Deputy Rabbitte was in possession and has 17 minutes remaining.
Nomination of Members of Government: Motion (Resumed).
Atógadh an díospóireacht ar an tairiscint seo a leanas:
Go gcomhaontóidh Dáil Éireann leis an Taoiseach d'ainmniú na Teachtaí Uinseann Ó Brádaigh agus Nollaig Ó Dobharáin chun a gceapaithe ag an Uachtarán mar chomhaltaí den Rialtas.
—(An Taoiseach.)
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann approves the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputies Vincent Brady and Noel Davern for appointment by the President to be members of the Government.
—(The Taoiseach.)
I am not trying to be awkward, but I have raised this matter a few times. The Chair asked me to go to his officials in regard to it and I did. I am referring to the question concerning the huge problem of evictions and repossessions. I raised this by way of parliamentary question and on the Adjournment and have been told that, since the Minister for the Environment is disclaiming responsibility, I cannot raise it in the House. How do I raise it?
I shall look at it again, Deputy, but my office has given very careful consideration to the Deputy's request.
It is an urgent problem and I am told that I cannot raise it in the House, that no Minister will take responsibility.
Before I reported progress I talked about the hype and expectation engendered among our people by the kind of headlines we had been reading in recent days about the wide ranging changes we could expect under the new Government. Whereas the motion before us concerns the appointment of two Cabinet Ministers, there have been a good number of changes as well. I was offering the opinion in all honesty and modesty that not even the commentators most favourably disposed towards the Government would describe it as a Government of all the talents. In that respect I was commenting specifically on the fact that a number of commentators have taken time out to help inform public opinion on the multi-talented backbenchers of Fianna Fáil. I was offering the view that at night instead of counting sheep to get to sleep I often run my eye across the backbenches of Fianna Fáil and try to establish where is this multilayered talent that was on offer to the Taoiseach. I have some difficulty in discovering the same extent of talent as did some of the media commentators.
You spot the sheep though.
The Taoiseach has shown a perverse desire to exclude such talent as is undoubtedly available to him. There are talented backbenchers in Fianna Fáil. There are two in the House now, Deputy David Andrews and Deputy Brian Cowen, who in my humble opinion would be eminently suited for Cabinet office. One could add to them Deputies like Noel Dempsey and one or two others.
Whatever hope we had, it has now gone after that paean of praise.
I am merely trying to be helpful and am trying to make the point that talent is undoubtedly available to the Taoiseach but that, for some perverse reason, the Taoiseach has decided not to avail of it. It is bad enough for a Taoiseach to find himself without the most able of the Ministers of State, people like Deputies Máire Geoghegan-Quinn and Michael Smith who have been banished to the wilderness. But to pass over somebody of the credentials of Deputy Joe Walsh, for example, in a critical ministry like Agriculture, a ministry that was never more critical than at the present time in terms of the far reaching revision of the Common Agricultural Policy policy, and the interests of agriculture in the current GATT discussions, is incomprehensible. It seems to me that somebody of the calibre of Deputy Walsh, not to mention the geographic considerations which have been bruited about by the Cork papers this morning, was particularly suited to improve the capacity of what most commentators fairly agree has been a very mediocre Cabinet. The Taoiseach is to be utterly condemned in regard to why that has not happened. When the ordinary person looks at the Cabinet he is not interested in personality squabbles but in whether or not the new Government can provide him with a job, with a hospital bed or can stop his young teenager from emigrating. People want to know also if the Cabinet can produce more houses for the homeless or for those on the housing lists. These are the questions the people are asking. There is not any cause for joy in the Cabinet that has been put before the House today for approval.
There are any number of areas that one could choose to examine. One of the Ministers being nominated is being asked to take over the ministry of Education. In the whole affair relating to Deputy McDaid there must not be anybody more grateful for the excessive time it has taken up in the House than Deputy Noel Davern because it has steered attention away from the right of the Opposition to scrutinise the credentials of Deputy Davern for the post of Education above all ministries.
