asked the Taoiseach if his Government propose to forward views and proposals regarding devolution in Northern Ireland as indicated in Article 4 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
3.
Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Anglo-Irish Agreement.
2.
asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the Government's current views on the Anglo-Irish Agreement in general, and in particular on Article 4 of that Agreement.
4.
asked the Taoiseach if he will indicate the other aspects of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, besides devolution, on which he has reservations.
5.
asked the Taoiseach if he will outline his views on the devolution proposals contained in Article 4 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement; and whether he is pursuing his policy under the Agreement.
6.
asked the Taoiseach if he is committed to implementing all sections of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, including Article 4 dealing with devolution.
7.
asked the Taoiseach if, in view of his remarks in the Dáil on Wednesday, 2 March 1988 he will now clarify his intentions regarding the operation of all Articles of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
77.
asked the Taoiseach if, in the light of his comments at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis, and in view of his reply to Parliamentary Question No. 2 of 2 March 1988, he will welcome the developments of an active dialogue between the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland on the range of issues of concern at present, including the possibility of establishing a basis for devolved Government which would secure wide-spread acceptance throughout the community there; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 7, inclusive, and written Question No. 77 together.
The Anglo-Irish Agreement is an international agreement between two sovereign Governments and is therefore binding on both Governments and their successors in office. It cannot be set aside unilaterally.
This Government made it perfectly clear on coming into office that we accepted the agreement as binding and furthermore that we would use the machinery of the agreement to secure any possible improvement in the situation of the people of Northern Ireland and in particular of the members of the Nationalist community. We have done that consistently.
Article 4 of the agreement deals with the question of devolved Government in Northern Ireland. It is important to look at what exactly the agreement says about this issue.
Paragraph (b) of Article 4 states:
It is the declared policy of the United Kingdom Government that responsibility in respect of certain matters within the powers of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland should be devolved within Northern Ireland on a basis which would secure wide-spread acceptance thoughout the community. The Irish Government support that policy.
Paragraph (c) of Article 4 states:
Both Governments recognise that devolution can be achieved only with the co-operation of constitutional representatives within Northern Ireland of both traditions there. The Conference shall be a framework within which the Irish Government may put forward views and proposals on the modalities of bringing about devolution in Northern Ireland, in so far as they relate to the interests of the minority community.
Paragraph 4 (b) therefore makes it clear that devolution is primarily a matter for the United Kingdom Government and the community in Northern Ireland. The paragraph simply states that the Irish Government support that policy.
Paragraph 4 (c) does two things. It spells out clearly that devolution can only be achieved with the co-operation of the constitutional representatives within Northern Ireland of both traditions there. It goes on to state that the Irish Government may put forward views and proposals on the modalities of bringing about devolution. But an important qualification is that this right to put forward views and proposals is confined to doing so in relation to the interests of the Nationalist community.
The role of the Irish Government in regard to devolution is therefore a limited one. Taken as a whole, Article 4 makes it clear that devolution is primarily a matter for the British Government and the parties in Northern Ireland with the Irish Government having a supportive role should they deem it appropriate to exercise it in the interest of the Nationalist community. The agreement cannot be interpreted as placing an obligation on the Irish Government to initiate devolution proposals. The Irish Government clearly have complete discretion as to whether or not they would put forward views or proposals at any stage.
This was the position of the previous Government. They did not regard themselves as having any obligation during their term of office to put forward views and proposals and they did not in fact at any stage put forward any proposals. I think most people would agree that they were right in that decision. The fact that they did not make any proposals makes it clear, that not alone is there no obligation on the Irish Government to put forward proposals for devolution but also that it may well be preferable not to do so if the circumstances do not warrant it.
I regret to have to say that some Deputies apparently wish to use the Anglo-Irish Agreement as something of a political football. Even though we have clearly stated that as a Government we fully accept our international obligation to honour the agreement and that we have consistently availed of its procedures in an effort to improve the situation of the people of Northern Ireland, these Deputies continue to attack the Government over the agreement. I think it is legitimate for me to ask what purpose they think they are serving by these tactics. They are certainly not improving the status or the prospects of the agreement itself by suggesting that this Government are endeavouring to undermine it.
Instead of trying to wrongfoot the Irish Government would they not be better employed in examining how the British Government are meeting their obligations under the agreement and whether they have in fact adhered to the provisions of the agreement on some important occasions recently? If they did that, they would much more effectively serve the interests of the Nationalists of Northern Ireland, and the Anglo-Irish Agreement itself.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
It is my view and I believe that the view would be shared by the leadership of the SDLP that no opportunity exists at present for the Irish Government to put forward any views or proposals on devolution. From the Nationalist side there are no definitive proposals on the table. As far as we know there is no commitment at present by Unionist representatives to any acceptable form of power sharing devolution. Dr. John Alderdice, the Alliance Leader, stated recently that, at this stage, it would not be particularly helpful for the Dublin Government to make devolution proposals and, of course, Article 4 (c) as I have mentioned, states that both Governments recognise "that devolution can be achieved only with the co-operation of the constitutional representatives in Northern Ireland of both traditions there."
