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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 1993

Vol. 436 No. 2

Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1993: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

At the outset I wish to join other Deputies in expressing my good wishes to the Minister of State at the Department of the Marine, Deputy Gerry O'Sullivan. He is a very pleasant person — probably one of the most pleasant Members of the House — and I wish him good health.

The main purpose of the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1993 is to provide a special scheme of social insurance for share fishermen. This is an area of particular interest to many Deputies and I am pleased to bring forward legislation which will address the special difficulties faced by share fishermen. In keeping with our approach of using gender neutral language whenever possible, share fishermen are referred to in the Bill as people engaged in share fishing. The Bill also provides for regulatory powers under which specified employers and contractors may be required to keep a register of employees and subcontractors engaged by them.

In the past, share fishermen were regarded as employees for social insurance purposes and as such were insured for the full range of social insurance benefits. Their insurability status changed however following certain court decisions. Arising from a case brought by the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Collector-General in 1986, known as the McLoughlin case, the High Court held that the skipper of a particular fishing vessel and his crew should not be regarded as employer and employees for PAYE purposes. While this decision did not directly affect the insurability status of share fishermen, it did necessitate an amendment to the regulations regarding the collection of PRSI contributions from share fishermen. They were no longer covered by the PAYE system. The new social welfare provisions introduced in 1988 deemed the owner, bailee or lessee, as appropriate, to be the "employer" of the "crew" for PRSI purposes. It was in this way that the Minister for Social Welfare at the time tried to keep the people engaged in share fishing within the system so that they would be eligible for the benefits which they obviously needed.

The social welfare provisions were subsequently challenged in 1992 in the Griffiths case. Arising from this, the High Court found the regulations to be ultra vires and held that a person could only be deemed to be an employer where an employer/employee relationship existed. As a consequence of this decision, share fishermen could no longer be regarded as employees for social insurance purposes in the absence of a contract of service. They then became insured as self-employed people and as such are covered for widow's and orphan's and old age contributory pensions. They no longer have cover for unemployment or illness.

Following on the decision of the High Court, I met with representatives of the Irish Fisherman's Organisation, IFO, and the Killybegs Fisherman's Organisation, KFO, to discuss their concerns regarding the absence of cover for short term benefits. Share fishermen are in a unique position in so far as social insurance is concerned. Prior to the court decision in 1992, they were always insured as employees and thereby entitled to the full range of social insurance payments. Through no fault of their own, and without any changes in the way in which their work is organised, they ceased to be so insured. The harsh nature of Irish weather conditions for fishing and local tie up arrangements and quotas leave share fishermen open to enforced periods of unemployment at certain times of the year. The difficult conditions under which they work also expose them to increased risks of illness. In this Bill, I am proposing to provide share fishermen with this vital cover.

Part 2 of the Bill provides for the new scheme. People whose principal means of livelhood is derived from share fishing will have the option of paying additional special contributions if they have income of at least £2,500 per year. Share fishermen who opt into the new scheme will pay special contributions. These contributions will amount to 5 per cent of their income in the previous income tax year. Contributions will be payable up to the PRSI earnings ceiling currently set at £20,000 per year. A minimum annual contribution of £250 will apply. For these contributions, share fishermen will get disability benefit for up to 12 months in any continuous period of illness and unemployment benefit for up to 13 weeks in any one year.

The new optional contributions will be payable from the income tax year commencing 6 April 1994. Those who opt into the new scheme will become entitled to benefit form January 1996. The contributions payable will be collected directly by my Department.

This special scheme of social insurance for share fishermen is an important development in the provision of comprehensive social insurance cover. There are about 2,000 people engaged in share fishing. The new scheme will allow them opt for social insurance protection for themselves and their families during periods of illness and unemployment.

Section 11 provides for regulatory powers under which specified employers and contractors may be required to keep, at a specified place, a register of all employees and subcontractors engaged by them. These records will be available for inspection by social welfare inspectors. This measure will strengthen further my Department's hand in combating fraud and abuse.

The question of fraud and abuse in social welfare has been the subject of recent media attention. I want to emphasise that the vast majority of social welfare recipients are genuinely entitled to the payments which they receive. I would like to take this opportunity to outline for Deputies the wide variety of measures aimed at combating fraud and abuse currently being pursued by my Department.

