been scaled down so drastically? The reported finds are nothing like what was found on board the Eksund. Is it true that people who had bunkers built on their premises may only be charged with breaches of the planning laws and will not be prosecuted for any other offences? Why did the Minister fail to answer Question No. 24 which seeks to establish whether the police who travelled to France were informed by the French authorities, as I am told, that the cargo on board the Eksund was loaded at Tripoli? I am mystified as to the Government's failure to answer this question since I have been told that these gardaí reported they were informed by the French police that the Eksund was loaded at Tripoli.
If the Deputy's sources of information were revealed to the House perhaps they could be looked upon in the cold light of day to see what is in them. With regard to the combined tonnage which I referred to in my statement last month, the Garda were of the view which I indicated. The Garda have informed me that the search for arms will continue on the basis of information and intelligence acquired during the search so far. Further searches on a selected basis may be necessary for some time yet. The Garda will conduct these searches and in the event of their needing help from the Army I have no doubt they will make the request for same in the normal way.
Regarding the Deputy's suggestion that those people who are involved with bunkers and dug-outs may only be charged with breaches of the planning law, it is a matter for the Garda to decide what charges to bring. They will do their business in the normal way. We in this House will not tell the Garda what charges to bring against those involved.
Regarding the information sought by the Deputy in Question No. 24, I repeat that I do not intend to disclose the information sought. It has never been the practice to disclose information received on a confidential basis from intelligence sources. That is the practice and I do not propose to depart from it.
If an entirely innocent family were raided by warrant either by error or as a result of incorrect or malicious information supplied to the Garda — I have a specific case in my own constituency — what recourse have the family to establish the reasons they were listed for search and interrogation and to clear their good name and, in the interest of civil liberties, to ensure that they will not be the subject of unjustified Garda attention in the future? Is it not the case that the Garda Complaints Body would simply claim privilege? Can the Minister give the House an assurance that in such an exceptional case the Garda Complaints Body will give the information required and take steps to clear the name of any such family?
The Deputy said he knew of an entirely innocent family who had their house checked. I have already told this House that 50,000 houses were searched during the course of this operation. It was an ordinary Garda operational decision. If people have any grievance or complaint about the way the search was conducted I suggest they consider getting in touch with the Garda Complaints Board set up by statute before the change of Government.
Would the Minister not agree that he has an obligation to justify to the people the carrying out of such a massive search which involved the invasion of the homes of tens of thousands of people? The Minister indicated at his press conference that there was a threat to the security of the State but it would appear from what he has said today that there was not such a threat to the security of the State. Given what was found and the type of search carried out, there is nothing to suggest that the security of the State was at risk.
That point was made before. We must avoid repetition.
We are living in a police State. Tens of thousands of homes were invaded at enormous cost to the taxpayer.
The Chair has a duty to avoid repetition at Question Time.
I have questions down asking why the activities of juvenile liaison officers will be suspended at weekends. We are spending millions on a massive search which has produced results which cannot justify it. The Minister has not given us a justifiable reason for this having taken place in the first instance and he has not satisfied us that he has concrete evidence——
The Deputy has made his point. I must ask him to desist from making a speech.
Has the Minister got concrete evidence at this stage — following the information some of us got by the way — about the possibility of four boat loads of arms and ammunition having landed here in 1985 and 1986? At this stage would the Minister say whether he, his Department, the Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces have got adequate proof that such a boatload or boatloads landed here in order to justify continuance of this search?
The Deputy should bring his alleged supplementaries to a conclusion.
At this stage the Minister should come clean, tell us exactly why this took place, what the Garda were hoping to find, whether it was for a different reason altogether and whether we should stop searching people until——
I am afraid this is tending to become a debate. I shall proceed to the next question if order is not restored. I want to dissuade Members of the notion that they may debate this matter now. It is not in order to debate it now.
I reject out of hand the assertion by Deputy Seán Barrett that we are living in a police State. I might continue to say that I am extremely thankful, as are the Government and the people of this country generally, to the security forces of the State for carrying out a massive search for arms, that it was believed——
I did not say we were living in a police State. I said we were not living in a police State.
