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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 May 1992

Vol. 420 No. 5

Estimates, 1992. - Vote 35: Tourism, Transport and Communications (Revised Estimate) (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £132,759,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1991, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications.)

The third part of my portfolio is Communications in which I intend to cover the main issues in the broadcasting, telecommunications and postal spheres.

The package of broadcasting legislation enacted in 1988 comprising the Radio and Television Act and the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Act changed the map of Irish broadcasting in a most fundamental way. Apart from a small number of diehards, the pirate problem is gone. Instead we have a vibrant independent local radio sector, providing real choice of programmes to the Irish listener. Of the 22 local radio stations currently in operation many have achieved local audiences as good as or better than RTE Radio 1 and 2 FM. In addition to its success in a social and cultural context, the independent broadcasting sector had to be applauded for its job creation impact. Six hundred and fifty jobs, around half of which are permanent, have been created and the ensuing economic spin off in the individual local radio franchise areas and, indeed, the country as a whole is not insignificant.

Unfortunately, the development of the independent broadcasting sector has not been without its difficulties. The non-emergence to date of an independent television service which the 1988 legislation facilitated, the collapse of Century Radio and the teething problems of some local stations all show that independent broadcasting is not a licence to print money.

Broadcasting is a major influence on all our lives. It is particularly important at present, given the revolutionary changes taking place in broadcasting technology, to take the time to reconsider our concepts of the nature and purpose of broadcasting services here. A mere ten years ago not many would have envisaged the plethora of sports channels, film and other special interest channels, general entertainment channels which are available to anyone with the necessary receiving equipment.

Since taking up the Communications portfolio I have embarked on a review of our broadcasting legislation and structures. The most pressing reason for my review has been the problems caused by section 3 of the Broadcasting Act, 1990 in particular, which are being experienced by a number of sectors.

Section 3 of this Act limits the income which can be earned by RTE from advertising, sponsorship and other commercial activities and on the amount of air time which can be devoted to advertising on RTE. The intention was that the portion of the advertising market which could not be satisfied by RTE would find alternative outlets in the independent services envisaged.

I have embarked on a round of discussions with the sectors affected by or with a direct interest in broadcasting matters. I have met advertisers, advertising agencies, independent film makers, the Independent Radio and Television Commission and local radio operators. I will be meeting other interests. I have also met Irish language interest groups as I believe broadcasting has a pivotal role in the preservation and development of our national language and culture. I will return to this point later.

At my meetings with the groups mentioned above a number of serious operational difficulties arising from the "CAP" provision in the 1990 Act were expressed to me. While I have not yet formulated my proposals for Government on this issue, I have to say that at this juncture it is hard to see how the capping provisions of the 1990 Act have had any positive effect.

Why, the House might ask, does the Minister not simply accept that these provisions are not working and introduce a short Bill simply repealing the offending provisions? I could, but it is not that simple. I want to put in place a legislative regime which will cater for broadcasting development into the next century. I want to get the legislative environment right. My review has the following broad objectives: I want RTE to retain and strengthen its position as our national broadcaster, I also want the independent production sector to get moving again in a businesslike way; we also need a legislative environment which will allow independent broadcasting to build on its successes to date and we must also ensure that Irish companies have access to a strong domestic television service at reasonable rates in order to advertise their products and services. I realise the urgency of the situation but I intend to take as much time as is necessary to determine the extent of change needed.

To return to the theme of the Irish language and broadcasting, I want to make it clear that this is a fundamental part of my review. Television and radio have the potential for an immense positive or negative effect on the preservatior of our national language and heritage. I have appointed a special adviser to assess how the language is served by broad casters and by broadcasting legislation a present and how this can be improved. One possibility is, of course, the establishment of a Teilifís na Gaeilge service I will be closely examining ways and means of providing such a service and determining the resources needed and to be realistic, afforded. Where such resources will come from must also be determined. It will be news to no one that a separate television service does not come cheaply.

Another important broadcasting development is the introduction of multichannel television services throughout the country through the establishment of MMDS systems. The introduction of this new retransmission system has generated some degree of controversy although much of the comment on it is quite uninformed and often betrays a vested interest at source. Let us be clear about our objective; it is to provide real multichannel television choice to the entire country in a professional, technically competent and cost-effective manner. I am fully satisfied that MMDS is the best in fact the only, option open to us in order to achieve that objective.

Turning to telecommunications, we now have a system which can hold its own, in terms of quality, with anything on offer in Europe today. The reliability of the telephone service, as measured by the percentage of connections at the first attempt and by the level of faults occurring, continues to improve. The lates in telecommunications technology in the form of what is known as integrated services digital networks, ISDN, is being introduced, on a trial basis, with help from the EC STAR Programme and waiting lists for the telephone service continue to fall.

During the year ended 4 April 1991 the company recorded pre-tax profits of over £93.5 million and a dividend of £35 million payable to the State, was declared. Increasing competition for international services, increasing transfer of business to leased lines, lower growth than forecast and increases in labour and other costs point towards a reduction in profit margins in the short term at least. This problem is currently being addressed by the board of the company and will be dealt with in the next edition of the company's corporate plan which will cover the five years from 1993-94 to 1997-98.