We allocate significant resources each year to the social welfare area, £3.7 billion in the current year. These resources must be managed effectively in the taxpayers' interest. I have taken, and will continue to take, a serious view of people who defraud or abuse the system, whether they are claiming payments to which they are not entitled or whether they fail to pay PRSI contributions which they are required to pay. The measures which I have introduced over the past nember of years, and particularly since 1991, are very effective.

The detection of fraud and abuse is an integral part of the work of my Department. All officers involved in the processing and payment of social welfare entitlements have a function which involves the prevention and detection of abuse of the schemes and the elimination of fraud. Some 13 per cent of the staff of the Department or 530 officers are now involved specifically on combating fraud, abuse and unwarranted claiming. This staff investment is more than justified.

Prior to 1991 approximately 2,500 to 3,000 employer inspections were carried out each year. Since 1991, 40,000 such investigations, representing about one third of all employers, have been undertaken. Overall, the increased inspection activity has a positive effect and will be continued with planned inspections of at least 10,000 employers taking place each year in future.

These inspections comprise a mixture of comprehensive inspections of employer records and visits where the employers are made aware of their responsibilities with regard to the social welfare and tax laws. In addition, inspectors also ensure that employees are not concurrently working and claiming a social welfare payment. This global approach to investigations is proving to be very effective. The best place to detect working and claiming is at the work place and this is borne out by the experience of my officials working on the ground.

The regulatory powers provided for in section 11 will be used initially to require employers in the construction industry to keep records of employees and people engaged by them under a contract for service, contractors, sub-contractors and their staff. The records in question will have to be kept in the site office and be available for inspection by social welfare inspectors. The need to target the construction industry is evidenced by the results achieved so far by the special anti-fraud unit which I set up last year. So far, this unit has inspected more than 550 building sites in the Dublin, Wicklow and Kildare areas and its activities have already saved the taxpayer around £2.5 million. The unit identified 600 people drawing social welfare payments illegally as well as detecting irregularities in PRSI payments. Those found illegally drawing payments are now facing the prospect of prosecution in the courts and those convicted can expect to receive severe penalties including jail sentences. In two recent cases, jail sentences of two years and ten months respectively were imposed. Two new squads in Dublin and one in Cork have now been set up as a result of the success of this initiative.

My Department is also pursuing employers in the construction and other industries to ensure that proper employment records are being kept for all employees and that proper notification is being made of new employees and sub-contractors. In many cases people who defraud the system are being helped, sometimes unknowingly, by employers who fail to comply with these requirements. Failure to comply renders employers liable to prosecution and to repay any social welfare payment drawn illegally by their employees. For example, in a recent case an employee who was in receipt of unemployment assistance was discovered working on a site in North County Dublin. The employer failed to notify my Department that the person had taken up employment with him and as a result, has been surcharged with the amount of unemployment assistance illegally claimed by the employee, some £200 per week.

The regulatory powers I am providing in section 11 of the Bill will complement the existing provisions under which employers and other people in the construction, forestry, security, road haulage and certain other industries are required to notify my Department of new employees and subcontractors engaged by them. This year alone almost 13,500 such notifications have been made to my Department.

These measures have been widely welcomed by legitimate employers anxious to ensure fair competition within industries so that unscrupulous employers will not be able to undercut their competitors and cheat the taxpayer.

Other special units have been operating in my Department with great success. These include the special investigation unit which works with the Revenue Commissioners. External control units operate to ensure that those receiving payments from the Department are legitimate recipients.

The various control activities undertaken by my Department have saved the taxpayer some £84 million in 1992. This year it is likely to be of the order of £100 million. The total saved since these control initiatives began in 1991 will be well over £200 million by the end of 1993.

On the wider issue of social insurance, Deputies will be aware of the recent public debate about the level of employers' PRSI contributions and their possible negative impact on jobs in labour-intensive manufacturing industry. I met representatives of the Irish Clothing Manufacturers Federation recently who argued that lowering the rate of contribution would help firms trying to maintain and increase their employment levels. This is an issue I plan to address in the immediate future in the context of the report of a working group under the chairmanship of my Department.