I would like to state again that it is my belief that a long term and lasting solution to the agony of the North will only be found through the establishment of new all-embracing political structures for the whole of this island. The Leader of the SDLP has stated that if agreement were to be reached between the SDLP and the Unionists alone it would be a very unstable agreement because Unionists would still look over SDLP shoulders to Dublin. In saying that I believe he clearly envisages a broader framework.
This Government are deeply anxious to secure political movement in Northern Ireland and will keep the situation under continuing review and avail of any opportunity that presents itself for constructive and open dialogue directed towards that purpose.
Whether or not a system of devolved Government would bring peace to Northern Ireland in the short term is a matter of opinion. In my judgment it would not bring permanent and lasting peace. Others may disagree and, of course, they have a perfectly legitimate democratic right to do so. But no-one can argue that there is anything in the Anglo-Irish Agreement which makes devolution a mandatory solution and, in fact, the agreement clearly gives to the constitutional representatives of Northern Ireland the right to assent or not to any proposals.
That lengthy reply arises out of a misrepresentation or an ambiguity left from replies to questions last week in this House. The Taoiseach accuses Deputies — I presume he means outside his own party — of using the Anglo-Irish Agreement as a political football. That charge comes very badly from the Taoiseach who was accused by Deputy Blaney ——
Let us proceed by way of supplementary question.
(Interruptions.)
We must proceed by way of supplementary question at Question Time.
We do not want any ——
Questions please.
We do not want any lessons from the present Taoiseach about how to behave ——
Ceisteanna le do thoil.
Am I correct in assuming from what the Taoiseach has said that he intends to work, as the agreement demands, with determination and imagination all aspects of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, that if he does not consider the present time suitable for putting forward views and proposals on devolution he will use the opportunity when he does consider the time suitable? Will he also look at what the preamble to the agreement says about the rights of both communities in Northern Ireland to participate in the structures and process of government there? That is part of the preamble to the agreement which he did not quote here. Because of the difficult relations between the UK Government and our own at this time a "present" narrowly defined like that is not a suitable time for putting forward views and proposals, but will he ensure that the cochairman sitting next to him will put them forward when the time is suitable?
I will repeat the essence of my reply, namely, the agreement should be interpreted much more clearly as indicating that the initiative in regard to devolution rests with the British Government in co-operation with the constitutional representive from Northern Ireland, as Deputy Barry said. As I interpret the agreement it is allocating to the Irish Government a role of vetting and supporting any such proposals if in their view they are in the interests of the Nationalist community. I think that is a fair summary of the agreement.
I would like to put some supplementary questions to the Taoiseach. Since the Taoiseach returned to Government have any discussions taken place between him and the British Prime Minister or in the Anglo-Irish Conference on the question of devolution in Northern Ireland? If that has not happened, in what circumstances would he consider putting forward proposals in relation to devolution? Lastly, is the Taoiseach satisfied at present with the Anglo-Irish Agreement as an appropriate framework for bringing about reconciliation in Northern Ireland? Does he see it as a suitable vehicle for doing it?
No substantive discussions have taken place in the sense in which the Deputy asks the question. Naturally, all matters of that kind are the subject of the discussions on an on-going basis with the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland.
In what circumstances?
The circumstances are really outlined for me or anybody else in the agreement itself, that it would be the policy of the British Government to attempt to devolve powers inside the North of Ireland. I should make the point here that it is only powers which are exercised by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland which can be devolved. The agreement visualises the British Government taking the initiative in devolving such powers, discussing that devolution with and, presumably, securing the agreement of the constitutional representatives, and only at that stage would the Irish Government come into it. They are the circumstances in which the Irish Government would have a role in regard to devolution proposals.
Deputy Kennedy.
There are further aspects to the question.
I hope to get back to the Deputy. I now call Deputy Geraldine Kennedy.
I am sure the Taoiseach will respond. Does he see the agreement itself as a suitable vehicle for bringing about reconciliation?
Certainly I see it as being capable of making a contribution to improving the situation of both communities in Northern Ireland. To that extent it would be an instrument towards achieving progress in Northern Ireland.
Would the Taoiseach support an initiative from the British Government at present on devolution?
The essence of my reply was that most people would agree that at present there is not much scope for bringing forward proposals on devolution.
