Vol. 395 No. 5
7 Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Finance if he will give a progress report on the measures being taken to ensure adequate consultation and involvement of local communities in the distribution of Structural Funds; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
22 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Finance when he will appoint the members of the board for the monitoring and implementation of the Regional Plans; and the resources which will be available to these bodies.
26 Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline the Government's proposals for regional participation in the overseeing of the National Development Plan, especially in light of the reported comments of the EC Commissioner, Mr. Bruce Millan, in Brussels on 17 January 1989 in which he suggested that there were differences between the Government and the Commission on the matter; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
38 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Finance the way in which it is proposed that regional committees will monitor the distribution, use and application of European Structural Funds.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 22, 26 and 38 together.
Local interests will be consulted, and will have a significant role in monitoring the implementation of EC Structural Fund aided measures at sub-regional level.
Deputies will recall that the National Development Plan, which forms the basis for Ireland's applications for increased Structural Fund aid, was drawn up by the Government following widespread consultation at national, sub-regional and local level.
The process of consultation will be continued under the Community Support Framework which has been agreed between the Government and the EC Commission, and which will govern the operation of the EC Structural Funds up to the end of 1993. The Community Support Framework provides for the establishment of sub-regional review committees comprising representatives of local authorities, the social partners and the main Government Departments responsible for Structural Fund programmes.
It is intended that each sub-regional review committee will be regularly informed and consulted about implementation of Structural Fund aided measures in, or significantly affecting, the sub-region concerned. To this end, the sub-regional review committees will receive regular progress reports and financial statements detailing progress to date and measures proposed under the various operational programmes. My Department will have overall responsibility for the provision of such information to the sub-regional review committees.
The sub-regional review committees may convey views on any aspect of implementation of Structural Fund measures to monitoring committees which will be set up in respect of each operational programme or to a high level committee with overall responsibility for implementation of the Community Support Framework.
It is envisaged that the sub-regional review committees will be convened once the operational programmes have been approved by the EC Commission. At that stage, a sub-regional breakdown of the operational programmes will be prepared for the sub-regional review committees.
Would the Minister agree that the provision of the regional advisory groups was only introduced after Commissioner Millan browbeat the Government into reconvening them? Would he also inform the House what resources are being made available by the Department of Finance to these groups to carry out their functions in a positive and proper manner?
In response to the second part of the question, adequate resources will be made available for the proper operation of those sub-groups.
Last time you could not buy a pencil.
Let me answer. Commissioner Millan did not have to browbeat the Irish Government into doing anything. Our decisions were taken long before his comment. Commissioner Millan is entitled to his view. The Government of this country will do their business as they see fit.
They chastised you.
He has no business to chastise me, and would not.
The greedy hand of Finance controls everything.
Would the Minister not agree that in the course of his extensive reply he has yet again perpetrated an extraordinary political mistruth when he attempts to suggest that the programme that was submitted to Brussels in March was formulated following widespread consultation with the regional groups? Would he agree that that is, to all intents and purposes, a political lie?
Deputy Quinn is coming very close to the bone of alleging that the Minister is telling lies. That is not in order.
I know, but I did not hit the bone.
I want to make a clear distinction that that is not what you are doing.
I am saying that the Minister, once again, has come very close to the bone in attempting to suggest to the nation and to this House that the document that was put on the desk in Brussels was formulated following widespread consultation. That simply is not true. Would the Minister still stand over that statement now that he has had a chance to reflect upon it?
I take it the Deputy is making a political charge only?
I am asking him a question because it leads on to my supplementary.
There is no personal imputation? There cannot be.
It is my experience as well as Deputy Quinn's.
It is mine also.
Let us hear the Minister's reply.
I would like to be clear as to what I am being asked to answer. I would like to have it clarified. Am I being accused of telling lies or not, because that is the charge as I read it?
I have sought to make that distinction.
I am saying that perhaps the Minister is, inadvertently because he did not write the reply, misleading the House by suggesting that the programme submitted to Brussels was formulated following widespread consultation.
I want no ambiguity about the matter. The Chair takes it that the Deputy has made a political charge, with no personal imputation that the Minister in any shape or form is telling lies.
Absolutely, Sir.
It was investigated by the Court of Auditors.
The Deputies now accept that they are not levelling the charge of telling either lies or political lies at me and I accept that; but I neither deal nor indulge in political mistruths or political half truths. I repeat what I said. The application was made to Brussels after consultation with several regional sub-groups in this country. If that is not widespread, I do not know what is.
Would the Minister agree with or deny the charge I made that the national plan had been submitted to Brussels before the south-west regional plan was submitted to Government? How can he square that one?
I have no problem squaring that because there was a continuous flow of information from the centre to the regional groups.
The civil servants are calling the shots.
I cannot understand how Deputy Allen could make such a statement. His record of attendance at the meetings of these sub-regional groups was abominable. I think he was at two out of 12.
That was the advisory group. I was not on the committee.
Deputy Allen puts a question and then proceeds to shout the Minister down. This is not good enough.
The record is so bad that I do not understand how he can make such a statement.
I was only on the advisory committee.
How many meetings did the Deputy attend?
If I was not there I had a substitute.
Deputy Allen, if you persist in heckling from a seated position I will ask you to leave the House.
Then I will rise. The Minister made an allegation against me——
The Deputy will resume his seat and if he interrupts once more I will ask him to leave the House.
May I reply to the Minister's——
(Limerick East): May I——
Sorry, Deputy, I have called Deputy Blaney.