I have asked the company in drawing up this plan to consider particularly such issues as the return to a faster growth path as the recession eases; the realistic scale of emerging competition and how best to counter it; cost control and how productivity might be brought into line with other telecommunications operators. A prime concern of mine is the very high level of charges for international calls from Ireland. This problem was adverted to in the Culliton report and is referred to by many commentators on Irish business and by bodies representing Irish industry.

The introduction of cost based tariffs, that is, charges based on the cost of providing the service, would go a considerable way towards alleviating this problem and this is the direction being urged in the European Communities. I must stress that it is simply not possible to reduce long distance charges and leave it at that. At its present stage of development Telecom Eireann cannot afford to forego significant revenues to bring down charges in one area without a compensating increase in charges in another area.

The combination of highly qualified and skilled people with a modern telecommunications network means that Ireland is now a desirable location for both European and American service industries. This is particularly true in the area of internationally traded financial services but it also applies to other database services. Jobs have already been created in places like Loughrea. Castleisland, Fermoy and Tipperary in processing information such as insurance claims for US companies after close of business in the US but during normal office hours in Ireland and transmitting the finished product to the US in time for business opening the following day. The recent development of Minitel has also led to provision of jobs in service bureau from Bray to Letterkenny with the prospect of more as the Minitel service develops and expands both nationally and internationally.

The strength of Ireland's telecommunications infrastructure has been recognised as a vehicle for job creation in the area of telemarketing. This is a system of marketing through the intensive use of inbound and outbound telephone calling and databases by specialised foreign companies which might set up here. I understand that telemarketing projects have the potential to generate up to 1,200 jobs in this area and I am confident that, with co-operation between the various agencies involved the establishment of these jobs will help to set against the loss of jobs in Telecom Éireann.

Deputies are already well aware of the nature and extent of An Post's financial problems, and of the efforts being made by the company to resolve those problems.

During the 15 months since An Post's recovery proposals were announced in February 1991, a range of initiatives have been taken to try to ensure that meaningful management-union negotiations could take place and that the course would be cleared for the implementation of measures to reverse the company's loss-making trend. The Labour Relations Commission as well as an independent tribunal set up by the Commission devoted considerable time and effort to that process. I understand that a total of 41 meetings were held since March 1991. The failure of management and unions to agree on recovery measures and the unions' resistance to the recruitment of temporary and part-time staff to reduce overtime levels and costs in the Dublin area are major disappointments.

There have been accusations made against the management of An Post that they are adopting a hard line approach and not playing fair with the unions. These accusations are well wide of the mark. Towards the end of last year the company paid an outstanding arbitration award to their staff at a cost to the company of £11 million. In addition, the company recently paid the first phase of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, the annual cost of which is £7.2 million. These payments were made by An Post to their staff while negotiations with the unions to seek cost savings were proceeding. So far no cost saving measures have been accepted by the unions. Also, I understand that the company gave the unions access to their books to check the proposed savings figures.

The plain but unpleasant fact is that An Post are in serious financial trouble and there is an immediate need for remedial action. An Post have suffered financial losses since 1989. Their accumulated losses to end 1991 amounted to £13.8 million. The company were projecting a loss of £8.5 million for 1992 before the postal dispute took place. Their annual overtime bill is £21 million.

At the meeting last Monday between the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Minister for Labour and myself there was an exchange of views on the dispute in An Post. It was agreed that we, the Ministers, and ICTU would keep in touch with a view to assisting the parties in their preparation for possible further discussions at the Labour Relations Commission.

The commission recently sought and received elaboration from the tribunal on a number of aspects of their recommendations. Following further consideration of the matter the Labour Relations Commission have invited both parties to discussions this evening. It is my fervent wish that these talks will arrive at a successful conclusion. The House and indeed the general public should know that the Labour Relations Commission have been deeply involved over the last few months in attempting to resolve the issues which have given rise to this dispute. Therefore, I believe that the parties should avail of this knowledge and expertise to assist them in reaching a settlement.

Finally, I have been accused of adopting a pro-management approach to the resolution of the financial problems of An Post. Let me once again, for the umpteenth time, put the record straight. As I stated recently in the House, I have to consider the national interest. That includes the interests of An Post, all of their staff, postal customers and, very importantly, the taxpayer. My objective is that An Post should continue to provide an efficient and cost-effective postal service in an environment free from service disruption and that the company continue to play their full role in the economic and social life of the community.

As in politics nothing is ever totally black or white in industrial relations. In recent times there has not been a better example of Government responsibility for industrial disruption than the present postal dispute. The Government own An Post and are responsible for the policy guidelines within which they operate. The financial crisis central to the present dispute has been known to the Government for at least the past four years. The crisis was acknowledged by the then Minister 16 months ago when, at the time of the publication of the viability plan, he promised urgent action to deal with it.

The Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, throughout this dispute, has been part of the problem rather than of the solution thereto, by her one-sided approach which has hardened the attitudes of management and unions and which has queered the pitch of her colleague, the Minister for Labour. The Minister has told us today that she must consider the national interest. Of course, she has to consider the national interest, particularly in relation to something over which she has direct control. We must ask: what is the national interest today? I would suggest that the national interest today is the settlement of this dispute at the earliest possible opportunity; that is today's national interest.

The complacency of the Government over the past five weeks, in the face of an ever-deteriorating position, has been inexcusable. Last Thursday I heard that the Minister and her colleague, the Minister for Labour, were to meet the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, when I breathed a sigh of relief and thought there was hope. Then I heard that the meeting announced for Thursday was to take place instead on Monday. I wondered why. Had there been some great new development in Irish political life; was it pluralism at last coming into its own? They could not meet on Friday, perhaps because the Muslims have their day of rest on Friday, they could not meet on Saturday, perhaps because the Jews have their day of rest on Saturday, neither could they meet on Sunday because that is the Christian day of rest. No, there was no such reason. Rather was it a lack of urgency — Thursday to Monday, a whole weekend lost while the country and the postal service deteriorates and hardship increases. That is the sort of urgency we have witnessed.

This dispute has resulted in hardship to individuals and financial loss to business and commerce. Each day it continues the situation worsens. Those whose business is seasonal, as in the case of tourism and travel, those totally dependent on the post, such as mail order firms, are in a disastrous position. The sales of our two largest mail order firms have dropped so sharply they have had to lay off staff. For example, Family Album Limited in O'Connell Street have had to lay off ten out of 40 and Oxendales have let many go. The managing director of Oxendales reckons that mail order firms generate £71 million-plus for An Post annually. He was quoted last week as saying: "We are extremely upset at the lack of urgency with which the Government are addressing this dispute".

Millions of pounds are being spent on alternative delivery methods. A survey undertaken by Dublin Chamber of Commerce shows two-thirds of city businesses are suffering serious cash flow problems, with 29 per cent claiming marginal problems and only 6 per cent claiming they are unaffected. Cash flow is the single greatest problem especially for companies with overseas debtors or a large number of small debtors, the cost of collection being uneconomic. In short, the very livelihood of people with small businesses is in jeopardy. Does this not require urgent action? Would a speedy end to this dispute not be in the national interest?

Internationally, in the aftermath of the bank strike, our reputation for reliability and stability is being questioned. Business and, therefore, jobs have already been lost, with more suffering the same fate daily. Does this not require urgent action? Would action of that nature not be in the national interest, as the Minister described it?

The old, the sick, the under-privileged, the lonely, all in our society who particularly rely on the post for communication with relatives or for the receipt of money are being subjected to considerable hardship and inconvenience. Does this not require urgent action? To use the Minister's words: would action on this level not be in the national interest?

Consider the position of the "non-combatants", those on the edge of the dispute though not directly involved, like the 200 postmen in County Dublin, who are working at delivering what letters are available for them and whose wages were made up and ready for payment when management intervened and the thousands of spouses and children who face into this holiday weekend without a pay cheque or welfare benefits after a period of five weeks. Surely this requires urgent action. Would it not be in the national interest to do something about this problem?

The postal dispute is the answer to those who claim for this coalition Government political, financial and management skills, or, indeed any pretension to be caring or sensitive.

An Post's financial losses have been central to the dispute. The annual deficit in 1990 was £9.8 million. The annual deficit in 1991 was £12.9 million. Because of the financial crisis we had the viability plan which created uproar in rural Ireland in particular, in consequence of the proposals for closing 550 post offices, the installation of roadside letter boxes and the loss of 1,500 jobs. Because of the financial crisis we have the current proposals of An Post, which include the employment of temporary staff in circumstances where permanent jobs will be lost, a proposal which is the flashpoint of the current dispute.

As a result of An Post's efforts to implement these proposals and the unions' resistance to them we have the absurd position that by the end of this week the dispute will have cost An Post an estimated £6.5 million. So much for proposals designed to rescue An Post from insolvency. In addition, business has been lost, some of which will never come back, adding to An Post's longer-term problems.

There is another factor, a development which both management and unions in An Post should take careful note of and of which they should be warned. The hardship, inconvenience and financial loss which has resulted from this dispute has led to an increasing tendency to question the very existence of An Post in their largely monopolistic and protected position. They should pay attention to the clear signals emanating from Brussels in this regard.

My message to the Minister for Labour — I do not wish to address it to the Minister for Communications for the reasons I have given — is to get in there now and clear up this mess. This absurd dispute, if allowed to drag on, could be the worst in the history of the Post Office. It has the potential to be that. It is capable of resolution. Three of the four points at issue have already effectively been resolved — the phasing out of overtime, the relocation to the Naas Road and the closure of the productivity agreement.

That leaves one issue, the question of permanent versus temporary jobs. I am confident from discussions I have had that an acceptable formula can be found. The Minister for Labour should call the two sides together and find that formula, and he should do so today.

