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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Apr 1993

Vol. 429 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Air Transport Policy: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Gilmore on Tuesday, 6 April, 1993:
"That Dáil Éireann,
— recognising the strategic importance of Aer Lingus for the Irish economy, its role as a provider of substantial employment and the necessity for a viable national airline,
— concerned at the implications of the recent senior appointments and resignations in the company and at the Government's continued failure to announce a coherent air transport policy and to provide Aer Lingus with the equity capital which it needs,
calls on the Government to
(1) immediately publish its air transport policy,
(2) provide Aer Lingus with adequate equity capital to enable it to develop as a viable national airline, and to state without further delay the amount and form of the equity, and
(3) reject the privatisation of any part of the Aer Lingus group".
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann
— acknowledging the contribution which Aer Lingus and its staff have made to the Irish economy since the company's establishment,
particularly in the development of Ireland's trade and tourism;
— noting the commitment in the Programme for Partnership Government to ensure the commercial future of Aer Lingus as part of overall air transport policy;
endorses the Government's policy as being in the best interests of the Irish economy and supports the Government's decision to provide, subject to constraints on the national finances, sufficient support for Aer Lingus when a viable and convincing strategy for the future of the company has been put in place.
—(Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications).

With your permission, Sir, I wish to share my time with Deputy Yates.

Last night I explained that the limited number of Aer Lingus transatlantic flights from Shannon Airport has ensured its viability. The Aer Lingus service ensures continuous employment there and the airport's viability in the winter months. I was very supportive of Mr. Cahill's rescue plan and the conditions laid down to execute it but since we last debated the matter on 12 March 1993 I have met a number of employees of Aer Lingus, most of whom were very disappointed with the degree of consultation, who are not very satisfied. I understand they received out of date information from the Government plan which was subsequently rejected.

I appeal to the Minister, and all parties involved in the rescue efforts, to have consultations. I hope the Minister, his Department, the management and workers of Aer Lingus will join to produce a rescue plan, otherwise we will run into huge difficulties later. There seems to be an assumption that the Aer Lingus workers will accept massive redundancies because of the financial problems but I have not heard that at any meeting I attended. At all meetings I was invited to attend the workers told me they did not want any redundancies. Therefore, we are on a collision course if such proposals are made. I know the Minister has had experience in the Department of Labour but I was disappointed to hear him say he was waiting until the plans were submitted to him. He should be more involved. If the motions tabled in Private Members' Time are to have any effect, the Minister will have to rid himself of the rigid attitude he has adopted to the problem, examine the problem again and accept the benefit of joint consultation with all parties.

The situation facing Aer Lingus could not be more grave or serious. I have very little sympathy for the Fianna Fáil and Labour Party Government that has to deal with this mess. When I held the transport portfolio for my party one or two years ago the difficulties were clearly articulated to me by Mr. Cathal Mullan and Mr. Kyrl Acton who were screaming at the Government and Department officials about the crisis they were facing. All they met from the former Ministers, Deputy Séamus Brennan and Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn was paralysis and inaction.

There is no doubt the Labour Party have played politics with this issue which resulted in massive gains in seats, particularly on the north side of Dublin. They are hoist on their own petard.

My party believes very direct steps need to be taken in the short term. First, revenue, and the yield, must be increased on the routes they fly at present. There is no escape from the reality that Aer Lingus must become competitive. One aspect which horrifies me is that at a time when Aer Lingus is experiencing record losses on air transport, Aer Rianta is making record profits of over £20 million per annum. The Minister should arrange a reduction in airport charges. Fine Gael supports the injection of equity into Aer Lingus. The Government is the only shareholder. We do not support the mealy-mouthed vague nature of what the Government states. The taxpayers are entitled to know that the money they are investing in Aer Lingus will secure its long term future. There will be no long term future after this difficulty is overcome unless there is an aviation plan and a strategic blueprint for the development of the Aer Lingus group. Having studied the matter at some length, there is no doubt that the way global aviation is going we are heading for an oligopoly of ten or 12 mega carriers. What happened in the United States will happen in Europe. The survival of the airline is very much in doubt.

We should have a national airline and it should be retained in State control but we should not be the only airline in Europe that has not taken in outside participation. Irish Life, and other companies, consider the State shareholding to be a very dormant shareholding. It is possible to tie up a strategic joint venture deal with Delta or some other airline in the future that will not only give equity capital to the company, which the taxpayer may not have, but also give it a network of contacts.

We must also develop a hub. Unless we do Ireland will be a secondary destination. We must try to take advantage of our pivotal position between East and West so that we could serve as a hub for a trans-Atlantic carrier from which there would be spokes to all points in Europe. If we fail to develop a hub we will simply be servicing Manchester, Paris or Heathrow and they will be the main hubs. As a result of deregulation in the United States there has been a shake out in relation to the carriers, it started out with attrition, then the carriers entered into mergers and consolidation and hubs and spokes were developed throughout America. That is what will happen in Europe but it is very questionable whether we will develop a hub.

We support the injection of equity but it must be part of a realistic framework within which Aer Lingus will operate. There is a clear blueprint and view that it has a place as part of a mega carrier with a direct hub and a strong aviation business. I see no reason per se why taxpayers should be financing hotels in Britain as that does not provide a public service here. The approach to the subsidiaries must be strictly commercial and underline the interests of the aviation industry.

This motion is timely and we support all aspects of it, apart from paragraph 3, and we will be opposing the Government amendment.

I have been asked by my party Whip to ask the House to agree to my time being shared with Deputies Tony Killeen, Eoin Ryan, Sean Ryan, Roísín Shortall, Derek McDowell and Joe Costello and that gives Deputies some idea of how much time I have to speak.

In the very limited time available I go along with the Government's amendment to the motion before the House. I would prefer a stronger amendment because I am concerned with the wording, "when a viable and convincing strategy for the future of the company has been put in place". I would prefer if this was stronger. It would be stronger if the Government had taken a more active role in the rescue strategy that is in place. The Government has committed itself to an injection of equity. I emphasise that it was not just one side of the Government who did that but the Government as a whole. Fianna Fáil has always been totally committed to Aer Lingus and an injection of equity is vitally important for the future of the company.

In the strategy being worked out at present I would caution against wholesale privatisation. When a company is in difficulty it should not become involved in sales because they may become fire sales rather than the sale of sections for a realistic value. I would advise against fire sales. I do not agree with Deputy Yates in that I believe the hotels are very important to the company. The non-core business has been the backbone of the airline for many years in terms of achieving financial results.