It is reasonable to expect that somebody who is elevated to Cabinet status has a track record and has expressed his views and vision for the future of our society or for the future of the portfolio he expects to take over. I can think of very little that equips Deputy Davern for this ministry, whether it is his extraordinary position on what ought to be done to desecrate the Rock of Cashel or his position vis-à-vis the travelling community. I cannot envisage such a man being able to pilot an Education Bill worthy of its name through this House, an Education Bill that has been looked forward to by all interests in education for some years now. I cannot envisage such a man piloting through curriculum change which is so desperately needed if the onward progress and modernisation of Irish society is to continue. I cannot envisage Deputy Davern, representing the views he does and is entitled to represent, tackling the gross inequity and scandal of the higher education grants scheme, a scheme that presents the obscenity of very wealthy members of the farming community, for example, finding it cheaper to buy townhouses for their children who have the benefit of education grants to attend one of our higher education institutions, compared with the situation of the bulk of my constituents who are PAYE workers if they are lucky, some of them on reasonable incomes, who have not a hope in hell of qualifying for a higher education grant under the present system.
That is one of the most serious inequities in Irish society. At the end of the day it is education, above all else, that transmits privilege in this society. Education is the main weapon of social mobility and great tracts of our society are excluded from participating in the higher education system. From what I know about Deputy Davern, and I know a reasonable amount about him, he is not the kind of man likely to introduce any equity into the disgraceful higher education grants scheme as it is operated at the moment. I do not think that Deputy Davern is the kind of man who is concerned with equality of access to education at all. It is a shame that the introduction of free education by a Fianna Fáil Minister that did so much to contribute to the development of Irish society over the last couple of decades is now in reverse and that there does not seem to be the same passion or vision to create a more egalitarian society in the new look Fianna Fáil front bench.
Having a look at Deputy Davern's background on the most underprivileged in our community, the travelling people, I cannot imagine that he will take any great step that will give those unfortunate people a leg up. I seem to remember James Connolly at some stage making a reference to the fact that you can judge a society by how it treats its lowest grouping. By that yardstick, the manner in which this society has treated the travelling people, we do not have very much to be proud of or to boast about. Deputy Davern's track record in the area leads me to believe that the culture of poverty and disease that is imposed on the children of the travelling community is likely to be the same when he leaves the ministry as when, if he is confirmed this evening, he goes into it.
The prospect of Deputy Michael O'Kennedy taking over at the Department of Labour is something that, try as I have to envisage it, escapes me. If there is any man temperamentally unsuited to the Department of Labour, it must surely be Deputy Michael O'Kennedy. Deputy O'Kennedy always presents the image of the small boy who accompanied the others to rob the orchard but who, because of timidity or whatever other reason, did not proceed but got the blame. That is not the kind of temperament that one needs in the present climate of industrial relations. To send Deputy O'Kennedy into the present industrial relations climate is like sending a one-legged man with no whistle to referee a match.
We have heard much from this Government about the importance of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and we have heard much praise, well merited, heaped on the head of the outgoing Minister for Labour, Deputy Ahern. We are told that this whole concept of consensus enshrined in the programme is a cornerstone of the economic policy of this Government. I am afraid that Deputy O'Kennedy has none of the bedside manner of his predecessor in the Department of Labour. I know already that many practitioners in the industrial relations business are alarmed at the prospect of Deputy O'Kennedy taking over that particular ministry.
The question of housing was touched on very briefly by the new Minister for the Environment, Deputy O'Hanlon. At the end of Question Time today Deputy Bernard Allen tried again to raise a question, which I also have sought to raise in this House, concerning the rate of repossessions at the moment of people's homes because of the economic climate and the rate of evictions. Deputy O'Hanlon came in and repeated, mantra-like, the Government's new commitment under the policy for social housing. The Fianna Fáil backbenchers know as well as I that, whereas there are some good, new and imaginative things in the policy for social housing, it will make only a minimal impact on the extent of the housing crisis we have in this country now. There has been a major retreat from public sector housing on the part of this Government. The local authority of which I am a member has 2,000 families on its waiting list alone. I spent the time that I was out of this House today, which was not very much, trying to deal with the situation, for example, at Kilmahuddrick in Clondalkin where a young woman and her baby have been forced to pitch a tent for the last two nights at Clondalkin because she cannot get housing and there is no prospect of housing from the local authority. That is how bad the housing crisis is. If all the new Minister for the Environment is going to offer to the homeless, to the young families on the housing list, to those living in overcrowded and unsuitable conditions is the prospect of implementation of the social housing policy, then all I can say is God help the homeless.
