Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 1997

Vol. 485 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 3a, Appropriation Bill, 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second and Remaining Stages; No. 2, Transfer of Sentenced Persons (Amendment) Bill, 1997 [Seanad], Second and Remaining Stages; No. 3, Courts (No. 2) Bill, 1997 [Seanad], Second and Remaining Stages; No. 22, statements on the European Summit shall be taken today following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the Order shall resume thereafter. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that:

(1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.;

(2) the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 3a shall be taken together today without debate and shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance;

(3) No. 2 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) the proceedings on the Second Stage, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. and the contributions shall be as follows: (a) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (b) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (c) Members may share time; and (d) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; and

(ii) the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; and

(4) No. 3 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) The proceedings on the Second Stage, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m. tonight and the contributions shall be as follows: (a) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (b) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (c) Members may share time; and (d) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; and

(ii) The proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

(5) No. 22, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after one hour and the contributions shall be as follows:

(i) the speech of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case;

(ii) the speech of the main spokesperson for the Democratic Left Party shall not exceed five minutes; and

(iii) the speech of a Minister or Minister of State shall not exceed ten minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 36 — motion re Housing Development in Carlow (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 3a agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 3 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for taking statements agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

No, Sir. This relates to statements on the EU summit. To assist the House in preparing for this debate, will the Taoiseach clarify whether the White Paper on the Amsterdam Treaty is ready? The Taoiseach said here on 4 December that it was ready but the Tánaiste said yesterday that it was not ready. This is a matter of some importance. We should know, before we make arrangements for the debate today on the EU Summit whether the Government has prepared its White Paper on the Amsterdam Treaty.

The Taoiseach

I stated on 4 December that the paper was practically ready, that there were a few small matters to be cleared up. I was advised that it would be ready by Christmas. I am aware that it was raised here yesterday. I checked this morning. The paper will be ready by Christmas.

Mr. J. Bruton

Was the Tánaiste misinformed yesterday when she said it would not be ready until February?

The Taoiseach

I understand the Tánaiste said it would be published in late January or early February.

Mr. Howlin

Did she have a meeting last week?

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach is dipping into the wrong skip.

The Taoiseach

It will be cleared by Christmas and presented in January.

Mr. J. Bruton

I do not want to press the matter, but does the Taoiseach keep the Tánaiste informed of EU developments as a matter of course?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Order of Business. Is the proposal agreed?

The Taoiseach

I take the Order of Business every day; therefore, I have to be familiar with all the detail. Deputy Bruton is questioning whether the White Paper will be published in mid or late January or early February. It will be ready by Christmas and will be published as early as possible in January.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with statements agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is not a good time to dump on the Tánaiste.

Mr. Cowen

At least she does not burn her papers like Proinsias.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Bruton

We are all aware of the horrible revelations about what may have been happening in Galway. The child pornography legislation is, therefore, a very high priority. Why is this legislation, which was promised for before Christmas, not ready and when will it be ready?

The Taoiseach

We are all aware of the allegations in some of this morning's newspapers. The Garda are carrying out an investigation and the full rigours of the law will be applied so that this matter is dealt with in the most stringent way possible. The child pornography Bill was cleared by Cabinet yesterday and it is proposed to publish it tomorrow.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach indicate the Government's attitude to a report to the effect that it is contemplating the introduction of legislation to amend the way in which it conducts referendum campaigns on foot of the interpretation by the Supreme Court of the McKenna judgment?

The Taoiseach

The Government is examining the matter to ascertain the best way of presenting the cases in a referendum to the people. The allparty committee on the Constitution has had a preliminary look at the matter, and I thank it for doing so. It seems that the best way of dealing with the matter is by way of legislation. It does not seem that it can be dealt with adequately by way of a directive or administrative means. Urgent attention is being given to the matter. I am on record as saying we hope to be able to say what we will do when we publish the White Paper in January.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is the Taoiseach aware that the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, admitted in the House yesterday that the Government has decided to slash the £20 million provision which the previous Government agreed to make——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business. It was the subject of parliamentary questions yesterday.

Proinsias De Rossa

This funding is a critical element in the battle against drugs. The Taoiseach represents a constituency which has been hit hard by the drugs problem. Will he say why this appalling decision has been made?

An Ceann Comhairle

As I said, it does not arise on the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is extremely important to point out that our £20 million commitment has been slashed to £1.2 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

It may be an important matter but the Deputy must find another way of raising it.

Proinsias De Rossa

This reduction undermines the battle against drugs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment on the matter?

The Taoiseach

I am very glad the Minister for Finance provided £10 million for the local task forces next year.

Proinsias De Rossa

That is a separate matter.

The Taoiseach

This funding is very important to the task forces and the areas to which the Deputy is referring.

Proinsias De Rossa

Yes, but it is a separate matter.

The Taoiseach

I also welcome the allocation of £1.25 million for the youth services development fund which is only commencing operation.

Mr. Yates

It is a big drop from £20 million.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Finance stated that when these funds prove their worth the matter of funding for subsequent years will be reviewed.

Proinsias De Rossa

Surely the Taoiseach is aware that that is the only development which can be made with a provision of £1.25 million. One cannot develop beyond that.

Mr. D. Ahern

The previous Government gave them nothing. The funding was a mirage.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Government reversed our decision.

