Deputy O'Sullivan was in possession and he has some seven minutes left of the time available to him.
Estimates, 1992. - Vote 37: Army Pensions.
That a sum not exceeding £51,056,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1992, for retired pay, pensions, compensation, allowances and gratuities payable under sundry statutes to or in respect of members of the Defence Forces and certain other Military Organisations, etc., and for sundry contributions and expenses in connection therewith; for certain extra-statutory children's allowances and for sundry grants."
—(Minister for Defence).
Before we adjourned I was highlighting the need to recruit personnel into the Navy to meet the challenges of the future. Their conditions of service should be improved to increase awareness that they will have a major role to play in protecting our rich fishing grounds and our coastline against criminal elements who will see the dismantling of our custom posts as providing them with an opportunity to exploit the population, especially our young people, by illegally importing drugs and arms.
I wish to take this opportunity to pay tribute to our Air Corps, in particular the air sea rescue unit, which has given sterling service during the years in saving life, very often under extreme conditions. Even though they are now part of a new rescue service their achievements should be recorded and the service that they have given must be recognised. They were exceptionally effective for many years.
I would also like to mention An Forsa Cosanta Aitiúil, Slua Muirí and the Civil Defence, which are made up of many dedicated and highly motivated people who are serving the country on a voluntary basis. To their credit they provide a very efficient service despite the financial cutbacks of recent years. They have responded in a very practical way in relation to their patriotism.
I note from the Estimate that the allocation for Civil Defence has been cut back substantially. This should be deplored because they have provided a great service for both the community and the various civic services when needed. They have been called out to fight fires and asked to be involved in crowd control. They have responded in a positive way.
Let me refer to the position in which army pensioners find themselves. Many of these have given a life's service to the Army and the Navy and have served with distinction in the Congo, Cyprus and the Lebanon. Many of them had no option but to seek jobs to augment their pensions once they left the Army. I sincerely believe that a realistic pension structure should now be put in place so that the service of these veterans, many of whom have families to support, is recognised by the State. The Minister should do this as soon as possible.
There is also a need to examine the position of single men who retire from the Army. Very often these men have no family home to go to as their families have either married, died or scattered. These men, who have given a life's service to the country, should not be neglected in any way.
Recent press statements from the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen should be the source of serious concern for both the Minister and the Government. It appears that there are ex-servicemen living rough in our cities and towns for the reasons I have already outlined. While I recognise that pre-discharge courses are being provided, it is obvious that the problem of homelessness among ex-servicemen must be examined and resolved. It is incumbent upon the Government to make sure that each person who retires from the Army has somewhere to live and to call his own.
Even though this is a small nation with a population of just over 3.5 million people and that our resources are not great, for far too long the Defence Forces have been the poor relation. We have been served by a loyal, dedicated group of men and women, who have received the Nobel Peace Prize along with UNIFIL. This was a rare and special achievement and we were very proud when it was awarded. We have received this excellent service on the cheap. I ask the Minister to convince his Cabinet colleagues that the Defence Forces should receive priority and that the standard in all branches of the Defence Forces should be brought up to an acceptable level to meet the challenges of the nineties and of the next millennium.
I wish to address the area mentioned by a number of speakers, that is the Civil Defence, for which I have responsibility. This year's provision of £1.78 million for the Civil Defence represents an increase on the 1991 allocation of £1.68 million. The allocation will facilitate the continuing ability and effectiveness of the Civil Defence services to cope with any emergency situation involving its various roles. Despite recent encouraging developments in the international scene, regional conflicts continue to occur and the threat of a peacetime nuclear incident is ever present. The multi-faceted skills of the Civil Defence services and the vehicles and equipment they utilise also provide a valuable resource in dealing with emergency situations in the local community. In effect, Civil Defence is a valuable form of necessary insurance at very low annual cost for each member of the population.
The recruitment and training of volunteers in rescue, casualty, auxiliary fire service, welfare and warden skills and the development of the organisation is the responsibility of local authorities. The main costs involve salaries to full time and part time Civil Defence officers and to assistant Civil Defence officers, fees to instructors, administration, including telephones, heating and lighting, local and central training, running and maintenance of vehicles, storage of equipment, maintenance of control centres and local exercises, field days, parades and community assistance. The total gross cost incurred by local authorities in this regard is of the order of £2 million of which my Department bears 70 per cent, or some £1.4 million. In addition, capital grants at the rate of 70 per cent are available to finance the network of county control centres. This year such grants will be of the order of £1.1 million.
The Civil Defence school continues to play a central role in the training of volunteers and instructors and this year will initiate a new programme of training in rescue techniques suitable for different basic situations, such as rescue from heights. Other areas are to be examined at local level in association with my Department which may lead to further new training at the school where a programme of courses in established disciplines is continuing throughout 1992. Local training courses with the aid of school instructors are also contributing to the development of Civil Defence skills.
