Vol. 487 No. 3
1 Mr. Allen asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the recent National Economic and Social Forum report which said that dramatic increases in wealth creation in our economy should not distract attention from our continuing problems of unemployment, poverty and social exclusion. [1188/98]
The Government outlined in its press statement at the time of the publication of the recent NESF report that it welcomed the various recommendations of the forum and appreciated the important contribution it has made through its wide-ranging reports and opinions, as evidenced by its work over the past four years.
The Government is conscious of the importance of addressing the continuing problems as outlined by the Deputy. A number of measures are in place to do so, as outlined in the Government's An Action Programme for the Millennium, Partnership 2000 and the National Anti-Poverty Strategy. These are monitored on an ongoing basis and the various social partners are involved in the process. The Government has also taken specific measures to ensure programmes and resources are targeted directly at areas of disadvantage to combat the problems of unemployment, poverty and social exclusion. I refer in particular to the decision to establish a Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion, which I am chairing, and the new co-ordinated approach to supporting young people at risk in disadvantaged areas, which I announced on 21 January.
It is important to note the NESF also commented in its recent report that it remains "satisfied and encouraged with responses received and the actions taken by successive Governments on its recommendations".
Would the Taoiseach agree that as part of the process of globalisation the gap between the top decile of incomes and the bottom decile of incomes has widened?
People who find themselves either in disadvantaged communities or in disadvantaged circumstances continue to have ongoing difficulties. However, on a global basis, particularly in the context of western countries and the various initiatives under the EU, we are ahead in some ways. Through education, through programmes like Youthreach, the antipoverty programmes, the drugs task force, Breaking the Cycle, the lowering of the pupil-teacher ratio etc., we have begun tackling the problems. It is an area where we can never do enough, but there has been a genuine attempt for some years to try to assist those communities.
Have the Minister for Finance or the Taoiseach consulted with the members of the National Economic and Social Forum about the proposed changes in the taxation of credit union members' dividends and deposits?
That matter does not arise on this question.
The Minister for Finance has had a number of meetings with the League of Credit Unions and matters of some contention have been resolved.
Does the Taoiseach propose to carry out an audit of the recent budget, measuring it against the targets outlined in the national anti-poverty strategy which aimed to reduce the levels of absolute poverty in society over a period of years? Would he agree that one way of ensuring that those targets are reached is to ensure that when we make decisions on taxation and social welfare, health and housing, the targets set out in the national anti-poverty strategy are borne in mind?
I am conscious of the need to bear them in mind, whether by way of audit or otherwise. They represent a co-ordinated response to the problems, and it is important that all Departments, not just any one Department, should take account of them. The national anti-poverty strategy is a concerted effort to co-ordinate the tackling of the problems, and there is relevant action in all Departments, particularly in relation to education, poverty and disadvantage. Those are actions I totally concur with.
Does the Taoiseach and his Department not collect information on income distribution? Is it not the case that the gap between the 10 per cent on the highest incomes and the 10 per cent on the lowest incomes in our society is widening, and that can be statistically shown to be so?
The Central Statistics Office gathers this information which is regularly reported to the House. As economies prosper there are always disparities between a proportion of those earning higher incomes and those on welfare. There has been additional expenditure to assist the less well off as economic advancement has taken place. Such additional spending cannot take place when there is no economic growth. It is proper that the resources of those doing better are used to help the less well off.
Members on all sides understand that point. However, I am asking the Taoiseach about information held in his Department. Those at the top of the income scale are receiving global salaries and are benefiting from reductions in capital gains tax and special tax breaks. Is it not the case that the gap between them and the people at the bottom is getting statistically and measurably wider?
That process will continue as a result of the Finance Bill.
It is important that the Taoiseach knows the facts. He may not have expected to be asked this question so I will not press it any further. However, will the Taoiseach obtain the facts on income distribution and let me know that what I am saying is correct — the gap is widening?
Deputy Bruton can obtain any CSO information he wishes. I have answered the question. It is clear that those at the top of the economy are moving ahead. The Minister for Finance has used the Finance Bill to tighten up on capital allowances which have been used for a number of years by those on high incomes to shelter from taxation.
I would like to know that the Taoiseach is aware of the facts.
I have seen the latest statistics.
I will accept a brief supplementary question from Deputy De Rossa. The House will have ample opportunity to discuss these matters later today.
The Taoiseach will not be in the House to discuss these matters. He is ultimately responsible as he is in charge of the Cabinet sub-committee dealing with social exclusion and drugs.
The Deputy should put his question.
Does the Taoiseach propose to audit the budget in terms of its achieving the targets set out in the national anti-poverty strategy which aims to reduce absolute poverty over a period of years? This task needs to be undertaken if we are serious about implementing these targets. Does the Taoiseach agree that it is insufficient to allocate additional resources to assist the least well off when the economy is going well? We have to allocate resources to break the cycle of disadvantage which can be traced from generation to generation. If the economy goes into a downturn, those who are helped by a little extra expenditure will be even worse off unless the cycle of disadvantage is broken.
The national anti-poverty strategy will be monitored against economic progress. As far as the second question is concerned, of course it is not just a matter of resources. We must ensure that those resources are used properly. A great deal has been done in the 1990s to assist areas suffering from long-term disadvantage. There have been improvements to the local environment and housing. There have also been improvements in education such as Breaking the Cycle, lowering of pupil-teacher ratios and assisting community activity. All of these initiatives are assisting and this is why long-term unemployment has fallen dramatically in recent years as a result of favourable economic conditions. As long as there are problems of disadvantage and areas of social exclusion it will be necessary to continue this. In reply to Deputy Bruton I made the point that switching resources from taxes collected towards areas of welfare and community grants is something that should continue. We are not doing too badly in this area.
The Taoiseach still has not answered the question. He did not audit the budget ——
The Deputy must resume his seat. Question No. 2.
——in terms of the targets set in the anti-poverty strategy.