We have heard much about cuts in recent months while Aer Lingus became a political football. It is time to look at the other side of the equation in terms of revenue. Cutbacks should not constantly be made. There are marvellous people working in Aer Lingus who provide an excellent service to the people. Greater emphasis should be placed on consideration of the future of the company in terms of increased revenue. As a member of the European Community there are limitations on the way we spend our money. Every Minister, civil servant and semi-State official leaving the country should, by choice, use an Irish airline. I accept that the Government has to use the executive jet to get to meetings — I did so in my time in Government. That is an essential service that will always be available. Leaving aside EC regulations, why should we be the only good Europeans? An instruction should be given that every Minister, civil servant and semi-State official use Irish airlines. We must preserve as well as create jobs and one way of doing so is by increasing the revenue of Aer Lingus.

I could go on at great length about the company, the workforce of 7,500, the need for an injection of equity and the service provided down the years, but my time is limited. All the points I wish to make in relation to this matter are already on the record. The Minister should be careful in the advice he accepts. It should be convincing not only to the mandarins of the Department of Finance and the Minister's advisers but also to the electorate and it should be viable not just in terms of pounds, shillings and pence but also in terms of a service to us as an island nation. Let there not be constant cuts but rather let us concentrate on increasing revenue and the creation of jobs.

Everybody agrees that changes must be made in Aer Lingus. The losses which occurred in the last few years cannot continue. I hope we can bring the airline back to profit. The Minister has been very consistent in his statements on this matter. He has always said that a viable strategy should be put to the Cabinet and to this House. The Commission has directed that a viable strategy must be set out before money is made available. I do not understand why this debate is taking place this week. This is a serious issue and I do not wish to be frivolous but had we waited for the plan we could have had a meaningful debate on it.

The Minister and his predecessors have been criticised by the Opposition for doing nothing over the years but now that the Minister is doing something he is again criticised.

He is doing nothing.

He is not doing what Deputies want but he is doing something.

What is he doing? He told Bernie Cahill to sell off the company if that is what must be done.

He is putting together a plan that will save the airline.

He is not putting it together.

Aer Lingus was established under Fianna Fáil and we are committed to the company. Some people give the impression that we are not so committed or that we do not care about the company but nothing could be further from the truth. There is a commitment on this side to Aer Lingus and that has always been the case. We helped the company in the eighties when it was in trouble and we will continue to help it. However we have a responsibility to the taxpayer, and a viable strategy must be in place before public money is made available for Aer Lingus.

The criticism has been made that we have not developed Aer Lingus and the aviation business. Since 1987 various Governments in which Fianna Fáil have been involved have developed regional airports. As the Minister said, the number of people visiting the country increased to almost three million in 1991, an increase of more than 50 per cent since 1987; more than 23,000 jobs were created in tourism between 1987 and 1991; increased income generated in the tourism and air transport sector amounted to more than £500 million since 1987; travel by business travellers has increased by almost 50 per cent since 1985 and at least 3,000 direct jobs have been created by the participants in the air transport and related industries since 1987. Since 1987 Fianna Fáil has created the economic atmosphere for Aer Lingus to increase the number of people coming here, which is essential.

Many new companies have been set up such as PWA, Airmotive, TEAM Aer Lingus and Shannon Aerospace. Together with Deputies from all sides of the House I visited TEAM Aer Lingus last year and everybody was amazed at the huge success of that project. It has great potential for development, dealing as it does with companies such as Virgin Airlines, Federal Express, Tower Air, British Airways, Syrian Air and, of course, Aer Lingus. The IDA should examine innovative ways of developing TEAM Aer Lingus and Shannon Aerospace because there is great potential for their future development. Ireland is very well placed to service aircraft and that sector of the business should be developed. I hope the IDA and the Government will consider such development. I agree with Deputy Yates that Ireland needs a hub airport.

Dublin needs it.

I would be biased in saying it should be based in Dublin.

What about Wexford?

The Deputy will not agree with me. We need a hub airport and are very well placed for such an airport. Developments such as those taking place in Manchester would be welcome in either Shannon Airport or Dublin Airport. There is an argument for both sides.

Fianna Fáil set up and nurtured Aer Lingus but some people give the impression that we do not care about the company now. All we insist on is a decent plan to indicate that any equity which we put in is not lost in current spending. That is not a lot to ask, as an obligation on behalf of the taxpayer.

Táim buíoch díot, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle agus den Aire as ucht deis cainte a thabhairt dom agus tréaslaím leis an Aire as ucht an méid duirt sé aréir.

There is widespread agreement on the value of Aer Lingus to an island economy in terms of tourism, jobs, industry and access generally. The Minister is right to insist that the viability plan for the airline be in place before the Government makes its decision on the level of funding. That is the only sensible option and it is a requirement of the European Community in this instance.

The fact that the Shannon red herring was trawled through the debate on numerous occasions reflects no credit on the previous Aer Lingus management. I understand that politicians in certain sensitive areas might feel obliged, because of their regional bias, to mention the issue, but any independent assessment carried out has come down very strongly against the argument that Shannon has done damage——

(Interruptions.)

A Deputy

Now, Ray.

He is not biased at all.

He is an objective commentator.

(Interruptions.)

I hope that Deputy Cox is not changing his mind now that he has gone to Cork.

You are doing well.

Thank you, Deputy and I strongly agree with what Deputy Carey said last night. That was a most welcome statement from the Deputy. It is possible for Aer Lingus to come up with a viable plan and it will be possible for the Minister and the Government to support that plan. The Minister's position is in perfect accord with his strategy in this matter. I have every confidence that the future of Aer Lingus will be assured. It is in our interests in terms of an island economy, that we have a viable national airline.

I would urge the Minister when he has dealt with this problem to put in place the Shannon Task Force because Shannon will also have a major contribution to make.

He is a long time finding a Chairman for that. Maybe he will get Mr. Cahill.

I welcome the opportunity to restate the position of the Labour Party on Aer Lingus. This debate is perhaps five to six weeks premature. Last October I gave an undertaking that the Labour Party would stand by Aer Lingus. That is still our position. Our commitment will be honoured in the context of a plan agreed by the management and the workforce and copperfastened by the Government in the form of the necessary equity.

It is important to have an aviation policy. The provision of £150 million for equity in the company may not resolve the problem for Aer Lingus unless it is coupled with an aviation policy. I welcome the policy outlined by the Minister last night but it must be fleshed out. Will the company have the commercial freedom to compete in the open skies market? That is very important.

There was a brief reference to the Shannon stopover. The Government have stated their position on that. If the Shannon stopover is to be retained, the cost to the company can be quantified. If the Government of the day decides to retain the stopover it is incumbent on it to pay a subsidy to Aer Lingus.

You are the Government.

I fully support the Government and I accept the commitment to equity, but I have slight reservations about the phrase "subject to constraints on the national finances". Can anyone tell me of any Minister for Finance who has not put on the "poor mouth" approach? In the mid eighties over £100 million was found to bail out ICI and it is conservatively estimated that the recent currency crisis could cost the State in the region of £450 million. The State is obliged to meet these costs. In view of this it is unfair to subject the provision of equity to a company whose return to the State in terms of tourism, trade and employment is remarkable, to the same criteria. The Minister should look at that.