Irish employers already pay rates of PRSI contribution which are low by international standards. A further problem for some sectors is lower wages and labour costs in the United Kingdom, our nearest competitor. The rate of employers' PRSI in the UK is related to wages. Wages under £140 a week attract an employer contribution of 6.6 per cent or lower. In Ireland the standard rate of employer PRSI is 12.20 per cent of earnings. While there is no upper ceiling in the United Kingdom system, unlike here where PRSI stops at £21,300, the lower rate of PRSI available gives United Kingdom competitors a significant advantage in the cost of their production. Any restructuring of rates which reduces the income of the Social Insurance Fund will have to be assessed in the light of the need to maintain the value of benefits paid out of the fund. If a restructuring of employers' PRSI can make a useful contribution in the fight against unemployment, I will move quickly and positively to introduce whatever changes are needed.

In this regard, I have extended to April 1994 the closing date for recruitment of new employees under the employers' PRSI exemption scheme I introduced earlier this year. This scheme has been made more flexible in order to encourage a greater up-take and, unlike previous schemes, operates for a two year rather than a one year period. To date almost 3,400 employees have been approved under this scheme and a further 400 applications are being processed at present.

I would like to make known to the House that I will be introducing a technical amendment to the Pensions Act during the Committee Stage of the Bill. The purpose of the amendment is to confirm that the selection of trustees requires a majority of members of the scheme who actually vote rather than a majority of the members of the scheme. There has been some confusion about this issue. To make it absolutely clear, I should say that I shall be introducing an amendment demonstrating clearly that the majority relates to a majority of the members present and voting. There are other conditions governing the numbers of members who should be present.

The regulations I made in July last to enable members of pension schemes to elect their own trustees become effective on 1 January next. The regulations provide that members of the country's 31,000 occupational pension schemes will be able to choose their trustees to represent them. There are almost 500,000 members of occupational pension schemes. I provided a substantial lead-in time for this development to give employers, trustees, pension schemes and trade unions ample time to prepare and train people to become member trustees. I made the regulations early purposely so that everybody involved would have time to consider the implications——

Is that before the Minister for Finance hits pension schemes?

The importance of having member trustees cannot be understated when one considers that there are up to one million people, including dependants and pensioners, who have a direct interest in the wellbeing of pension schemes. The investment of moneys here at home to create jobs in excess of £10 billion — it has risen considerably in the past year, I believe, towards £12 billion — began from my discussions with the chairman of the Pension Funds' Association. The House will realise that it is quite feasible; in fact, as Members may have noticed, they have come forward themselves with proposals to invest of the order of £15 million initially and to consider further investment in indigenous projects and efforts in order to contribute specifically to the creation and maintenance of employment.

The Minister will underwrite the risk?

There will be no problem at all in doing so. The House will realise readily that there are different degrees of risks within pension funds, especially in circumstances in which younger people contribute, when there is a long period within which to recover. We are in a very strong position in that we have a high proportion of young people contributing to our pension funds. In any event, the wisdom of the pension funds managers has been applied to this issue——

Blame them.

——so I think the House can be happy that that will work out quiet well.

Under the regulations it will be mandatory for all schemes with 50 members or more, and directly-invested schemes with 12 members or more, to have member trustees if at least 15 per cent of the members, or the members' trade union, request the appointment of member trustees. The selection of member trustees provides further safeguards for members of pension schemes whose assets are worth, I believe some £13 billion.

Does the Minister mean he did not read his script before coming into the House?

No. I said the figure was £12 billion, whereas it is now actually £13 billion. I welcome the recent report on pension fund investment, prepared on behalf of the pension industry and the Department of Finance, which recommends investment of up to £15 million in job creation projects.

On Committee Stage I will be introducing amendments to entitle volunteer development workers to the full rate of unemployment benefit and disability benefit on their return to Ireland. I know this is an amendment which Members will welcome. This provision will apply in the case of development workers who would otherwise qualify for reduced rate benefits. Under existing arrangements a person must have earnings of not less than £70 per week in the governing contribution year to qualify for the full rate of payment. Reduced rates of benefit related to the level of earnings are payable to people whose income is below £70 per week.

Volunteer development workers receive credited contributions while working overseas which enable them to qualify for unemployment benefit and disability benefit. They only qualify for the minimum rate of payment because of their modest earnings in the relevant year.

There is already a range of special provisions under which volunteer development workers who are paid at "local" rates of pay in the developing countries receive preferential treatment under our social welfare code. For example, over the years we have introduced various measures to be of assistance to them on returning here. They are exempt from liability for social insurance contributions while abroad and are awarded credited contributions for a period of absence up to five years; they are exempt from the employment condition for entitlement to maternity benefit; and can qualify for treatment benefits with a minimum number of contributions.