The Minister has done a direct swop with the Minister for Education who will now become the new Minster for Health. I want to welcome her appointment. I want to express the hope that her appointment removes the suspected shadow of the Knights of Columbanus from the Custom House and that issues like family planning will find themselves dealt with on a serious basis by the new Minister for Health rather than the outrageous, backward, anachronistic, shameful treatment——
Tá nóiméad amháin fágtha. There is one minute left, Deputy.
Níl sin ceart, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
Dúradh liomsa anseo go mbeadh deireadh le do chuid ama ag seacht nóiméad tar éis a ceathar.
Ceart go leor, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am sorry that is the case because there were a number of things I wanted to say. It seems that to criticise this House, as is being done now in many quarters, because it seeks to debate the shabby parade of scandals and alleged scandals that have happened over recent times is to say that rich men salting away unearned profits and tax free profits in foreign jurisdictions is not a legitimate matter for this House, is to say that the question of low standards in high places is not a matter for this House. I believe that they are legitimate matters for this House. I regret very much the level of personality abuse——
Tá an t-am istigh.
I say in conclusion that the question of personality abuse was introduced by the Taoiseach himself and by the next speaker, Deputy Ray Burke, the Minister for Justice.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with your permission and the permission of the House, I wish to share my time with Deputy Brian Cowen.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Statements were made in this House yesterday which carried extremely serious implications and a potential for grave damage to the national interest. It is my duty, not only as a member of the Government, but in my particular role as Minister for Justice, to set the record straight. The cut and thrust of political debate is something with which everybody in this House is familiar. We all expect the odd hard knock but we all know instinctively that there are certain limits. Yesterday those limits were exceeded in a manner which in my view was quite unprecedented. I think many people in our society who rightly take pride in this State, in the principles for which we stand and the institutions to which we give our allegiance, will be saddened to see what some Opposition Deputies set out to do here yesterday evening. Those whom we represent will wonder whether we have forgotten that we are Members of a parliamentary body that rightly has worldwide respect. They will wonder whether some among us have forgotten that they are successors to parliamentarians on all sides of the highest calibre and integrity. They will wonder why Deputies Noonan and Taylor-Quinn, in particular, sought to employ weapons dreaded and long since shunned at another time and in another place.
Nobody here is fragile enough to suggest that the generalised questioning of party antecedents and the like which takes place in all parliamentary institutions from time to time is personally wounding. But it is a different matter when one individualises and then proceeds to aim one's invective at those named. I hope that today Deputy Noonan in particular has come to realise that when a former Minister for Justice stands up in this House and describes one of its Members as a Provo fellow traveller, using newspaper coverage as his shield he has almost certainly gone too far. He is talking about an organisation which has been responsible for the murder of many of our citizens and the murder on a far greater scale of many of our neighbours in Northern Ireland, England and elsewhere and which threatens the very security of our State. I sincerely urge him to reflect in the current climate on the implications of leaving on the record the implication that anybody here is a fellow traveller of the proponents of terror and destruction. As a former Minister for Justice, he knows better than most that he has gone too far. I ask him to withdraw this very serious innuendo and I leave it to his conscience to do the right thing.
Getting on to the wider issue of damage to the national interest, I want to comment in particular on the outrageous remarks made by Deputy Madeleine Taylor-Quinn. The Deputy has not struck a blow for the security of this country; she has in fact struck out against civil liberties, against a free society and against the freedom of the individual which we in this country have come to cherish, thanks to the sacrifices made by our forebears in the earlier part of this century. State security is a double-edged sword. It should be wielded to protect the individual against threats both from within and without our society, but it must also be a guarantor of the freedom of the individual to go about his business, to express himself as he wishes in an open society and to speak to whomsoever he wishes without fear of defamation and indictment. It was she who described the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the proposed Minister for Defence and the Attorney General as a combination of people of irresponsible and untrust-worthy character who should not be entrusted with responsibility for the security of the State. She went on to speculate that secret information of a security nature might be leaked to terrorist organisations.