A total of £230,000 will also be committed this year for the purchase by my Department of Civil Defence equipment and clothing. This programme will include uniforms and protective clothing, which are in constant demand. A working jumper will be purchased for the first time and an increased volume of updated equipment will also be obtained to facilitate training in new rescue techniques for varying hazards. An ambulance will be acquired to assess the type of ambulance which will be required for the future use of Civil Defence. A further £50,000 will also be spent on national exercises which will help to maintain the standards and commitment of the volunteers.
Until recently the main thrust of Civil Defence has been to procure for our population as adequate a response as possible to the threats that would be engendered by an outbreak of nuclear war. Over the last number of years, however, there has been a gradual change in the role of the organisation. While Civil Defence maintains its capability to respond to a wartime situation, its peacetime activities are continuously being developed and improved.
The same skills and expertise are called into play in both peacetime and wartime. The civil defence organisation support, where appropriate, the regular emergency services. The range of civil defence support includes first-aid and ambulance services, rescue work, helping to repair damage caused by floods, assisting in the provision of emergency feeding and shelter, crisis counselling, crowd and traffic control, evacuation and search parties.
Since my appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for Civil Defence, I have sought, and will continue to seek, ways to improve the organisation. A working party with countrywide representation has been established to help to develop a policy initiative to increase the effectiveness of civil defence and to consider its roles and functions for the future. I invite the Opposition spokespersons to meet me in the near future to discuss the role of civil defence in the context of this overall development.
All the major emergency plans framed by local authorities under the direction of the Department of the Environment provide for the involvement of civil defence in the implementation of these plans. This requires the organisation to prepare and train to fulfil their role in assisting at major emergencies and accidents and much has been learnt through international contacts in this area.
Civil defence has specific roles in relation to the Department of Energy emergency plan and radiological emergencies, for which the members are being specially trained and equipped. Those roles relate primarily to radiation monitoring, sampling soil, water and vegetation and in the implementation of decontamination measures. At this point I should mention that it is intended to stage a radiological exercise later this year in which, I am pleased to say all civil defence personnel will participate.
It is also hoped to hold group exercises this year in the four administrative group areas. These exercises will involve multiservice teams being deployed from their home base to the exercise area after being alerted from the control centre at the exercise site. This will necessitate extensive use of radio communications.
While we can be satisfied with our Civil Defence structures and can point to a reasonable holding of operational and training equipment, hardware and accommodation throughout the country at large, it is necessary to constantly update planning, the revision of training techniques and the assimilation of new technology. As regards planning, the important development has been the redirection of the organisation towards preparedness for peacetime accidents and emergencies as well as nuclear accidents, while not ignoring the possibility of regional conflicts. International contacts have been availed of to make available to our planners and instructors the benefit of the lessons learned from such disasters as the Armenian earthquake, the Zeebrugge disaster, the incidents at Heysel and Hillsborough football stadia, etc. This in turn has led to a complete reassessment of the organisation's attitude to welfare requirements in the aftermath of disasters which has led to the launching of a completely revised welfare instructional manual for the guidance of our welfare instructors. Also, one of our school instructors visited the province of Bakhtaran, Iran, in the aftermath of the Gulf War to study at first hand the handling of the Kurdish refugees. The experience obtained on this trip and overseas contacts will determine what contribution Civil Defence can offer to international disasters.
At this point I would like to thank the Irish Red Cross Society and the Department of Foreign Affairs for their help in the organisation of this training exercise for our instructor. The organisation is approaching a reasonable level of self sufficiency in the area of radio communication and has in place a nationwide facsimile system. Parallel with this, computer development is underway which will greatly enhance operational capability and improve the administrative structures. The headquarters development in this respect at Ratra House in Dublin is complete and the design and implementation of the local authority systems is underway.
During 1991 the remainder of the regional civil defence officers, who were Army commandants seconded to the organisation, returned to their military duties. I compliment and thank them, and previous regional and civil defence officers, for their dedication to the development of Civil Defence throughout the country.
Before concluding I should like to pay special tribute to the civil defence school staff who have continued professionally to meet the challenges presented by the changing scenario, to the county controllers and civil defence officers without whose dedication and involvement there could be no success at local level and, most importantly, to the volunteers who have shown themselves true patriots in serving their communities with the expectation of no more reward than a simple "Thank you."
It is appropriate that the Estimate for the Department of Defence is being taken in the same week in which the first annual conference of PDFORRA is taking place in Galway. The establishment of this organisation must be recognised as one of the most significant developments in the history of the Defence Forces. I congratulate all the active members and the wives of Army personnel who agitated for the establishment of a representative body and were successful. This organisation gives them a platform from which to air their many grievances. I wish them every success in future in their negotiations with the Department.