Mr. D. Ahern

The promise was like a rainbow in that one could see through it.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to pursue a matter raised by Deputy Quinn on legislation to allow adequate information to be given on the Government's proposals for ratification of the Amsterdam Treaty. Is it the Government's intention to introduce legislation which will be referred to the courts for testing as to its constitutionality before coming into effect and, if so, will the programme of preparation for the legislation allow sufficient time for this process to be gone through before the referendum campaign starts?

The Taoiseach

This matter is under consideration in the context of the overall issue. If the legislation is referred to the courts this will have implications for the referendum as the 60 day rule will apply. It is unlikely that a decision will be given sooner than 60 days, which will put back the referendum. This may not be that bad as we can still deal with it.

We are working through the proposals and the legislation is at an early stage of preparation. I have asked for the matter to be treated urgently. I am aware from our preliminary meetings that for the referendum to be successful we must have legislation. Deputy Bruton is familiar with the matter and has made some useful suggestions. He is aware that it is essential we do this as otherwise we will not be able to adequately sell to the public or properly explain an extremely important treaty in terms of the future of Europe. We must address this issue before we finalise the matter. However, this will not delay the publication of the White Paper.

Mr. Gormley

Will the legislation provide equal funding for the "yes" and "no" sides in keeping with the spirit of the McKenna judgment?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of legislation on the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

If the Government is to provide proper information——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on the matter.

The Taoiseach

It has to be balanced.

Mr. Connaughton

Will the Taoiseach provide time for a debate on the swingeing cuts in headage payments for farmers next year?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Connaughton

Will the Taoiseach provide time for such a debate?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. He can raise the matter at Question Time.

The Taoiseach

The sum of £124 million given this year is an all time record for headage payments.

Mr. Connaughton

It is what they——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Howlin

On the local government Act and the consequent statutory instrument of 1993 dealing with regional authorities, will the Taoiseach say if the regulations outlined in the statutory instrument will be complied with on the appointment of the new members to the committees of the regions which will decided imminently by the Government?

The Taoiseach

If regulations have to be complied with that will be done. I will discuss the matter with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and let the Deputy know the position.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): On the Government's legislative programme, when the Taoiseach left the Tánaiste in charge of the corner shop she threw the dates into total confusion. She has much on her mind with early spring cleaning and elbowing the Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): On numerous occasions the Taoiseach said that the referendum on the Amsterdam Treaty would be held in March. Given that the Tánaiste indicated it might be held in April, will the Taoiseach confirm the date? On legislation governing local elections — the postponement of those elections is an attack on local democracy — will the Taoiseach say when the amendments to that legislation will be introduced?

The Taoiseach

The Tánaiste answered both those questions yesterday. Subject to what I told Deputy Bruton about referring the Bill to the courts, the referendum will be held in March. The local government funding Bill will be published in early January.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Government must bring forward amendments to the legislation to provide for the local government elections next June. When does the Taoiseach intend to bring forward amending legislation in that regard?

The Taoiseach

The issue of local government elections is included in the local government funding Bill which will be published in early January.

Mr. Currie

In view of today's news, the obvious continuing necessity for greater protection for children at risk and the fact that the Government reneged on its commitment to introduce mandatory reporting, when will an announcement be made on an ombudsman for children?

The Taoiseach

The commitment in the programme for Government will be met.

Mr. Currie

When?

The Taoiseach

In due course.

Mr. Currie

The proposal should have been implemented before now.

The Taoiseach

The proposal, which is well thought out, will be implemented in due course.

Mr. Currie

Will the Taoiseach confirm it is a commitment of Government?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. Currie

The Taoiseach should inform the Minister for Health and Children of that because he is not aware of it.

Mr. McDowell

I wish to pursue a question which I raised yesterday on the Finance Bill. Does the Minister for Finance intend to follow the procedure established in recent years to publish an advance statement of the primary provisions of the Finance Bill to allow discussion before the Bill is published? When does the Taoiseach expect the consultants' report on the housing market will be published? Will he provide Dáil time for debate on the matter?

The Taoiseach

The answer to the first question is yes. The second question is one for the Minister to answer.

Proinsias De Rossa

On promised legislation on abortion, the Tánaiste indicated yesterday that she has discovered some obscure method of referring the matter to the people other than by way of referendum. Will the Taoiseach indicate the Government's intention in this regard? When is it expected the promised Green Paper will be published?

The Taoiseach

The Tánaiste outlined the position yesterday. Work has started on the Green Paper and it is hoped it will be completed in 1998. The matter will then be discussed with the allparty committee on the Constitution and I hope everybody takes the opportunity to put forward their views on the Green Paper.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Tánaiste indicated yesterday that the mechanism referred to earlier by the Minister, Deputy Cowen, relating to section 27 of the Constitution will not necessarily be the mechanism used. Will the Taoiseach indicate what mechanism it is proposed to use to refer the matter to the people?

The Taoiseach

We have started a process which will be followed through. As the Tánaiste said, section 27 of the Constitution may not necessarily be used. The important issue at present is the Green Paper and we will deal with other matters as they arise.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must not debate the issue on the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

The information given by the Government is nonsense, it is a way of avoiding the issue. We were told by the Minister, Deputy Cowen — this was confirmed by the Taoiseach on previous occasions — that it is intended to produce a Green Paper, to introduce legislation and have it passed by the House and to refer the matter to the people under section 27 of the Constitution. We are now told, however, that section 27 may not be used.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is completely out of order in pursuing the matter in this manner on the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

What section of the Constitution will be used?

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy will put down a parliamentary question on the issue.

Proinsias De Rossa

I have no opportunity to do so.