According to APSO, the Agency for Personal Services Overseas, there are some 400 Irish volunteers abroad at present. These workers do tremendous work in developing countries and as we have unfortunately seen in recent times, often at great personal risk.

The present improvements in the rates of unemployment benefit and disability is further evidence of the Government's commitment, in our Programme for a Partnership Government, to safeguard the social welfare rights of volunteer development workers.

Last week, I made the commencement order to bring the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1993, into force. This is a major achievement which ensures that legal provisions which benefit such a large proportion of the population are readily accessible. During Committee Stage of the Consolidation Bill, I undertook to publish a guide to the provisions contained in the Bill. This guide has now been published and has also been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am delighted with the very positive reaction it has received. Social welfare law should be readily understood and this guide describes the provisions of the Consolidation Act in a simple and straightforward way.

Following the publication of the new Consolidation Act, my Department commenced work on consolidating the various regulations made under the Act. Deputies may recall that I undertook during the passage of the Consolidation Bill to bring forward during the current session a consolidated regulation covering all of the social assistance schemes administered by my Department. I am pleased to be able to advise the House that this new regulation will be made within the next few days.

In conclusion this is the third Social Welfare Bill which I have introduced this year. It provides vital cover in the event of illness or unemployment for share fishermen and provides a remedy for the special problems for the fishing community which arose from a High Court decision last year; tough new regulatory powers to tackle abuse of PRSI and social welfare in certain sectors including the building and construction industry; enhanced entitlement to disability and unemployment benefits for volunteer development workers on their return from abroad, and consolidates the rights of members of the country's 31,000 occupational pension schemes in relation to selecting trustees to represent their views.

The Bill represents a further major development in the provision of social welfare services. It safeguards particularly vulnerable groups of workers and ensures their access to social protection.

I commend this Bill to the House.

I classify the Bill as a Trojan horse for many measures not included in the original Bill published last week. Members did not have an opportunity to consider the full implications of the provisions of the Bill due to insufficient time. My party will be allowing the Bill through on Second Stage but we will subject it to close scrutiny and table amendments on Committee Stage. We also await the Minister's amendments to which he referred earlier.

This issue has been raising its head for many years. I read speeches by my colleague, Deputy Doyle going back to 1990 when she was a member of the Seanad. This is a grey area. The uncertainty in which share fishermen found themselves arose from the McLoughlin judgment in 1986 and a subsequent judgment in 1992. The judgment in 1986 resulted in uncertainty for share fishermen in that they found it difficult to establish their entitlements and to meet the scrutiny of the means test for unemployment assistance. By the time they had satisfied the officials concerned they were back at sea. It took eight, ten and sometimes 12 weeks to complete the scrutiny of their application. Because of the nature of their work they were back at sea and working again before their claims were adjudicated upon.

There is enormous distrust between share fishermen and social welfare inspectors despite the fact that these fishermen wanted to regularise their position over many years. Due to the uncertainty they could not get medical cards or take out mortgages. This had an enormous social effect on the people concerned as well as their families. Down through the years Deputy Doyle has pleaded with the Minister to take the necessary steps to eliminate the confusion. They are not self-employed in the same sense as shopkeepers and small business people because they have no control over their employment. They are employed at the whim of skippers and the weather; in other words they do not have control over their own destiny.

This Bill introduces a new insurance contribution class to ensure that if they pay at the rate specified in the Bill they will be covered for 13 weeks on shore through bad weather. In times of sickness they will be covered for up to 12 months. Therefore, this Bill will bring some order to a chaotic situation.

This Bill is the first step in the right direction. I am glad the pressure from this side of the House to regularise the situation is now being brought to fruition. It has taken a long time to bring this Bill before the House and, as I indicated, my party will be tabling amendments on Committee Stage.

Share fishermen have been ineligible for social welfare benefit or assistance of any kind because of the uncertainty of their position. At times they are deprived of supplementary welfare allowances from health boards. Along the coast of Wexford, west Cork and Donegal there are dozens of hungry families going without the essentials of life. That is the reality. There are families trying to keep their children at school, they do not have medical cards and are finding it almost impossible to look after the needs of their families, some of whom are again facing a very bleak Christmas. Up to now their view was that the Government had abandoned them.