Quite apart from the unwarranted character assassination involved and the gross abuse of the privilege afforded to statements made in this House, I must ask if the Deputy has any idea of the potential damage she causes to the national interest in making comments of this kind. Are her party leader and her party colleagues happy to let statements stand on the record which — make no mistake about it — have the direct effect of stoking the prejudices on which terrorism feeds? Is she not aware that lives are at stake, because prejudice has it that this society is ambivalent on the question of terrorism? Has she no awareness of just how utterly wrong and dangerous it is to imply that members of the Government and their principal law officer, the Attorney General, might act in a way likely to aid the cause of terrorism? Not once since I became Minister for Justice, or during the period of any of my predecessors, has there been the slightest suggestion that the proponents of terror enjoy either the support or sympathy of any of the officeholders whom the Deputy sought yesterday to malign.
Let me put on the record once again this Government's commitment to do everything in our power to combat the violence of the Provisional IRA and other paramilitaries. Nobody should be in any doubt about that commitment. Both by words and actions we have demonstrated time and again our opposition to the men of violence. Since I became Minister for Justice in 1989 I have emphasised on numerous occasions this Government's commitment to ensure that every effort is made with all the means at our disposal to combat the violence of the Provisional IRA and other paramilitary organisations. I repeat that commitment now in the light of further atrocities committed by the Provisionals last night in Belfast which resulted in the murders of four persons and serious injury of others, including a five week old baby. As the Taoiseach made clear in the past, this commitment is willingly given because there is a duty on all of us, and it is one of the primary duties of Government, to do everything we can to protect our fellow Irishmen and women in the North from murder and mayhem.
Despite the protests of the vast majority of the people of this island and their rejection at the ballot box the Provisional IRA have continued their campaign of violence for over 20 years. Because of this campaign of murder it is an essential ingredient in relations between both parts of this island that co-operation in all areas be effective, in particular in the area of security co-operation. I want to emphasise that excellent work is being done in this area. I would draw the attention of the House to the comments made by the RUC Chief Constable on 20 October when he said that relations with the Garda were at an all time high and that there was probably the best relationship between both police forces that there had ever been.
Since 5 September 1989 I have attended 16 meetings of the Inter-governmental Conference under the auspices of the Anglo-Irish Agreement where discussions have taken place between the British and Irish Governments on all aspects of co-operation. I have carried out my duties in this area on behalf of the Government with responsibility and total respect for the privacy of the Conference procedures. I am sure everybody here will understand my deep resentment over the inferences made in this House last night, particularly by Deputy Taylor-Quinn, which would suggest otherwise. As one of the Ministers who participates directly in the extremely sensitive work of the the Anglo-Irish Conference process it is vital that my credentials in the matter of State security be beyond doubt. It is well beyond the bounds of acceptable parliamentary exchange, however heated the occasion may be, to imply that the credentials of those who are directly charged with the onerous responsibilities involved in State security are at issue when we all know that that charge is utterly without foundation. I trust that if she does nothing else here today the Deputy, or if she fails to do so, her party leader, will not allow her remarks to stand unchallenged on the record.
Returning again to our commitment, I would point out that security co-operation has resulted in a considerable financial burden on this State since 1969. As well as the cost in human terms the violence has cost us dearly in the loss of jobs, investment and opportunities. It is estimated that additional security costs in 1991 arising from the troubles in the North will be of the order of £118 million and since 1969 the Exchequer has incurred expenditure of approximately £2 billion as a consequence of the Northern situation. This is an indication of the lost of opportunities which our society has had to endure as a result of the Provisional IRA campaign, as scarce resources were diverted away from areas of potential growth and investment and into the unproductive area of security. It is also an indication of our commitment to ensure that the campaign of the paramilitaries is tackled head on and that all resources possible are made available to ensure that they will be defeated.
