Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 1988

Vol. 383 No. 9

Supplementary Estimates, 1988 (Resumed). - Vote 3 — Department of the Taoiseach.

Minister for Energy and Minister for Communications (Mr. R. Burke)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £750,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1988, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach, including certain cultural and archival activities and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

I wish to clarify the position on the change in the title of this motion, which was seen to cause such concern earlier on. It is not technically possible to change the title at this stage because of the fact that it has been circulated, but I give a commitment to the House that in the 1989 Book of Estimates the title will be changed to take account of the type of argument that was made. It will be something of the order: "Grants for projects as defined in section 2 of the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Act, 1988".

Dr. G. FitzGerald

I wish to thank the Minister for this.

Mr. McDowell

This motion relates to the 1988 Estimates. Am I correct?

Mr. R. Burke

Yes.

Mr. McDowell

It does not relate to next year, but it relates to this year. I take it I am correct because I do not wish to be irrelevant. I take it I am correct in saying that this is the only occasion on which this House will consider the sum of £750,000?

Mr. R. Burke

The Taoiseach's Estimate has not been taken yet for this year, so it can be discussed.

Mr. McDowell

When will that be taken?

Mr. R. Burke

This is normally at the end of the year.

Mr. McDowell

Have I the Minister's assurance that all the items for which the £750,000——

Mr. R. Burke

The Taoiseach's Estimate has not been taken yet.

Mr. McDowell

It has, it was taken last June.

Mr. T. Fitzpatrick

Surely the Taoiseach's Estimate was taken during the Adjournment Debate some months ago?

Mr. R. Burke

I have been assured that it has not. But in relation to it may I say——

Mr. McDowell

I think I have possession.

Mr. R. Burke

I was trying to be helpful.

Mr. McDowell

It now transpires that this is the one and only occasion that this House will consider this £750,000, despite what the Minister has been told by his officials. This is a Supplementary Estimate to an Estimate that has already been approved by the House. This is the first and last occasion that the House will consider these moneys. It now transpires that what I said is correct and what the Minister said is incorrect. We will never be informed before we authorise this £750,000 as to the purposes for which it will be spent. That was the point I made and I was accused of obfuscation and deceiving the House and trying to misrepresent the record but it now appears that in November 1988 we are moving a Supplementary Estimate to the Taoiseach's Estimate, which was the subject matter of the Adjournment Debate last July. It now appears that this is the first and only time that the House is being given an opportunity to consider where this £750,000 is going. When this year elapses there will be no further discussion on these sums of money. The Minister assured the House in the course of the debate that £600,000 would be spent on a lifeboat facility this year on the west coast. He also told the House that the Government had other projects in mind. He told the House solemnly, and attacked Deputy O'Malley somewhat bitterly, I suggest, for being untruthful. He attacked him for suggesting there was no accountability. I now say to the Minister that £750,000 proposed to be authorised by this House to be expended in this Estimate will not be the subject matter of another Estimate during this financial year. The money is to be spent during this financial year and neither the Minister nor anybody else on that side of the House is willing to say what it will be spent on and what projects it will aid.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Let us ask the Minister.

Mr. McDowell

There is going to be no accountability — none whatsoever. Everything we have said is true and everything that the Minister has said is false.

Mr. R. Burke

That is not true.

Mr. McDowell

The Minister has told this House that there would be accountability, but there will be no accountability.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not attribute a falsehood to a Member of this House. The Deputy must withdrew that remark.

Mr. McDowell

I suggest that the Minister was entirely misleading.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is compounding the matter.

Mr. McDowell

It is entirely lacking in any veracity.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw the allegation of falsehood unreservedly.

Mr. McDowell

I unreservedly withdraw the allegation of falsehood and I suggest that the Minister has misled the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not try to circumvent the ruling of the Chair in respect of such appendages. Let us have no hair splitting about this.

Mr. McDowell

If I may be heard, I am suggesting that the Minister has misled the House, because he has told the House that we will have an opportunity to debate the purposes for which these moneys will be spent. It now transpires that that was based on a misapprehension on his part, because he thought that the Taoiseach's Estimate had not yet been debated by this House. This is the one and only occasion we are being given to debate the purposes for which these moneys are being spent and to the extent——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must not assert that the Minister deliberately misled the House.

Mr. McDowell

I said it was on a misapprehension.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is still splitting hairs.

Mr. McDowell

With the greatest respect, a Cheann Comhairle, the Minister has led us up the garden path. The record shows it. Now may we hear what the £750,000 will be spent on?

Mr. R. Burke

We estimate that about £500,000 will go to the Royal National Lifeboat Institute.

Mr. McDowell

It was £600,000 this morning.

Mr. R. Burke

They will be getting £1.1 million altogether. They will get £500,000 or £600,000 this year and the balance next year depending on the cost of the lifeboat. I think Deputy McDowell will understand that it is very difficult to say at this stage exactly how much the lifeboat will cost and how much the RNLI will want to spend in a very necessary upgrading of their life-saving equipment.

The balance of the money, if it is not spent this year — and it is an estimate only — will roll over and will carry over into future years. We can have a full debate in this House at any time.

Mr. McDowell

If it is spent this year what will it be spent on?

Mr. R. Burke

We have spent all day today debating exactly what it will be spent on. The basis of the amendment that I put down sets out exactly what it will be spent on — which is based on the agreement entered into by the previous Government and confirmed by us. The moneys will be spent on the purposes as laid out in the amendment which we passed earlier, for the purpose of such projects or undertakings involving cooperation between the State and Northern Ireland or between the State and Great Britain or relating to the island of Ireland as a whole.

Deputy McDowell can try to cast as much dirt as he likes, but this will be fully accounted for. We will have an Adjournment Debate at Christmas and Deputies will have a full opportunity to discuss it. The Deputy will have a full opportunity to discuss it during the budget debate. Every single penny will be accounted for and all the insinuations that Deputy McDowell has been making all day will not stand up. The money will be fully accounted for by the Comptroller and Auditor General and by this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that the Minister has replied to the Estimates.

Dr. G. FitzGerald

The Minister was never called upon to conclude. He replied to a point that was made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair decides these matters. I will allow a question but I take it that the Minister has very largely replied to the debate.

Dr. G. FitzGerald

I wish to raise the possibility of some of the money being applied for a purpose which was raised in the discussion, but no conclusion was reached, and that is the suggestion that is might be applied to the Royal Irish Academy — an institution that represents the whole island of Ireland. Whereas the question of the Royal National Lifeboat Institute was brought to a further stage, nothing was arranged conclusively about the Royal Irish Academy. Nonetheless it was one of the points raised at the time and I would like the Minister to consider it. I am a member of the Royal Irish Academy but I have had no communication of any kind with them and they do not know what I am saying about it but I felt I should raise the matter here.

Mr. R. Burke

I have no doubt that it will fit within the criteria entered into in the agreement between the Deputy's own administration and the British Government and now confirmed by the Bill which is about to be passed. It is now a matter for the Royal Irish Academy to apply for the funds.

Vote put and declared carried.