Is the Minister aware that the notice and time given to some local authorities was as little as four days and that included a weekend? The vocational education committee, of which I am a member, got the invitation to submit their proposals on a Friday and they had to be in by Tuesday. They were submitted by Tuesday but they did not receive the proper consultation which is expected. Is the Minister further aware that the committee, which I understand was presided over by a senior officer of his Department, did not so much as consult, discuss or debate the various proposals from the local authorities but told them what was going to go through? We cannot accept that as proper consultation, even if the Minister has been so led to believe.
I want to repeat what I have already said. Seven sub-regional groups were set up, advisory committees and working groups, on which there was wide representation from local communities, local authorities and everybody else concerned——
That is simply not true.
Please, Deputy Quinn.
We could not even buy a pencil.
The Minister does not know what he is saying; it is simply not true.
I am absolutely sure about what I am saying.
I am sorry but the Minister is not.
The Minister is misleading the House.
These inferences again and again to untruths——
What the Minister is saying is not true.
It is totally misleading.
The Minister is totally misinformed. I am saying that——
Deputy Quinn knows the rules of this House in respect——
——the information which has been conveyed to this House is not in accordance with what I know it to be.
Before I call Deputy Gilmore, I want to dissuade Members from the notion that they may debate this matter now. As soon as Deputy Gilmore has concluded his brief supplementary I am proceeding to the next question.
I wish to respond to the allegation made by the Minister.
The Deputy will obey the Chair. Deputy Gilmore.
As a member of the largest local authority in the country——
I want to respond to the allegation made by the Minister. I attended——
I have tolerated Deputy Allen's disorderly conduct——
The Minister made the same allegation before in——
If Deputy Allen persists in this disorderly conduct I will have to insist that he leaves the House.
(Limerick East): A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Noonan, do not intervene when I am dealing with disorder.
I will be orderly.
Fair enough.
As a member of the largest local authority who were not in any way seriously consulted, as is claimed by the Minister, may I ask the Minister if he accepts that what he has described as consultation with local groups was nothing but a sham, that what he is now proposing for the continuing establishment of local sub-regional groups is no more than the continuation of the loose arrangement which existed prior to the submission of the plan which was criticised by the Commissioner for Regional——
I asked for brevity, Deputy.
It is my first time——
That is immaterial. I have asked for brevity and insist on brevity.
I am asking the Minister if he accepts that the loose arrangements he is proposing to continue are precisely the same arrangements which were criticised by the EC Commissioner for Regional Affairs, that they will prejudice our position as regards Structural Funds and will mean there will continue to be no real local consultation or involvement——
The Deputy has made his point and is embarking upon a speech, in any event.
I want to remind the Deputy again, and those who are not aware even at this late stage in this process, that Ireland is a single region in the European Community and is seen as such.
That is the problem.
Consequently, the Government are under no obligation to consult anybody if they do not wish to.
That is the problem.
Now it is out. It is all a sham; they have no obligation——
I know what is wrong with the Deputy. The only problem he has is that his firm did not get the bloody job for Dublin.
That is a most outrageous statement.
There is no need for such disorderly conduct at Question Time.
A Cheann Comhairle, that was a most outrageous comment and is totally untrue.
The Deputy asked a question and if he does not——
I wish to make a personal statement.
I will permit the Deputy to make a personal statement.
I had no professional interest, good, bad or indifferent in relation to the formulation of any plan and perhaps the Minister, on reflection, will withdraw an allegation which was made in the heat of the moment.
I accept what the Deputy has said. He should allow me to finish my reply without shouting wild allegations in the middle of it. I am sure the Deputy knows that this country is a single region and despite having no obligation to consult we set up seven sub-regional groups around the country. The Commission were told about these groups in the very early days and got its blessing. Deputies are entitled to the view that they would have preferred much wider consultation to have taken place but I am telling the Deputy what the Government did despite the fact that they were under no obligation to do so. This was the only time during the preparation of a national development plan that that sort of sub-regional consultation was ever engaged in.
Question No. 8, please.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): On a point of order——
Is this a legitimate point of order?
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Yes. I know what happens at county council level but as a newcomer to this House I want to ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, how I can express the view that the Minister is not telling the truth?
Please, Deputy Browne do not——
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is there any way——
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is there any way——
Do not argue with the Chair, Deputy Browne. There are procedures in this House, Deputy Browne, which obviously you must learn. I will be happy to discuss this matter with the Deputy in the privacy of my office.
We need protection against the allegations of the Minister.
The Deputy should check the records. What I have said will stand up to all sorts of scrutiny; the Deputy was not at the meetings and that is it.
May I make a personal statement?
Please, Deputy.
The Minister has repeated his allegation. I want to make a personal statement.
The Deputies are very sensitive today.
Deputy Quinn made a statement and I want to refute the allegation made by the Minister. As Lord Mayor of Cork I attended every meeting of the advisory group. I was not a member of the regional——
That is enough, Deputy.
That is what the Minister said.
Half truths are more dangerous than lies.
I said the Deputy was not at most of the meetings; I did not say whether or not he was represented.
I was out in my official capacity and I had a substitute at the meetings. Half truths are worse than lies. lies.
Is the Deputy accusing me of telling lies?
Half truths are worse than lies.
It is a general statement, an observation with which no doubt the Minister will agree.
I would not agree with it. I did not attempt to make a half statement or tell a half-untruth.
I did not necessarily say the Minister did. The Deputy just made a general statement.
I said that the record in Cork shows that except for two occasions he did not attend most of the meetings.
I do not know if he was represented at the meetings. I said the Deputy did not attend the meetings and I stand over that.
Question No. 8, please.