As for the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, there is one useful thing she can do. She can put on the record of his House today exactly what the position is in relation to An Post's viability plan. There has been speculation and leaks that the plan has been shelved, scrapped, amended out of all existence. Will the Minister please clear the matter up? And will she at the same time release the Foley McKeown report, commissioned from NESC by the former Minister.

The Minister has a responsibility to unburden herself also of her alternative proposals for the future funding of An Post and a resolution of their financial crisis. We will then be in a better position to judge whether there is a hidden agenda to the postal dispute, as so many fear.

The Minister referred to the colossal amount of money paid out in overtime and perhaps I should draw her attention to the irony of this. The last time we had a major debate on An Post was when we debated the motion I tabled on 11 June 1991 when the gallery was full of postal workers who had been on a protest march. An Post had decided to write to the union on that date on the very issue of overtime. May I now quote from that letter from Mr. John Russell, Director of Personnel:

As you are aware the office is heavily dependent on the working of overtime in order to maintain quality of service. There is, accordingly, a special obligation to cover overtime which is part of the current normal operational arrangements for the office...

There is also, of course, the standard requirement to work overtime in "the exigencies of the service". The operational plan for that C.S.O. related to the company's quality of service target of 90% next day delivery, is to clear the night mail every day. Failure to work overtime would undermine this plan and the quality of service would suffer as a result....

In the circumstances I consider it necessary to ask you to ensure that the normal overtime arrangements are adhered to by, issuing a formal instruction to the branches that overtime is to be worked as usual on Tuesday next.

It looks as if the union is not the only one responsible for excessive overtime and I ask the Minister to bear this in mind.

I will refer briefly to the Broadcasting Act, 1990, and to broadcasting policy. Broadcasting policy is a shambles. The level "playing pitch" is more cratered than the surface of the moon. RTE have earned £8 million above their cap. Advertising on RTE television is so expensive and so limited that money is pouring out of the State to UTV and Sky. The national radio and television alternatives to RTE have failed to get off the ground as the history of Century and TV3 clearly shows. Our people are being denied the high quality Irish alternative they deserve.

Independent Irish producers have been forced into the corporate market to survive because the effect of the cap has been to reduce the number of advertisements being made and restricted independent production. There is unanimity among all sections of the media industry that the Act requires radical change but differences between the Government parties and within Fianna Fáil have resulted in delay after delay.

I will now deal with Telecom Éireann. As an island on the periphery of Europe and the only part of the Community without a land link to mainland Europe it is essential for us to redress our peripherality and isolation by efficient and cheap communications. The telephone is essential to our business life. To pay more for phone calls than our competitors is the same as paying more for labour, electricity, fuel or raw materials. It pushes up the cost of our product and makes us less competitive. In short, it costs us jobs.

Telecom Éireann made a profit last year of nearly £100 million. Yet using a basket of costs for typical business usage, connection, rental and call charges, our international calls are 16 per cent higher than costs in the Netherlands; 20 per cent higher than in Belgium; 27 per cent higher than in the UK and Germany; 36 per cent higher than in the USA and 40 per cent higher than in France.

In a situation where we have the highest unemployment in the history of the State and when our economic survival depends to such a large extent on doing business with the rest of Europe, the cost of international telephone calls is suicidal.

The stage has been reached where Telecom Éireann are beginning to lose business because of excessive international charges. Businesses are finding it cheaper to make reverse charge arrangements with foreign telephone companies rather than use Telecom Éireann. Indeed, there is speculation that communication giants like AT & T and South Western Bell are entering the Irish market to capitalise on this reverse charge market.

I note that the Minister said:

At their present stage of development Telecom Éireann cannot afford to forego significant revenues to bring down charges in one area without a compensating increase in charges in another area.

I believe we simply cannot afford not to reduce our charges. The real cost of calls has reduced dramatically because of technological advances and the potential for profit is substantial. The recent returns for British Telecom seem to indicate that they have a licence to print money. I have no reason to think that the position in relation to Telecom Éireann is any different.

Telecom Éireann should be told that their international charges are a serious liability to our quest for foreign business, that they retard job promotion and in present circumstances are almost in the category of national saboteurs. If there is no positive response from Telecom Éireann the Minister should use her powers to instruct them to reduce the costs of international calls to at least the average level in other member states.

We are living in a more open world. At the end of this year we will see the completion of the Single Market. It is time we ended our siege mentality. The fact that this is 1992 is as good a reason as any for doing this.

As Deputy Currie said, we are living on the periphery of Europe. We should not use this as a mealy mouthed excuse for sitting on our hands and doing nothing; rather we should use it as a stimulus to integrate with Europe and find new markets in the world. Nineteen ninety two is also as good a time as any to assess the role played by communications in our society both nationally and internationally. Very often we take television, radio and newspapers and the good work of RTE in terms of good news, current affairs and documentary programmes for granted. I believe RTE have helped to change Irish life for the better.

