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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Dec 1991

Vol. 414 No. 4

B & I Line Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This debate is very limited so I will not speak unduly long. Before we adjourned I was dealing with the issue of the existing board of the B & I. Whatever may be perceived about hostile or non-hostile parties by the Minister, the fact is that the board appointees and the chairman were Government appointees, and it is not as if we had a change of Government in the last six months. Will the Minister confirm that the board were seriously upset at the way in which the Minister treated them and that they placed before the Minister eight points outlining in detail their dissatisfaction with the way matters have been handled by the Minister and the Government? Will the Minister also confirm that today the board refused to finalise the deal without further considertion, despite a request by the Minister. The Minister will have an opporutunity at the end of Second Stage to reply to these points. I noted from the Irish Times of today's date that the board sent a letter to the staff of the B & I line expressing serious reservations about the handling of the matter. When the Minister's board are condemning the Ministers we must the gravest doubts about this procedure.

On Committee Stage, we will table amendments to seek that SI306 will be included as it is in section 6 of the Sugar Company Act so that there will be a transfer of undertakings for the staff involved. We will also seek a condition that any ships would always have to sail under the Irish flag. We will also seek to modify the right over the borrowings so that there will be some leverage clause for a certain period to enable the Government to ensure protection for the participents in the pension fund. We also want the question of board representation to be looked at and in relation to indemnification, as outlined in section 4 by the Minister for Finance against companies liabilities, this would have to have the sanction of the Dáil.

Fine Gael have no idelogical objection to part privatisation of the B & I Line. We do not have any particular objection to Irish Ferries as a suitable partner for the Government in such a merger but we are afraid that the price is too low, that it would only involve a parial sale and that to sell 100 per cent of the shares at this time is unsatisfactory. We also feel that the tender process and the circumstances of "behind closed doors" dealings was unsatisfactory and that the way that event were handled in the latter days of the deal in relation to the management staff buy-out will lead to industrial relations difficulties. We feel also that the Government have not made a serious attempt either directly or under the auspieces of the Labour Relations Commision or the Labour Court to try to reach consensus in relation to rationalisation or to set up a reasonable platform on which consensus could be reached on industrial relations issues. We are not satisfied that disposal will bring about the best future shipping strategy for this country. There are many loose ends in relation to the small print, in relation to warrenties and liabilities, in relation to discounts and in relation to other aspects of the deal which need to be cleared up. We do not wish the resources available under the pension fund surplus to be a windfall gain for Irish Ferries and we want the staff to be protected. For all of those reasons we are obliged to oppose this Bill on Second Stage. Given that the Government have a majority, we will be seeking to substantially amend the Bill on Committee Stage.

The Labour Party are strongly opposed to the hastily arranged sale of the B & I Line for a giveaway price. Apart from opposing this Billwe will express our opposition to the principal of privatisation of B & I as the appropriage policy in the case of this company. The indecent, almost obscene, haste with which the Government are pushing this Bill thorough the House is an insult not only to the Members of the House but to the management and workers who have tried to assemble a package which would benefit this country and would save the maximum number of jobs.

My first concern relates to the acquisition by the Irish Continental Group of the former Irish Shipping subsidiary, ICL. There was every reason from the national viewpoint to have ICL incorporated into the B & I company. The Irish Continental Group have on their board two directors of NCB and NCB played a major role in the formation of that group. Last March a memorandum of agreement for the sale of the B & I Line was agreed between the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications and ICG. Will the Minister say what role, if any, NCB have played in either acting for ICG in the formulation of their bid, or for the Department of Tourism, Transport and Communications? Just as ICL was conveniently parachuted into the Irish Continental Group, we have the same game, set and match approach of the B & I company, a company which, within a couple of years, will increase in value by a multiple of two to five times the price the Minister has accepted. If we took the proposed sale of the B & I Line on the narrow ground of maximising the benefit to the Exchequer, the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communcations would not now recommend the sale in so precipitous a manner. The B & I Line are currently earning profits of just over £2 million per annum, a turnaround from the major losses experienced from 1981 to 1987. The workers have contributed considerably to this turnaround by accepting pay freezes, and by the major increase in productivity over the past two years. The projected profit for 1992, of which the minister is aware, is £4 million. How can the Minister justify selling this company for a mere £8 million plus debt write-offs of £36 million? The Minister has responded to questions on proposals to privatise State bodies under his control with bland statements that discussions have taken place and that there are no plans to privatise any of the State companies. In the case of B & I the Minister cannot be accused of planning, for what we are talking about here is the equivalent of a liquidation sale with State owned assests being offered at knock down prices.

Another major flaw in the proposal to dispose of the company for £8 million is that this valuation ignores the £14 million surplus in the pension fund of which the Minister is making a gift to ICG who can utilise if for investment purposes or pocket it following the break up of the B & I routes.

I have further question on assurances and grantees or promises included in the terms of sale in relation to a probable claim against the B & I company arising out of its use of facilities at Pembroke. My understanding is that a compenstion claim will be sucessful against the B & I and I would like to know who will pick up the tab.

I want to turn now to the manner in which the management and staff buy-out proposal was treated by the Minister who is part of a Government who claim to be in social partnership with the ICTU. My understanding is that, because of the Minister's deadline, one of the Danish companies who were part of the original proposal, were forced to withdraw as they simply did not have enough time to consider the structure of the equity and loan finance of the proposed new company with the management staff. Nevertheless. Allied Irish Bank Corporate Finance were sufficiently confident of the viability of the proposals that they were prepared to back this bid without the involvement of the Danish interest. That poses a question. If a company like Allied Irish Bank would come up front with this type of money, what was that bid all about?

The Government are supposedly in the business of job creation. In this context alone, how can they justify backing the ICG bid which proposes to lay off 100 more staff than the staff management buy-out proposal? It should be remembered that it was the Minister who initiated the management/staff buy-out proposal. It would appear now that he has turned his back on this proposal.

The tremendous effort that has gone into the revamping of the B & I company by the employes over the past number of years must be noted and remarked upon. The turnaround from an operating loss of £3.5 million in 1987 to a profit of £2.5 million this year must prove to any fair minded commentator the calibre and the determination of the workforce at B & I to save that company. This workforce have proved their ability, despite the difficulties that surround shipping today. Many of these employees have given long years of service to the company and it is only fair that they now be given a proper hearing which would take into consideration the full facts surrounding their case.

The Minister's reaction to question in the Dáil last week was indicative of the Government's attitude to the plight of the unemployed when, in a rather cavalier manner, he dismissed the 100 job diference between both offers. I would like to remind him that any job loss and any job created or saved is vital in the present economic climate and to shrug off the difference is something that must be deplored.

Did the analysis of the ICG bid carried out by the Minister or the Department of Finance include the additional Exchequer cost of 100 more people claiming social welfare and no longer paying tax? My estimate is that we are talking of an Exchequer loss of approximately £0.5 million per annum. That should have been deducted from the price paid by ICG in assessing the merits of their bid over the managment employee buy-out.