Many of our people will have great difficulty in understanding some of the contributions from Deputies opposite on this Government's record on extradition. Can they really expect us to believe that they are sincere in what they say? Have they forgotten that it was during the term of office of a Fianna Fáil Government, of which I was also a member, that the Extradition (European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism) Act, 1987, came into force? Do they not remember that, while a Fine Gael-Labour Coalition Government introduced that legislation, they also chose to defer bringing it into operation? It then fell to a Fianna Fáil Government to create the conditions under which it was possible for that legislation to come into force by enacting the Extradition (Amendment) Act, 1987, with the additional safeguards that Act contained. Both that Fianna Fáil Government and the present Government have never shirked their responsibilities in regard to the extradition process or the difficult decisions which at times have had to be taken. Can anybody on the Opposition benches seriously doubt this without doing grave injustice to the facts?
The events of the past day in this House have been characterised by the selfless action of Deputy James McDaid, who rather than contribute in any way, through no fault of his own, to any instability in the Government, chose to relinquish the opportunity to serve his country in Government. The Members opposite have reserved their greatest bitterness for Deputy McDaid, a young man who has graced this House during the past two years with his honesty, integrity and foresightedness. They sought to hurt him by ascribing to him views which he deems to be repugnant, hateful and against everything he holds dear. As a medical practitioner, he respects life. Before entering this House, his professional life had been dedicated to preserving, nurturing and even saving lives. As a Deputy, he has sought to represent the community in this House and to participate in the efforts directed to the betterment of the lives of the people of Ireland. How can this man be accused of being a fellow traveller? How can this man be accused of betraying the confidence of his countrymen to the terrorist who seeks only to destroy, wound and kill?
I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate and commend to this House my colleague, Deputy Vincent Brady, who is to be the new Minister for Defence. Deputy Brady has given many years of fine service to this nation and I am confident he will serve our people well as an excellent member of the Government.
The record of this Government speaks for itself. There is no place in this House for innuendo, smear, guilt by association. Let us all, for God's sake, agree on this. There is no place of refuge nor is there support or sympathy in any shape or form in any of our hearts or minds for terrorism. Let us, for God's sake, agree on this also. Finally, let us agree that the message we send forward to those who suffer at the hands of terrorists and those whose days and nights are surrounded by fear of terrorist activitiy is not a message of ambivalence, as implied in the House yesterday evening, but a message of revulsion towards all acts of terror and a clear signal that the purpose of all our endeavours in discharging the duties of office with which we are entrusted is the attainment of peace, justice and reconciliation on our beloved island.
Deputy Cowen has a maximum of eight minutes.
This morning afforded me the opportunity to contemplate the seriousness of the outrageous behaviour of the Opposition which we witnessed here yesterday in the debate on the nomination of Deputy McDaid to a Cabinet position. The political attack came from a poisonous coalition of Ceausescu's political children in The Workers' Party and Franco's mongrel foxes in the Fine Gael Party. Anyone who has to listen to their political litany of character assassination based on assertion and innuendo can only have been appalled. I see a former Taoiseach smiling. It will rightly be regarded as a day of infamy in debates in Dáil Éireann and the former Taoiseach, Deputy FitzGerald, would have known days of that nature.
We were treated here yesterday to the spectacle of Deputy Noonan acting as a one-man political pogrom band. He should have known, as a former Minister for Justice, that one must be prudent and careful in ensuring that temperate language is used and that the safety of any individual should not be put at risk. The editorial in today's edition of the Irish Press sums up the central point I wish to make. It states:
The background of any new Minister and his past actions are a matter of legitimate concern for the Dáil. Seeing that a constituent who has been charged with a crime and whom one sincerely believes to be innocent gets justice, however, is not just a legitimate concern of a TD but his duty. That is all that Dr. James McDaid did and for that his chararcter was subjected to assassination by Mr. De Rossa and Deputy Michael Noonan.
Their attacks not only smack of McCarthyism but pay scant heed to the possible danger in which their words could put a TD who lives so near the Border.
For a former Minister for Justice to label a Deputy as a fellow traveller of the IRA is irresponsible in the extreme. In the James Pius Clarke case Deputy McDaid acted honourably. It is sad — but worse still — dangerous, coming from such a prominent member of the Fine Gael Party, to seek to politically assassinate a man who did no more than seek to protect the constitutional rights of a citizen and constituent.