I can appreciate the deep concern and worry of the staff of Aer Lingus, particularly when they do not know the terms of reference of the executive chairman, Mr. Cahill. It has been suggested that he will cut jobs. A job shedding exercise will not be acceptable to me or to the Labour Party. Given that we have a final opportunity to produce a plan to secure the future viability of the company, I now appeal to the Government, to management and to staff to grasp this opportunity. We have to ensure that there is confidence which will enable everyone working in Aer Lingus to have an input into this rescue plan.

The company should not be privatised. The necessary equity should be injected, and there should not be involuntary job losses.

There is a huge challenge in Aer Lingus, a challenge with a human dimension, an economic dimension and a national dimension. Our response must address each dimension. This challenge transcends party considerations and it will not be met by slogans, catchphrases or by point scoring.

I wish you would remember that at election time.

Across North Dublin city and county the livelihoods of thousands of men, women and children depend directly or indirectly on the well being of Aer Lingus. The total wage bill of the company in 1992 came to no less than £172 million. Taxation amounted to £63 million. That is only £5 million short of the entire State investment in Aer Lingus since its foundation, 56 years ago. In addition, Aer Lingus spent £90 million on goods and services, excluding expenditure on fuel and over £30 million on payments to Aer Rianta and the Government in relation to landing charges and so on. The State is committed to Aer Lingus. Mr. Cahill was appointed a few weeks ago to a very onerous job. He must be given the time to produce the analysis and the plan which will ensure the company's viability and the maintenance of every possible job.

He can adopt a bookkeeping approach or he can take into account the wider picture, recognising that airlines worldwide are going through a period of intense difficulty, but that all is not as gloomy as it first appeared, that the tangible and intangible benefits to the nation of a healthy Aer Lingus are vast, that it interacts with many facets of the economy such as the obvious commitment of the Government to the growth of the tourism industry, and to the development of indigenous industry in general. I hope this is the approach Mr. Cahill will take. I call on the Minister to insist that Mr. Cahill takes this broad approach to solving the problems of Aer Lingus.

Lest there be any doubt about the Labour Party's commitment on the question of equity, I will place on the record the remarks that the Tánaiste, Deputy Spring made last weekend at the Labour Party Conference in Waterford.

(Interruptions.)

Before I quote those words, I would say that the kind of posturing we are having from members of the Progressive Democrats in particular is rather rich——

We have not spoken on it yet.

——given the position they took before the election. I am sure that the staff in Aer Lingus are pretty glad that it is the Labour Party which is involved in Government now, rather than the Progressive Democrats.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I have not yet been given an opportunity to speak.

I should like to put on record what the Tánaiste said at the weekend. He said:

We are all aware that the period ahead must embrace elements of change and redirection for both management and other employees. We are committed, on the basis of the best assessment of what should be done for the years ahead, to support a plan for survival, recovery and development in the tough competitive world of the future. We are also committed, on the basis of such a plan, to a significant investment of equity by the State. Let there be no doubt about it such an investment will be made.

I am tempted to start by repeating some of the things my colleagues have just said but I will try to avoid doing that so far as I can. It is interesting to listen to Deputy Owen refer time and again to the commitments we made last November as if we were attempting to walk away from them. I would like to assure Deputy Owen — and I am sure she will be glad to hear it — that we are attempting to do nothing of the sort.

Why do the Labour Party keep asking the question then?

The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, will not even debate it.

Deputy McDowell to continue without interruption.

I am quite happy to repeat it. It has been said by some of our colleagues in the Democratic Left that this is a litmus test of this Government — I am happy to have it seen as that — and, in particular, how it deals with the public sector and public sector companies.

The Deputy is slightly pink, he is no longer red.

The roses have wilted.

I take this opportunity to repeat the two-fold nature of the commitment we made last November — which we repeated three weeks ago in this House and which the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, repeated publicly on national television last Saturday — that in the first instance we will not privatise the core airline business of Aer Lingus and, second, that we will provide significant and sufficient equity to the company. I heard Deputy Burke say earlier that this is not a good time to privatise Aer Lingus. There is never a good time to privatise major public companies; that has always been the position of my party. We believe we should not accept private equity into Aer Lingus for the reason that the importance of Aer Lingus extends beyond the thousands of jobs in north Dublin, Clare and Cork. It has a strategic importance in the economy as a whole in dealing with industry and tourism. As Deputy Killeen said — and I am sure Deputy Carey too — it is important in terms of the effect in the Shannon and mid-west regions. These are things that are above and beyond the profit motive. If we accept private equity into Aer Lingus effectively we are changing the ethos of the company. Companies or institutions who put equity into companies do so for the reason that they want to take profit from them. We could not expect them to do it for any other reason. Our interests, and those of the Minister, must go beyond that. The national interests of the Irish people are of paramount importance.

It would be useful if the Minister were now to give some indication of the amount of equity to be invested but I understand perfectly his reasons for not doing that. Clearly, whatever equity is provided will have to be sufficient. There is no point in our coming back in two years time seeking extra money because, as we understand it, the European Commission would not allow us to do so. If we were to put money into Aer Lingus now which, in two or three years time was to prove insufficient, apart from anything else, that would be a wholesale waste of taxpayers' money.

There is a process underway at present in Aer Lingus which involves three parties — management, the unions' representatives of the workers and Government. I welcome the statement by the union representatives in recent days that they fully appreciate the need for change in Aer Lingus and I fully appreciate what the Minister said last evening and on previous occasions. I have every confidence in the Minister and that the Government will not be found wanting when it comes to playing its part in any viability plan which is put together.

Aer Lingus is the standard bearer of the semi-State sector. Having started from very humble beginnings we see it now as the jewel in the crown. It is now an international carrier with all types of ancillary services being provided by a very large and dedicated workforce both in Ireland and abroad and it has been central to the expansion of the tourism industry. We got all that with a minimum of State equity and a maximum return, not to mention the tax revenue to the Exchequer from the workforce.

The present situation arose for a number of reasons, first, an act of God, the Iraqi war, and the recession, and, second, lack of planning by the previous Government. Both partners in that Government are to blame. The Progressive Democrats cannot wash their hands of this matter. Because of deregulation imposed by the EC they should have taken that in hand. Due to the lethargy and inertia of the previous Government, the Progressive Democrats——

Approved by the socialist majority in the European Parliament.

——who considered themselves to be a major partner despite their numbers, were found wanting at that time. The Labour Party has always been opposed to privatisation even though that was the only solution the previous Government could come up with at the end of 1992 when the crisis arose. Our commitment to Aer Lingus has been to streamline a good semi-State industry and not to privatise it.