I note that the Minister is a supporter of free competition. What is to prevent Irish car ferries developing a private monopoly on the sea routes between Ireland and the UK, and even between the continent and this country? We are now totally reliant on private transport carriers to meet the requirements of our suppliers and individuals in terms of sea transport. Fianna Fáil must have a very short memory if they do not remember that the acquisition of B & I in the sixties from the private sector was due to their failure as a private entity to meet the requirements of this country. What assurances are there that B & I, which operate a number of strategic routes which are crucial to both trade and tourism, will not ultimately end up in foreign ownership? What assurances or guarntees are there that the necessary investment will be available for fleet replacement and modernisation? What assurances are there that safety will not become a secondary consideration in an under-capitalised private commercial operation?

When we consider that our Taoiseach is quite properly stressing the need for new policies to address peripherality in the context of economic and social cohesion at Maastricht, what policy is guiding the Minister for Tourism, Tarnsport and Communications to ensure this country is fully serviced in terms of access to transport by sea? Within the context of a European Community we are the only island nation without a direct link to mainland Europe and the decision to sell B & I to a commercial enterprise leaves us in the vulnerable position of not having any State controlled sea transport between Ireland and Europe.

There is a further aspect of the extreme haste with which this deal is being pushed through which must be considered. The Government and the Confederation of Irish Industry have made a strong case that access to transport should qualify for Structural Funds assistance. I have no doubt that this case will be met after Maastricht, but who will benefit most? It will not be the Irish travelling public, the workers or B & I but the sharegholders in ICG who will receive European funds and will enjoy the capital growth which the new assets will generate.

This morning's news of the Dutch proposals put forward in Maastricht for funds to be made available to countries like Ireland for transportation is an indication that that is the method that will be used in the future. Money will be coming from the Structural Funds and ICG will benefit enormously. Maybe that is one of the reasons there is such haste to get this Bill through the House.

I have deliberately and quite consciously dealt with the sale of the B & I company from the very narrow perspective of value for money to the Exchequer. I have no doubt but that in two to three years time the verdict will be that the Minister preseded over a somewhat murky deal, admittedly with the backing of legislation in this instance. Nevertheless, questions will be asked in two to three years time why this happened.

I would like now to deal with the interests of all the workers, managers and staff. The workers in the B & I company have been conned, trussed up and sold off like pieces of furniture at bargain prices in a Christmas sale. Facts is often stranger than fiction. I am sure any of the B & I employees who was watching the film "Wall Street" on RTE Network 2 will identify with the workers who saw financial vultures attempting to raid their pension fund after promising them job security and a share of the profits in return for wage sacrifices. That film was fiction but tonight's Bill before the Dáil and the deal for the B & I is not fiction, it is fact. I am sure the B & I workers will be forgiven if they identify the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, Deputy Brennan, as the villain of the piece, as Gordon Gekko, the guy who did all the wheeling and dealing. The Minister is the fall guy for the Government. What he is proposing in the Bill is that we legitimatise private greed and its triumph over the interests of the public, the taxpayer and the worker.

The Minister's concern for the workers' interests was exemplified by the fact that the worker directors in the B & I company read in the newspapers about his decision to hand over the company to ICG. The trade union representatives who had worked night and day to bring forward the staff-management buy-out proposal were equally shafted. At the stroke of a pen their conditions of employment, which have already been worsened, will now be cancelled with no guarantees for the future in relation to jobs, pay and conditions.

Redundancy seems to be the Government's main growth industry. At every opportunity the State companies were cajoled, treatened and, finally, forced, as in the case of RTE, into laying off workers. The same kind of sleveen apporach has been adopted in the case of An Post. This House is sick and tired of the Tadhg-an-dá-thaobh apporach of the Minister on privatisation. The Labour Party know that he is the operational manager of the Government's privatisation programme. Perhaps he is just doing a job — it is not one I would like myself — but he never misses an opportunity to reassure the business community that privatisation is being considered.

This hidden agenda to hand over the company to the Minister Deputy Brennan's friends in ICG was the only agenda from the start. Furthermore, there was a nice piece of insider trading in that the Government were privy to the private discussions on possible EC Structural Funds investment in sea transport. I predict that tomorrow night, after the Bill has been given a Second Reading, the Taoiseach will be announcing a victory, the establishment of a separate cohesion fund, and I have little doubt that the directors and shareholders of ICG will be euphoric in the knowledge that further investment by them will be bankrolled from this fund. I also have little doubt that the Taoiseach and his Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications will make a strong case in the years ahead that any matching requirement by ICG be weakened if not removed.

In the words of the Taoiseach, the Government are considering privatising every company in the State sector. The people are entitle to ask and deserve a reply to the question, in whose interests is this disgraceful policy being pursued. I say that it is in the interests of the stockbrokers, the bankers, the financial advisers and probably those who attend Cairde Fáil dinners. It is not being pursued in the interests of the publc, the economy or the workers. They may have got rid of Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom but no doubt she will be consoled by the fact that her policies are alive and kicking and being pursued by this Coalition Government of Fiann Fáil and the Progressive Democrats.

She is alive and well and living in the guise of the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communication.

I have no doubt that tomorrow and in the coming days the workers who have genuine fears in regard to their future will reach flashpoint because there are glaring gaps in the deal. The workers and management have very forcibly expressed their genuine fears to Members on all sides of the House, both Government and Opposition Deputies. I have spoken to members of all the trade unions involved and they have expressed their anger that the Bill is being hastily pushed through the House. Many people are cynical about politicians today. The last thing we need is a guillotine. No damage would be done if we were allowed to tease this legislation out, with full consultation, to ensure that the question marks hanging over the legislation are removed. I ask the Minister at this late stage not to restrict the debate on this very important legislation.

I have spoken to some people who have given long service to B & I and they have indicated to me that they would refer to opt out rather than be involved in a deal with ICG. Given the magnificent achievement of the workforce in turning the company around, it it not too much to ask that their case be givena fair hearing.

The Minister said that ICG had indicated to him that their plans for B & I over the next five years included the retention of all existing B & I shipping routes; the provision of extra capactiy on the m.v. Leinster; the sourcing of an improved vessel to replace the m.v. Munster on the Rosslare-Pembroke route; and upgrade of facilities throughout B & I; the replcement of B & I's container ships; the provision of long term sustainable employment in B & I and share ownership for B & I employees. We all have our aspirations and want the best for everyone but I am afraid that this is not good enough at this stage.

We have a duty to go through the Bill line by line and if amendments are needed they will be forthcoming. While we may not have the numbers to vote the Bill down on Second Stage we will make our views clearly known in the House and to the public. Rushed legislation is bad legislation. A good example is the legislation relating to the rod licence. Four years on we have still not resolved that problem. At this stage we should look very carefully at what we are doing, given that employees of the company have shown goodwill. Their good work could not be set at nought. Indeed we could end up with industrial relations problems which would have serious repercussions for many years to come.

