Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Jun 1994

Vol. 444 No. 3

Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Meat Plants' Hygiene Standards.

Eamon Gilmore

Ceist:

7 Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to reports that a number of Irish meat plants could face closure for breaches of EC hygiene regulations following a series of visits by Commission officials; if these reports are true; if so, the number of plants visited and the numbers found to be in breach of the regulations; the steps, if any, that are being taken to ensure that plants are brought up to EC standards; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. O'Shea

Following an inspection visit late last year by EU veterinarians serious deficiencies were reported in three Irish meat plants from a total of twelve plants inspected. Minor deficiencies were reported in the remaining plants. Details of these deficiencies have been communicated to the plants concerned and my Department is supervising the measures necessary to correct them. Of the three with serious deficiencies, one ceased operations temporarily in order to effect a full refurbishment of the plant which is almost completed, another had its operations severely restricted until remedial action was taken and is following an approved programme to correct structural deficiencies, while the third plant has remedied its operational deficiencies and has submitted a programme which has been approved by my Department for remedying its structural deficiencies.

Ms McManus

Would the Minister agree that this is quite serious, that it takes inspection by the European Commission to discover serious deficiencies in a quarter of the plants investigated and lesser deficiencies in others? Would he comment on the fact that these plants had already been approved by his Department and indicate to the House how it is that there is a discrepancy between the finding of his Department and those of the European Commission examiners and say how he intends to rectify that discrepancy?

Mr. O'Shea

There are 30 plants which slaughter for the export trade. Three categories apply in Ireland and the 12 plants here would fall into the third category. Within the general context it should be stated here that the standards of our slaughtering facilities in terms of our export trade are as high or somewhat higher than those obtaining in quite a number of other EU member states. There is a fourth category of unacceptable slaughtering facilities in member states but we do not have any in that category. The 12 plants which are the subject of this question were visited two years ago. On the second inspection it was found that nine had minor problems. Three had major problems but, as I said in my reply, those are being addressed. An effort is being made by the Commission throughout the Community to bring slaughtering facilities up to the required standard in line with the relevant directive so that, at the end of the day, they would fall into the first category. Some of the difficulties that occur, particularly in the case of the smaller plants, can occur in a structural sense; but it must be realised that structures cost money and there is also a time element involved. In three of the 12 plants in the third category, effective remedial action has been taken since the veterinary inspection carried out between 21 October and 5 November last.

Mr. Connor

Would the Minister outline to the House in as much detail as possible the procedures pursued by his Department in hygiene inspections of abattoirs that process meat for export, which is the category about which we are talking? Would he agree with me that the inspection procedures for this category of abattoirs would be much better than the category of abattoir covered by the Abattoirs Act of 1988 which dealt with abattoirs engaged in slaughtering for the domestic trade, where there is insufficient staff, whether professionals like veterinarians or health boards staff, available to implement the requirements laid down in that Act?

Mr. O'Shea

If a particular abattoir is substandard or a health hazard my Department would close it down pending remedial action. The approach adopted within the Community is to allow people time to come up to standards. The same applies within the context of the 1988 Act. Smaller abattoirs which slaughter for the small domestic market are given every opportunity to come up to standard. As the Deputy will know, if these abattoirs do not make an honest attempt to improve slaughtering standards, they are closed down. The Deputy will see that there is a continuous thrust in an attempt to raise standards. Standards in relation to slaughtering for export and for the domestic market are very high within the context of overall European Union standards, with a continuous effort being made to improve them. This will be abundantly clear from the action taken following the inspection which took place in the autumn of last year.

Ms McManus

Does the Minister agree it is a matter of concern that we have a two-tiered method of examining these slaughterhouses, in that procedures adapted for exports appear to be given priority over the domestic market? Is it not true that there was a recent examination by the European Commission of domestic market abattoirs which was also critical of the standards of the smaller scale abattoirs? Is that true or not? I am not referring to the inspection carried out two years ago but to the more recent one.

Mr. O'Shea

I am not aware of the inspection to which Deputy McManus alluded but I shall check on the points she has raised. It would be wrong to give the impression that different standards apply to different sectors. For instance, some abattoirs that slaughter for export also slaughter for the home market. However, we have a high concentration of smaller abattoirs, quite a lot in some counties, possibly killing one steer and a couple of sheep a week and operated by self-employed people. Once there is a perceived substantial movement to improve hygiene standards and so on we are tolerant. For the very reasons the Deputy elucidated, we deal severely with those who may give the impression they will take action but do not do so. I might add that such abattoirs are being closed.

Mrs. Doyle

My point is very similar to that of Deputy McManus, which is that we really cannot condone much longer a two-tier health and hygiene standard for abattoirs. I am sure domestic consumers would not like to realise that the standards required for the home market are less stringent than those applicable to the export market. Are the provisions of the Abattoirs Act, 1988 being fully implemented?

Mr. O'Shea

We need to draw a distinction between all aspects of the relevant directives in relation to export, which can relate to the size of premises and so on, so that it will be seen we are not comparing like with like. It is not correct to talk in terms of a two-tiered system. The general question of slaughtering facilities is something with which I have been concerned since assuming office in this Department. I am pursuing a number of initiatives with a view to achieving greater progress, although I would not be in a position to disclose exactly what I am talking about at this time.

I am committed to a system at all levels in the food and processing chain that gives an absolute guarantee to the consumer. To use the jargon of the expert group report which we discussed recently, it is a consumer-led industry. It is abundantly clear to everyone that the consumer is much more demanding nowadays and it is my intention to respond fully on all fronts.

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Abattoirs Act be implemented?

An Ceann Comhairle

A number of Deputies is offering. I want to bring this question to finality. We have dwelt overlong on it to the detriment of the other questions.