Since the election, we made the categoric statement that we were standing by Aer Lingus. We did so as recently as 11 March in a day long debate here where the position was again stated by Labour Party Deputies and by our Fianna Fáil partners. On 3 April last we had a categoric statement from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, in relation to significant equity and on 4 April, we had a full scale debate at the Labour Party conference. We are not running away from anything, we are allowing it to be debated at every possible opportunity. I am disappointed that the Democratic Left should see fit, when we have set the procedures moving to introduce this motion——

Is it embarrassing?

——because it is spreading the idea that we are reneging on our commitments, which is not the case. Franklin D. Roosevelt said the one thing we have to fear is fear. I would be concerned that workers in Aer Lingus believe, because a motion such as this is tabled, that we are not committed to ensuring that their cares are taken heed of and that Aer Lingus will be put on a firm and sound footing with equity. The Fine Gael amendment is absolutely pathetic.

Is the Deputy going to vote for it?

They are seeking to delete the section from the Democratic Left motion which deals with privatisation. They want privatisation and at the same time they want equity.

They want to save the core activity.

They cannot have their cake and eat it, which is what they want.

It is the only way Aer Lingus will survive.

They cannot make up their minds and they are confused.

Can Deputy Costello define the word "streamline"?

I would ask the Deputy to conclude.

We are in the process of preparing a plan and a strategy is being devised. I should say that the Shannon stopover must be included in a cost-effective examination because we are talking about tax-payers' money and we must ensure that equity is invested wisely.

This is Private Members' Time and I cannot allow you to encroach on the time of other speakers. I would ask the Deputy to conclude.

We have the opportunity to do it and we will seize it.

I seek permission to share my time with Deputies Cox, Deenihan and Gregory.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I should like to read into the record the Progressive Democrats amendment:

To delete all words after "airline", and substitute the following:

"calls on the Government as a matter of urgency to formulate a comprehensive national aviation policy consistent with EC competition policy which addresses the needs of Aer Lingus, other relevant State agencies such as Aer Rianta, Bord Fáilte, SFADCo, the Regional Airports and the wider National Interest."

At the outset, it is time to congratulate the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, who is back in a minority Government, in view of some of the speeches I have listened to from Labour Party Deputies this evening. It is also significant that the Labour Party Deputies have abandoned the Minister on the Government side of the House while they sit in what we know to effectively be the Opposition benches. Labour Party Deputies are struggling with a simple question here tonight. They have the choice of voting on this Bill at 8.30 p.m. and they will be voting for the policy that the Minister states exists and which some Labour Deputies claim does not exist.

The Deputy is running with the hare and chasing with the hounds.

If Labour Party Deputies consider this is an area of conflict, there is a simple remedy by being honourable in this regard.

The crisis Aer Lingus is now experiencing was predicted on many occasions over the last number of years.

The Deputy's party did nothing about it.

The Deputy's party, should have supported Aer Lingus in this House in 1988 when it was in a healthy position, at least on paper. That time there were moves afoot to find a partnership for the development of that airline. Labour Party Deputies howled down such proposed developments day in day out and now they have reaped the whirlwind for the attitude they adopted while we tried desperately to seek some solutions.

The Deputy's party would have sold it off.

The deregulation of the airline industry inevitably meant that substantial changes would have to be made by Aer Lingus and all other airlines. Clearly, no adequate response was taken by Aer Lingus, and the luxury of profits from ancillary activities was used to submerge the true health of its core airline business. This is the reality and we have to decide here over the next number of weeks whether we are fighting to save an airline industry or some hotels outside this country. In my view we must save the core airline business.

I want to be unequivocal in stating that I believe Aer Lngus has an important future in the aviation industry. It is absolutely essential for the economic welfare of this country that Aer Lingus be restored to viability and health. But it must also be a commercial and efficient operation which can survive in the fiercely competitive, international open-skies era of air travel which now obtains.

To regard Aer Lingus as an operating airline similar to much larger mega airlines like British Airways or Lufthansa showed a clear lack of reality and flawed judgment by those who managed the company. Management should long ago have sought to get the scale of its operations, overheads and manning levels down to the appropriate level of the medium sized but very important airline that Aer Lingus is. Instead it was obvious that certain management people indulged in virtual empire building. Take 1991 for instance, when the financial problems of the airline were already clearly apparent. That was the year of the Gulf War and the worldwide downturn in the aviation industry. However, whereas other airlines were battening down the hatches and retrenching, Are Lingus in that year recruited an extra 1,370 workers, which saw its wages bill soar by over £40 million and in that year too they spent a further £170 million buying new aircraft.

The company simply cannot continue without major readjustments nor can it continue to accumulate losses of up to £100 million a year and sustain the burden of accumulated losses of over £500 million. That is why the formulation of our comprehensive national aviation policy is of such importance. But it must be a policy that strikes a fair balance in the interests of all regions in the country and it must also take into account the role of various agencies like Aer Rianta, Bord Fáilte, the regional airports, SFADCo etc.

Aer Rianta's role must be part of the national aviation stratgey. I was somewhat dissappointed by the Minister's outline of what he termed the national aviation strategy and that no reference was made to Aer Rianta's important role in that regard. There is no point in Aer Rianta being an extremely profitable company while Aer Lingus, its main user and contributor to those profits, is sustaining such huge losses. The cost structures that Aer Rianta imposes on all airlines using Irish airports will have to be considered in the context of an overall review. The number of incoming passengers to Ireland must be increased. The cost of access to Ireland is a crucial factor in the wellbeing of our tourism industry as well as the development of our business sectors in general. Therefore, Aer Rianta must be taken into account in the formulation of a comprehensive national aviation policy.

Another aspect which the Minister did not take into account yesterday was the development of our regional airports. As the Minister is aware, large allocations of Structural Funds have been poured into those airports and money has been raised also by ordinary citizens to support regional airports. We now have some fine regional airports strategically located throughout the country. Yet, it seems that, having built those important assets, no policy to develop those airports has emerged from the Minister's Department.

This is a disgraceful and inadequate response to those regional airports. The suggestion by the Irish Airline Pilots Association that a separate and autonomous division should be developed within Aer Lingus to deal with the regional airports should be carefully examined. I am not convinced it is the way forward but I believe it is something that should be considered in the context of maximising our national assets.

I want to make the point that only this week we saw in my area a new departure in Waterford Regional Airport with the commencment of flights by Manx Airlines from Waterford to Stansted and hopefully there will be further developments with a service from Waterford to Manchester. I sincerely hope that Aer Lingus is not once again going to see those developments as a threat to its existence. Those developments are surely complementary and should be seen as such and a vital development for both our aviation and tourism industries.