Finally, if labour relations explode — as I said, workers are reaching flashpoint — the blame will lie with the Government and the Minister who will have to accet responsibility. If one tries to railroad legislation through the House and push workers to the ultimate they will react. I fear for the future of the company.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann believing:

(1) that the proposed sale of the B & I Line to Irish Continental Group is not in the interests of the company, the employees, or the tourism and transport needs of the country,

(2) that the Government should have accepted the proposed management/worker buy-out,

(3) that the failure to make provision for the retention of any public share in the company means that the Government will not be in any position to influence crucial decisions which may have a major impact on transport and tourism,

declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill."

The Deputies were fairly quick to agree to it last Thursday.

What is the Deputy talking about? Has he a problem in relation to our party or the Government party? Is he speaking for the main Opposition party?

Is Fine Gael the main Opposition party?

That is correct.

God help Ireland.

Deputy Byrne without interruption.

I require your assistance, a Cheann Comhairle, to keep the so-called official Opposition quite. We are dealing essentially with retrospective legislation. The company was sold before this debate commenced. The outrageous fact is that a sweetheart deal has been done, signed, sealed and con-summated. The Minister is pushing the Bill through over the Christmas period with a declared and stated intention to hand the B & I over to the Irish Continental Group without seriously considering the unique staff-management buy-out proposals. It is, to say the least, ignorant, arrogant and devoid of any sense of recognition of the incredible efforts and sacrifices made by the B & I workforce, particularly in the years of the company's most difficult times. The Minister has as much sympathy and respect for the B & I workforce — many of whom will remember him when they are drawing the dole — as the butchers have for the turkeys they are slaughtering this Christmas.

I will explain to the Minister why the management and staff of the B & I are angry with him. They rose to the challenges with which the company were faced down through the years; they agreed to staff numbers being reduced and surrendered pay rises to which they were entitled as their contribution to the survival of the line. Very few workers anywhere have made as many sacrifices as the B & I workers so that the company would survive. They were happy they managed to turn the company's financial position around and they were proud that, through their efforts, the shipping line made on operational profit of £2.5 million last year. When the workers rose enthusiastically to the final challenge as a united workforce with full union backing the Minister rejected them in a cold and brutal manner. That is why the management and staff of the B & I are so angry; the Minister betrayed them.

The Bill is the Minister's obituary of B & I. Like the eerie sight of the m.v. Kilkenny lying mournfully on its side with all its human tragedy, it did not have to happen. Both tragedies could have been avoided. I ask the Minister to think again and to turn back from the course he is taking of privatising B & I. By reopening negotiations with B & I workforce he should reconsider their management-staff buy-out offer and allow them more time to prove to him the benefits and adgantages their plan has to offer.

Why is the Minister so determined to privatise B & I/ Let us look at the remarkable turnaround in the fortunes of the line since 1988 which was possible only because of the incredible efforts and sacrifices of the staff and management of B & I at the time. Up to 1988 the company were going through a very difficult period; they were faced with mounting financial losses which required the implementation of a plan of action involving major restructuring which had across-the board support from the company's workforce which included a reduction in staff numbers from 1,464 to 899. They agreed a pay cut of 5 per cent and a pay freeze until July 1989. These were voluntary, unique sacrifices. Even by today's standards in industrial relations, they are still unique and are recorded in Irish labour history. As a result of these actions and other measures, the compnay's performance improved substantially during 1988 and this favourable trend continued during 1989. The performance of B & I during 1989 included an upturn in freight and passenger traffic and improved financial outturn. They also had a good industrial relations record.

The plan of action, as structured and implemented in 1988, covered five year period. As we come towards the end of that period everybody, including the Minister, must agree that the turnaround in the company's fortunes has been remarkable. My party coleagjue, Deputy Rabbitte, in his cpacity at the time as a trade union negotiator, was prominently associated with the negotiations which brought about the plan. As he will verify, the plan was exceptionally painful for everybody concerned. It was a unique trial relations; not only did it involve the loss of approximately 600 jobs, it guaranteed industrial peace in the company for the duration of the plan and, most importantly, there was a pay standstill for a period of three years for July 1986.

Unprecedentedly, the redmaining employees accepted a 5 per cent reduction in their wages. It goes without saying that this period represented a painful experience for the workforce. They made these sacrifices. not to facili tate the Minister or the Government to make a decision to privatise their company, but as part of a total commitment to the survival of the B & L line. This participation and the agreements of the B & I workforce enabled the company toi return operating profits of £1.8 million and £2.8 million in 1988 and 1989 respecttively.

However, the company were crucified by the equity ratio and the extraordinary burden of debt on interest payments. It is interesting to noe that on 14 March 1990, during the Second Stage debate on the Bill, the Minister said;

I would emphasise in the regard that were it not for the burden of interest charges on historic debt arising form losses accumulated by the B & I prior to 1998 the company would, at this stage, be recording net profits ... I also think it important at this point to record that the financial results of the B & I have been better than those envisaged in 1988 when the affairs of the B & I were last debated comprehensively in this House.

It was envisaged at the time that the company would require £17 million in equity in 1998 and 1989. In fact, the Exchequer was called on to invest only £1 million in the B & I over that period, £6 million less than orginally envisaged. This outcome is due in no small measure to the joint efforts of management and staf in turning the company around. Not only have the company turned around financially but they have also gained increased busuness in the ro-ro and lo-lo activities. In each case B & I business grew significantly and even at present further increses are envisaged. For example, B & I made a significant contributiion to the Irish tourism industry by carrying into Ireland in the region of 320,000 visitors, with 70,000 foreign cars. There are important strategic and economic reasons for retaining B & I in the public sector for the foreseeable future I ask the Minister to be this mind: I will address these issues at a later stage.

B & I carry 43 per cent of all Irish exports. With the opening of the Channel Tunnel car traffic from the Continent to Great Britain will increase and Ireland will act as a natural magnet for these tourists. I have no doubt that many of those people will be an anxious to travel to Ireland. It is, therefore, likely that there will be an increased demand for shipping services between Britian and Ireland, and B & I would be capable of taking up this projected demand.

Was the fatal dye cast for privatisation by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Coalition at Cabinet meetings prior to March 1990? Clearly it was and the record will show, even at that time, who the Government intended should acquire B & I. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, in The Irish Times 13 March 1990 in reference to the B & I Bill, which provided for a £6 million cash investment in B & I, was quoted as follows: “The Minister also expressed his disappointment about the need for the Government to make provision to inject a further £6 million into the B & I Group”. He said it was very unsatisfactory and was matter that he has great misgivings about. He added that the “would love to see the end of it as a problem”, with the ideal being that the Irish Continental Group take over the company.

The Minister may remember reading headlines at the time in The Irish Times such as “Secret Shipping Merger Plan Shelved”. The Irish Times stated that the £6 million injection was in preparation of the company for privatisation. According to that paper, discussions had been under way secretly. It stated: “Secret meger proposals between the State owned B & I line and the privately owned Irish Continental Group have set aside while the latter seek clarification from the Government of its plan to inject a further £6 million into the loss making B & I”. It is interesting that Deputy O'Malley openly voiced his support for the purchase of B & I by the Irish Continental Group and that the Irish Continental Group stood back in the sure knowledge, given the known political commitment for privatisation by both Deputy O'Malley and Deputy S. Brennan, that another £6 million sweetener would be provided. That day has now arrived.

