Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Mar 1994

Vol. 440 No. 5

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Legal Aid.

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

8 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform in view of the commitment given in the Programme for a Partnership Government, 1993-1997, the progress that has been made with regard to placing the civil legal aid system on a statutory basis; in view of his announcement of 3 March 1994, of an expansion in the service, when he expects that each county will have a full-time or part-time law centre; the plans, if any, he has to extend the remit of the service to cover areas such as labour law, social welfare cases and personal injury cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Peter Barry

Ceist:

22 Mr. Barry asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the percentage per person spent on legal aid in this country in 1993; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Robert Molloy

Ceist:

38 Mr. Molloy asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the plans, if any, he has to expand the remit of the Legal Aid Board to those areas of law as yet excluded; the time scale for such an expansion; and if he will make statement on the matter.

Mr. Taylor

I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 22 and 38 together.

Figures relating to the cost per head of persons who avail of civil legal aid and advice from the Civil Legal Aid Board's law centres are not readily available and could be obtained only by the expenditure of a disproportionate amount of the board's time and resources. Official figures relating to the amount spent on civil legal aid and advice per person eligible for legal aid in this country are also not available.

The grant-in-aid of £5 million which I secured from the Government for the Legal Aid Board for 1994 will allow the board to open ten new full time centres and four new part time centres in 1994. On that basis the total number of full-time centres will be 26 and the total number of part-time centres will be 17 — a total of 43 centres. By the end of the year every county will have either a full or part-time law centre.

Two of the new full-time centres are being provided in Dublin — one in the city and one in Blanchardstown. Outside Dublin, new full time centres will be located in Ennis, Kilkenny, Longford, Monaghan, Nenagh, Portlaoise, Wexford and Wicklow. The existing law centre in Galway will be provided with an additional solicitor.

The four new part-time centres will be established at Carrick-on-Shannon, Cavan town, Navan and Tullamore.

Arrangements are being made by the Legal Aid Board for the leasing and equipping of premises for the new centres. The centres will be opened as quickly as possible within the next few months.

When I took over responsibility for the Legal Aid Board just over 12 months ago there were 39 solicitors and 40 support staff employed in the board's law centres. In 1993 an additional 12 solicitors and 29 support staff were allocated. A further 24 solicitors and 34 support staff will be employed this year to service the new law centres. When these additional staff are recruited the Legal Aid Board will have a total of 75 solicitors and 103 support staff. Staff numbers in the board's head office will also be augmented in 1994 to enable them to deal effectively with the additional work generated in the law centres. These increases mean that, since coming into office, the Government will have more than doubled the number of staff employed by the board.

The scheme of civil legal aid and advice covers most areas of the law including personal injury. Legal advice on labour law matters is available under the scheme at present and legal aid is available where court proceedings are concerned.

A very limited number of areas such as proceedings before labour or social welfare tribunals are not covered by the scheme. The question of extending the scheme to cover these areas is being considered in the light of the impact of the additional resources, being provided this year, on reducing waiting lists.

The legislation to put the scheme on a statutory footing is at an advanced stage of drafting and will be introduced as quickly as possible.

Ms McManus

I welcome the expansion of the scheme. Is this a once off expansion or does the Minister expect it to continue? If not, does he agree with the chairman of the Legal Aid Board who is reported as saying that the original aim of providing a nation-wide service will never be fulfilled? Does this not underline even more forcefully the need to put the Legal Aid Board on a statutory footing and to extend the scheme to other areas? The Minister says the legislation is at an advanced stage. Perhaps he would clarify what that means. There is such a thing as "Minister speak" and it is hard for Opposition Deputies to know precisely what is meant when such terms are used. People who cannot afford to get legal representation should be able to avail of the services, limited through they are, in areas which are not now covered. Does the Minister intend to include those areas in the next six months or what timescale is involved?

Mr. Taylor

Putting the scheme on a statutory basis will require a Bill, which is at an advanced stage of drafting. The service will not be altered by that legislation, but it will formalise the operation of the scheme. I hope the Bill will be published soon.

The service has increased greatly since I took office. The level of increase since then more than matches the development of the scheme since its foundation. By the end of this year there will be a law centre in every county and a large increase in the number of staff, both solicitors and support staff, is provided for. There have been substantial reductions in the waiting lists at many law centres and further improvements will be made when the new centres come into operation later in the year. The position will be reviewed from time to time. I cannot say what the budgetary position will be in 1995 or 1996, but I am anxious that the maximum possible resources are made available for the legal aid service.

In addition to law centres we have established a pilot scheme under which private practitioners participate in certain categories of family law matters in the District Court. That scheme is being reviewed to ascertain how it operated in 1993 and depending on the outcome of the review I will consider whether it should be continued or extended. The scheme plays an important role for people living in remote areas far away from a law centre, even though the centre may be located in their county.

Ms Keogh

The expansion of the legal aid system must be acknowledged and I hope the waiting time will be reduced. The waiting period for first time consultations can be up to six or seven months. As the majority of cases dealt with by the board involve family law issues and bearing in mind that a Family Law Bill is going through the Oireachtas and we anticipate divorce legislation following the referendum, will the Minister review the position again and indicate if there are sufficient resources for free legal aid? Will he comment on the newspaper report that the service is not free because of a minimum payment of £19? Can that charge be eliminated in certain circumstances?

Mr. Taylor

Even before the new law centres come into operation there have been substantial reductions in waiting lists in many centres. For example, in Castlebar and Cork North Mall the waiting time has been reduced to two months, in Cork South Mall it has been reduced to ten weeks, in Clondalkin to seven weeks, Ormond Quay to two months and Dundalk to six weeks. In Galway it has been reduced to three weeks, in Letterkenny and Limerick to two months, Sligo to one month and in other places to five or six months. When the new permanent and part-time law centres come into operation those waiting lists will be reduced further, but the volume of work may increase as time passes. It is difficult to prognosticate how the position will develop. It will be kept under review and all necessary steps will be taken. I am glad the Deputy acknowledges the substantial progress made during the past 15 months. When I took office the waiting lists in most law centres was 12 months and upwards. Substantial progress has been made since then. I have great hopes for the private practitioners' scheme which will assist in reducing waiting lists and, more importantly, provide a service for people in remote areas. I understand there is a sliding scale and, depending on the person's income, some contribution is required but that will also be kept under review.

Mr. Nealon

I am glad to hear there is only one month's waiting list in the Sligo area. When a person from an area which has a legal aid service does not wish to use the services of that office can he or she avail of the services of an office in another area?

Mr. Taylor

As far as I am aware he or she can. If it is a family law case it might be possible for such people to avail of the private practitioners scheme. Approximately 100 solicitors have agreed to serve on a panel of private practitioners and it might be possible for such people to avail of that service.