Jimmy Deenihan
Ceist:7 Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for Labour if he intends to introduce changes in the apprenticeship scheme to ensure fairer accessibility to our school leavers.
Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Apprenticeship Scheme.
Under the new apprenticeship system being developed by the social partners and FAS, responsibility for recruitment will rest with employers subject to agreed minimum educational standards being achieved by the potential apprentice.
The Programme for Economic and Social Progress proposed that special provision would be made for entry to apprenticeships for groups such as the disadvantaged the disabled, mature entrants and women. The National Apprenticeship Advisory Committee, established under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, is at present considering how this proposal can be implemented.
Finally, there is a commitment in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress to an additional 1,000 annual apprenticeship intake to the currently designated trades.
Is the Minister still happy with the fact that apprentices have to find their own sponsors? I taught in a vocational school where a great many students wished to undertake apprenticeships. There was a vast inequality between those who had the potential to be excellent apprentices but could not find an employer to sponsor them and those who were taken on as apprentices. Has the Minister any plan to rid us of that inequality, because apprenticeship opportunities should be available to studnets irrespective of whether they themselves can get a sponsor? I believe it is not good enough and totally inequitable that only those who know someone who will sponsor them can be taken on as an apprentice.
The Deputy is entitled only to ask a question.
At present the breakdown of the apprenticeship system is that 80 per cent is employer sponsored and 20 per cent FÁS sponsored, and at the end of April there were 1,837 people in apprenticeships of which 1,467 were sponsored by employers. It is important to realise that an apprenticeship involves a certain level of on-the-job training and therefore the involvement of employers, both in terms of the recruitment of apprentices and the standards they will achieve during the apprenticeship, is important. That is why employers play such a primary role. Under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress it is proposed that responsibility for recruitment of apprentices will rest with employers, subject to agreed minimum educational standards. What we are seeing is a reversal to the former time served basis with an addendum that if they reach a certain standard before their time is served they will be eligible for the certification process.
First, may I say that I welcome any positive discrimination in favour of the disadvantaged or the handicapped. Would the Minister not agree that what is currently being considered is a reduction of the educational content in apprenticeship training and that, effectively, in the long term this will affect the future job prospects of apprentices in that they will have trained in a very narrow field unlike in the past when technical schools and regional technical colleges were involved in the training? If the educational content is to be taken out of apprenticeship training we will reduce the apprentice's opportunity to make progress in later life.
It is not our intention to take the educational requirement out of the apprenticeship system. Employers are very concerned that the educational requirement remains and that the block release system to the training centres and to the regional technical colleges will continue as part of the apprenticeship. That will continue to be a feature of an apprenticeship.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Would the Minister agree that at this stage it is easier to get a place at university than to be taken on as an apprentice? Would the Minister further agree that we are reverting to the old trend and that we will end up with more academics and fewer technically trained people?
This is a point that we have to take on board. Let me point out that we have a very narrow range of trades — the figure off the top of my head is somewhere in the region of 37 — under the apprenticeship system, whereas countries like Germany offer apprenticeships in over 300 trades. It is my intention to broaden the base of the apprenticeship system. However, in doing that we have to address the problem of funding. I think employers generally will have to take on a greater role in terms of the funding of apprenticeship systems and will have to regard training as an investment rather than a cost, which is the unfortunate perception they have at present.
When comparing Ireland with Germany the Minister is not exactly comparing like with like. Germany has a huge economy and there are avenues open for apprenticeships in specialised areas. The traditional apprenticeship training prepared a man for every aspect of work in a particular trade whereas in Germany an apprentice could train in a very narrow area of focus for a specific job. That is fine in a big country like Germany but it would not be successful in this country.