Those who fought for the right to establish a representative organisation risked their careers. They and the Army Spouses' Association showed great courage, and the latter organisation took the matter to the hustings during the 1989 General Election. Notwithstanding the threats and dire warnings from the arm-chair generals, the fact that soldiers and sailors have their own representative association has not created any threat to order or discipline within the Defence Forces. Indeed, it has contributed to the strengthening of the Defence Forces and has given a much needed boost to morale.
Few people believed that the establishment of the representative association would automatically lead to a solution of all the problems faced by the Defence Forces personnel. The establishment of PDFORRA and RACO was not the end of the struggle, but it was a major victory and I congratulate the Minister at that time who afforded them recognition. He was sympathetic to their case and had to overcome many objections from the military personnel. This is only the beginning for these organisations, but they have provided a legitimate platform for personnel to highlight grievances in regard to wages and working conditions.
One only has to read the accounts yesterday and today of the issues raised at the PDFORRA conference to appreciate how much still has to be done. While the implementation of the Gleeson report has improved the basic income of most soldiers, their pay is much lower than their counterparts in civilian life, particularly the Garda Síochána. The gap is probably greatest in facilities and allowances.
While I would agree with the Minister's statement that the majority of the members of the Defence Forces have duties quite dissimilar to those of the Garda, the danger and discomfort experienced when standing on a wet Border road in the middle of winter doing check-point duty, for example, is every bit as discomforting for soldiers as it is for gardaí. I argue that there is absolutely no justification for allowing the anomaly to continue in which a garda may get up to seven times more money in allowances than a soldier. I firmly believe that the Government must set about taking steps to introduce a proper system of allowances similar to that operating for the Garda.
I am sure that many people would have been shocked to read the graphic accounts of substandard accommodation in which soldiers have to live and work described by the PDFORRA conference this week. Claims were made that 70 per cent of military accommodation is substandard; that soldiers' families living in the Curragh barracks have to do without indoor toilets, in this day and age; that soldiers who are living in have to share two or three toilets or showers between as many as 60 men. The Minister must agree that those are conditions more appropriate to the Second World War than to the end of the 20th century. It is clear that the Government must act on the motion passed by the PDFORRA conference calling for "a building programme to bring accommodation for soldiers up to a level fit for human habitation".
I well remember the Dickensian conditions that existed in Cathal Brugha barracks, a barracks in my own constituency. Clothes had to be dried on open air lines and soldiers' wives had to do their washing in troughs in communal washing facilities. Those were the conditions that applied to married soldiers and their families. Thankfully, those barracks have been demolished and replaced.
In more recent times, however, when on a visit to Collins barracks I witnessed primitive dormitory conditions that are not and can never be acceptable under any circumstances when soldiers have to stay overnight. The rooms were riddled with dry rot and the sparcity of tables, lockers and other furniture was shocking. It is not good enough.
Having experienced the attempt to clear up the mess at the Cathal Brugha barracks in Rathmines by demolishing substandard accommodation, I thought that the Government were headed down the right direction. However, as the conference in Galway has demonstrated, there is a huge range of inferior accommodation in barracks throughout the country. I ask the Minister to remedy that problem as quickly as possible.
Another problem that requires examination is the alarming increase in the age profile of army personnel. Between 1981 and 1991 the average age of a sergeant increased from 34 to 40, the average age of a corporal increased from 30 to 34 and the average age of a private increased from 24 to 30. Most military experts believe that the ideal age for a private falls within the early twenties, so the current age profile of our Army personnel clearly has implications for the operational efficiency and fitness of the Army.
The increase in the average age is due to two factors: the ban on recruitment in the past few years and the fact that fewer soldiers are leaving the service, clearly because of the shortage of jobs available in civilian life. The only way to remedy the problem is to bring in new blood. The establishment level of the Defence Forces is more than 18,000, but the actual level is only about 13,000. There is considerable scope for additional recruitment. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the huge number of people who would give their right arm to get a job. With 300,000 people unemployed, the stark truth is that the Defence Forces are understaffed and the doors of recruitment should be opened in order to give a military career to people who would otherwise be condemned to a life on the dole. This is really a problem that can only worsen if ignored. Substantial recruitment is the only way to tackle it.
More than 800 of our Defence Force personnel now serve with 11 different United Nations forces throughout the world, in extremely difficult and often hazardous trouble spots. As a nation, we are all justifiably proud of the job those personnel are doing.
Deputy, your time is up, I fear.
Could I have one more minute?
No, the Deputy cannot have a minute — just the word, "finally" and two or three other words.
I am very sorry that my time has gone so quickly.