The court decision in the case of the Minister for Social Welfare v. John Griffiths was delivered on 14 February 1992. In this case a dispute arose when Mr. Griffith was the owner of a fishing vessel called Sovereign Dawn. A man called Eugene Pepper fished with the accused from some time after Christmas 1989 until June 1990. I will not delay the House with the details of the case but the court judgment had major implications for fishermen. Many fishermen found themselves in very difficult situations. They had hoped that the Government, and in particular the Ministers for the Marine, Finance and Social Welfare, would work towards regularising their situation. That has not happened yet.

This Bill must be given a qualified welcome. It was produced and presented to the House at short notice. However, there is a high degree of confusion as to whether share fishermen are compulsorily insurable as employees for social welfare proposes.

The Minister has announced new measures to combat social welfare fraud. On this issue, the Minister must ensure that sensitivity is shown to the thousands of people in receipt of social welfare payments, to those who are unemployed, ill or incapacitated through no fault of their own. We have reached the dangerous point where all of these unfortunate people are being tarred with the same brush. They feel they are being made the scapegoat for the failure of economic and fiscal policies.

I have read Mr. Maurice Doyle's recent remarks, but I can see he is attempting to focus national attention on vital issues, and one of the issues highlighted was the question of social welfare fraud. However, there is now a perception that everybody dependent on social welfare is under suspicion. Let me put on record that 50 per cent of the rise in unemployment in recent years has been as a direct result of domestic policies and only 30 per cent of that figure has arisen because of external factors. Some of the recent comments have come from a quarter that has cost this country hundreds of millions of pounds because of the decisions that were made during the devaluation fiasco.

The Government has failed to introduce controls in the area of social welfare. A recent report indicates that up to 8 per cent of GNP is being produced by the black economy. I cannot say whether that is true, neither can the Minister nor the Minister of State, but we must come to grips with fraud. In certain areas highly organised operators and employers conspire to defraud the system; but there is a difference between that and the man or woman who is trying to support a spouse and family on just over £100 per week who may go down the road to do a job for a few hours for which he or she gets an extra few shillings.

It is very hard to condemn the individual on social welfare who tries to earn a bit of extra money for Christmas. Some of those who are commenting on social welfare are totally out of touch with the reality in our cities and towns. Children are going to school hungry and but for the commitment and generosity of teachers in primary schools they would be studying day in, day out on an empty stomach. My most horrific experience as a public representative was three years ago when a young man and his three year old daughter came to one of my clinics just before Christmas to plead for financial help. Two days later he had taken his own life because of the pressures of not having money to provide for his children at Christmas.

That is the reality of life at present. I have to restrain myself when I hear some people, over the whiff of cigars and champagne, commenting on issues that they really do not understand. I am not referring in particular to Mr. Doyle's comments, because I believe he has a broader agenda; but I suggest that people be sensitive when commenting on those who have no control over their destiny and are dependent on the State.

We will not oppose this Bill on Second Stage but we await with interest some of the additional issues which were not covered in the Bill but which the Minister has raised here this morning. I will delay further comment until I see the details of the additional provisions.

They are very simple and I am sure the Deputy will be happy with them.

The simple ones are often the most dangerous.

I would not do a thing like that.

I welcome this Bill, which provides for the introduction of an optional social insurance scheme for those engaged in share fishing. People whose principal source of livelihood is derived from share fishing will have the option of paying additional special contributions which will provide insurance for disability and unemployment benefits. This Bill also includes a provision on the keeping of records by employers and contractors.

The Progressive Democrats have always argued that the system of social insurance should be as comprehensive as possible. My party believes no group should be left outside the system. We hold the view that the system of social insurance is an expression of social solidarity and citizenship in which the risks and costs should be spread as widely as possible in the community. Positive aspects of the social insurance system should be stressed. Social insurance contributions create a sense of entitlement to benefits and also generate public support for these benefits. This is a very important principle. Furthermore, there is a strong link between the number of contributions made and entitlement to benefits. The number of contributions paid and the period over which they are paid should relate to one's entitlement to benefit. Where finances permit we should provide the maximum level of benefit to those who pay social welfare contributions. That would make contributions to social welfare more acceptable. There would also be less antagonism to the payment of social insurance contributions, which are very necessary to finance the various schemes.