That action was all the more prudent when the highest court in the land decided to refuse to extradite Mr. Clarke. It should be a matter of pride that a Deputy would act in the way in which Deputy McDaid did. Deputy Noonan, despite his protestations about the IRA, aped their most notable and foul method of political and character assassination shamelessly and with some degree of enthusiasm, even in front of the man's wife and children. Last night in this Chamber we witnessed the ugly sound of tramping feet echoing the darkest days in the history of the State.
U2 are supposed to be representative of a new, emerging, more tolerant generation dedicated to pluralism and fair play. Perhaps the new album — Achtung Baby — which they are releasing this weekend could be dedicated to Fine Gael or The Workers' Party.
We also witnessed here yesterday Deputy Taylor-Quinn, some sort of self-appointed political Salome, looking for the head of an innocent man on a plate. We saw the second known launch of the MTQ missile; in its first manifestation it was a harmless and rather silly projectile which had as its target a comedy programme called "Scrap Saturday". The MTQ missile then sought to have the programme blown out of the water and called for its banning. It was a puerile episode. However, the mark 2 model of the MTQ missile yesterday was a more sinister and sophisticated secret weapon brought forward by the Fine Gael Party. This one was indiscriminate in its target, fuelled on the bile and inherited hatred of a bankrupt party, its purpose was to suggest that if Deputy McDaid was nominated to the position of Minister for Defence it was liable to compromise the security of the State. The tenor and substance of such an outrageous charge leaves even the most hardened politician gasping. Its implications were so serious it should immediately have been withdrawn. We still await its withdrawal.
When the people are making up their minds where they stand in relation to this whole sordid affair they should compare the dignified withdrawal of Deputy McDaid yesterday evening with the headstrong refusal of Deputy Taylor-Quinn to apologise for her unfounded political smear. It will be to the continuing discredit of Deputies Taylor-Quinn and Noonan as long as they refuse to withdraw their unwarranted claims articulated in the House yesterday.
I would have thought that this week we would move on from the mire in this House which people witnessed in the past couple of weeks; it is expected of us. I am making this contribution for the sole purpose of expressing my abhorrence of the tactics used here yesterday to do down a personal friend whom I know to be a decent and honourable man. A decision will be taken this evening to reestablish the sort of political stability for which everyone is crying out. I will look back on these traumatic days with deep regret. The political responsibility for this débacle lies with the Opposition benches. The unforeseeable reaction to Deputy McDaid's nomination seems to have been influenced by comments from politicians outside the State whose observations are made from a position of ignorance. It is a sad day when they find willing and enthusiastic allies in this House. It reflects a mentality that our people despise and from which the Opposition parties cannot hide.
Let us now move on to the real political business of running the country.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I very much regret the sentiments expressed by Deputy Cowen who is, apparently, leaving the House. When the Minister for Justice suggested that we had become too involved in personal abuse, instead of directing his attention to this side of the House he might have given a warning to Deputy Cowen who must expect me to make some comments in reply to what he said. However, he has now left the House. He does not seem to be concerned with the effects of his remarks. I very much regret that one so young should have gone so deeply into the past. He talked about the mire which the people had witnessed over the last few days and I agree with him but it is inexcusable for him to condemn other people and then to do the same thing himself.
Like many Members on all sides, I would have liked to have had the opportunity of dealing with these new appointments as a whole, to suggest what they might do for the image and performance of the Government. Unfortunately, we have been distracted from the seriousness of one appointment in particular by the personal comments made. I would have had many comments to make on the different appointments. I see originality in some of them although I find difficulty in understanding others. However, I will have to leave that to another day because of the importance of one appointment and the short time available to me.
Three weeks ago today the members of the Police and Security Committee of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Association, which included Members of both side of this House, including Deputy Cowen and myself, and a number of British MPs, were on a fact finding mission to Northern Ireland and Border areas, including those in the Republic. We were unanimously impressed, particularly by what we saw and heard on this side of the Border. We also had the opportunity to learn at first hand at a meeting in Enniskillen of the terror being experienced, particularly by Protestants living in Border areas as a result of the barbarism of the IRA. I say "unanimously" because that applied not only to the Irish delegation but the British delegation also. The message which was repeated time after time was the necessity for the fullest confidence in the security forces and the fullest co-operation between the security forces North and South. We heard that message in Belfast and in Enniskillen no matter who we talked to on whatever side of the Border.