Article 4 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement which the Taoiseach has outlined in great detail commits the Irish Government to supporting the policy of devolution. Let me ask the Taoiseach if this Irish Government support the policy of devolution in the context of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
I think I have given my view fairly fully in my reply. These are very important and complex issues and I have set out my views fully and specifically.
I think the Taoiseach has accepted, after some circumnavigation of the issue, that devolution would be a stage in which the mechanism of devolution might help to bring about reconciliation. Is the Taoiseach not aware that the Leader of the Official Unionist Party is reported to be of the view that the Taoiseach has concluded that even power sharing devolution was not a worthwhile objective? Is the Taoiseach not aware also that the Leader of the OUP has quoted a statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to the effect that it was up to the Taoiseach to decide whether to put forward proposals?
The Chair would be remiss if he did not point out that quotations at Question Time are not in order.
I have made no quotation.
I assumed the Deputy was quoting.
No, I was paraphrasing very freely but accurately. Would the Taoiseach not agree that if the interpretation put on his remarks last week is to the effect that other people believe he sees no role for devolution, he is thereby running the risk of cutting out of the whole process one stage, a stage which he admits would be useful?
I do not think the Deputy can attribute to me blame for what other people may conclude from my remarks. What I am doing today is putting on the record crystal clear what exactly my views are on all aspects of this matter.
Would the Taoiseach agree that, as I made clear in the Dáil here on 8 December last, the previous Government put forward no proposals on devolution and that the question I asked this day week out of which this controversy arose was not whether the Government were putting forward any proposals for devolution, but whether the Taoiseach would see devolved government as possible or desirable as a political solution in Northern Ireland and as part of an interim solution to bring peace in Northern Ireland? Finally, the subject matter of my question is whether the Taoiseach would agree that the Government would welcome the development of an active dialogue between the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland on the range of issues of concern at present including the possibility of establishing a basis for devolved government which would secure widespread acceptance throughout the community.
I am at a loss as to the Deputy's thread. The only thing I can do is repeat what I said in my reply to the question. As Deputy Dukes has pointed out, it is very easy to be misinterpreted on these matters. It is not a very satisfactory process to have to give answers in this way across the Floor of the House to supplementary questions on something as important and as complex as this. So I repeat what I said. Whether or not a system of devolved Government would bring peace to Northern Ireland in the short term is a matter of opinion. In my judgment it would not bring permanent and lasting peace.
Let me say, before I ask my question, that the Taoiseach's original reply was very long and complicated, so I hope that questions arising out of that will not be ruled out on the basis of repetition. Does the Taoiseach accept the view that the Irish Government's role at the Anglo-Irish Conference is to put forward views and proposals in the interests of the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland, and that whatever views Nationalists might have on the long-term solution to the problem in Northern Ireland, it is incumbent on the Irish Government of the day to do things that will relieve the plight of the Nationalists in the North and that one of the ways of doing that is by giving them a role now in a power-sharing devolved Government there? We can look after our shared aspirations later on.
I do not follow the Deputy there. What I have said — and I thought the Deputy was agreeing with me — was that as of this stage there does not seem to be any sort of fruitful ground for the bringing forward of proposals for devolution.
I want to bring in Deputies John Kelly, Garret FitzGerald and Tomás Mac Giolla.
Assuming that the Taoiseach attaches importance to the views and feelings of the Northern majority, which one has come to suppose he does, would he not consider the possibility that the reason Mr. Molyneaux and others may have misunderstood him — if they have misunderstood him — is his constant or very frequent reiteration of his own personal belief, which may be as easily wrong as right, that there is no permanent solution to be found within the Six County framework? That may be a correct view regarded in the light of a century, but it ought not to obstruct, as I think everybody in the House would agree, a short-term solution. If the Taoiseach would pipe down about his personal prophetic beliefs about what is or is not going to happen in 50 or 100 years possibly we might get somewhere in such a way that the people now alive will have a normal existence.
In view of the Taoiseach's words I would like to crystalise the clarity of his response by asking two questions. First, in his opening statement, I understood him to say, in summarising Article 4 (b), that it involves a commitment to support devolution if it would benefit the minority. I thought I heard him say in reply to a supplementary that the agreement, in Article 4 (b), involved supporting devolution to the extent that it benefits the minority. Would the Taoiseach not agree that Article 4 (b) is unconditional and that it states that the Irish Government support devolution and do so for the reasons set out in the preamble, because the Irish Government believe — and that belief is set out in the agreement — that devolution would and will benefit the minority? I would like clarification of that.
The agreement says nothing about benefiting the Nationalist community. It merely talks about the interests of the Nationalist community. The best thing I can do at this stage is quote what the former Taoiseach himself said in his remarks at the signing of the agreement when he indicated that the majority of the Irish people should share this aspiration to Irish unity being achieved peacefully and by agreement. In other words, I think that the former Taoiseach, on that very important occasion, confirmed the Nationalist position which Deputy John Kelly is now attacking me for reaffirming.