The Official Report will show and the people who are listening to this debate will know.
Order.
I might say, in addition, that the information we got — and it was not, to quote Deputy Barrett, information got "by the way"; that is a mischievous way in which to frame a supplementary question — was information from other sound security forces, information that probably the Deputy will be convinced at some stage was more than sufficient for us to arrive at the decision we did. The fact that we have found four bunkers, some constructed to such a high degree of effectiveness by way of light and ventilation, that we have discovered a number of dug-outs, that people like Dessie O'Hare were arrested, warrants the congratulation of the security forces of this State, on behalf of the Government and on behalf of the people. I might add that the owners of 43,000 homes allowed the Garda to search without any warrant. That totally belies the suggestion in the Deputy's supplementary question.
The Minister referred to four bunkers. Details of the location of three of them have been published. Where is the fourth one?
I am not sure what details were published but they were not published——
Midleton, Gort and Arklow.
I am not sure which ones were published. I will find out what statement has been issued by the Garda, if any, and I will communicate it to the Deputy perhaps later this evening or tomorrow morning.
Would the Minister agree, in summary of this overall operation, that it has not been successful in the purpose for which it was designed? Is the Minister telling the House that we here, as Deputies representing our constituents, are to be fobbed off? Is he, as Minister for Justice, satisfied to airily dismiss serious claims by people who protest their innocence and non-involvement ever with militant republicanism, about being raided, guns being brandished, children frightened? Is he content that the matter be referred to the Garda Complaints Board and that we, as Deputies in this House, are not correct in standing up protesting about their position here while he, as Minister, for Justice, is not standing over their civil liberties, having regard to the very genuine complaints that have been raised and mentioned here by myself and other Deputies?
I might say to Deputy Taylor that he was part of the Government of the day that took the decision and enacted the legislation necessary for establishment of the Garda Complaints Board to deal with such matters.
In isolated cases, not a whole plethora like this.
Does the Minister still consider that there is a serious danger to the security of the State having regard to the results of this search? Does he also still believe that there are arms hidden away in this State equivalent to the haul taken from the Eksund? If he does hold such a belief does he intend to invoke any of the other powers available to the State, pursuant to the Offences Against the State Act, to take measures to ensure that the security of the State is safeguarded? If he does intend in the future to invoke any of the other powers available to him under the Offences Against the State Act would he so indicate to the House?
Most certainly I am satisfied that if arms equivalent to the haul found on the Eksund had got in by way four shipments — which information we received indicated to be the case — then undoubtedly there would be no reason for anybody to believe but that we were facing an exceptionally serious threat to the security of this State. On 26 January 1986 there were four finds of arms, three in County Sligo and one in County Roscommon which netted in excess of 100 Kalashnikov and East German and Romanian automatic rifles, quantities of explosives and large quantities of ammunition. Twelve months later, almost to the month, there were two finds of arms and explosives in the United Kingdom, in Macclesfield Forest and Delamere Forest. What was found in those two caches was clearly linked to or tied up with what was found in Counties Sligo and Roscommon. One could draw conclusions that some of those cargoes — had they got in — were already being distributed to other parts. I believe, as do the Garda, that there is every reason the search should be continued. That is their professional judgment, that is why they are searching and will continue to search. The Government will be acting constantly on the advice of the Garda observing the situation as it develops.
Does the Minister intend to invoke any of the other powers available to him under the Offences Against the State Act, such as the possibility of internment?
Order, I am calling Deputy Harney, I am allowing a brief question from Deputy De Rossa and then Deputy Gregory, in that order. I will then proceed to another question.