Despite the panegyric of the Minister about local radio I wish to point out that after four years many local radio stations are in serious financial trouble. The Minister did not allude to this point in her speech. An examination of the wages structure in the 22 local radio stations would make for very interesting reading. The quality of the programming on local radios is very uneven. There is a lack of professional standards and often a lack of balance. We heard much about the need for competition before local radios were set up. Some local radio stations are barely viable. Indeed some of the pirate stations often had more balance and better programmes than the local stations. We need better news, current affairs programmes, documentaries and more middle of the road music on local radio stations. There is far too much bad pop music on local radio stations at present.

Higher standards need to be implemented so as to ensure that there is a national broadcasting code. Local radio stations also need to employ more fulltime staff. As the Minister said, approximately half the staff working in these stations are fulltime. They also need to employ professional journalists who will present balanced news and current affairs programmes. In short, we need better local radio programmes than we have at present. After four years, it is time to look again at the principle of local radio. We can learn from the mistakes which have been made in the present set-up. The wing and a prayer philosophy followed by many local stations is a poor substitute for high quality programmes.

The technological revolution in communications is showing no sign whatsoever of slowing down or being reversed, and wishful thinking will not make it go away. There will be greater expansion of satellite stations during the next decade.

The Minister and the Government would do well to give greater encouragement to Irish film makers. Some developments have taken place in this area but there is not enough self-confidence among Irish film makers. A formal course for Irish film makers was recently established. I welcome this development; it is a welcome way to learn a new trade. However, it is a poor reflection on us that we did not set up such a course long before now. We need far better programmers if we are going to get even a toehold on the film world. If we do not produce good films this industry will not survive in a competitive world. In this context, we could learn a lot from the Australian experience. During an era of satellite television, videos and mass communications last week's prohibition on The Guardian was foolish, infantile and should not have been allowed to happen in a civilised society. I hope it never happens again as long as I am a Member of this House.

In speaking about communications it would be wrong of me not to avail of the opportunity to comment on the current postal dispute. The Labour Party are extremely disappointed that this dispute was allowed to occur in the first instance. It should never have been allowed to occur in our society. We also deeply regret the manner in which the dispute has been handled by the management of An Post and the Government during the past five weeks. The word "cohesion" has become the buzz word in Europe. Scarcely a day passes without the world being told either in the newspapers or on radio and television about the need for more cohesion in our society. We are also told about the benefits cohesion will bring. I have seen very little cohesion in the efforts to resolve the postal dispute. There has been an absence of cohesion between the parties concerned. I am well aware of the lengthy negotiations which have taken place between An Post and the trade unions. The Minister referred in her speech to 41 meetings. The figure of £21 million has been bandied about as the amount paid in overtime to An Post workers. I read in the press yesterday that An Post lost £14 million last year and expect to lose a further £30 million by the end of this year. This dispute will not be resolved by reciting figures; one can cite figures until the cows come home but they will not solve this problem.

The Government have adopted a Mexican stand-off approach to this dispute. This attitude is not good enough. Good industrial relations or the restoration of good industrial relations will not be achieved by a negative approach; they will not happen by themselves and, above all, they will not be achieved in a vacuum. An Post have used some unpleasant and unpalatable tactics in this dispute. Nine hundred and seventy An Post employees, including 200 postmen and postwomen in County Dublin, who were paid at a different centre are not now being paid by the company. An Post have also phoned 170 sub-postmasters and told them to take their wages out of the cash they handle in their offices. By adopting this policy I believe An Post are in direct contravention of section 45 (2) of the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, which states.

Save in accordance with a collective agreement negotiated with any recognised trade union or staff association concerned, a member of the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs who is transferred on the vesting day to either company shall not, while in the service of the company, receive a lesser scale of pay or be brought to less beneficial conditions of service than the scale of pay to which he was entitled and the conditions of service to which he was subject immediately before the vesting day.

I believe An Post are in direct contravention of that provision. The Minister cannot preside over such a situation without taking action. The Government have a duty to create a framework or infrastructure which will make for good industrial relations not only in An Post but in other organisations. The need for such action is very evident in the challenging times in which we live. The Government have not taken such action in regard to the postal dispute.

I am disappointed that the Government have not availed more of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to resolve this dispute. They have an excellent record in recent years in helping to solve industrial disputes. It could well be said that in many cases the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have shown a far more acute awareness of the need to avoid and settle disputes than the Government or employer organisations. They also give their services free; they cost the country nothing. They are only too well aware of the problem of unemployment and the many serious issues with which we have to deal. They have repeatedly shown a heightened sense of responsibility of the need to face up to their duty. I wish the same could be said about the Government and An Post in this context.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions have requested the Minister, the Government and the management of An Post to adopt a more flexible approach to the negotiations. They have pointed out to the Minister that the trade unions were prepared to accept three of the four recommendations put forward by the three man tribunal set up to consider the dispute. They have repeated that the unions are prepared to negotiate the fourth recommendation. Surely this is a way forward. It is a formula for recommencing the talks with a view to ending the dispute and creating good industrial relations in An Post.

