Vol. 413 No. 1
16 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Labour if he will outline the average industrial wage for (a) men and (b) women at the latest date for which figures are available; if he has any plans to reduce the differential; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
The average weekly industrial wage for men and women in March 1991 the latest date for which statistic are available, indicated that men earned an average weekly industrial wage of £266.79 and women earned £157.85. Female weekly earnings represent 59 per cent of male earnings. However when the hourly earnings of male and female workers are considered the differential is significantly lower. Women earn 68 per cent of the male hourly rate in all industries.
The differences in industrial earnings derive from a wide range of factors: on average, women work five and a half hours per week less than their male counterparts; other factors such as wage rates, overtime payments, shift and unsocial hours premia, payment by results, bonuses and payment for length of service.
Recognising the persistence of sizeable male-female earnings differentials my Department, in conjunction with the Employment Equality Agency, have commissioned research in an effort to determine the reasons for the differentials. The aim is to identify those factors which account for the wage gap, such as differences in education and experience and to isolate any residual factors which may be attributable to discrimination. I hope this research project which is being undertaken by the Economic and Social Research Institute will provide valuable indicators and help to guide future policy in this area.
I propose to bring forward proposals to amend the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974 and the Employment Equality Act, 1977 in order to increase their effectiveness. However, legislation alone is not enough to redress current imbalances either in wages or in opportunities for career advancement. The most positive strategy lies in creating more and better opportunities for women and in removing barriers encountered by women in the labour market. This is why I will be directing attention to the promotion of positive action which I believe is the way forward. The Employment Equality Agency and state training agencies have a vital role to play in this process especially in providing a lead to employers in both the public and the private sector.
Would the Minister agree that people outside this House would be shocked to learn that there is still a gap of almost £109 per week in the average industrial earnings as between men and women? We are talking about earnings, not wages, because the Minister has referred to the hourly rate as being somewhat better than that. Does the Minister know, for example, that that ratio is almost identical to what it was ten years ago and that all our efforts in the interim have produced very little? Finally, does the Minister agree that he is wasting his time doing studies on education and skills rates? I suggest that there is no difference in terms of education and skills, or marginally, maybe to the benefit of women, but that the issue is essentially one of equality and that his promised revision of the anti-discrimination legislation in relation to pay should be a priority if we are to make any impact on why women, ten years later, continue to be on merely 59 per cent of average male earnings. It is a disgrace and I am sure the Minister would agree with that.
I certainly have to express my concern, to say the least my impatience, with the fact that there are such differentials. I want to assure the Deputy that one of my priorities is to work to reduce that differential, if not to help it to disappear altogether. It is true that there has not been much progress in this area. In 1985 women's average earnings represented 58.5 per cent of men's and now represents 60 per cent; that is not major progress. At the same time it would be wrong to point to discrimination, active or otherwise, as being one of the major factors. The whole social conditioning, the background, the type of low skilled work that so many young women have been engaged in, and some of them exploited, brings down the average very considerably. That is something we must address directly.
The second thing is that the nature of training and expectation is different. The expectation, traditionally, has been that women would do different types of jobs. I hope this does not sound patronising but it is clear that women are at least as well qualified as men, if not better qualified. I have no doubt that it is as much a matter of social attitudes as anything else. I want to assure the Deputy that addressing this problem will be one of my priorities during my period as Minister.
Would the Minister agree that the way to tackle this problem is not in the piecemeal way it has been tackled to date but by introducing a statutory minimum wage which would rid us of the scourge of these differentials and exploitation of women which has prevailed in Irish society down through the years?
That is true in a sense. I mentioned earlier the exploitation of low paid workers in a range of areas, young women particularly. My Department have been looking at this problem actively. It is not always possible to find a male comparator in an equal pay claim because up to now some of the work being undertaken by men at certain levels of industrial activity and otherwise is of a different nature, with a higher skill component than that undertaken by women. If habits and practices up to now show a differential that is unacceptable, let us not run away with the idea that that is a basis of deliberate discrimination. We have to change the approach to see that women will be employed in a wider range of jobs and in better jobs, including the highest technical and managerial positions which they have demonstrated they are capable of doing. We have to change the whole focus of expectation and the time is right for that.
Would the Minister agree that there is a need for a campaign to move away from sexual stereotyping in particular areas of job opportunities? Would the Minister equally agree that there is a need to encourage a form of positive discrimination in favour of women in the context of promotions, that an example could be set in that regard in the higher echelons of the Civil Service and that such example would encourage the private sector?
Finally, would the Minister agree that the position of women is equally stereotyped within politics? There is only one woman within the Government, from the major party, Fianna Fáil, and there is not a single woman on the junior benches, other than from the Progressive Democrats. Neither the Labour Party nor The Workers' Party have a single woman representing a constituency in this House. Would the Minister agree that positive discrimination should be operated in the area of politics as well as in the workplace?
From the many views I have heard from women in this area I understand that the last thing they want to rely on is what is called the token woman. That is not the way the women of this nation want to be vindicated. When I first started to practise at the Bar there were four ladies practising at the Bar; the perception was that women could not succeed as barristers. It has now emerged that, in less than 30 years, almost 50 per cent of barristers are women. They include some of the most distinguished practitioners, including, I am glad to say, our distinguished President. I see no reason the same cannot happen elsewhere.
The Minister should cite that as an example to the socialists on my right who are shedding crocodile tears. They do not have one single woman TD on their benches.
The Deputy should not point his finger at this side of the House. We could tell him some home truths.
Does the Minister agree, in respect of the statement he made, with which I agree, incidentally, that this problem is due significantly to the concentration in low paid employment, virtually exclusively, of women, and that this ought to give him an added impetus to revise the legislation? Specifically, does he agree that the requirement in the existing legislation, that a woman make a comparison with a male comparator, misses the entire point and that while this provision and requirement remains women, predominantly, in low paid employment can expect no help from the legislative infrastructure?
I made the point that because of this anomaly of having such a comparative basis the wrong conclusion can be reached. We are looking at that matter. I do not think it is necessary for me to repeat what the Deputy has said in the question as I have already acknowledged that this is an issue which requires immediate and constant examination and action. I have assured the Deputy that this will be a feature of the programme during my period as Minister.
A final question from Deputy Kavanagh.
In congratulating the Minister on his appointment to his new position can I suggest to him that he take a look at the joint industrial councils in the Department when he may find that one of the biggest anomalies, in relation to the wage levels for women and men is to be found in the hotel and catering industry? A joint industrial council could make progress in raising the incomes of women to those of men in that industry. While I accept that he is a new man in the Department and that he should be given an opportunity to look at these areas, the joint industrial councils are attempting to achieve equality. Would the Minister like to comment on this matter?
I would be very glad to look at that matter or any of the other matters which the Deputies who have been more involved in this area, and who for this reason have more experience than myself, bring to my attention. In that context, I invite Deputies to point out any anomalies injustices or discriminatory practices which they think have become a feature, if not deliberately a feature. I would be very glad to look into these. I think, together, we will be able to advance the cause on which we are all agreed.
Question No. 17, please.
May I ask a brief supplementary?
I was hoping to deal with Deputy John Browne's question. He has been waiting patiently for a long time.
May I ask the Minister if he has given any thought to the role minimum pay legislation can serve in this area and whether it will be an element in the assault on low pay for women that he will consider?
All I can say is that I recognise at present that it could be a factor, but the Deputy will understand that I could not at this stage, two days into the job, say that I have come to even a preliminary conclusion. I certainly would not dismiss it.
I give the Minister notice that I will come back to it next month.
I thought the Deputy would.