There are key strategic issues at stake in what is proposed in the Bill. There is every reason, given Ireland's peripherality and with the ever increasing need in the future for a reliable outlet to Europe and Great Britain for the movement of people and freight, that the Government should have a financial stake, in order to make an input at board level, in what amounts to our nation's jugular vein, our shipping links. In 1965 the Government clearly considered this to be of significant importance and they took steps to acquire what has now become the B & I Line. There is now an even stronger case to be made for a controlling interest by the Irish authorities in the question of who runs our shipping lines to Great Britain and Europe. This controlling interest could be by way of a golden share by way of the company entering into a bond with the State which would guarantee continuity of service, by written agreements or legislative proposals. The Bill makes no provision for any stake by the Irish State which would be required to ensure that strategic shipping services and routes are kept in Irish hands or, indeed, that they be retained.

The economic lifeline afforded to Ireland as a trading and tourism nation is dependent on shipping. The southern corridor is a crucially important link for tourism and trade. Those who live in the capital city are more than conscious of its importance to industrial infrastructure in the city and of the role the B & I play in sustaining a viable, healthy, commercial and industrial life in the capital. The B & I would give a guarantee of continuity of service in the central corridor that cannot be given by a privately owned and controlled company whose business it is to make a profit for their shareholders and, if they so wish, sell to shareholders outside the country, thereby weakening further any controls the national Government may wish to apply.

B & I, contrary to some opinions, are not a lame duck company. They are a profitable company and have been so since 1988. Next year's trading profits are expected to be £4 million and, as I said, last year they made a trading profit of £2.5 million. Of course, debt crucified the company down the years. The Government are prepared to scrub a debt of £35 million and sell the company for between £5 million and £8 million, having invested £106 million of taxpayers' money in it. To do that while not retaining a golden share or a controlling interest would be a national scandal, particularly because once B & I's debt burden is removed and rationalisation savings are made in the company as proposed by the ICG and the MSBO, B & I would be an extremely profitable shipping group.

Let us consider the increased tourist traffic that will be generated with the opening of the Channel Tunnel. The attractions of Ireland as a holiday destination for mainland Europeans driving through the tunnel to England will make this island a more enticing location for these tourists. Therefore, it is conceivable that demand in the future for increased capacity on drive-on drive-off ferries will be the order of the day, and B & I would be the natural benefactor.

Let us consider B & I's competitor, Sealink. It is interesting that the Minister should refer to Sealink in his contribution. He said—he used this as an example as to why we should not be concerned about privatisation—it was noteworthy that B & I's main competitor, Sealink, were sold some years ago by British Rail and have more recently been acquired by the Swedish based Stena Group. I do not know what point the Minister was trying to prove.

He clearly had not read yesterday's Financial Times which looked more closely at Sealink. Sealink are owned by a Swedish company who are threatening to close them down. They operate in competition with B & I on the Rosslare-Fishguard and Dún Laoghaire-Holyhead routes while B & I operate the Dublin-Holy-head and the Rosslare-Pembroke routes. Will the Minister agree it would be madness for the Government to abandon their role in the company now, particularly with the international developments taking place in Sealink? The Government should recognise and grasp the wonderful commercial openings being created for B & I at this point in their history.

We must reflect again on the timescale set by the Minister. The ICG have been in discussion with the Minister since the summer of 1989. The memorandum of agreement was signed on behalf of the Minister for Finance and ICG on 28 February 1991 and the sale to ICG was to be completed by 16 August 1991. Only in mid-August 1991 did the chairman of B & I, acting on behalf of independent board members, express the view that the sale of the company to ICG did not represent good value. Although ICG had the opportunity since July 1989 to buy out the B & I Line, they were reinvited by the Minister to submit an offer on 25 October, within two weeks of the deadline of 8 November 1991. The B & I management-staff consortium were also invited to compete for the first time. If one considers the time factor alone, ICG had a disproportionate time advantage over the MSBO in which to prepare their offer. The management-staff consortium submitted an amended offer at 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 December, but the Minister, after cursory consideration, rejected it. It is as clear as day follows night why the B & I workforce are angry: the unions, staff, and management were not given enough time to prepare their submission. Why did the Minister wish to rush through the deal? Why is he forcing the issue at this time? Why did he sign the share purchase agreement today before this Bill was debated in this House? Why was he today trying to intimidate the B & I board members to sign the share purchase agreement before the Bill even became law? We are seeking a great many answers in this debate.

The noble efforts of workers and management to put together a deal in a short time span resulted in Cabinet members clapping the lads on the back for the good job well done and telling them they were making history, yet at the same time also saying that their bid was not being accepted in spite of all the contributions made by staff in building up the company to what it is today. Their anger is quite rightly being directed at the Minister. The B & I corporate financial advisers are reported in the newspapers as saying that the two Danish companies backing the MBSO deal did not pull out, as reported, but were keen to increase their involvement. AIB Corporate Finance, which prepared the B & I SMBO's proposals are reported as saying:

At the last moment B & I changed its bid from a joint venture with the Danes to a 100 per cent staff and management bid because of a delay in completing a formal shareholders agreement with the Danish companies.

And that:

Given time a bid with improved Danish backing would have been presented.

Would the Deputy give the reference for that quotation?

I think it was The Sunday Business Post. They said:

ICG have succeeded in clinching what is regarded as one of the softest takeover deals in recent times.

Let us remember that this is the businessman's paper.

This deal is yet another classic example of a "sweetheart deal", which I find most reprehensible. My concern is shared by the B & I board and staff who quite legitimately are asking the Minister to explain why he did not consider options other than immediate sale which would give a better return to the Exchequer and there was not an effective process of competitive bids. They also wish to convey to the Minister their disappointment that he did not provide a forum in which the board, through the independent committee, could contribute to the process leading to decisions. They are also angry and dismayed and there is a widespread sense of disappointment at every level, from staff to management, at the manner in which the decision was made and announced.

We are now heading into what is usually a happy time for families — the Christmas season of goodwill. I will examine the implications of this deal for the B & I workforce. Did the Minister not consider the merit of the MSBO's proposals for jobs? Can he dismiss as unimportant the loss of 250 jobs, or can his mirror image, the Minister for "unemployment"— the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley — whose Ministery is usually associated with job creation, going out into the market place and generating jobs, and opportunities attracting foreign companies getting men off the dole, and getting the country moving? I am afraid the Minister has been a total failure in this regard; the Minister, Deputy O'Malley, has shown great enthusiasm for privatisation coupled with job losses and the history of privatisation in Ireland is invariably linked to job losses. Does either Minister consider that saving 100 extra jobs means that MSBO's proposals have merit. Many B & I workers must be asking themselves if all their sacrifices were in vain. They had not only agreed to shed 600 jobs for the company to survive but by their very survival, 250 more men and women are now destined to join the dole queues.