The Minister did not refer in his speech last night to the freight side of the airline business, which is a very important part of the aviation business. It seems that, with the disappearance of customs clearance posts within the EC, a great opportunity exists to develop a major clearing centre for freight into Europe from various parts of the world. Dublin is ideally placed to exploit this opportunity and would have the capacity for a substantial operation in this area. I realise that poses other questions down the line because of the way most major international carriers split passenger and freight carrying over long haul distances, particularly in 747s as they travel around the world. It raises the question of other regional policy issues here. The issue of regional policy over national policy must also be considered in the context of developing a type of hub in the freight industry, which we have disgracefully failed to do. The result is that we have seen Manchester blossom to the detriment of Dublin in the passenger end of business over the past number of years. This is something I regret and, indeed, hope will never occur in the context of the possibilities that exist in the freight industry.

Because of the mistakes of your Leader.

This is a very difficult and worrying time for the 7,000 staff in Aer Lingus and their families. Given the appalling level of unemployment in our society, it is only reasonable that everyone working in Aer Lingus looks with the greatest trepidation at the prospect of job losses in the company.

I stated when I spoke to the Aer Lingus staff at a mass meeting in Dublin Airport some weeks ago that the Government must put equity into Aer Lingus. That is a fundamental need. Secondly, they must seek to maximise the number of secure jobs that can be sustained so that the airline can be commercially successful and viable. Thirdly, and most importantly, the staff through their union representatives must be allowed participate fully in the formulation of new structures and plans for Aer Lingus and the aviation industry.

Hear, hear.

That consultative process is not evident in what is happening at present. Traumas and very difficult times had to be endured by Waterford Crystal and it was not until such time as all staff were involved and on the same wave-length, with a proper working agenda and a clear target to be achieved, that progress was made. The same mistake is being made in relation to Aer Lingus.

The Deputy's party is going to do to Aer Lingus what it did to Waterford Glass.

I will talk to the Deputy about Waterford Glass another day. I need no lessons from Labour Party Deputies. I object to their behaviour during the past few months. Their attitude prior to the election was despicable. I can understand parties in Government at least having to compromise and stand over what they do, but the cynical attitude of the Labour Party in this Government in regard to the what it is imposing on the electorate will be the greatest cross it will have to bear.

What about the U-turn?

Deputy O'Malley's incompetence?

It is good to stand up and hear the sound——

——of myself instead of the Opposition, or is it the Government on my right hand side, none of whom wish to be photographed with the Minister who tonight is speaking on behalf of the Government and with whom it will troop through the lobbies in about 35 minutes.

I agree with my colleague, Deputy Cullen, and all the other speakers who have contributed to this debate, that the national airline represents a major strategic asset. In that regard there is one common point in the contributions from Deputies.

I read with care the Minister's contribution to this debate. There are certainly many points which one can criticise but for the Minister to give his objectives of transport and aviation policy as the equivalent of a policy itself stops short of the mark. However, the Minister is taking the right approach. We must be careful with the issue of Aer Lingus. We will have one opportunity to address this problem and we must avail of it. I am glad the Minister is exercising caution and discretion in terms of defining what that opportunity should be. We will not get this opportunity again. Whatever happens in terms of equity investment will happen only once. The Minister is correct to address this problem with care.

There are many problems in Aer Lingus that people have highlighted and one problem concerns basic commercial decision-making by the management of that company. It is significant and fundamental to any long term reform that events are taking place at management level which will hopefully have a greater commercial effect on the overall outcome.

A number of points made in relation to policies that have been pursued are worth addressing. A very significant national economic element addressed by the Minister last night was that visitor numbers in the four years up to the end of 1991 increased by almost 50 per cent. Why was that the case? That was partly and, perhaps, even substantially, the case because access transport costs to visit this country reduced dramatically. Any aviation policy in the past that contributed to the reduction of access transport costs contributed significantly to the development of tourism here.

Some Deputies' contributions last night surprised me. They raised questions about having low access transport costs here. It is good for the consumer, for Irish business people, for Irish tourism and, ultimately, what is good for Aer Lingus must fit broadly within that context.

Provided it is not below cost.

It was not good for British Airways.

If we had British Airway's accounts at the moment we would be doing well and would not be having this debate tonight. The difficulty has been that pricing policy was decided by the airline's management and not by the Government.

Approved by the Government.

The Government is right to give a degree of commercial freedom to State bodies. It is contained in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, it is what the social partners agreed to, it is part of the process of encouraging commercialism within those bodies. In regard to that pricing policy, if we take, for example, Ryanair, which injected competition into the area — and I support and defend the achievement brought about by that — they were offering, on the London route, a Ford, in terms of quality, while Aer Lingus on the same route was offering a BMW but charging the price of a Ford for the same service. It was on that aspect that they began to have difficulties.

In terms of their investment in new fleet east bound, and in terms of fifth freedom, picking up in European airports and moving on elsewhere, that has not proved to be a commercial success. I do not know why that is the case but it is the case that they have been doing worse having followed that commercial policy than they were beforehand. Whether it is as a result of a market failure in selling the service I am not sure.

Points have been raised here regarding Shannon. I have been interested to see the tip-toeing that has been done by some Deputies. Some Deputies from this side of the House last night raised the question of the implications of the Shannon stop-over but seemed to stop short of saying that they wanted the Government to reverse that policy. The Government's explanation regarding the Shannon stopover has been unhelpful in terms of Aer Lingus problems. It may be one problem but the substantial problems of Aer Lingus would not be resolved if the policy were to be changed. To give an example, one could fly directly to Brussels from the United States in the same way that people fly directly to Dublin. Yet half of those people who arrive in Brussels from the United States have come through Frankfurt or London, just as people who arrive here have come through London or elsewhere. This happens because of the airline pricing policies and the hubs and spokes that operate in other jurisdictions, particularly in north America. We must get that into perspective. I will conclude on that point because I am sharing my time with other colleagues. I know Deputy Deenihan and Deputy Gregory want to contribute to this debate.

Are they colleagues now?

They are colleagues in terms of parliamentary activity and Deputy Bhamjee is also one of my colleagues. We may say a few words against each other now and again but the Deputy is one of my colleagues. The Minister is right to be cautious about this issue. We only have one opportunity to make this work. I am pleased that there have been changes in senior management and I would venture to suggest that they are long overdue. Far from being unwelcome, people in the workforce who can survive should welcome it.

The core activity of Aer Lingus needs to be protected. This is the key strategic asset which has been referred to by many people. If ancillary elements exist that can contribute to the protection of that core — I do not know whether the assessment of that will be positive or negative — we should have an open mind in this House about any measure which protects the core activity. In the end we must defend low access transport costs for Irish business, Irish industry, Irish services and for the development of Irish tourism. Anyone who says to the contrary is very wide of the mark if that is the way they suggest we save Aer Lingus or develop tourism policy in the future.

As Fine Gael's spokesperson for tourism I wish again to state the important part played by Aer Lingus in the promotion of tourism here. This debate cannot be taken in isolation. Aer Lingus and tourism are inextricably linked and when we consider the problems of Aer Lingus we must analyse the major contribution that it makes to tourism. I am glad several Deputies mentioned that because the survival of Aer Lingus is crucial to existing and future expansion plans for our tourism industry.

