Vol. 380 No. 6
asked the Minister for Education the steps, if any, she has taken to involve parents in the discussions concerning the proposed new pupil-teacher ratio at vocational, community and comprehensive schools arising from Dáil Éireann's decision of 9 March 1988.
7.
asked the Minister for Education if she will indicate the way in which she proposes to convey the progress and the conclusions, if any, which were made by the Central Review Committee of The Programme for National Recovery, in relation to education.
10.
asked the Minister for Education the number of meetings which have been held under the procedures of the Central Review Committee of The Programme for National Recovery to reconsider the proposal to disimprove the pupil-teacher ratio in national, community and comprehensive schools since Dáil Éireann's decision of 9 March 1988, those who were represented at each of these meetings; and when the committee is expected to conclude its deliberations.
16.
asked the Minister for Education if the Central Review Committee, provided for in the Programme for National Recovery has yet considered the implications of the decision to increase the pupil-teacher ratio in vocational, community and comprehensive schools, in accordance with the resolution passed in Dáil Éireann in March 1988; the outcome of any such consideration; if it is intended to maintain existing teacher levels; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
24.
asked the Minister for Education if, in order to protect the provision of practical subjects in second-level schools, she will consider the establishment of a formula which would provide for the lower pupil-teacher ratio which these classes require.
26.
asked the Minister for Education when she intends to outline the staffing requirements for community and comprehensive schools having regard to the fact that schools are at present making preparations for subject choice, class organisation and timetabling for the next term.
36.
asked the Minister for Education if she will ensure that any decisions resulting from the negotiations at present in train on the pupil-teacher ratio at both primary and post-primary levels will take special account of the needs of pupils in disadvantaged areas.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 7, 10, 16, 24, 26 and 36 together.
Bilateral discussions between Government officials and representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions under the aegis of the Central Review Committee of the Programme for National Recovery are currently taking place on the matter of the implementation of the decision to increase the pupil-teacher ratio in the primary and post-primary sectors. As I said, the talks have been concluded in the primary sector. Pending the outcome of the discussions, Deputies will appreciate that it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on the issue at the present time.
First, in relation to the talks to which the Minister refers, can she tell me if their terms of reference derive from the motion passed by this House? In that sense, would she mind indicating explicitly to the House what progress has or has not been made in relation to the vocational, comprehensive and community sector? She might tell us when the next meeting in relation to this sector is scheduled and what offer she has made.
The Deputy is correct in saying that the terms of reference of the discussions were contained in a resolution passed in this House on 9 March last. With regard to the Deputy's question as to the point we have reached in these discussions, as I said in my earlier reply it would be inappropriate for me to say precisely what stage they have reached. As the Deputy knows, it is a feature of such talks that one does not disclose publicly what stage they have reached.
I have tabled Question No. 7 which sought very specific information from the Minister.
I will call Deputy Higgins again. Perhaps he would allow me call the other Deputies who have tabled questions also.
As has been widely reported in the past few days the Central Review Committee appear to have run into difficulties and have reached an impasse. Can the Minister say whether these difficulties have been resolved, whether there is another meeting planned in the near future and, if so, when exactly?
There are many ways of getting round a question. I hope to answer the Deputy in another way without disclosing the contents or the stage the talks have reached. I am hopeful that the talks will continue and that a satisfactory resolution will be reached. I am not prepared to comment beyond that at present.
My question, No. 36, refers specifically to the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and post-primary levels in disadvantaged areas. My information is that the talks have reached stalemate because of the figures leaked from the Minister's Department approximately a fortnight ago, indicating a reduction in teachers of 9.6 per cent, which I suppose represents ten teachers to be made redundant in Cavan and 20 in Monaghan, which is totally unacceptable and will result in the loss of a subject in schools there.
A question, please, Deputy.
The Minister will appreciate that mine is a disadvantaged area. I would ask the Minister to bear that fact in mind in these talks, that she would go back to her negotiators telling them that the figures leaked do not represent the bottom line, that they will have to be geared to——
The terms of the motion passed in this House on 9 March 1988 said:
That Dáil Éireann, conscious of the special role played by vocational, community and comprehensive schools in the education system particularly as it affects the disadvantaged young person,...
The motion then continues but essentially they are the terms of reference the Central Review Committee, and its component parts, is addressing. I cannot comment on any individual county.