An Lean-Cheann Comhairle
So am I, Deputy, but time is in very short supply.
Then I shall leave it at that.
I wish the Minister the very best of luck in his new portfolio as this is his first Estimate introduced for the Department of Defence. I also wish his Minister of State the very best of luck as junior Minister in that Department.
The Irish Army are a very up to date and efficient Army. The Army provides a great way of life for the young man or woman and it is a great pity that we do not have the resources to recruit many More young people. I feel that there should be compulsory Army training for every young person to last at least six months. Such training would stand our youth in good stead for the rest of their lives and would make them much more independent.
I made representations to the former Minister for Defence asking that he remove the means test from special allowance holders. Only 650 people receive the special allowance and there are fewer than 300 in receipt of the military service pension. I felt it was a shame that the pension of some special allowance recipients was reduced and it was for that reason that I made representations to both the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Finance to have the income level of eligibility for qualification for that allowance increased. I am glad to hear that the Programme for Economic and Social Progress increases are being applied to Army pensioners and to the veterans of the War of Independence. The means test for special allowances has been eased, a measure that I welcome very much. I appeal to the Minister for Defence to increase those pensions by 100 per cent next year. It is my opinion that that could be done for £1,500,000. There are very few veterans of the War of Independence remaining and we owe them a great debt of gratitude for the effort they put in to secure the independence we enjoy today. The very least we might give them is a substantial pension that is not means tested.
I am delighted that the Estimate for Defence now stands at £51 billion, which represents an increase of £1.6 billion.
I draw attention to the plight of a very small group of widows of deceased soldiers who had long service in the Army. The widows of those soldiers now find that because their late husbands did not for one reason or another join the defence force contributory pension scheme at the time it was introduced they do not qualify for a widow's pension. Most of those widows were not aware of that position until their husbands died. The number of women involved is very small and I appeal to the Minister to make some provision for them on compassionate grounds.
I draw the Minister's attention to the Army barracks in Tralee town, County Kerry. The buildings and the grounds of the barracks are in an excellent state of repair. There is a small section of the regular Army stationed there, and the FCA train there in the summer. Will the Minister consider having a permanent unit of the Army stationed in Tralee Army Barracks where there are excellent facilities?
I am delighted that 9,000 members of the FCA now form a valuable unit of the Army. In my own county they are very active and are essential. I am glad the Minister and the Army think so highly of them. I wish them the best of luck for the future.
When concluding the debate will the Minister address the matter of AIDS which was raised at the PDFORRA conference. This is a very real danger facing our soldiers when they go abroad.
I take this opportunity to wish the Minister and the Army the best of luck for the future. I wish to share my time with Deputy Clohessy.
Agreed? Agreed. Deputy Peadar Clohessy will demonstrate that he can do in four minutes what other people might take ten to do.
I take this opportunity to echo the views expressed by the Tánaiste concerning the Maastricht Treaty on European Union. The provisions dealing with a common foreign and security policy should be welcomed as a positive development. The Treaty strengthens the ability of EC countries to work together on international issues and provides a means for taking joint political and diplomatic action. As such, the strength of the Community as a force for peace and stability in the world will be enhanced.
However, defence issues are specifically excluded from the area of joint action and the Treaty does not set up a common defence policy. It contains no mutual defence commitments of any kind and, of course, conscription is a red herring introduced by opponents of the Treaty for their own ends.
It is particularly appropriate that this debate on the Defence Estimates should take place in the same week as the inaugural conference of PDFORRA, one of the recently established representative bodies for members of the armed forces.
In the past three years a great deal of attention has been focused on the need for reform and change in the Defence Forces. Much of this attention has focused on the need to improve conditions of serving personnel and while the implementation of the recommendations of the Gleeson report in 1990 resulted in the payment of increases in pay and allowances it is quite clear that problems still remain in this area. I am particularly concerned, for example, at continuing complaints which are made about the standard or sub-standard conditions of so many military homes and of stories of long-serving personnel still dependent on the family income supplement.
The ability of the new representative bodies to air these grievances publicly must be welcomed and must add considerably to the debate. I hope we might begin to make progress now on responding to these problems and improving the position of all members of our Defence Forces.
Given that we are debating an Estimate of over £320 million pounds, it is regrettable that such problems should still exist. The Defence Forces, like every public service organisation, must continually adapt to meet current requirements in the most efficient manner. Arising from the publication of the Gleeson report, considerable attention has been given to the process of reorganising and restructuring the Defence Forces. The Government will ensure that the momentum for change is maintained.
Irish people rightly take pride in the exemplary contribution made by our military personnel to the cause of peace through participation in peacekeeping missions. While our principal contribution is to the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, Irish personnel are at present serving in no fewer than 16 countries. In 1991 the European Community took an important first step in the area of peacekeeping through the formation of the EC monitoring group in Yugoslavia. Ireland's participation in an international peacekeeping mission with our partners in the Community is an historic initiative.