Mr. Leonard

Is it not true that the wrong signal could go out from here regarding the standards demanded? A high standard is demanded from the domestic and export markets. This is obvious in my own area which deals with food processing. Is it not true also that practically all the plants operating for the export market also operate, perhaps on a small scale, for the domestic market?

Mr. O'Shea

Perhaps I could refer to the original question. Eighteen plants were not considered to warrant a visit during the recent inspection. Nine of the 12 plants which were at the lower end of the scale came through that inspection two years on. Of the three plants with serious deficiencies one temporarily ceased operations. High standards apply throughout the food industry. I agree with Deputy Leonard that it would be wrong if an impression went from here that there was a hygiene problem with our product. That must be avoided.

Mr. Connor

The provisions of the 1988 Act are not being implemented.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Connor may not intervene like this.

Mr. Carey

May I ask one supplementary question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call you later. I propose to call Deputies Jim Higgins, Molloy and Carey and finally Deputy McManus. Questions from the Deputies concerned must be very brief, I insist on that.

Mr. J. Higgins

When the Minister says his Department is satisfied, I presume he is talking about departmental inspections, random inspections, the veterinary service which services the factories and the agricultural officers who represent the Department within the factories on a day to day basis. Is the Minister satisfied regarding the level of training of agricultural officers for handling specific meat products? One will recall — I do not want to allude overly to it — from the beef tribunal that one of the problems seemed to have been that the agricultural officers, in many cases, did not have specific training in day to day working with meat and meat products.

An Ceann Comhairle

I asked for brevity.

Mr. J. Higgins

What updating of training of agricultural officers takes place in his Department?

An Ceann Comhairle

Training of his officers is clearly a separate question.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is related.

Mr. O'Shea

I have every confidence in the officers of my Department to discharge the duties assigned to them. If the Deputy wishes to communicate to me in more detail about the specific issue raised I will pursue it.

Mr. Molloy

Is the Minister concerned that of the 12 factories inspected by the EU officials a quarter were found in breach of the regulations? What were his officials doing who visit these plants, and who inspect the meat from them? The new health and safety regulations and the slaughterhouse regulations place a heavy financial burden on small operators for the home market to meet these standards. Has the Minister considered granting financial assistance to enable them to achieve these standards bearing in mind that where there was farm pollution, farmers were granted assistance to clear up that problem?

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Minister clarify whether the 12 factories were abattoirs?

Mr. O'Shea

The first question asked what my officials are doing. They constantly write to the various meat plants bringing to their notice practices which could be improved. That would have happened in the two year period following the inspections carried out by the EU. At the end of the day there is a consideration throughout member states with the Commission to give people time to comply. Some people here did not use that time to comply and did so only under pressure. Obviously I cannot be satisfied with that. I am aware of the problem regarding abattoirs which slaughter for the home market and I am working towards providing assistance in that area but nothing has been finalised. Some of these abattoirs are considerable employers in their local areas, in that they buy from local producers and provide a good service. I am sympathetic to them and I am endeavouring to afford some assistance in that area.

Mr. Molloy

I am grateful for that assistance.

An Ceann Comhairle

A brief question, Deputy Carey please. There are many more questions on the Order Paper.

Mr. Carey

In regard to abattoirs in the home market has the Minister received any complaint about the conduct of his officials inspecting existing abattoirs where the owners have been given vague directions as to what the regulations require of them? Is the Minister aware that in some cases people who spent £40,000 to £50,000 developing their premises are now threatened with closure?

Mr. O'Shea

The onus is on the operator of the abattoir to provide a proposal of the works to be carried out and a timescale for their implementation. I take the view that if a particular operation is a health hazard it has no place in the Irish food chain. I have not had direct representations in relation to vague instructions. There is an onus on the person operating the abattoir to provide a costed proposal in terms of the works proposed to be carried out and the timescale for their implementation. The Department will not be draconian in that area. We have a responsibility to the consumer which must be discharged in full. On the other hand, where substantial moneys are involved for small operations, it is only fair that people are given latitude to effect improvements on an incremental basis. The time-frame cannot go on forever.

Ms McManus

Will the Minister agree it would be in the public interest to publish these findings? We have now got to the stage where that is the most effective way of ensuring standards are met. The results of the inspections of the larger meat plants should be published. In relation to the smaller abattoirs I understand the Minister is reviewing the Abattoirs Act. When does the Minister expect to have a plan for dealing with the considerable staffing problems throughout the country? The veterinary union has pointed out that meat is not being stamped in accordance with EU regulations in any country.

Mr. O'Shea

What was the Deputy's first question.

Ms McManus

Will the Minister of State publish the findings of the European Commission?

Mrs. Doyle

Transparency in Government.

Ms McManus

It would be an effective way of making sure that people live up to standards.

Mr. O'Shea

One of the companies involved shut down but it would have become known that there were problems. Given that there are jobs involved we need to strike a balance and ensure fairness. Although time was given, the opportunity was not availed of. It was only after the heavy hand was used that remedial action was taken. It is my understanding that between 35 and 38 people are employed in the company concerned. In the first instance, we have a responsibility to the consumer in terms of the quality of the product that they receive. On the other hand, there is a need to protect employment and provide outlets for producers. Perhaps we could be more draconian in ensuring there is no health hazard and that standards are acceptable in inspecting meat for human consumption. The EU directive is so wide-ranging that it would be extremely difficult for any operator to fulfil all the conditions. In publishing the findings damage could be done unfairly. While I fully support the concept of transparency——

Mr. Crawford

And ethics.

Mr. O'Shea

——we need to strike a balance and ensure fairness. In this instance, publication would not be in the best interests of the companies involved or their employees and producers. We should take comfort from the fact that progress has been made and that the position at the 12 plants which were in category 3 three years ago has changed.