The unions have agreed to phasing out overtime, and that is a matter that should have been referred to in the Minister's speech. Nobody likes to lose wages and the agreement by unions and workers that overtime be phased out over a period of time is a positive way forward. I would urge the Minister to use the Labour Relations Commission to bring an end to this dispute. To get talks going is not a sign of weakness on the Minister's part but rather it is a sign of strength. There is an obligation on all of us to compromise and find a way forward. If there is a row in our own homes it must be solved by negotiation. By standing back from the problem we will not solve it; we must move forward. If money is due to the workers it should be paid. That would help ease their hardship and would create goodwill.

In order to create a good industrial relations climate positive thinking is necessary on the part of the Minister and the Government. I urge the Minister to avail of the good offices of Congress, who have a good track record and are ready, willing and able to solve this dispute. I know that Peter Cassells, a man of impeccable rectitude and principle, and Kevin Duffy, a most experienced negotiator who have helped to solve other disputes, including the recent bank dispute, will meet the Minister and anybody involved with a view to solving the postal dispute. There is co-operation on all sides and it is a reflection on this House that the dispute is being allowed to continue. There is no reason that it should continue for another day. I have 32 years negotiating experience in trade unions and I believe that with a little effort and goodwill the dispute can be solved.

The Minister, together with the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commissions, should take action to solve the dispute and in so doing she will not lose face. Some time ago when Dr. Patrick Hillery was Minister for Labour he incurred the wrath of people by trying to create a climate of good industrial relations between trade unions and employers. In the new united Europe it is very necessary to create good industrial relations. There is no easy way forward for our country which faces many problems. Unless the Minister and the Government show leadership in this area there will be further disputes down the line. If the Minister is magnanimous enough to tackle the problem head on, and to speak to the unions and the workers, she will create much goodwill and will help solve this problem which is resulting in a haemorrhage of money and resources at a time when our country can ill afford it. I would urge the Minister to invoke the service of Congress in this dispute. If she does so, it could be solved within three days.

In the five minutes available to me I will concentrate on the postal dispute. The failure of the Government to intervene to seek a solution to the postal dispute is a sinister development in Government policy. An Post, who are already in financial difficulties, are incurring additional losses of several hundreds of thousands of pounds for each day the dispute is allowed to continue. The pro-management bias of the Government in this dispute is in stark contrast to the active, even-handed role played by the Minister for Labour in seeking a solution to the recent bank dispute.

Incalculable damage has been caused to business through lost orders. We can only guess the number of tourists who will go elsewhere because they have failed to receive replies to queries or confirmation of bookings. At the same time thousands of spouses and children of postal workers who have not been paid for several weeks are facing destitution because of the rigid and inflexible application of the regulations regarding supplementary welfare allowance, not to speak of the refusal of An Post to pay these workers.

The marked deterioration in industrial relations in both the public and private sectors over the past few months must be a matter of serious concern. We are now seeing a noticeably more "macho" approach by management and this is reflected in the decision of the management of An Post to engage in mass suspensions and the penalisation of workers not directly involved by the withholding of wages. If this trend is allowed to continue we are likely to face prolonged industrial disruption which will cause lasting economic and social damage.

Any reasonable person would acknowledge that the issues involved in the postal dispute are complex, involving not just the rights of postal workers, but also the possibility of job opportunities for the unemployed. What we can say with certainty, however, is that management acted in a grossly irresponsible way when they decided to unilaterally implement a series of sweeping changes at the very time at which these changes were under ballot by the unions. This was the immediate cause of the dispute.

In contrast, the position of the unions has been quite restrained. Despite the withholding of wages and the mass suspensions, there is no strike — not one postal worker is on strike. The union have put forward their own set of proposals which they estimate would save the company £1.7 million, but these proposals have been spurned by Mr. Hynes. The union have also indicated that they are prepared to allow for the phased elimination of overtime, the relocation of staff in Dublin and the negotiation of a productivity agreement. The Communication Workers Union are one of the more progressive unions in the State and it is appalling that they have been driven into this dispute by a management who were seeking to use tactics which I thought had been eliminated by Irish management in the last ten years or so.

The single item agenda of Mr. Hynes seems to consist of replacing as many permanent workers as possible by part-time employees working for lower wages and under grossly inferior conditions. The Communication Workers Union have indicated that the terms under which people are being asked to work in this casual way include, for instance, that they would be employed in a temporary capacity on a week to week basis, that the company would reserve the right to terminate their employment at any time, that they would attend at the request of the company from Monday to Saturday and that the days and times of attendance be determined from week to week. The workers would have no security, no continuity of service, no uniform or wet gear, less holiday pay than other staff and would not be in a position to get mortgages or loans from banks or building societies. I cannot see how the Government can stand over any company over which this House, directly or indirectly, has influence and allow for those kinds of conditions to be created.

The role of the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications in this dispute has been disastrous. Her appointment to the Cabinet in February was widely welcomed — indeed, I welcomed her appointment — but she has been a grave disappointment. She seems to be totally under the spell of Mr. Hynes and his colleagues. Far from doing anything to find a solution, she has fuelled the flames of the dispute by a series of partisan speeches which have caused great anger among postal workers.