Last night in Belfast there was a further escalation towards what I described on other occasions as incipient civil war. Unfortunately, there will be more of the same because there are people on both sides in the North who see their future as dependent on the promotion of civil war. It is against this background that we should assess the nomination of Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence. In doing so we should remember that in politics, particularly in anything to do with Northern politics, invariably the perception is more important than the reality. When Deputy McDaid was asked by the media why he thought he was being appointed to this position he speculated that it was for the purpose of winning an extra seat in his constituency of Donegal North-East. He speculated that on a radio programme at 1 o'clock yesterday and, apparently, later. After 20 years and the deaths of more than 3,000 people, with the barbarities of Enniskillen, Le Mans and others, after millions of words of sympathy, regret and condemnation, the motivating factor for appointment of the first or second most sensitive position in the Government of this State is the petty party political consideration of a possible extra seat for Fianna Fáil in the next election.
I have on previous occasions registered my disappointment at the extent to which partitionism is endemic in our body politic on this side of the Border. Many Members in this House no longer think in terms of the island or the nation as a whole. The immediate instinctive response relates to the Twenty-six County State. I can find excuses for it, on occasions there is even justification for it, but not on this issue. In view of the importance of the position of Minister for Defence for the safety and well-being of all the people on this island, I find it particularly hard to understand this partitionism, this concentration on constituencies and on petty political matters, particularly by some people who describe themselves as Republicans. I fail to understand it.
I have said that I regret very much the personal abuse in this debate — indeed it has been the case over the past number of weeks. Much play has been made about remarks attributed to my colleague, Deputy Michael Noonan. There has been much vituperation heaped on his head by many people, including the Minister for Justice who left the House during my speech.
He would not know how to insult anyone.
Deputy Noonan, in his contribution, questioned the judgment of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, in appointing Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence when it was clear that the publicity which had arisen from the involvement of Deputy McDaid in the extradition proceedings in the case of James Pius Clarke would reflect very poorly on the Government and the country and that this publicity would make the position of Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence untenable. Deputy Noonan did not say that Deputy McDaid was a fellow-traveller of the Provisional IRA. What he said was that the publicity surrounding his appointment would depict him as such. Lest there be any doubt about what Deputy Noonan said I will quote from the record:
The Taoiseach also has a duty to explain, in the face of all this publicity which I have drawn to the attention of the House and which I am sure the law officers of the State drew to the attention of the Taoiseach, the reason he would discount the publicity which has surrounded Deputy McDaid and proceed with his appointment. This country is going to be shamed once again tonight when all the wrong signals will go out internationally. I have no doubt that this will be the leading item on BBC, UTV and RTE and that the message will be that the Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland is appointing a Provo fellow-traveller to be his Minister for Defence.
That is the message that Deputy Noonan predicted would go out, and how right he was, as those who watched the British media last night will know.
I will briefly refer to the remarks made by the Minister for Justice in relation to my colleague, Deputy Taylor-Quinn. I will take those remarks in the context of the necessity for securing co-operation between the security forces North and South and of the quotation of the Chief Constable of the RUC in relation to the great co-operation that exists at present. The remarks of the Minister merely add to the contention of Deputy Taylor-Quinn that there should be no excuse whatsoever for pointing the finger at the security forces on this part of the island or their political masters for suggesting the slightest equivocation in relation to the men of violence. The Minister's remarks merely underline the contention of Deputy Taylor-Quinn.
I should like to put on record my view of Deputy McDaid. I have had the advantage on a number of occasions of having conversations with him on Northern Ireland, as I have had with Deputies of all parties in this House. I judge people as I find them, irrespective of party. I have found Deputy McDaid to be honest and sincere. He has told me of his detestation of the IRA and their methods. I admire what he did in this House last night and the dignified and principled way in which he did it. I regret that his great day so quickly turned to disappointment and possibly despair for him and for members of his family, but I also have to say that I consider him to be naive and inexperienced and for these reasons, to have compromised himself to the extent that he did, he should not have been offered nor should he have accepted a position as sensitive as that of Minister for Defence.