Ireland, through the medium of participation in international peacekeeping, has the capacity to make a positive and real contribution to the process of building peace and security in many troubled parts of the world. Our soldiers deserve our fullest praise for the courage, professionalism and dedication to duty which they have shown through decades of service with the United Nations.
The practice of participating to the fullest extent in international peacekeeping missions, subject only to the demands imposed by security at home, is widely supported on both sides of this House and among all sections of the general public.
I am particularly pleased that the Tánaiste has endorsed the recommendation that women should be granted the long overdue equal opportunity in the forces. Women have been serving in the forces since 1980. It is important to ensure that the process of expanding their role will be continued and that a wide range of career alternatives for women are provided. Last year for the first time women were enlisted as apprentices. 1991 also saw the first recruitment of women to the FCA. The acceptance by the Tánaiste of the report will be widely welcomed. I would express the hope that the recommendations will be implemented as a matter of urgency.
I thank the Deputy for his co-operation in the matter of time.
In the scandalously short time made available for this debate it is possible only to touch briefly on some of the issues that arise. The provision in this year's Estimate for accommodation can only be tiny. The Minister outlined this morning the main areas in which capital expenditure will take place this year. The expenditure will take place on the much needed operational and dining facilities and not in the area of accommodation. Living next door, as I do, to the Curragh where there is the largest military establishment in the country, I can say that the Defence Forces, the Army and the Department of Defence have only begun to scratch the surface of the accommodation problem. It is not an exaggeration to say that serving soldiers and some of their families are living in slums and we are not making enough progress to deal with that problem. There are some areas where the Defence Forces in the past provided reasonably modern housing. We need a lot more. We need a major building programme to provide accommodation for single members of the force and for married members with their families.
We also need much closer co-operation between the Defence Forces authorities and the housing authorities throughout the country to help members of the Defence Forces who are married and who have families to get out of this horrible trap in which they frequently find themselves when they come to the end of their service — of carrying on as over holders in Defence Forces accommodation, having their pensions withheld from them and in some cases from their serviving spouses and families. I endorse everything that PDFORRA said on this issue.
On the issue of pay and allowances, the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence this morning displayed a most incredible smugness. I will not go further than to say that I do not believe in fixing immutable relativities between grades, professions and jobs in the way that has been the bane of industrial relations here in the past, but there is no doubt that any fair minded person comparing the rates of pay of our Defence Forces, the Prison Service and the Garda Síochána will find that the Defence Forces are way behind the other two services, for a job which is much more demanding on them individually, which requires of them a greater effort than might be expected of other groups and which involves unsocial working hours and inadequate living conditions.
I have great admiration and respect for the professionalism of those serving in our Defence Forces, whether commissioned or non-commissioned. Nothing I am about to say now should in any way take from that nor is it intended to do so. This should be an opportunity for us to debate the role and function of our Defence Forces. The Minister did not even try to do that this morning. He capped it all, and showed his total disinterest in the subject, by being unable to defer his lunch sufficiently long even to hear the Opposition spokesperson talk about this Estimate.
The role of our Defence Forces, as classically perceived to date, as far as I know, is to defend our territory, to make it so inconvenient for an invader that an invader would conclude it was not worth the effort the policy being not necessarily to keep invaders out but, once they arrived to be in a position to harry and harass them so much, to inflict so much loss on them, they would conclude that the game was not worth the candle, so that the invaders either would not come in the first place or, having come, would take themselves off again. I wonder has thinking on that evolved at all; in the thinking relevant to the world in which we live today? I submit that it is not. It is for this reason I submit we need to undertake a reassessment of the role of our Defence Forces.
As I have said, our Defence Forces are staffed by extremely professional people. I know many of them very well at all levels, but they do not have the tools to do that job. If one could conceive of an invasion of this island of ours with the use of conventional forces only — I will leave out the whole nuclear scenario because obviously we are not equipped to deal with that at all; that is another day's work — no likely invader anywhere visible on the horizon or just over it — if we had the radar to see them which we do not — would do it without a substantial input of air power. All the lessons of modern warfare show the importance, both for the air forces and land forces, of superiority in the air. Therefore, we would first be subjected to an airborne assault. We could not stop it. We have anti-aircraft batteries, most of which to my knowledge, are manned by people who have never fired a live shell; certainly they have never fired one in anger but they have never even fired one for practice because it is too expensive, and we have only a few of them. But, apart from that, we have no other way of dealing with an airborne attack on this island. Our Air Corps — and again I salute their professionalism — are not equipped to do so either. We train people to pilot jets on very outdated jet aircraft. They do not even have anything like the technology to be found in a modern airliner, the fly-by-wire technology so much the rage these days. We do not have adequate resources to train them for any kind of offensive operation from an aircraft except, as I understand it, very limited counter insurgency operations. I am not sure whether they have ever been trained in that role but that is all we can train them in. That is not what is needed against modern attack aircraft.