What will become of the £17 million surplus in the three pension funds? Will it also be handed over to ICG? Do B & I members not have the right to vote on what will happen to their pension money? What guarantees can the Minister give the workforce that practices in B & I under ICG will not revert to the pre-1987 position? Will he also give assurances in this House that the protection of the rights of individual staff members and the opportunities for staff participation will be guaranteed? When will we know the terms and the timing of the proposed completion of the sale to ICG?

Are there any proposals for industrial democracy? Will the new company be compelled to comply with modern industrial relations practices and allow trade union worker representation on the board of the company, as already exists in B & I? What promises are there to the workforce who, in the past, gave up pay increases and took reductions in wages, that their existing pay and conditions will not be adversely affected?

There are a large number of questions to be asked of the Minister if he is to mindlessly pursue this privatisation proposal. For example, what are the investment plans he has agreed with ICG? What are the details of the proposals? Would he inform the House what, if any, voluntary redundancy packages the workforce will be offered, with, sadly, 250 men and women facing the dole queues?

I see Deputy Stafford, who represents an inner city constituency and who is conscious of the role of the port and of B & I. I point to Fianna Fáil backbenchers, backbenchers who rely on working class support in Cork and in Dublin, and ask how any of them could support the Bill without the full knowledge of and a debate on the issues involved? For example, we should have clarified what was meant in the report featured in the Sunday Business Post of 8 December about the B & I buyers gaining by tax relief. What did that report mean when it stated that the Irish Continental Group would not have to pay corporation tax for two years following the purchase of the B & I Line because about £100 million in tax losses would be transferred as part of the deal? What did that same report mean when it stated that the ICG deal carried with it warranties and indemnities that could have a further cash exposure for the State at a later stage?

I do not pretend to know an awful lot about economics, but it does strike me that the Minister needs to explain more openly and in great detail not only to his own backbenchers but also to everyone in the House, just what kind of deal he has struck with ICG. I ask the Minister particularly to answer the question posed in the newspaper report about warranties and indemnities that could have further cash exposure for the State in the future. A simple reading of that statement to me implies that there is a likelihood that the State will not in fact receive the £8.5 million but will somehow end up being caught out — in the full knowledge of the Minister — with other liabilities further down the road. That question must be answered.

Again I look to the Fianna Fáil backbenchers who, as I said, relied so heavily on working class support and votes to get into the chamber in the first place, and ask them how they could support the Bill without knowing of, or having explained, a clearly defined investment programme? Such a programme should be spelt out in advance by any new partner or owner. There is also the question of security of tenure for those employees who elect to remain within the company. It will be important to know whether there is a guarantee to maintain the terms and conditions and company union agreements of B & I employees. More should be known about whether the Government at this stage intend to maintain a golden share in the new scenario and whether the industrial democracy that exists at present will be maintained.

I now wish to refer to the Minister's speech and in particular to the final sentence in his final paragraph:

I would also like to thank the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, with whom I share the same vision and goal for the development of a sound shipping industry which will sustain and expand employment for Irish mariners.

That the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Minister might see eye to eye will be a cause of some concern to workers — not only to workers in the B & I but also to workers in CIE for whom the Minister promises in the new year the fate now being handed out to B & I workers. So much for the Programme for Economic and Social Progress commitment to job creation. So much for the Irish Congress of Trade Unions' defence of the public sector. With such a trade union congress, who can find themselves comfortably on the same wavelength as any Minister in the present Coalition Government, the sad feelings of disillusionment experienced by so many ordinary union members are perfectly understandable.

I challenge the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to reject the claim made by the Minister that they share with him the same vision and goals. I challenge the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to reassure the workers in B & I that they do not support the Minister's proposals for them. I challenge the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to come out now in support of the workers in CIE who are facing privatisation as promised by the Minister in his Bus Competition Bill due in the new year and what we sadly see in the Minister's Christmas box to B & I. The CIE group of unions are, in the Minister's words, facing a bleak future, with the Minister's determination to privatise anything in which the State has a role.

The Minister has to be condemned for his attempt to excuse his role in using the management staff buy-out offer in some way or another to extract from ICG a better financial contribution. I place on record my belief that the Minister used the MSBO to get ICG to increase their bid. Without the MSBO, ICG would not have upped their offer of £6.5 million. The Minister used the MSBO as his stalking horse to edge on ICG to up their offer. He had already made a sweetheart deal with ICG. ICG knew that, the Minister knew it and ICG played the Minister along right up to the very end, right up to the expiry date of the memorandum of agreement, because they knew that they and they alone would be the only winners in the buy-out proposals. The Minister twisted their arm just a bit by viciously manipulating the scenario and involving the management staff buy-out offer at the eleventh hour, and he squeezed another £2 million out of ICG.

The record speaks for itself. It goes back two years, when the Minister's love relationship with the proposal to sell out the workers in B & I started.

The Government decision to sell the B & I Line to the Irish Continental Group is one of the worst this Administration have taken. Already it has been the subject of widespread criticism on the part of a variety of interests. I predict it will provoke even greater anger when the public begin to appreciate the size of the Christmas gift the Minister has given Irish Continental Lines. The manner in which the Minister took the decision and the contemptuous manner in which he dealt with worker/management buy-out has angered and alienated the workforce.

If the takeover goes ahead the new owners are likely to face a hostile management and workforce which is not what is needed if the company is to survive and prosper. The tragedy is that, through his obsessive ideological commitment to privatisation and his apparent refusal to accept that the workers and management could run their company successfully, the Minister may well turn out to be the person who will have finally torpedoed the B & I Line. What is happening in the case of the B & I Line is not even a normal type privatisation. Usually what happens in the case of privatisation is that a company's shares are floated and available for sale on the Stock Exchange so that those who have the money can buy them. That is what happened in the case of both the Irish Sugar Company and Irish Life. What is happening in the case of the B & I is a unique form of selective, privileged privatisation in which a State-owned company is to be sold lock, stock and barrel to a private company.

Nobody would claim that the B & I company was a shining example of a successful semi-State company. To put it mildly, the company have had a chequered career, some of their problems having been self-inflicted while others resulted from factors beyond the company's control. Some of those problems were set out in the report on the company produced by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial Semi-State Bodies. Among other problematic factors identified by that committee was over-expansion in the late seventies, adding enormously to their financial burden, major increases in fuel prices, general depression, intense competition, disruption of services caused by industrial disputes — by the way, mainly in the United Kingdom — and the reduction in air fares making sea travel a less attractive proposition for any passengers.

As the Minister always likes to remind the House, the company has cost the taxpayer a lot of money over the years. The total State involvement since it was bought by the State amounts to approximately £106 million, a lot of money by any standard. By the mid-eighties, resulting from these problems, the company was in a state of crisis. A rescue plan was drawn up calling for and receiving an exceptional level of commitment and sacrifice on the part of the workforce. Six hundred workers were made redundant, reducing the workforce from almost 1,500 to below 900. There was a three year pay freeze. In an unprecedented gesture the remaining workforce accepted a pay cut of 5 per cent.