One must ask what is the reason for the grossly one-sided position of the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications. Why have she and the Minister for Labour, Deputy Cowen, done nothing in this regard? We are seeing a sinister twist to Government policy. We are seeing exposed the hidden agenda of the new Government under the Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, which is the smashing of the unions in An Post to prepare the ground for a wider assault on unions in the public service. That is a disastrous course for the Government to take and it must be reversed. The Government must assert their authority and instruct Mr. Hynes and his management colleagues to return to the negotiating table and to seek a negotiated settlement to this dispute. Negotiations will have to take place at the end of the day and it is surely time for management to return to the negotiating table forthwith.

I should advise the House now that under the new arrangements there will be five minutes during which any Deputy can ask a specific question. It seems a strange arrangement where there are so few already offering, but I have to advise the House on that position. If there is any specific question any Deputy wants to put now, he can put it before the Minister concludes.

I have asked my questions. It is answers I want. I have a suspicion that I might have to ask more questions after the Minister has spoken, but I doubt if I will get an opportunity to ask them then. It is a rather strange arrangement, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle says.

It is experimental. Its operation on an earlier Estimate on Health was quite satisfactory. There was not sufficient time to provide for all the questions that would have been presented.

It is a good innovation. It is certainly worthwhile. Will the Minister seek this weekend to bring the management and unions around the table to find a solution to this disastrous dispute?

When speaking I indicated that the Labour Relations Commission have today invited both sides in this dispute to come to the negotiating table. Because of that, Members of the House would not want to encourage me in some way to subvert the traditional labour relations machinery, which is accepted by this House and in which I have total confidence. I know Deputy De Rossa is not suggesting that. It is my intention to ensure that every assistance is given to the Labour Relations Commission to bring both sides to the table to negotiate.

In that event will the Minister promise not to make any further statement until such time as the Labour Relations Commission have completed their work and got the management and the unions together so that she will not cause any further problems as a result of her statements?

The Deputy accused either myself or the Government of being sinister. From the little bit of Latin I learnt going to school "sinister" means "left". I do not believe Deputy De Rossa would accuse me of being left wing. I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that since the beginning of this dispute I have not made any public statement other than those I made at the Communications Workers Union Conference in Tralee, at the Communications Managers Union Conference in Galway and in response to specific Parliamentary Questions, Private Notice Questions and Adjournment Questions that were raised in this House. I have very deliberately not gone on any of the airwaves to talk about this dispute because I felt that both sides at the end of the day will have to resolve the problem.

As I suspected, it is the answers to the questions which are most interesting and from which further questions arise. The Minister has been dexterous in her reply. From the little bit of Latin that she and I share, the Minister will know that "dextra" means "right" and that "sinister" means "left". We have reached the stage where the crisis is so great and the hardship, inconvenience and lost of jobs is so great that intervention has to come. Unfortunately, the Minister has put herself in a position in which she is totally outside of this. She is surplus to requirements in this issue. It is up to the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Labour, to get involved in this and he ought to get involved now. I say that more in sorrow than in anger.

That is a question to the Minister for Labour and obviously he cannot answer that now.

There is a good deal of goodwill for the Minister in her new office. The Minister has considerable experience in Europe and knows why the German system of industrial relations has come unstuck in recent time. Surely the Minister should know from her European experience that the way forward is not through confrontation or through a stand off but through getting the parties together. The device I suggested of invoking Congress is surely one that is well tried. I urge the Minister to do that this evening and neither the Minister nor the Minister for Labour would lose face. If the Minister takes my advice, goodwill will prevail on both sides and the matter will be resolved within three days. Will the Minister do that?

It is not a question of face-saving or loss of face. There are not any winners in this dispute, as I said at the beginning. Deputy Kemmy urged me to use the Labour Relations Commission machinery and the Labour Court. Before the Deputy came in I had replied that the Labour Relations Commission had invited both sides to the negotiating table this evening. I support that wholeheartedly. That is the way to go. We should not intervene with the tried and tested industrial relations machinery that is there.

I take this opportunity to express my thanks and the Government's thanks for the tremendous work that has been done by the Labour Relations Commission in the past five weeks. They have done an enormous amount of work, way and above the call of duty. I will continue to support them.

I invite the Minister now to make her ten minute reply.

I thank the many Deputies who made constructive contributions to his debate since 12.30 p.m. today. In the 15 minutes left to me——

Ten. Time is running out for you in all respects.

In the ten minutes left to me I will respond to a number of the questions that were raised. On tourism this morning, a number of Deputies raised the question of the task force. They are meeting frequently and are continuing to examine major tourism issues. I hope to meet the task force in the next couple of days. I can confirm that the members of the task force are determined to complete their task. They have been considering the question of issuing interim reports. That is the response which I gave to the Parliamentary Question to which Deputy Farrelly referred. They might decide not to do that and to issue one final report. Were they to issue an interim report, that would come very quickly; but were they to decide only to produce a final report that would come later.

They are not going to break up?