Would the Minister agree that perhaps the reason 42,000 people were so willing to allow the Garda search their homes was that, first they were not aware of their rights and, second, that most people would feel intimidated if a large number of armed Garda and so on arrived at their door? Furthermore, would the Minister agree with me that these people are now subject to a certain amount of suspicion in their communities and that many of them are deeply embarrassed? Would he agree that it would be helpful if he, in particular, and the Garda Commissioner issued a public statement to the effect that, unfortunately, the homes of many innocent people had to be searched during the course of this nationwide search by the Garda and Army? Lastly, is the Minister now in a position to indicate one way or the other whether these arms that are supposed to be in the country came from Libya?
In answer to the first part of the Deputy's supplementary question, I do not accept that people who cooperated with the Garda were not aware of their rights or felt intimidated. This was partly the reason it was decided that, in the course of the statement issued by me on the particular morning that the search began, there would be included a request to people to co-operate so that people would know what was going on. There was not any question — to use the Deputy's phrase — that people would wake up and find armed men at their doors or windows.
With regard to the suggestion of guilt contained in the Deputy's supplementary I should say there is no need whatsoever for any feeling of guilt on the part of anybody whose property was searched to ascertain whether there were any guns or explosives on those properties. Nor indeed was there any reason for people to feel any guilt any time the Garda had to conduct a search. We did have nationwide searches on previous occasions——
Motorists are stopped also.
Motorists are stopped and their cars examined——
If one house out of ten is picked on a street the Minister can imagine the effect.
The information given to me by the Garda authorities is that reports from the Garda search teams show clearly that there was a very high degree of co-operation. I cannot understand why Members of this House decry the operation.
Because the Minister cannot justify this operation.
This operation has been more than justified. I fail to see why we should have insinuations of living in a police State, of the Garda acting heavy handedly.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies are saying on the one hand that it should not have been carried out, but if it were not carried out they would be the first to cry that it should have been done.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister will have to accept that all of us in this House would want the weapons that are alleged to have been brought into this State to be found and taken out of the hands of those who may use them. But there is concern among many citizens about the widespread searches. To allay that fear, will the Minister state the criteria the Garda used to select houses? By way of assistance, let me suggest that on a number of occasions houses were searched and the people told it was because the houses were located in lonely places. Could the Minister outline any other reasons that houses were selected for search? Would the Minister also indicate, in relation to the bunkers that were found, whether it was felt that these bunkers were prepared for use or had already been used? In other words had the weapons that are being sought already been there and moved out or had they not arrived yet? Third, I would ask the Minister to clarify a question Deputy Shatter raised in relation to the threat to the State. One must presume that when the search exercise has been wound down the threat is not perceived to be as great as it was. Could the Minister indicate if that is so?
Let me take the third part of the Deputy's question first. The Deputy will realise and appreciate that there is always a threat to the security of the State when there are highly armed subversives who have explosives available to them and are carrying out the sort of atrocities that are being carried out by people engaged in that area. That threat would be lifted to a far higher level if they could get a greater fire power and the additional manpower to use it. There is every reason for the Government to be concerned with the situation as it is.
With regard to the decisions as to houses searched, it was a matter entirely for the Garda Síochána to make the assessment for reasons they thought were the proper reasons.
Yes, but what are the reasons for making that decision?
Information.
Those are purely operational police matters, not decisions made on the floor of this Chamber.
With regard to the other part of the Deputy's question, about the bunkers, I understand that one was used for some specific purpose that has not been clarified for me, while others were ready for use.
In an instance where a specific family are singled out in a very large community and raided by warrant early in the morning, can the Minister give an assurance that if that family go to the Garda complaints body, they will get the information as to why they were selected for search and interrogation, and that action will be taken to clear their name and compensate for the injustice done to them or will they simply be forced to take court proceedings to get that injustice righted?
If the family singled out feel they have a complaint they should go to the Garda complaints body. The Deputy will understand and appreciate that under the legislation enacted by the Oireachtas the Minister for Justice of the day has no say whatsoever in how the Garda complaints body fulfil the functions laid down for them by the Oireachtas. The purpose of the Garda complaints body is to deal with such matters.
May I give notice of my intention to raise on the Adjournemnt the question of smog in Ballyfermot and in Dublin in general?
I will communicate with the Deputy.