The five year rescue plan has been exceptionally successful largely as a result of sacrifices on the part of the workforce and their enormous efforts. Since the rescue plan was adopted, the B & I have reported trading profits each year and would be in a healthy financial position now were it not for the high level of debt hanging over the company from previous years. From trading losses of £3.6 million in 1987, they returned trading profits of £1.76 million in 1988, £1.95 million in 1989, £1.59 million in 1990 and are expected to return profits of £2.5 million in the current year. The reward for their efforts in saving the company is that it is now to be primed for privatisation. Not alone that, but their proposed management/worker buy-out proposal has been rejected. They are to be handed over to a company whose only objective is the pursuit of profit, which has made it clear that there will be 250 compulsory redundancies, that there will be no room for any element of industrial democracy in the company and no guarantee given about the continuation of any routes.

In many respects the experience of the B & I workers is similar to that of the employees of the Irish Sugar Company. They, too, made tremendous sacrifices, accepted a huge level of redundancies and put great effort into restoring the company to profitability. They, too, were sacrificed to privatisation in a move that had nothing to do with meeting the needs of the workers or the public but rather was all about satisfying the avaricious demands of a group of senior executives and board members to accumulate even greater wealth. Given the experience of the workers in the B & I and the Irish Sugar Company, would it be surprising if public sector workers came to the conclusion that if one wants to avoid privatisation the last thing one should do is make any effort to make one's company successful.

Those who assume that privatisation is an automatic guarantee of success should look to the experience of Sealink in the United Kingdom. They operated as a successful, profitable company while owned by the British state. However, Thatcherite economic policy determined that it was offensive to have a state company which made profits and it was privatised. Initially it was sold to a Bermuda-based company, Sea Containers, and subsequently sold to the Swedish private firm, Stena. According to yesterday's Financial Times Sealink are now heading for losses of some £30 million in the current year and the company will be closed by the end of the month unless their workforce accept a drastic cost-cutting exercise.

The possibility of the closure of Sealink makes the prospect of the sale of B & I more serious still. With the completion of the channel tunnel in 1994, Ireland will be the only totally off-shore member of the EC, the only country totally dependent on sea and air links with other member states. The reliability of ferry and cargo services is absolutely crucial to our tourist industry and our position as a trading nation. Each year B & I carry approximately 300,000 passengers, the majority being tourists, and some 70,000 cars. They provide crucial cargo services to the Continent. If the company is handed over to Irish Continental Lines there is nothing the Government will be able to do to ensure the continuation of these services for example, if the new owners decide that certain routes are no longer profitable or that they can make greater profits by investing their money elsewhere, there will be nothing the Government or anybody else will be able to do to prevent them from so doing. For instance, if the company decide six months hence to sell the B & I to some other foreign company there will be nothing anybody can do to prevent it.

Even if one accepts the case for selling the B & I, it is astounding that the Government have not decided to retain a "golden share" which would have allowed it to influence the crucial decisions to be made about the company in the future. That was the course of action adopted when the Irish Sugar Company and Irish Life were sold off. Does the Minister consider that the B & I is of less strategic importance than the Irish Sugar Company or Irish Life? Even if the Government had taken an irrevocable decision that the B & I was to be sold off — and as we all know the sale to Irish Continental Lines was not the only option open to them — there was a viable proposition for a management/worker buy-out. After all, it was the combined effort of the management and workers which had put the B & I back into shipshape condition. Indeed, there is every evidence to suggest that that unique proposal would have meant a great success in their taking over the firm.

An earlier proposal on the part of management and workers had provided for the involvement of two Danish firms. The Minister used the non-participation by the Danes to effectively scupper the proposal. Even with the non-participation of the Danes the worker/management buy out would have been a viable proposition in many respects making it more attractive because it would have ensured 100 per cent Irish ownership. In addition, it would have ensured that the company would be run by the same team who had succeeded in turning it around. Given that the workers themselves would be putting up the money, and the proposal had the overwhelming support of the staff, very likely those involved would have left no stone unturned in making the buy-out a success. Instead, the workforce are now angry and disillusioned. They are convinced the Minister never gave their proposals any serious consideration. They believe, with good reason, he used their proposal simply to strengthen their bargaining position with Irish Continental Lines, and what a bargain they got.

The provisions of the Bill we are now being asked to pass will virtually wipe out the company's debts, the company and its assets being handed over to Irish Continental Lines for just £8 million. As I said earlier, The Irish Times described it as an exceptionally good deal for Irish Continental Lines, noting that once the B & I's debt burden is removed, when rationalising savings are effected, the B & I will be an extremely profitable shipping group. In addition, The Sunday Business Post, a paper not exactly known for a pro-worker or pro-State enterprise stance, said that the sale was made in undue haste and that, on the face of it, Irish Continental Lines had got a very good deal. The editorial stated that the £8.5 million price tag appears tiny in the context of what it could cost to assemble such a shipping line in current conditions. The Sunday Business Post also pointed out that ICG will not have to pay corporation tax for years because about £100 million in tax losses will be transferred as part of the deal. The newspaper puts a value of at least £20 million on the company which the Minister is presenting to ICG for £8.5 million.

What does this deal make of the solemn commitment given in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress that any change in the ownership structure of particular State companies will only take place if it is in the public interest and in the best interests of the company and their employees and following consultation with the social partners? The company and their employees clearly believe that what the Minister is proposing is not in their interest or in the public interest, yet the Government are going ahead. What consultation has there been with the social partners, especially with the trade union movement?

Lined up against the deal are all the Opposition parties in this House, the workers and management of the B & I, the board of the company, the trade union movement, most of the newspapers and the majority of those who use the services of the company. Lined up in favour are Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats and the board of Irish Continental Lines. This may make the Minister the hero figure he clearly wants to be among what has been described as the small golden circle who control so much of our commercial and business life. It also means he will be remembered by the workers and the trade union movement as the Minister for betrayal and treachery who considers the objective of enhancing the profits of Irish Continental Lines to be far more important than ensuring the permanence of sea routes to and from this country or protecting the jobs of workers who have done so much to save the company.

I will summarise briefly the position of The Workers' Party. We support the notion of the State being involved in the strategic shipping lines operating between Ireland and Great Britain and the Continent. We believe primarily there should be a golden share, some influence on the decisions that will have to be made at some future date, because of the nature of our island State. Realistically we are being faced with two options. One is the sale to ICG and the other, the preferred option, is the worker-management buy-out. Those of us who are politically astute should not be surprised that the Minister has opted to sell the company to ICG, with the resulting effects on the workforce of 250 men and women in B & I for whom the news is very bad this Christmas.

We will be fighting this Bill tooth and nail. We will not stop battling on this Bill and on the future proposals for the privatisation of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. With a bit of luck, the ICTU will be seen to be on the side of the workers in battling with the Minister on these issues. I thank the Chair for his indulgence.