We have heard much about the innocence of James Pius Clarke, and we heard it again from Deputy Cowen. James Pius Clarke was a self-admitted member of the IRA. He was convicted twice in this State in connection with IRA crimes and was convicted in Northern Ireland for attempted murder. In the Maze Prison he was a member of the Provisional IRA group and he escaped as part of that group. He would not have been allowed to escape unless he had been very closely involved in that group. When free, he reinvolved himself in IRA activity, including a gun battle on the Donegal-Fermanagh border in which two IRA men and a member of the security forces were killed. In Portlaoise Prison he was a self-admitted IRA member and was admitted to the IRA group in that prison. The fact is that Clarke was not only a member but a prominent member of the IRA and part of the leadership of the IRA in that part of our country. I know from long experience — which Deputy McDaid did not have at that time, but I sincerely hope he has learned since — that there can be no ambivalence in relation to the use of violence to achieve political objectives. I would not describe myself as a black or white politician, but this is one issue where there are only two sides; black or white, for or against. One cannot be a spectator, particularly if one is a public representative. When asked about his involvement with Clarke and known IRA supporters outside the Four Courts, Deputy McDaid is quoted in The Irish Times today as saying: “I travelled down on Monday, and that happened to be Tuesday and I happened to be there purely as a spectator outside the court”. Let me say to Deputy McDaid that he just cannot happen to be there in the company of those who have murdered, destroyed and maimed and who seek to overthrow the democratic institutions on this island, North and South. Deputy McDaid was naive to believe otherwise and, unfortunately for him, he is now paying the penalty.
As I said, Deputy McDaid was inexperienced and nave. These factors alone might be considered sufficient to debar him from a most sensitive high office but the appointment was offered to him by someone who is neither nave nor inexperienced; someone who because of personal experience is more qualified than anyone in this House or probably anyone in Government in the history of this State to know of the sensitivity of the position of Minister for Defence who, because of his own deep involvement in searching for a solution to the Northern Ireland problem, should be aware of the perception of this appointment in Northern Ireland, Britain and elsewhere. I would like to say directly to the Taoiseach — perhaps he is watching on the monitor — and if not to the Tánaiste——
The Deputy should address his remarks through the Chair.
I cannot begin to understand how someone of his experience could be guilty of such misjudgment and irresponsibility. That is what it is, massive misjudgment and irresponsibility.
My time is running out, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. There have been many attacks on my Fine Gael colleagues for raising and concentrating on this matter. I, like them, have only one defence, we have done what we were elected to this House to do. Our democratic institutions must be protected and must be protected with credibility. Whatever may be said about this appointment, it certainly lacked credibility. It lacked credibility even on those benches over there, despite the noises that some of them are making. If we had not focused on this matter, others outside this House, outside this State would have deserved the laceration we would have received from the abdication of our duty had we not raised it in the way that we have in this House.
There is one consolation for the people we represent. A large number of them were in despair last Saturday night over the meeting which you, Sir, and other Fianna Fáil Deputies attended in this building. There were many people who had hoped——
Deputy, I was not there as Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I did not suggest that, Sir, but you were there.
Of course I was and I was very happy to be there.
It was your duty to be there, I am not criticising you in that respect. As I said, there were many people in despair who had hoped for an alternative from within the Government ranks but who found out last Saturday night that no such alternative was forthcoming. They need not despair, there is an alternative, the only alternative. The sooner we on these benches get the opportunity to provide that alternative——
This is the comic coming out.
——the better for all of the people of this nation.
I might have to remind Deputy Currie of a conversation I had with him in 1969.
"I love you Charlie."
If Deputy Briscoe wishes to do that now, that is fair enough with me.
The Deputy has reformed himself. He used to be in the group of 22.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 84; Níl, 78.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Blaney, Neil Terence.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Bell, Michael.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and D. Ahern; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Howlin.
Question declared carried.