I read a comment last week in the Irish Independent by the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy McCreevy, in which he said that Ireland must become the most dynamic country in Europe as regards tourism by the end of this century. I agree with him but unless we have a strong national airline carrier we cannot realise that objective. That is why it is so important that Aer Lingus is preserved in a healthy financial position. Otherwise it will not survive.

Mention was made of access. At present Aer Lingus is the key provider of access to Ireland from all major markets. Indeed, access transport is one of the key factors which determines the success of a country's tourism industry. Tourists must be able to travel here quickly and at competitive fares from our main markets. As mentioned by previous Deputies Aer Lingus brought over 1.26 million visitors to Ireland in the 1991-92 season. This represents a third of all tourists who choose to fly into Ireland from abroad. Indeed, the name Aer Lingus is synomymous with Ireland and Irish tourism throughout the world. It is the main flagship for Irish tourism and a major contributor to the growth and success of Irish tourism through its overseas marketing and promotion. As Deputies are aware, Bord Fáilte's budget has been cut by approximately £15 million since 1985 and it is now up to Aer Lingus to do much of the vital overseas marketing for us. Aer Lingus employs approximately 400 sales and marketing personnel who are dedicated to attracting business from abroad. If that number is cut or diminished in any way it will reduce our tourism marketing effectiveness abroad. Aer Lingus is an important partner of Bord Fáilte in regard to advertising overseas. For example, this year Aer Lingus will contribute 20 per cent of the £1.6 million spent on the main tourism advertising campaign by Bord Fáilte on mainland Europe.

It is also worth noting that in addition to the expenditure on tourism promotion, Aer Lingus provides significant assistance to the tourism industry through flights for overseas travel agents, tour operators and conference and convention organisers to cover attendance at Bord Fáilte workshops in Ireland and inspection visits to this country. This applies also to press, television and other media personnel from abroad for public relations programmes. Most importantly, every year Aer Lingus provides free flights for several hoteliers, car hire people and cruising and self-catering marketing personnel on sales visits to overseas markets. This support is worth in excess of £1 million per annum to the tourism trade and the present level of tourism promotion by many individual operators could not take place without this support. Many hotel operators in my county and others engaged in tourism could not afford to go overseas to promote Ireland if they did not get assistance from Aer Lingus.

It is blatantly obvious that Aer Lingus is in serious financial trouble. Since 1986 net borrowings have increased from £28 million to £494 million in 1992 and operating profits no longer cover interest payment. The heavy losses in air transport now exceed the profits of the company's other business divisions. However, it is worth noting that Aer Lingus has spent over £500 million — almost as much as it owes at present — on 28 aircraft since 1987. Such investment must be taken into consideration. It is vital that the Boeing 747 aircraft be relaced by the mid-nineties if the company is to continue to serve the vital North American market. The current state of the airline's finances will not permit further investment and this will have drastic implications, especially for the North American market.

To their credit, the workers of Aer Lingus have already accepted cost reduction measures such as deferment of salary increments in 1991, rescheduling of payments under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and reduction in overtime levels. They have made sacrifices already and in any future plans for the company I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that they do not have to make any further sacrifices and that as many jobs as possible are preserved. It is vital for the people of Ireland that Aer Lingus is saved. We must preserve the 7,500 jobs, but we must consider also the 87,000 jobs in industry and the projected 25,000 we are trying to create. Aer Lingus will play a vital role in that regard.

I want to put on record my support for the motion put down by Democratic Left Deputies. I regard the Labour-Fianna Fáil Government amendment as totally inadequate. It tells us nothing of the Government's specific intentions regarding Aer Lingus. It is more or less the same as the amendment tabled by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government on 27 October 1992 when Deputy Spring of the Labour Party, then in Opposition, proposed a motion similar to that in the names of Democratic Left Deputies. It is as if this is a game with no real commitment to Aer Lingus or to the thousands of workers whose livelihoods depend either directly or indirectly on the airline. I am genuinely amazed that the Labour Party cannot bring itself to support this motion. Instead, it appears it intends to vote for a meaningless amendment which those who were in the last Dáil voted against in October 1992.

At the weekend I listened to the Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party and many other members of that party again pledge their support to Aer Lingus and to that magic word "equity". I hope they intend to honour their commitments because the Labour Party's record in Government, as far as adhering to its pre-election promises is concerned, is not good. Three of the priority commitments it gave in regard to social welfare, health and Aer Lingus have still not been delivered or honoured. We are continually told that the welfare cuts will go but more than half of them are still in operation.

(Interruptions.)

Perhaps the members of the Labour group might move over to the right and sit behind the Minister they intend to support tonight.

Deputy Gregory should sit with the Progressive Democrats.

We are continually told that the welfare cuts will go, but more than half of them are still in operation, just as we are repeatedly told that Aer Lingus will get equity. There is no indication as to how much, how little or when the Government intends to give that equity or, indeed, what price in terms of redundancies, job losses and privatisation this Labour-Fianna Fáil Government will demand in return for equity. Although the Labour Party did not stipulate such conditions prior to the election, the commitment to provide equity is continually referred to as being subject to constraints on the public finances and our wider responsibility to the taxpayer. There is no mention of equity in the Government amendments. There is reference to sufficient support for Aer Lingus only when a viable and convincing strategy for the future of the company is put in place. Nobody seems to be able to answer the question posed by the trade unions representing Aer Lingus workers. How can a strategy be put in place in the absence of any specific indication as to the amount of equity that will be available? How can a strategy be put in place when the Government instructs the airline to continue with the Shannon stopover even when the best advice available to it is that the Shannon stopover——

Thank you, Deputy.

With the agreement of the Whip, I may be allowed a few minutes to conclude.

We are now in the Government's time.

Government's time does not start until 8.10 p.m.

I regret having to interrupt the Deputy, but I must call a Government speaker.

Deputy Gregory may make an incursion into my time if he wishes.

At the outset, let me reiterate the acknowledgement and appreciation of the successes of Aer Lingus, over its relatively long and proud history, which my Government Ministerial colleague, Deputy Brian Cowen, expressed in this House, last night.

The airline business is a high risk and complex business. It is also an extremely important people business. Much of Aer Lingus's success is due to the calibre of the people, who have worked and still are working in the company. Aer Lingus's success since its foundation would not have been possible without the commitment, dedication and loyalty of its employees.

Aer Lingus staff in the past have faced up to major problems in their company and have helped to solve them. We have no doubt that the present staff will rise to the challenges posed by the current difficulties.

Our Government is committed to seeing Aer Lingus survive and prosper. As the Minister, Deputy Cowen has pointed out on a number of occasions in this House, the environment in which the airline operates has changed irrevocably.

