asked the Minister for Defence the reason he, when speaking at McKee Barracks, Dublin 7 on 11 April 1989, ruled out the possibility of a meeting between himself and the spouses of members of the Defence Forces to discuss pay and conditions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces' Pay and Conditions.
16.
(Limerick West): The Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces has responsibility for the formulation of military proposals affecting the conditions of service of members of the Defence Forces. In dealing with these matters he has the assistance of specialist military staff and the benefit of a wide section of opinion within the Defence Forces. In the normal administrative process of my Department conditions of service are reviewed constantly and sympathetically with a view to giving effect to improvements where warranted. Furthermore, the Committee on Pay and Conditions have been established by the Government on a permanent basis and now include two former members of the Permanent Defence Force. The military authorities may make submissions to the committee on matters referred to them for consideration.
I am satisfied that these arrangements represent the proper machinery in respect of matters relating to conditions of service in the Defence Forces.
Would the Minister have the courage to put on the record of this House his position with regard to the National Association of Army Spouses and say clearly that he is not prepared to meet them? Would he explain why he is refusing to meet with a nationally constituted democratically elected executive established throughout the country with upwards of 20 branches? They have legitimate interests because the conditions of spouses and of children of members of the Defence Forces are directly related to pay and conditions within the Defence Forces? Would the Minister confirm that the Taoiseach has also refused to meet this body? Is the Minister aware of this? Would he indicate whether it was he who was responsible for withdrawing tickets of admission to this year's Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis in respect of the delegation from the National Association of Army Spouses who went there?
The Deputy is inserting a lot of new matter into this question.
(Limerick West): If anybody is lacking in courage, it is the Deputy. The Minister does not lack courage and does not intend to lack courage.
The Minister is afraid to meet the delegation.
(Limerick West): A Cheann Comhairle, I am asking your protection in order to reply.
(Interruptions.)
Has the Minister finished his reply?
(Limerick West): No.
Well you may ask.
(Limerick West): The organisation to which Deputy McCartan has referred and many other organisations have had access to the interdepartmental committee set up by the Government to examine the pay and conditions of personnel in the Defence Forces. I am satisfied that the structures which the Government and I have now put in place are adequate to meet the needs of the Defence Forces. In addition, there are structures within the Army to deal with any problems which arise from time to time on a permanent basis. The military authorities make submissions to the committee on matters referred to.
Is it true that the Minister said at some point during the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that he would meet the Army spouses and then went back on his word? They went and they got nothing.
(Limerick West): This is typical of the misrepresentations by the Deputy and his colleagues on that side of the House within the past hour.
The Minister changed his mind because somebody told him not to meet them, namely the military authorities.
(Limerick West): The Deputy should get his facts correct.
Would the Minister accept that it is a less than edifying spectacle to find a Minister of the Government in a blue funk afraid to meet the spouses of those who serve the State at home and abroad?
(Limerick West): I have already indicated that this Minister does not lack courage.
In view of the fact that the only means whereby members of the Defence Forces can make representations to the political head of the Department is through the spouses' association, would the Minister not agree that in order to assuage the existing fears, the unrest and the discontent it would be in the interests of the security of the State to meet with the National Association of Army Spouses?
(Limerick West): Representatives of the military will have full access to the committee to present their case on this matter.
(Interruptions.)
Nothing has changed.
(Limerick West): I am looking for the protection of the Chair in order to reply. Every person serving in the Defence Forces has direct access to me.
And so have the spouses.
(Limerick West): Deputy Durkan has asked a question and I want to reply to him.
If the interruptions are to continue I will go on to the next question. Deputy McCartan for a final question.
Given that the Minister has attempted to represent that matters within the Defence Forces are catered for — the Minister has made that case, although I do not accept it — does he not accept that the spouses' association have a legitimate interest in their own affairs exterior to the structures within the Defence Forces? Does he not accept that as non-members they have a legitimate interest and a case to make and that he should at least meet them for discussions?
I think the Deputy has made his point.
Does the Minister maintain that they have no case to make or to be listened to?
(Limerick West): During the past two years I have visited every military barracks in this country and the men and officers have direct access to me. I have spoken to the men and listened to their problems and I am satisfied that they are being adequately catered for.
If the Minister believes that he will believe anything. He must have met the Chief-of-Staff only.