The B & I Line is probably one of the most important enterprises not just in Dublin port but in Dublin generally and along the whole eastern seaboard. It provides a very important link to the UK, particularly through Holyhead, and to mainland Europe. Some years ago the B & I were a very fine company with six ships but today they own only one ferry and one cargo ship. Obviously they need investment. Those working in the company, their competitors and the people who use their services know that there is a shortage of shipping on the Irish Sea route. When an offer was made for the company it was incumbent on us all to consider it. Last year, when the management buy-out was suggested, there were to be 250 or 300 redundancies. The second offer involves fewer redundancies.

Let us look at the record of ICL. That company was launched in 1972 or 1973 and many of those who went to work there had been employees of Irish Shipping and had been put out of work by an act of a previous Government. I remember attending lectures about what a State company could and should do. We were told in the course of the lectures to look at the wonderful things Irish Shipping were doing. Shortly afterwards, they were bankrupt. Many people still suffer from the way that dreadful business was handled. Some of the former employees of Irish Shipping obtained good jobs with ICL on Irish-registered ships.

Before the problems started at B & I, it was wonderful to see so many people working in the docks — suppliers, truckers and seamen. The B & I staff worked extremely hard during the past few years. Not only did they take a 5 per cent wage cut but they agreed to a three-year pay freeze and did away with extra payments and overtime. The seafaring staff had to work very long hours. There is no doubt, however, that the B & I Line would have collapsed had the Minister not taken action. I have no doubt that with the co-operation of everyone concerned this new arrangement will be successful. It has been suggested that the MSBO take-over would have been more acceptable. That is possible and I probably would have preferred this option, but it must be remembered that the best efforts of the staff of B & I have not resulted in resolving their problems. More and more redundancies were demanded. I have often met the staff and they all feel there is no continuity of employment. I hope the ICL buy-out will enable people to have proper employment, proper salaries and proper conditions.

I am not altogether sure of my information but I believe the B & I Line are at present chartering ships which do not have Irish crews. I do not know the nationality of the crews but they are not Irish. It is absolutely essential from an Irish point of view that at least one shipping line is crewed by Irish crews and that the ships are registered in Ireland so that we will have a decent shipping line. Recently my colleague, Deputy Joe Doyle, and I raised the decision by Sealink to pull out of the ro-ro section of Dublin Port. They sent a telegram the day they held a press conference to announce their decision to pull out of Dublin Port. As far as I am aware, that was the only lift-on lift-off line between Dublin and Holyhead.

The original management-staff buy-out proposal was that 50 per cent of the company would be owned by a Danish company, another foreign company. Who is to say they would not decide to pull out at any stage because the proposal was not what they thought? So far as I am aware, approximately 70 per cent of the Irish Continental Group is owned by Irish investors, whether individuals or institutions. This company seem to be owned and fully operated by Irish people. We need more Irish ships and we should be looking at investment for the purchase of new ships.

The Irish Continental Group have said they will spend over £30 million during the next five years improving the B & I Line. However, at least £70 million will have to be spent over the next ten years improving the fleet on the Irish Sea. Some of the existing ships are quite old and, because the Irish Sea can be quite stormy, a special type of ship is needed. The journey from Dublin or Rosslare to the Continent can be very hazardous. If new ships are not provided and there is no continuous investment, problems will arise. The Irish Continental Group have said they will provide investment on a regular basis and build up a good business. If they have a good business and good back up, they will have no problem getting investment. However, they must at all stages be supported by the staff of the B & I Line. Deputy Yates repeatedly said there will be trouble with the unions and the workers. The last thing anyone wants is trouble which can lead to the loss of more jobs. Nobody in this House wants to see this happen. Last year the unions were totally opposed to the management buy-out proposals and I believe the Seamen's Union of Ireland are opposed to the present proposal.

Does the Deputy have any idea why? He is an inner city man and he should know why.

Deputy Byrne, I am sure you know the rules of the House and you do not interrupt the Deputy in possession. Deputy Stafford without interruption.

My apologies.

Thank you, A Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Sometimes I do not mind interruptions by Members on that side of the House because I wonder——

I am glad I have the Deputy's permission.

The Deputy should not invite them.

I am not really inviting them; I am simply saying that when Members on the other side of the House make certain points, we can see the other side of the argument. I can see both sides of this argument. As I see it, this proposal will take the B & I out of the past and bring them into the present. They will be a wholly owned Irish company.

That is why there is a five year plan.

To date, £106 million of taxpayers' money has been invested in the B & I Line. However, in spite of that investment, they only own two ships today. I accept they gave good employment but that is all that has been achieved.

It has been suggested that this company is a bargain at £8 million. I am not a stockbroker and I have not spoken to stockbrokers but I know that if one puts a bargain on sale people will come out of the woodwork to buy it. I did not hear of anybody going mad to buy the B & I Line. It has been suggested that this company is a steal at £8 million. It has also been suggested that it should be sold for £5 million, with only £2 million being put up front and the remainder being paid over a period of time. It was further suggested that this is a sweetheart deal and that the Minister manipulated the management to put forward their proposal so that the price would be increased. There is no logic whatever in that.

There is absolute logic in it. The Sunday Business Post said that the deal was——

The Sunday Business Post is an amazing newspaper, maybe The Workers' Party make a contribution to The Sunday Business Post. My good friend, Deputy Byrne — I think Deputy Yates said the same — referred to the tax losses. When the debate was adjourned I checked on the tax losses and how they would affect the Irish Continental Group. Three points were made to me in this respect.

The accumulated tax losses are locked into the B & I Line and cannot be surrendered to the Irish Continental Group or a subsidiary. In this way the effect of the tax losses on the Irish Continental Group will be no different than if the management and staff had bought the company. As Deputy Yates said, the nature of that shipping company's business is such that profits are usually low relative to their capital base. This is absolutely correct. Therefore, as a result of the combination of capital tax allowances on the existing assets and new investment, shipping companies would not generally have to resort to accumulated tax losses. This is normal in view of the risks involved in the shipping business.

Virtually all the activities of the B & I Line qualify as shipping trade under the Finance Acts and are, therefore, subject to a reduced 10 per cent tax rate up to the year 2010. This limits the value of accumulated tax losses. As a much better person than I once said here, we are not responsible for what appears in newspapers; they can put anything they want into an article and say this is what is happening.

It is absolutely essential that the B & I Line are a success and if possible, they should be almost 100 per cent Irish owned. This is what is contained in the proposal. I hope a staff share capital arrangement can be set up within the structures of Irish Ferries or one of the other companies so that the staff can have a share in the company which I hope will be successful.

In regard to the management-staff buy-out proposal I was concerned to learn from the Minister's statement that the consortium were depending on £6 million of pension funds. We should be wary of anybody wishing to interfere with pension funds. They should not have access to that fund so far as I am concerned.

Is the Deputy saying they will not have access to it?

I am saying that the management-staff buy out suggestion was that they would depend on £6 million from the pension funds to pay for some of the redundancies and for other expenditure. That is not acceptable.

Who does the Deputy think should own——

I do not see that as being acceptable because of the dangers involved. We need only have regard to what happened across the water to realise what can occur in the case of large pension funds. Reference was made to a sum of £61 million in the pension fund. I would ask the Minister when replying how he views that. I have no doubt he will answer that question clearly.