It is very much a probability that, in the event of an attack on this island, our land forces would be decimated very quickly and would not be in a position then to carry out the other role they are supposed to have, which is to operate as a mobile harrying force, harrying the enemy with the backing of a supportive population. They cannot do that; we are not training them to do that; we have not equipped them to do so. If we were to equip them to do so, what would we need? We would need a major investment in anti-aircraft facilities, both fixed and mobile, now vulnerable to smart bombs. We would need a major investment in transport vehicles, in logistics vehicles, in armoured personnel carriers and in anti-armour weaponry. That would be a major investment, not to speak of what we would need in order to counter any possible threat of bombardment from off our coasts. We are not equipped to do that. I honestly cannot see that any Government over the next ten years in this country would be able to spend money at the level required to withstand such an attack.
That begs the question: what do we need? I submit we need the following: we need an improved search and rescue service. We now have one in place which would not have been in place without the energy and dedication of my party, in particular, our spokesperson on Defence, Deputy Taylor-Quinn. It has been strengthened but is not anything like sufficient; we should be providing much more. We need to improve the fishery patrol service and the Border patrol for as long as that problem obtains. Then we need some kind of armed force to help support and expand the service being provided by the Garda Síochána in our prisons and provide the cash escorts that public policy — and public policy only mind you — dictates that we require here. It seems to me that as our Defence Forces cannot fulfil the classical, primary role given them, that as we need a much greater input into these other roles I have listed — and I would not claim that my list is exhaustive — and that as we need a much greater capacity in those roles, a fundamental——
If I may interrupt Deputy Dukes, I would not want to be flippant, but the Chair must now throw a scud missile at him.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will leave my smart bombs in my pocket and obey you. A fundamental reappraisal of the role of our Defence Forces is called for. This should have been the debate in which we could do so but is not. I hope we will have it some day soon because, until we do, we are crippling and burdening the members of our Defence Forces with a totally mythical and unrealisable objective. They deserve better of us than that.
First, with the permission of the House, I should like to share my time with Deputy Coughlan.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and wish the new Minister for Defence — we have had a few incumbents over the past few years — well in his task, and indeed the Minister of State, Deputy Dempsey, who is also present.
We have seen major changes within our Defence Forces in recent years which we would all agree were badly needed. There was much discussion following the publication of the Gleeson Report on their remuneration and conditions of service. The creation of the Defence Forces representatives bodies was another welcome development. If Members recall the period preceding the establishment of these bodies they will readily recall that there was a very serious morale problem, when members of the Defence Forces felt they were not being treated properly, were being taken for granted. Indeed they had good reason to so believe. It was against that background that Gleeson was asked to report on their remuneration and conditions of service. I am indeed happy that most of these recommendations of the Gleeson Report have been implemented, resulting in morale having improved enormously. However, we must not take that to mean that everything is in order, since there remain a number of major problems to be tackled. A number of Members have outlined many of them. While we cannot ignore the improvements wrought in recent years it would be foolish of us not to realise the many serious problems remaining to be tackled.
I have in mind first the improvement of barracks and living conditions generally. Deputy Dukes referred to this matter. Both of us, representing the same constitutency, will be familiar with conditions prevailing at the Curragh Camp, where there are some disused barracks and more badly in need of renovation. Even more worrying are the staff living conditions about which descriptive words were used at this week's conference, such as that they were unfit for human habitation, were deplorable and so on. Having seen some of these I would have to agree with much of what has been said about them. If we are to endeavour to show the members of the Defence Forces that we take them and their role seriously it is imperative that we address those problems in the very near future.
The issue of Border duty has raised its head again this week, something we cannot ignore. While not wishing in any way to compare the role of the members of the Defence Forces and that of the Garda Síochána, nonetheless we would need to be realistic and ensure that they are properly rewarded and accommodated. The present position is unacceptable. I should like to see major changes implemented in that area.
Much reference has been made over the past few weeks to the issue of defence in the context of the Treaty on European Union. Ireland has a tradition of staying outside military alliances and this position is recognised by a specific provision in the Treaty which states that a policy of the European Union in the security area shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain member states. The Treaty does not contain a common defence policy. People who mention conscription — we have heard much about this over the past few weeks — are talking rubbish. It is about time the record was put straight in this respect.