The Taoiseach has not replied to the question which relates to the unconditional character of Article 4 (b). Second, I would like to ask him about another reference in a reply to a supplementary question when he said that in regard to the putting forward of proposals or views by the Irish Government — something which is by no means appropriate or necessary at this stage — that this would arise only after agreement had been reached on devolution. Only at that stage, the Taoiseach said, would the Irish Government come in. Would he not accept that the purpose of Article 4 (c) is to make provision so that the Irish Government can make a useful intervention, helpful to the situation in Northern Ireland and to the interests of the minority in advance of agreement being reached rather than after the event when there is no point in it?
The Deputy himself said on one occasion that the agreement is not written in stone and, therefore, to that extent I do not think we should be trying to speculate on what might or might not happen in the future and what developments might take place and what might evolve. In so far as the present position is concerned and without preempting future developments or devolution as envisaged by the former Taoiseach, I would give it as my view that the initiative does not rest with the Irish Government. Perhaps there is room for an alternative opinion on that, and if so I would like to hear it argued. My reading of the process as outlined or envisaged in the agreement is that the initiative would lie primarily with the British Government; that they would start devolving powers from the Northern Secretary of State, discussing that devolution in the first instance with the representatives of the constitutional parties in the North and, as that process was taking place, the Irish Government would have a role especially from the point of view of the interests of the Nationalist community.
Arising from the Taoiseach's reply that devolved government would not bring a permanent or lasting solution, which is something with which I could go along, does the Taoiseach agree with the statement of his Minister for Foreign Affairs in December last that he would welcome dialogue between constitutional parties in Northern Ireland on a range of issues, including the possibility of establishing the basis for devolved government?
The simplest answer to that is that I would welcome any dialogue with representatives of the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland. As I made clear in my speech and in reply to Deputy Spring on another occasion, I would be glad to hear at first hand from the representatives of the Unionist tradition their views on anything about the situation, whether it is devolution or anything else.
I want to bring these questions to finality. I want to dissuade Members from the notion that they can debate this matter today. They may not debate the matter. I will hear another question from Deputies Barry and Spring and then I am moving on to the next question.
It certainly was not our view that the Irish Government would have this passive role when Nationalists in the North have waited for 65 years to have an Irish Government have some say over their affairs in the North. It is almost treacherous of the Government to throw away that opportunity now.
I do not think the Deputy should use the word "treachery" in this context.
I said "nearly". It is nearly treachery that this Government should throw away that opportunity now.
I am passing on to another supplementary.
Is it the correct summation of the Taoiseach's position that he does not consider it a suitable opportunity at present to put forward views and proposals on devolution but that at some later time, circumstances permitting, he would do so?
First I want to suggest that the Deputy is misinterpreting the position. What has been said about the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the way we have acted in regard to it is that we will avail of its mechanism and procedures to achieve any progress possible in the North. I do not think Deputy Barry can attack me on the question of not putting forward proposals in regard to devolution because, for the 18 months that ensued from the signing of the agreement until he went out of office as Minister for Foreign Affairs, he did not put forward any proposals for devolution.
(Interruptions.)
I would like to get some clarification because I would not want any misinterpretation of this very important discussion this afternoon. There seems to be some difference in the reply the Taoiseach gave to me earlier in this question session and the reply he gave to Deputy FitzGerald. I assume that this agreement, the Anglo-Irish Agreement, gives the Irish Government major powers as an initiating body. We are equal partners in the agreement and I would see that our role is anything but passive. I am rather concerned now about what the Taoiseach has been saying in his later replies, that he does not envisage an initiating role for the Irish Government, and that in fact he is relegating this agreement to the third division. I want some reassurance that that has not been allowed to happen and that the Taoiseach, leading his Government, will have an initiating role in the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
What I have said is very clear. I am simply endeavouring to interpret the agreement as I have it before me. As I have said, the thrust of Article 4 of that agreement makes it clear that devolution is primarily a matter for the British Government and the parties in Northern Ireland and the Irish Government come onto the scene in a supportive role, in giving views and proposals on the modalities of devolution as proposed in the interests of the Nationalist community.
Not as proposed, there are no such words.
The Taoiseach is taking too much of a back seat in this.
Since this is one of the rare opportunities in the House that we have to question the Government on the Anglo-Irish Agreement, may I ask the Taoiseach, in view of the fact that he has said the agreement is not written on stone if any preparatory agenda has been set up at this stage for the important review of the agreement in November?
It would not be correct to say that anything in the nature of a formal agenda has been put forward.
Question No. 8 has been postponed.