How does one fund a shipping company? There is only one way in which that can be done and that is by charging the users.

Operating costs across the Irish Sea are among the most expensive in the world because of the cost of harbour dues. I was always interested in the ports and when I was elected to this House a few years ago I approached the Government and asked whether they would consider funding major works in the harbour and they agreed. That was the first time Dublin Port had ever been funded and it has not had to make repayments on that £28 million investment. That funding, EC or otherwise, has helped with operating costs. Because of Ireland being on the periphery of Europe we have got to keep our costs down. Suggestions have been put forward regularly, in this House, that the purchasers are buying the company now because the EC will fund mobile assets, in other words, shipping, after relenting and deciding that a tug is a mobile asset. Strictly speaking one could refer to it as a mobile asset.

Tugs, particularly the tractor tugs which are built today, normally operate within the harbour area. We did receive some funding, approximately £3 million but why should we not try to get some funding for shipping. There should be a subsidy for building new ships. If you could buy new ships there is no way you could make huge profits because of operating costs. If funding was available it would help towards the purchase but it does not cut down on operating costs. We keep a large crew on our ships, and rightly so. We have always had a higher crew rating than most other countries. In that context I might refer to the two ships which collided recently in Dublin Bay. One of them was leased by B & I and the other was on charter to B & I, one had practically twice the tonnage of the other and yet had a much smaller crew. I take this opportunity to extend my sympathy to the families of those lost at sea on that occasion and I compliment the crew of the Leinster for their efforts to the rescue operation. I went to the scene at 1 a.m. and was very pleased to find an Irish ship the Leinster, organising the rescue operations. The ship on charter was operating with a foreign crew while the other was operating by an Irish crew. There is no doubt that at times when a company are busy that would happen but we will have to make provision, perhaps with EC funding, to have our fleet replaced. I am confident that the company who have come in to purchase B & I will have the expertise to look at the whole business, to fund it properly and to have a successful fleet in the next ten years. Mention was made earlier of the fact that we must have a State owned company and in one sense that may be a good idea.

It has been said that the Minister is keen to privatise everything including Dublin Bus. The Deputy will be aware that we in Dublin Corporation proposed the idea of late night buses for Christmas but we were told that the company could not afford such a service. However, the Minister stepped in and said that if they would not provide the service somebody else would. We in Dublin Corporation put forward the proposal but the Minister was the one who put the pressure on and now there is a late bus service in Cork also and in various other places because that is what was necessary.

There is a big difference between late night buses and a day service.

I am talking about the principle of it. The fact is that sometimes it is necessary to exert pressure. At that debate in question I think the Deputy said it had nothing to do with him. The Deputy knew and I knew what was needed.

I also knew that they were starved for cash.

The point is that they still operated it. The general public, the taxpayers, tell us what to do and we try to do it to the best of our ability.

My good friend from Wexford talked of a three-card trick effort. Fine Gael were saying "wait until this company come up again with the full force and the power of the Sea Link-Stena Line."

The first to squeal will be Dublin Port.

We will squeal, we have to protect ourselves. We will never be able to handle them. On the other side we have Deputy Byrne saying they are going bankrupt and so on. I do not worry about any of these things. An Irish based company, properly managed, can do very well.

That is the best way to get out.

Sealink made a total mess of their schedules in Dún Laoghaire last year by changing times. Truckers did not know whether they were coming or going and people who were travelling did not know what was happening. The company have a beautiful ship but one is reminded of the light house and the bog analogy: brilliant but useless. They have a most beautiful ship in Rosslare but when the wind blows it steams up and down off Cullenstown for two days because it is some 20 floors high. In high winds it is totally unsuited to come in and out of Rosslare. I am not worried about what this company or any appropriately managed Irish company will do. At times I would love to be on the other side of the House.

You might get your chance before too long.

Opposition Deputies can say that they will do this, that and the other but they do not have to do anything. Some Deputies referred to the rush with this Bill but the problem had to be sorted out quickly in order to assist tourism, which is one of our major industries.

Have you ever travelled on Irish Ferries?

How can travel agents arrange to bring people in and out of Ireland if they do not know what shipping line will be operating? As Deputy Byrne suggested, the channel tunnel provides an ideal opportunity for continental tourists to go through England and straight to Ireland. At this time of year travel agents set up their schedules and they want to know now how to get tourists to this country. The motoring tourist is probably our best tourist. We have space for him and he spends more. Because of our short holiday season the motorist is the ideal tourist. Last year during the high season there was a shortage of cars for hire. To encourage more tourists we should have an aggressive sales pitch from our shipping lines. Aer Lingus did a fantastic job advertising Ireland throughout Europe.

That is why they were kicked out of Stansted by the same Minister.

A good shipping company can keep their ships filled. When the staff consider this proposal and realise that it is in the interests of their jobs they will endeavour to make sure that it works because they will not want another Irish Shipping problem. This company have a proven record and they are not likely to offer £8 million without having considered all the angles. They will not get any more money from the Government. We do not have the money to spend.

I have always supported Dublin Port for its employment potential. The port keeps the city alive. I have been unpopular for supporting a port relief route. When ships arrive in Dublin Port, the freight carriers on them should be able to get on to a proper roadway out to the periphery of the city. When I support such a strategy people point the finger and say that I am doing it for a personal reason, just as people have said that to the Minister here today. We are trying to do what is best for Ireland.

It is not what is best.

The Minister made sure that his senior staff——

Including the board of the B & I?

——with SKC looked at all the options. It was not the Minister but professional people who put forward the views and the Minister had to come in here and articulate them. The experts have told the Minister that this is the thing to do and that it will be successful.

In talking about SKC, Deputy Yates said that it was wrong that SKC should be used because they are——

Auditors.

——the auditors and who knows better than the auditors what happens in a company?

Did you ever hear of poachers turned gamekeepers?

It shows one thing, that if an auditor is doing his job, the company know more about what will make the company profitable.

It is very unethical.

The auditors know. Other Deputies have said that another financial company are involved and that we should not have those either.

It is a bit like Celtic Helicopters getting things for Irish Helicopters. It is a bit irregular.

We must face the facts and talk about the future of the eastern side of Ireland. B & I are very important in that Dublin Port handles 60 per cent of all our exports and B & I handle a large percentage of them. This project will be successful. I regret that there will be more redundancies. B & I once had thousands of workers but they have now come to this, and if we did not do what was right what would be the future of their present workers? Would those workers be assured that their jobs would be there next year? What is proposed here will make their jobs more secure, although nothing is really secure in the shipping world any more. If the Opposition make worthwhile suggestions the Minister will consider them. I am worried about the pension fund. I do not want to see anyone using that money unwisely.

Will the Deputy oppose the Bill if ICG are to get any of the money?

What is proposed today could be successful. In the future we will have a successful company. Ships are so expensive. What is needed is an investment of £70 million in the B & I over the next ten years.

Debate adjourned.
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