The alternative to the concept of social insurance is to do away with all social welfare benefits as an entitlement and to means test all payments. That would be a retrograde step and a return to the days of the Poor Law support. However, I believe we should examine the possibility of allowing those in receipt of unemployment or sickness benefit to continue to pay social insurance contributions while in receipt of benefit. Under all types of insurance the beneficiary must continue to pay the premium. I do not understand why there should be any difference for those in receipt of disability, unemployment and unemployment benefits and contributory old age pension under the social insurance scheme. The system is funded on a "pay as you go" approach. If everyone was expected to pay contributions even through times of unemployment or sickness it would do away with the credited contributions network which confuses so many people and it would remove the fear of many people as to what will happen to them when their credited contributions have exhausted. People fear means-testing when they do not understand it. My suggestion would remove the fear of the means-testing. My party has always acknowledged that we should give the best protection we can afford to those who are less well off.

At present a staggering £3,000 million is needed to fund social welfare benefits. The taxpayer cannot be asked to pay continuously increasing contributions. We must try to broaden the base so that more people will make contributions, otherwise as benefits are exhausted people will end up drawing means-tested payments from the State without having to make any worthwhile contribution.

I am worried about contribution conditions having been altered to reduce the level of benefit payable. There has been a reduction in the length of time for which one can receive certain benefits, giving rise to charges about the dirty dozen social welfare cutbacks. While I do not agree with the comments made about the dirty dozen, tinkering with the contribution traditions and reducing benefits makes it less wothwhile for people to contribute with the result that they try to dodge these payments.

The Progressive Democrats were in Government with Fianna Fáil when those 12 cuts were made.

Deputy Doyle should restrain herself.

There have also been alterations to the maternity benefit scheme and the same entitlements as before are not available under the treatment benefit scheme. We should pay the maximum benefits where we can afford to, in order to keep the principle of social insurance alive.

The 13 different classifications of social insurance contributions have not been addressed in this Bill. The fact that there are 13 different classifications contributes to a cumbersome, time consuming crazy system. One would want to be an expert to disentangle the various contribution rates and conditions attached to them. These classifications could be reduced to three, thus simplifying the system. Contribution conditions have been established to preserve a fair balance between the contributor and the beneficiary but the contribution records should be sufficient to establish eligibility for benefit and there should be a difference between short term and long term payments. If the unemployed and the sick had to make contributions to continue in benefit in the same way that they pay health insurance, these benefits could be extended because there is very little difference between the standard rate of benefit and the standard rate of assistance.

I would welcome that approach because it enhances the position of those who are long term unemployed and those dependent on social welfare assistance schemes although it has a negative effect on the contributors. If everybody who is unemployed was given the opportunity to pay back some small contribution all these differences would disappear.

Share fishermen now constitute part of the self employed category and make up 18 to 20 per cent of the labour force. I cannot understand why such self employed people are being given the opportunity to opt into a new scheme subject to such conditions as may be specified in the regulations and why they are not covered by the provisions for the self employed people. My understanding is that share fisherman could claim the supplementary welfare allowance if they could not go to sea or if the fishing catch was not profitable and that even if they could go to sea for a limited number of hours they could fall into the category of part-time employees. They should not be denied benefits.

I support the Bill with some reservations. Further provision should be made in regard to widows contributory pensions, old age contributory pensions, maternity benefit and deserted wives' benefit — I will refer to those on Committee Stage.

Section 8 refers to the conditions for the receipt of unemployment benefit. In relation to share fishermen the definition as to what constitutes work is open to abuse. I am not happy with section 8 (c).

Section 46 of the Principal Act refers to the duration of eligibility for unemployment benefit and under this Act benefit can be paid for up to 156 days. I regret that the Minister is amending that section in regard to share fishermen and reducing entitlement to benefit to 78 days, half of what was intended for other workers in section 46. We should give the widest range of benefits to encourage the maximum number of people to participate in the social insurance fund. This is not the way to do it and I will refer to this on Committee Stage.

Part 3 refers to the maintenance of proper records and I wholeheartedly support that amendment to the Principal Act. Accurate records should be kept of all persons employed whether the employment relates to a service contract or not and these records should be available for inspection by departmental officials. Such records will help in controlling fraud. I recognise that in any system opportunites exist for fraud and that measures are necessary to control this especially where public funds are concerned.