I wish to refer to the Reserve Defence Force. I am sorry that expenditure on this force is again being curtailed. I have great admiration for members of the FCA. It is vital that the Defence Forces should have a highly trained reserve. I urge the Minister to restore the two week full-time training course for members of the FCA. The effective strength of the first line reserve is less than 900. These members are not being called up for fulltime training. I was heartened to hear that a representative association for the Reserve Defence Force is to be established.
Finally, I wish to pay tribute to members of the Defence Forces and to wish them well in the future. I hope Members now understand their plight a little better.
Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhghairdeas a ghabháil don Aire úr agus go mór mhór don Aire Stáit atá anseo, ina gcuid phostanna nua. I hope that many changes will be introduced in the Defence Forces. As a Deputy from a Border constituency I am acutely aware of the differences between the levels of pay and allowances given to members of the Defence Forces and members of the Garda Síochána. I hope the Minister will rectify this anomaly so as to ensure the Defence Forces and the Garda receive the same amount of work as members of the Garda Síochána, should not be the same.
The strength of the Defence Forces has not increased appreciably over the past number of years. The trend by members to stay in the Army for much longer than before will lead to an age structure which may be much older than that desired by many people. I realise that many members are tied up in administration work. A debate has taken place on the possibility of transferring some of the functions of the Garda to civilians. The introduction of such a system in the Army would enable many members engaged in administrative work to be transferred to operational duties. I ask the Minister to consider recruiting members to the Army, perhaps on a phased basis, over the next few years. This would ensure that the age structure of the Army would not change dramatically. While those with long service are needed for good ideas in the Defence Forces, young blood is also needed.
I am delighted at the progress being made in the recruitment of women to the Defence Forces. I hope women will be recruited to the FCA also. The FCA have made a tremendous contribution to the Defence Forces. Like my colleague, I ask the Minister to increase the number of training days for members of the FCA. The decrease from 14 to seven days in the length of the training course should be considered in the context of the tremendous work carried out by senior members of the FCA.
I wish to refer to air and sea rescue services. Tremendous progress has been made in the provision of facilities for air and sea rescue. There was a great need for such facilities in the north west and I commend those involved in the air and sea rescue services there. I hope there will be more investment in these services so that we will not have to use the services of other countries.
First, I wish PDFORRA every success in the future. This association had been waiting a long time to be recognised, and I was proud to be present at the conference at which that was announced. Some of the issues raised at that conference were of interest to me, particularly the proposed closure of Army barracks. In this context, I am concerned about the future of Connolly Barracks in Longford. This barracks, which has been under scrutiny for some time, has a very good record. The closure of Connolly Barracks would be disastrous for the people of Longford. There is a high unemployment rate in the area and businesses rely on the spending power of the personnel working in the barracks.
I should like the Minister to outline the improvements which will be carried out on Connolly Barracks. I understand a works programme for the barracks has been prepared for the past two years. However, nothing has been done to implement it. I ask him to confirm when this work, which has been on the long finger for some time, will be carried out.
Over the past 12 months I have been approached by young men and women who are anxious to join the Army. One Government speaker suggested that we should have compulsory Army service. It is extraordinary to think that no recruitment to the Army is taking place at present. I hope this position will be improved soon.
The role of the FCA has been diminished in recent years and, as the previous speaker said, the training course has been cut from two weeks to one week. I hope a decision will be taken to reinstate the traditional two weeks summer camp.
I wish to refer to the conditions which apply to members of the Defence Forces on Border duty. This is an area with which I am familiar because Connolly Barracks supply personnel for Border duty. It is only fair that the conditions of troops on the Border should be improved in line with those working elsewhere in the Defence Forces. I hope that this matter, which was highlighted at the conference this week, will be considered by the Minister with a view to improving conditions.
An tAire Stáit chun deireadh a chur leis an díospóireacht.
Before the Minister replies I take the opportunity of congratulating him on his appointment as Minister of State at the Department of Defence. This is the first opportunity I have had of doing so.
I would ask the Minister to clarify a number of issues in the course of his reply. I should like him to deal with the suggestion that capping be introduced in the various ranks for promotion purposes, with his proposals on the issue of Border allowance and with the issue of women in the Defence Forces. I was disappointed with the Minister's reply in regard to the latter. Perhaps the Minister of State would give a more positive reply in regard to it.
We are adding further now to the confusion that existed earlier, but perhaps this is the better approach. Deputies are not supposed to intervene until the Minister has given his reply but he has not even begun yet. Have I the agreement of Members that questions will be put to the Minister of State before he replies but that thereafter they will remain silent? Agreed.
I would like to add my words to those of my colleague, Deputy Taylor-Quinn, in congratulating the Minister of State. I addressed correspondence to him in relation to a search and rescue unit in the midlands area and also to a further role for the Civil Defence in local tragedies. Has the Minister had a chance to examine that question?