With regard to the motion passed by this House to which the Minister referred, could she clarify that the review is taking place in the context of overall public expenditure — as the motion sought — or whether it is being considered in the context of the actual departmental Estimate? In order to save time may I ask the Minister another question: with regard to the pupil-teacher ratio — specifically in relation to practical subjects which warrant smaller classes and, therefore, clearly a larger number of teachers in any school — will the Minister indicate whether she proposes to ensure that an adequate pupil-teacher ratio is applied to those practical subjects?
I can confirm to the Deputy and the House that this examination is taking place, as the Dáil motion sought, within overall budgetary strategy. Secondly, I should say: yes, the matter to which the Deputy referred, of practical technical subjects, is being addressed.
Would the Minister agree that it is singularly unsatisfactory that the Dáil motion should make reference specifically to the vocational, community and comprehensive sector, yet that is the very sector in respect of which she is now telling the House she can say nothing publicly but about which she might say something privately? As far as I understand, the Minister has reached an impasse in the talks in relation to this sector. I will now repeat my question: when will the next meeting take place in relation to the vocational, community and comprehensive sector? Furthermore, in view of leaks from her Department, will she inform the House where the disadvantaged posts in the post-primary sector will be and what number of posts she has offered for the vocational training programme?
Let me put quite clearly on the record of the House a fact which is known to the full membership of the Central Review Committee — there were no leaks from my Department with regard to the information to which the Deputy refers. I want that fact noted. The Deputy insinuated I was going to announce privately; I should say that in this respect I never said, now or at any other time, I was going to announce anything privately——
——that the Minister would find some other way.
What I said was that I was not in a position now to announce publicly what stage the talks had reached. I have not used the word "privately". The talks are ongoing. I should say it is my firm wish and every effort will be directed towards ensuring that the talks will be concluded satisfactorily.
I want to call another Deputy and then proceed to other questions. I will allow a very brief question from Deputy M. Higgins. I will call Deputy Higgins and then Deputy Quill and proceed to another question.
May I ask the Minister again—an entirely new matter — what was the attitude of the Central Review Committee in the talks to the request by parents in the community and comprehensive sector for representation in education of a formal kind. Furthermore, will the Minister say whether at the talks the issue of her proposals to declare approximately 95 people redundant on 20 May — because of her withdrawal of the contract of the Department of Education from Bus Éireann in four counties — was discussed?
Please, Deputy. He is injecting new information into this matter which is completely out of order.
You have disallowed my Private Notice Question, a Cheann comhairle.
That may be so, Deputy, but it is not in order now.
You did suggest to me, on the Order of Business, I might raise this matter by way of supplementary, and it is relevant.
It is hardly relevant now, Deputy.
The Minister will not be here before she has sent 95 people out of their jobs.
I am sorry. I have given the Deputy some latitude, I must now ask the Minister to reply.
The Deputy asked in the earlier part of his question whether parents would be involved in the talks——
No, they made a submission through the Minister for consideration by the Central Review Committee and I asked the Minister if they had discussed those proposals.
All matters in my Department which would be appropriate to these discussions and their fruitful delivery, are conveyed by my officials who are attending the talks. The Deputy can take it that parents' views would be regarded as of paramount importance.
I am calling Deputy Quill.
A Cheann Comhairle, the Minister has not answered my question.
I have called Deputy Quill.
The Minister has not——
Please, Deputy Higgins, I must ask you to resume your seat and allow questions to proceed in an orderly fashion. I have given the Deputy a lot of latitude——
You have, a Cheann Comhairle.
He does not seem to appreciate it.
I do appreciate it, a Cheann Comhairle.
Deputy Quill has been called; I must insist. The Deputy will leave the House if he persists. The Deputy will now leave the House.
Reluctantly I have to——
Yes, indeed.
——because of the attitude of the Minister for Education to employment in the public sector.
Deputy Higgins withdrew from the Chamber.
With less than a month to go to the summer holidays can I ask the Minister when the principals in these second level schools will be told what subject teachers will be lost to them due to this voluntary redundancy scheme so that they can plan their timetables for the next school year and tell their students, especially first and fifth year students, what subjects will be offered to them in the incoming school year?
All partners to the Central Review Committee are aware of the time constraint which is imposed upon them. When the talks began that was clearly laid out in front of everyone. The bodies involved in the talks are anxious that they would meet a deadline which would enable the schools in question to receive the notification of their allocations in time for the sanction, appointment and retention of teachers. That view is very well known and I am hopeful that all involved will work towards it.
Question No. 8.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Can I ask——
The Deputies will resume their seats. Question No. 8.
If the Deputies are dissatisfied with the Minister's reply they have a way out.
We certainly are dissatisfied with it. It is a very important subject and this is the place to raise it.