There is great concern at the extent of perceived or real fraud in the social welfare system and prosecutions are few and far between. The staff in the investigation units is not adequate to police the large number of people currently in receipt of social welfare payments. I would support any measures to improve the situation and, where possible, eliminate fraud.

I broadly welcome the provisions of the Bill and will be looking closely at some of them on Committee Stage.

I suspect at this stage that apart from the Minister, Deputy Clohessy may have been the only Deputy who has had time to consider this Bill in detail. That reflects the problem the House is facing in that Members are rapidly running out of legislation with which to deal. That may be a reflection on the effectiveness of the committees——

I have done my best. I have produced three Bills.

——who have been operating since earlier this year. We need to look seriously at how the business of the House is being ordered. This Bill was to have been taken tomorrow and I had geared my work schedule accordingly.

So had I.

This will be reflected to some extent in the contributions which will be made on the Bill. We have improved the throughput of legislation through committees, but we now need to improve the throughput of the printing of legislation so that Deputies have sufficient time to consider legislation before Committee Stage.

In general I welcome the Bill, although I am somewhat concerned that the Minister proposes to introduce amendments on Committee Stage relating to other areas of the social welfare code. I do not know what my attitude will be to those amendments, although the Minister stated he is introducing them to improve the rights of pensioners receiving occupational pensions and the rights of development workers. I have no doubt that it is the Minister's intention, but it is somewhat unusual that he should introduce such matters on the Committee Stage of a Bill which is not specifically designated to cover such matters. That is an example of my earlier point in regard to having adequate time to consider amendments. In general legislation that is rushed through the House does not measure up to what is required in the long term.

The Minister referred to people engaged in share fishing, although I am not aware of any females engaged in sea fishing.

I have a female cousin who is fishing off the Galway coast at present.

I am pleased to hear that. The Minister got around the problem of title very neatly by referring to "people engaged in fishing".

I hope the share fishermen know whom we are talking about.

I welcome the fact that the Minister is addressing the issue of gender in the social welfare legislation. As he stated, share fishermen and women do not have a job in the normal sense and the relationship between skippers of boats and members of the crew has been contentious for some time, and not merely because of the court cases that took place since 1986. I welcome the fact that the Minister is regularising the matter and ensuring that such crew members are covered for disability and unemployment benefit. Will he introduce regulations at some stage which will enable Deputies to be covered for at least unemployment benefit, because that may concern some Deputies?

What about the new severance package?

Very few unemployed TDs over the age of 45 to 50 get employment outside of politics. Many people are in similar situations to those engaged in fishing.

Such as actors and Church of Ireland ministers.

Artists are also seeking some type of cover. I attended a recent conference in the DCU dealing with that matter. A charter of rights has been drawn up for artists and the question of cover for unemployment and disability is one of the matters dealt with in that charter. Many sectors of the community do not fall into the normal employer-employee relationship. Will the Minister indicate if he is considering introducing an amendment to cover such people particularly artists?

I was somewhat taken aback by the Minister's statement that cover will not apply until 1996. That is a long time to wait for cover. The Minister indicated that there are only 2,000 people involved and I assume a number of those have some PRSI cover. Does he intend to take account of contributions already paid when assessing people's eligibility for cover, or is the 1996 deadline absolute, regardless of previous contribution records?

The Minister is also dealing with the question of social welfare fraud and I would not defend anybody who defrauds the system. People who take money out of the system in that way deprive others of income they badly need. However, the concentration of officials of the Department and others, such as the Governor of the Central Bank, on those who fraudulently receive social welfare benefits to the exclusion of those who assist them in receiving such benefits is mistaken. I am sure the Minister could give us more details in that regard, but the fact the Department discovered that 600 people on 550 building sites in Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow were claiming social welfare benefit indicates that a significant number of employers facilitate such breaches of the social welfare code.

Will the Minister indicate what action is being taken against the employers concerned? He indicated that action was being taken against the 600 employees found in breach of the social welfare code. How many employers were involved? The Minister referred to 550 building sites, but builders may own more than one site and, therefore, there may not be as many employers involved. Will the Minister inform the House also if any of the builders were engaged in public contracts? Given the large number of sites, some public contracts must have been involved. Is the Minister taking any steps to tighten up the allocation of contracts to companies found in breach of the social welfare code in that way? It is impossible to stamp out people operating in that black area if employers co-operate with them.