The deregulation and liberalisation of air services internationally has increased competition in the industry to levels not seen before. Aer Lingus must become a highly efficient and competitive organisation in order to underpin its immediate future and long term development. This is the only way to protect long term employment in the company.

The Government is committed to ensuring the commercial future of Aer Lingus as part of its overall transport policy. This has been stated again by the Taoiseach and other members of the Government. It is enshrined in the Programme for a Partnership Government. Let there be no doubt, therefore, about the Government's commitment to Aer Lingus.

Commercial viability is a prerequisite for EC sanction, for any Government support for Aer Lingus. The European Commission will only approve any equity investment on the firm and clear understanding that it is for a necessary once-off restructuring of Aer Lingus in order to ensure a return to sustained commercial viability.

There have been various references during this debate to internal appointments in Aer Lingus. As the Minister, Deputy Cowen pointed out last night, he has no function in the matter of management appointments. These are a matter for the board of the company, on which there are four worker directors.

Deputy Cowen in his statement last night dealt with the spurious and malicious claims that the Government has no air transport policy.

One of the Minister's colleagues said the same tonight.

He did not. The Government's policy is clearly evident in the measures which it has consistently taken to strengthen the Irish presence on international air routes, to develop our State and regional airports, to provide the latest high technology radar and communications equipment — the development of Ireland as a "Centre of Excellence in Aviation".

Everybody agrees that Aer Lingus is facing very significant financial difficulties. There is no need, however, to be alarmist. This company has faced difficulties before. With the same determination, imagination and flexibility that both the company and its employees have shown in the past in overcoming those difficulties, we are confident that the present difficulties can and will be overcome with, I want to assure this House, full Government support.

It was suggested last night that the Government is hoping that the executive chairman will present so drastic a plan that the Government will be able to "bow out" of providing equity. That is pure fantasy. Deputy Cowen has made the position perfectly clear. Subject to the constraints on the national finances — and it is unrealistic to suggest that these can be ignored — the Government will provide sufficient support for Aer Lingus once a viable and convincing strategy for the future has been put in place. I commend the amendment to the House.

I thank all the Deputies who have contributed to this important debate. I must say I regret the fact that it has been largely a ritual exercise because of our inability to move the Government one whit past the position previously expressed in the House.

I see little point in going back over the history of Aer Lingus, the statistics with which we have been regaled, the number of passengers carried by the airline, the importance of the airline to the economy and the lump in the throat we all get as images of the shamrock in some far flung outpost of the world are conjured up and how proud this makes us. I do not think this is of any material interest to the workers or management in Aer Lingus. They have known the facts for a very long time and they have been trying to bring those facts to bear on the Government, who has responsibility for the national airline. Having looked at the Government amendment, they like us, have failed to impress on the Government the need for it to face up to its responsibility. There is little point in all of the talk in which Deputy Costello engaged about how Aer Lingus is the jewel in the crown, how tears come to our eyes when we see the shamrock flown on the tail of an Aer Lingus aircraft——

The Deputy is repeating himself.

It is nonsense.

It is true.

The purpose of this debate is to ask the Minister when he is going to confront the challenge in Aer Lingus. The Minister made only three points of any significance in his unscripted remarks last night. First, he delivered in no uncertain terms remarks which were designed to chastise the unions and to make it clear to them, in a most extraordinary sentence, that the amount of equity which was likely to be provided for the national airline would be in direct proportion to how mannerly he perceives the conduct of the trade unions to be.

In other words, if they behave themselves, the airline will get money.

The Minister stated:

In this connection, let me say that the degree of consensus and commitment emanating from discussions between the management and the unions will greatly influence the Government's attitude towards the degree of support it can provide for Aer Lingus.

What kind of a statement is that by a Minister who is supposed to take the matter seriously?

There is nothing wrong with it.

It is a big stick.

It is like saying they will get Brownie points if they go in smiling.

Deputy Rabbitte without interruption, please.

He is waving a big stick at the unions.

The unions will do their job.

The Deputy should confine his remarks to issues about which he knows something.

(Interruptions.)

The provision of equity for Aer Lingus is not a matter which should be decided on the whim of a Government.

That is correct.

Rather, it should be based on financial criteria. That is the only basis on which equity can be provided.

How many people does the Deputy know——

The second point of significance made by the Minister last night was, and I quote:

No options should be ruled out for consideration.

Liquidation.

The Deputy should say that again.

Fine Gael should keep quiet——

What does that mean to the Labour Party?

It is like a Punch and Judy show.

We know what the Fine Gael options would be if it got a chance.

Deputy Rabbitte without interruption, please.

I ask my Labour Party colleagues who are snuggling up to me so closely here — I am almost smothered; I cannot find any freedom to express myself — to note the commitment by the Minister that no options would be ruled out for consideration.

The Minister drew down the old EC veto, the restrictions on the Government in the provision of equity for the national airline. I ask the Minister if he supported this EC transport policy? Did the previous Government support this policy?

Who was the Minister involved?

I am sorry that Deputy Cox has left the House. He will have to appreciate, when he praises the Minister's caution, that this House and the national airlne were in business before he became a Member of this House. There is no particular need for caution. The Government has been seized of this problem for more than two years. That is the real genesis of the crisis we are now in. Talking about exercising caution, I am afraid Deputy Cox has missed out in which Parliament he is in. All sides of the debate now concede that the inaction of two previous Ministers, Deputy Séamus Brennan and the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, has greatly exacerbated the crisis and contributed to the scale of the crisis confronting both the workers and management. Despite urgent pleas from the Aer Lingus management, especially in 1991 and 1992, both Ministers contrived to avoid their responsibilities in the matter.

Remember Emmet, old friends are best.

You are on your own.

The full extent of the opportunities lost has not yet been revealed. The Minister, Deputy Cowen came into the House and blithely threw up his hands and said that the conditions for injecting equity now are different from what they were during the past two years. That is precisely my point. Why did neither of the Minister's predecessors act during the previous two years?

The price of dithering on the question of the Shannon stopover has been a costly one in terms of the future of Aer Lingus. I am surprised at Deputy Cox's remarks on this issue. I can assure the House that if the Progressive Democrats' Party had their headquarters anywhere but Limerick it would have a different view on the free market and the operation of competitive forces as it affects the Shannon stopover.

I concede that point to the Deputy.