On the level of the Bord Fáilte grant-in-aid to reflect growth in tourism, it is important to note that tourism performance over the last three years has increased by almost 50 per cent, despite the fact that the subvention to Bord Fáilte has remained the same in cash terms. There is not a direct connection between reducing and maintaining the level of grant aid. There is no basis for the assertion that that in turn means a reduction or a maintenance of tourism numbers.

One of the points that a number of Deputies have brought to my attention over the past number of months is that SFADCo, for instance, were given responsibility for tourism in certain areas and that that has created an anomaly whereby the counties of Kerry, Tipperary and Offaly are being marketed by two separate agencies. North Kerry is being marketed by SFADCo and South Kerry by Cork-Kerry Tourism and so on. I have asked Bord Fáilte to look at that problem. It would be much better to have a full county being marketed by one agency. I have also asked my Department to look at how we can correct that.

The hotel grading system is a statutory function of Bord Fáilte. I understand that the board have reached agreement with the Irish Hotels Federation on the introduction of a new star grading system for hotels. It was introduced on a trial basis this year and it will be implemented countrywide, if successful. With regard to accommodation grants, I do not have any plans to introduce a grant system for accommodation facilites. The current Government strategy for achieving tourism growth in the period up to 1993 is to develop the sector through the development and provision of high quality marketable amenities and facilities, special marketing and improved competitiveness, a better distribution network and so on.

Membership of Bord Fáilte was mentioned by Deputy Michael Moynihan. He suggested that members should include only those employed or involved full time in tourism. I am not convinced that it would be in the best interests of the board to limit their membership in this way.

Deputy Farrelly raised the lack of support from the national lottery for the Irish Olympic team. He also mentioned grants for agri-tourism and he made a very strong case in relation to the interpretative centres. These are matters for the Ministers for Education and Agriculture and Food and the Office of Public Works. In my capacity as a Deputy people have made representations to me in regard to the interpretative centres. I have been talking to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, and he has met the groups involved, particularly in relation to the Mullaghmore site. I will communicate Deputy Farrelly's views to him.

He said he wants to meet us but he has not done so yet.

I will raise that matter as well. Deputy Moynihan raised the question of carriers and services between the US and London and Paris, as opposed to the carriers between the US and Ireland. Of course, the range of carriers and services is much greater between the US and London and Paris than it could be between the US and Shannon or Dublin. Government policy is that air fares to and from Ireland should be at least as competitive as those of countries with whom we compete in international markets. Traffic on the Atlantic has been performing very well this year with a 29 per cent increase in April over the same month last year.

Deputy Yates raised the question of the financial results of Aer Lingus and their capital requirements. I share his concern about the deterioration in the financial results. The general performance of air transportation worldwide has been adversely affected by the Gulf War and the recession in the UK and the US. There are signs of an overall traffic improvement. Aer Lingus will have to take all appropriate measures themselves to ensure that the airline returns to profitability at the earliest opportunity. They are aware of the urgency which I attach to this matter and I will inform them that this urgency is shared by Deputy Yates and others.

The Deputy also referred to the future capital requirements of Aer Lingus, some £1,300 million over the next ten years. This amount is not based on any set of figures agreed between my Department and Aer Lingus. Discussions are currently taking place between Aer Lingus and my Department on the preparation of the corporate plan to cover the next five years. The future capital requirements of Aer Lingus will be discussed in the context of the corporate plan.

Deputy Yates asserted that airport charges are too high. Airport charges have not been increased since April 1987. As to the impact of airport charges on the revenue of Aer Rianta, I would point out that revenue from commercial activities accounted for 54 per cent of total revenue and the subsidiaries accounted for a further 16 per cent. I am surprised that the Deputy should be critical of Aer Rianta's performance in those circumstances.

I dealt in my speech with the Shannon stop-over question. All Deputies appreciate that the resolution should not be dependent on a change of Government or a change of Minister but should be based on a policy that will see us well into the future. Certain interests have been to see me in very recent weeks and have put certain proposals which I and my Department are continuing to examine with them.

We have been discussing Dublin transport at great length over the last couple of nights. Anything I had to say has been said. I welcome the support of Deputies for the application we are making to the EC to help us resolve Dublin's tranportation problem. I take the point that it cannot be done in isolation. My Department on their own cannot deal with the application to Brussels. The resolution of the problem is not confined to public transport. It is equally concerned with roads development and the development of the port. The Ministers for the Environment and the Marine and I are conscious that a co-ordinated effort has to be made in our application to the EC for support.

A number of Deputies raised the difficulties experienced by some of the regional airports. I accept that a number of airports have been having difficulties. I appreciate the problems in Waterford as outlined by Deputy O'Shea. The Minister of State clarified the position in regard to on-going discussions with Aer Lingus. I come from an area which has a regional airport with its own problems in regard to services and I am aware of the difficulties. I appreciate that Waterford Regional Airport is an important factor in attracting tourists to the south-east. I could not agree more with those who talked about the necessity of securing conference facilities and marketing them abroad.

Vote put.
A division being demanded, the taking of the division was postponed until 6.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 June 1982 in accordance with the order of the Dáil.
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