I acknowledge that the Minister is introducing a new form of register and initiating it specifically in relation to building contractors. Nevertheless, I would appreciate if the Minister would indicate the steps being taken to pursue the employers who faciliated those 600 people found drawing social welfare benefit in breach of the social welfare code.

In his speech the Minister said that as a result of the detection of the 600 people concerned £2.5 million has been saved by the taxpayer. I ask him to go into this matter in more detail. Does this represent a potential saving in the sense that having discovered that these people were defrauding the system it was brought to an end and that as a result an estimated £2.5 million has been saved? Is it the case that £2.5 million has been collected from the 600 people concerned or has any of the money defrauded in this way been recovered? Furthermore have any of the employers been surcharged? It is important to know how this sum of £2.5 million has been saved.

The reason I raise this question is that the Minister and I have been at loggerheads over a period of time on the question of the savings which he claims are being made in detecting fraud, abuse and unwarranted claims. Specifically, during the summer the Minister indicated that he expected £200 million to be taken in under the amnesty which was due to end either at the end of September or October. In any event the Minister indicated emphatically that £200 million would be saved as a result. In his speech today he indicated that this sum represents the savings made since 1991, not July of this year.

The latter part of 1991.

It represents the savings made since the latter half of 1991, in 1992 and 1993, not since the summer when the social welfare amnesty was announced. I disputed the fact that it would be possible to claw back £200 million under that amnesty. It is my recollection that under the earlier social welfare amnesty approximately £800,000 was clawed back from social welfare recipients while only six employers were caught or volunteered information that they were abusing the system. Therefore, on this evidence it did not appear possible to claim that £200 million would be raised within such a short time. It is important to know from where this £2.5 million comes so that the newspapers tomorrow can have real headlines about this saving, whether we have it, it is something we hope to have or simply a figment of the imagination.

It is easy for those in receipt of substantial incomes to say it is deplorable that people work in the black economy. There is no doubt that this is wrong and we have to try to reduce it as much as possible but the sad fact is that, despite the Minister's claims that significant improvements have been made for those on social welfare, all social welfare payments are below the level recommended by the Commission on Social Welfare four or five years ago. For a single person they recommended a sum of £65 at current values and suggested that with this sum one could hope to keep body and soul together but not have a high standard of living. Having regard to the fact that social welfare payments are so low, particularly for those who were earning a relatively good wage, there is an inbuilt incentive for those who have a mortgage and schoolgoing children to earn extra money on top of their social welfare payments, if the opportunity arises. As I said, they would not have such an opportunity were it not for the fact that some unscrupulous employers choose to make it available to them.

This raises the question of whether basic criteria should be applied in regard to the wages an employer may pay. It seems that a strong case could be made in favour of a minimum wage, in certain areas employers should be obliged to pay wages which do not fall below a certain level. This should be a key element in any attack on poverty traps. The Minister should, therefore, consider the possibility of introducing a minimum wage as a means of overcoming these traps. In many instances, given the wages offered by some employers and the losses that would be incurred when one takes into account differential rent, medical card and so on — it is not that people do not want to work — it is impossible for them to take a job because they and their families would be worse off.

Ar dtús ba mhaith liom fáilte mhór a chur roimh an mBille seo agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an Bille a chur os ár gcomhair sa Dáil agus leis na daoine sa Roinn a dhein sár obair chun an fhadhb mhór atá ag an hiascairí — sé sin na share fishermen — ag eírí as na cúirteanna cúpla bliain ó shin — a réiteach. Is mór an trua é áfach nach bhfuil a gcuid oibre déanta ag na doine sa bhFreasúra mar níl fhios acu cad tá siad ag caint faoi mar gheall are an rud seo. Táim ag fanacht ar an Teachta Doyle mar sílim go bhfuil níos mó eolais aici sin faoi na fadhbanna seo. Ní dúirt na daoine eile dada faoi na fadhbanna agus sílim go mbeidh níos mó le déanamh acu ar an mBille seo sa Choiste.

I wholeheartedly welcome the Bill. As a Deputy who represents a marine constituency, I am aware of the difficulties we have had to deal with and the implications of the two court cases, one in 1986 and the other in 1992. This Bill will be of help to those who have reached an impasse. Many of them are unaware of the implications of the Bill and are only now becoming aware of the problems they face as some people are only now discovering that they no longer have any entitlements.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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