The longer it took to make a decision on Shannon, the more ground was lost to Dublin and the more progress Manchester made in developing the kind of international hub to which Deputy Cox referred. Hit by the worst recession in the international air transport business in the past 50 years, the impact of the Gulf War and spiralling interest rates necessitated by the urgent purchase of new aircraft, successive Ministers with responsibility for transport have refused to act. Now the Minister, Deputy Cowen has entered, conducting himself like the Bart Simpson of this Government. What did he say in regard to the position? The Minister only eroded further the morale at Aer Lingus by making scapegoats of individual managers and by giving an Ian McGregor style mandate to Mr. Bernie Cahill who had presided as chairman through the worst period of decline in the history of Aer Lingus. There was no evidence of any major conflict of policy between Mr. Cathal Mullen, heading the management, and the board, headed by Mr. Cahill. However, in a move that defied logic Mr. Mullen became disemployed and Mr. Cahill became chief executive. The man whom a significant portion of the Government viewed as part of the problem in Greencore is considered to be part of the solution in Aer Lingus. Admittedly, Deputy Cowen has back-tracked on his outrageous conference of what he termed "absolute discretion" in regard to Mr. Cahill. He continues, nonetheless, to ensure that he himself is not involved in any overt participation in the decisions that have to be made.

It is nothing short of disgraceful, after seeing the damage done by the inaction of the new Minister's two predecessors, that he should withdraw to the sidelines and wash his hands of the biggest challenge to confront his ministry. Judging from the tone of the Minister's speech last night, he seems intent on remaining on the sidelines, from where he will issue occasional threats to the unions and management to get on with the task. The crisis at Aer Lingus is so grave in the context of jobs, strategic considerations, tourism growth and benefits from the planned expansion to the end of the decade, it is scandalous and unthinkable that the responsible Minister should cop out of its resolution. Ministers with responsibility for labour issues have fallen over themselves down through the years in claiming credit for the resolution of disputes that pale into insignificance by comparison to what is at risk in Aer Lingus.

It is irrational for the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to remain aloof from the resolution of the crisis and at the same time to make heavily qualified undertakings about equity support in the context of an agreed plan. Surely the shareholder is central to the emergence of such a plan? How does the Minister purport to address a position whereby there is indeed an agreed plan, a plan worked out between the unions and the management, that is predicated on a certain level of equity injection? Does the Minister purport to concede the target that is part of the plan or to allow the plan to fall apart when he cannot meet the target? Either proposition is absurd. The only sensible way forward is for the Minister to participate in the negotiations with the unions and management towards the evolution of that agreed plan.

Hands on.

The crisis will not be resolved by the Minister stepping aside. If the Minister is relying on negotiating with the unions through Mr. Cahill, it is a recipe for disaster. Having regard to the threat that confronts Aer Lingus, the Minister could be faced with the biggest scandal confronting the Irish economy in many years, a scandal concerning 14,000 jobs, more than 7,000 of which are here. Such a scandal could well be termed "Cowengate", if the Minister keeps his distance from the issue. I warn the Minister now, in time that he might have an opportunity to avoid "Cowengate" afflicting Aer Lingus and all its employees.

The Deputy is a rabbit raiser.

The only way that the Minister can be sure to avoid "Cowengate" is to roll up his sleeves and get stuck into the negotiations. It is completely unrealistic to give a mandate to the management and the unions to work out a plan contingent on equity participation. Any number of decisions could be taken, but how could the unions and managment agree them without knowing how much money the Government is prepared to put up?

Hear, hear.

I do not mean this with any disrespect, but I do not consider that the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications——

The Deputy is not fooling anyone.

I thought that Deputy Briscoe said he was tired. He should be quiet.

(Interruptions.)

We all know what the Fine Gael did to Aer Lingus in the forties when it closed off the airline. There are no friends in Fine Gael for Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus knows that and will not forget.

I say this with no disrespect to the Minister, the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications is not all that significant in the scale of things, but the crisis affecting Aer Lingus and the level of its importance in the economy should be the priority of the Minister. He should concern himself directly with the resolution of that crisis. If nothing else came out of this debate, if the Minister were to agree to try to resolve the crisis, I would be a great deal more optimistic.

I listened carefully to the contribution by Deputy Derek McDowell, who uses words carefully. He said that while the Labour Party was in Government there would be no privatisation of the core business. I think Deputy Gregory also referred to this point. The meaning of what was said is crystal clear, it means that the rest of the business will be sold. That is amazing in the context of the view of all commentators, which is that in present circumstances it would amount to a fire sale. It is regrettable if that concept has been given the nod by the Labour Party in Government. I say to my friends and colleagues in the Labour Party that to have a hang-up about privatisation in the sense that it is being trotted out here, as meaning that the soul of the Labour Party is intact and that there will be no privatisation of Aer Lingus, is almost meaningless in the context of the scale of the problems affecting Aer Lingus and modern world aviation conditions.

The Financial Times reported on Monday last that the four airlines KLM, Swissair, Austrian Airlines and SAS are talking about linking up. If the significance of Aer Lingus in the Irish economy is to be maintained, it seems inevitable that Aer Lingus will link up with another airline in the not too distant future. In saying that, I mean no disrespect to anybody in Aer Lingus, workers or management. The challenge facing us is to get as far as a link up. We are not even at the table, because of the inaction on the part of the two previous Ministers with responsibility for transport and because of the people who allowed the crisis to develop. When other comparable airlines were getting their act together and facing up to new conditions in the context of the European Community about which the Minister has told us so much, the managment of Aer Lingus were making pleas to Ministers in Government at the time, which fell on deaf ears. The Labour Party's mantra about no privatisation is insignificant. As a Deputy behind me said, that was much more important in relation to Greencore. There was overwhelming logic in the concept of maintaining a major indigenous food company such as Greencore in State hands, but that concept has been sacrificed.

Finally, I wish to refer to what we will be voting for tonight, not the motion tabled by the Democratic Left but the Government amendment. The Government amendment makes very clear what we are being required to do.

I must ask the Deputy to conclude his remarks.

There is still a minute remaining on the clock I am looking at, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The Government amendment makes it clear that what we are being required to do is endorse Government policy. Government policy is defined in the amendment as meaning, and I quote:

... supports the Government's decision to provide, subject to constraints on the national finances, sufficient support for Aer Lingus ...

That is virtually meaningless. At this eleventh hour I appeal to my colleagues in the Labour Party that — contrary to Deputy Joe Costello's statement that this motion is six weeks too early — it will be six weeks too late as soon as the Minister brings a decision into this House which we will not be able to change. Now is the time for the Labour Party to do what they have to do on this amendment. If they are serious about extracting from the Government the necessary equity to resolve this dispute and if unions and management get together on devising a viable future for Aer Lingus, now is the opportunity to do it. They cannot console themselves with this amendment, because it is meaningless, does not advance the argument one whit. It will be worthless tomorrow; it says nothing; it makes no specific commitments on equity, which is the only issue facing the House this evening. I appeal to them to support the amendment at this stage.

As it is now 8.30 p.m. I must put the question on amendment No. 1 in the name of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. The question is: "That the amendment be made".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 44.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffat, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cox, Pat.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies Rabbitte and Gilmore.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 not moved.
Question: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to" put and declared carried.
Barr
Roinn