In view of the statements by the Organisation of National Ex-servicemen regarding retired Army personnel who are left homeless, would the Minister give an assurance to the House that he will meet with the organisation to discuss this very serious problem?
An tAire Stáit, gan aon chur isteach.
I sometimes welcome interventions. I thank those Deputies who contributed to the debate and I appreciate the good wishes expressed by Deputies Taylor-Quinn, O'Sullivan, Gilmore, Clohessy, McEllistrim, Dukes, Power, Coughlan and Belton to the Minister and myself in respect of our work. I thank Deputies, too, and wish to be associated with their expressions of goodwill and appreciation of the work of the various branches of the Defence Forces, work that is appreciated by the Government as a whole. As Deputies have highlighted a number of points, I will try to deal with them as quickly as I can.
The common question right across the board was the whole area of allowances, particularly in relation to Border duties. Without repeating what the Minister said earlier today about the Gleeson Commission and their indepth study of the whole question of pay and allowances, I would put on the record that this was the first completely independent assessment of this whole area and, as such, deserves much consideration. The Government have considered the matter and are implementing the recommendations of the report.
On the issue of Border allowances the commission concluded that the fairest approach was to compare the military pay rates with rates in a wide range of other public and private sector employments on the basis of the duties, responsibilities and working conditions they entailed. Specifically, the commission stated that while members of the Defence Forces and the Garda co-operate on a variety of tasks, overall their duties are dissimilar and it is impossible to compare them. As the Deputies know, a conciliation and arbitration scheme is being considered at present and quite a number of meetings have taken place in this regard. We hope that that scheme will put in place the machinery for discussing, and coming to conclusions, on these allowances and that it will be a satisfactory way of resolving the matter. Since the beginning of 1989 the average pay of privates and NCOs has increased by between 45 and 50 per cent. Therefore, the commission was obviously needed. The Government are acting on the recommendations and that has been welcomed by all sides of the House.
As regards the Minister's announcement in relation to a wider role for women in the Army, I acknowledge the generous welcome by the spokespersons opposite. I know that Deputy Taylor-Quinn is concerned that this recommendation will not be implemented quickly enough. In his speech, the Minister outlined, and has accepted, the principle of full integration and it is now up to the military authorities to put that in place with the least possible delay. In view of the statement made by the Deputy, I assure her that as far as the Minister and I are concerned there will be no undue delay in implementing that decision. Obviously, there are areas where implementation could take place almost immediately as in the areas of cash escorts and so on, but there are other areas where implementation of the recommendations would prove more difficult. I would ask the Deputy to accept that the decision will be implemented. I am sure that if progress is not satisfactory she will come back to us on that issue.
On the question of promotions there is a problem, as the Deputy has outlined. We have moved from a system which was almost exclusively based on seniority to a system based on merit. There will be competitions in place in this respect. I realise that the problem referred to by the Deputy is one that has to be tackled. The Minister and the military authorities will be discussing this matter with the representative body, RACO.
As regards the concern expressed by Deputy O'Sullivan in relation to ex-soldiers, I assure the Deputy that I will be meeting the Organisation of National Ex-servicemen. I have been invited to attend one of their functions at the end of this month, and I will also have a formal meeting with them. As the Deputy acknowledged, once a soldier leaves the Army he is an ex-soldier, a civilian, and much of the problems that have been highlighted are more appropriate to the civilian arena. This whole matter, particularly the question of pensions, was examined by the Gleeson Commission and was favourably commented on. Anything that can be done to ease the transition of soldiers into civilian life will be done by the Army. That is an area that will be kept under observation and I will certainly meet with the ONE to discuss the matter further.
Deputy McEllistrim raised the matter of AIDS and the story carried in yesterday's papers about our UNIFIL personnel. I have been assured that there is no danger of our UNIFIL personnel contracting AIDS as a result of receiving blood transfusions in Lebanon. Blood donors in UNIFIL are taken from the Swedish contingent. All Swedish military personnel who volunteer for service with the UN are required to undergo a HIV test and anyone found to have the AIDS virus is debarred from overseas service. Therefore, any fear in this matter should be allayed.
The question of Army barracks and accommodation was also mentioned. I assure Deputy Belton that there is no fear of Connolly Barracks in Longford being closed down. Important works are needed and money will be provided from the Estimate for the necessary repairs.
Deputy Clohessy referred to the FIS scheme. There are very few Army personnel availing of the FIS. The number is in single figures.
Deputy McGrath was in contact with me in relation to Civil Defence, an area for which I have special responsibility. I have studied his submission and I will be speaking with him and with the Opposition spokespersons in the context of a review of Civil Defence. I look forward to an exchange of views.
Votes put.
A division being demanded, the taking of the division was postponed until 8.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 May 1992, in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of this day.