It is proposed to take No. 22, Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands (Powers and Functions) Bill, 1997, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 23, Referendum Bill, 1998, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 24, Central Bank Bill, 1997, Second Stage, resumed. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Report and Final Stages of No. 22 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. Report and Final Stages of No. 23 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal for dealing with No. 22 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 23 agreed? Agreed.
Will the Taoiseach clarify the Government's position with regard to the investi gation into abuses in the swimming world, given newspaper reports that many of the victims will not co-operate with the investigation? Will he also clarify the position regarding the exchange of letters that seems to have caused great difficulty to many of the victims? It is important that we know the procedure that will be adopted if the existing investigation collapses.
In light of the confusion and the stated intention of some victims of sexual abuse in swimming not to co-operate with the nonstatutory inquiry proposed by the Government, will the Taoiseach consider holding an inquiry under the relevant statute to ensure full co-operation and compellability and that all relevant papers will be available?
I welcome the opportunity to clarify the issue. Last week I discussed this matter with Mr. Coleman and one of the victims and they asked me if the Government would consider certain issues to see if they could co-operate with the private investigation. They subsequently said that they wished to have six questions considered. I told them to continue their negotiations with the Attorney General. They sent a letter to the Attorney General which was discussed in detail at the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday last. Mr. Coleman asked that a reply be issued by 5.30 p.m. yesterday. I do not like people forcing the Government to reply to letters by a certain time — it does its best to reply speedily. Since other events arose yesterday, it was 6.30 p.m. when the reply was issued. I apologise to Mr. Coleman and others for the one hour delay. I hope everybody will co-operate with this investigation. The Government is determined to assist fully in dealing with these issues. We want to be as helpful as possible to the victims and to ensure justice is done in this case.
In reply to Deputy Howlin's question, Mr. Coleman made it clear he was not interested in an investigation by a Dáil committee, where there would be compellability.
That was not my question. I asked about a statutory inquiry.
The Deputy's party leader suggested last week that the matter could be dealt with by a Dáil committee, but Mr. Coleman was not interested in that. Four of the issues were fully cleared yesterday and one or two issues will be fully cleared today. That does not seem an unreasonable time for the Government to deal with the matter. I hope a one hour delay will not force people away from what seems to be a reasonable system of dealing with these issues. As reported in this morning's newspapers, I said that if at the end of the day these matters are not dealt with satisfactorily the Government will have to reflect on that. This is an entirely reasonable and sympathetic way of dealing with a number of the victims of sexual abuse in swimming and the Government intends to proceed along those lines.
I realise we must consider the letter and the time of its arrival but it is not helpful for the Taoiseach to enter into a dispute with the solicitor representing the victims in this case. Our main interest is to ensure the victims' stories are heard and that they feel confident in any inquiry established. Can the Taoiseach clarify exactly what other measures he will consider if agreement is not reached on the existing inquiry? Will he consider setting up a statutory judicial inquiry if he finds he cannot secure agreement on the two outstanding issues?
I do not want to enter into any arguments but the Deputy asked me about newspaper reports published this morning. The only news in those reports is that a reply to the letter had not been received. I explained to the Deputy that, because of other events occurring yesterday, the Office of the Attorney General and other officials had other matters with which to deal and were an hour late responding to the letter. I apologise for that and hope it did not upset people too much. I do not think it should have.
The Government is concerned with dealing with the victims of sexual abuse in swimming. That is why the Minister said, in the first instance, that he would do all he could to be helpful by setting up the private inquiry. The Government merely wants to assist the victims. The Government is not directly involved in the issue but has sought to be of assistance in appointing Mr. Roderick Murphy, Senior Counsel, who has some knowledge of these matters and others who were prepared with reasonable legal costs, to try to uncover the events which occurred and to satisfactorily and adequately deal with them. These were horrific events and there is obviously a great deal of hurt and bitterness surrounding them. Matters must be resolved and the Government wishes to do everything it can to assist. I urge those involved to assist Mr. Roderick Murphy to the fullest extent. I hope he will able to deal with these matters and we will not have to proceed any further.
The Taoiseach, like everyone else in this House, has put the vulnerability and hurt of the victims in this case to the fore. That being the case, surely their concerns must be heard. It seems clear now that whatever the merits of the private inquiry suggested by the Government last week, it will not get at the full truth or receive the full co-operation of the people involved. The Government should not prolong people's agony and create a public dispute between the Government and people who have been grievously hurt. Will the Government move to resolve the problem within a matter of hours and decide that if people will not co-operate with the private inquiry, which appears to be a non-starter, it will institute a proper judicial inquiry and ensure this matter is resolved speedily so that the truth can be discovered?
The Taoiseach presumably accepts that the Minister's proposal looks like it will run into the sand. The extended discussions on this matter and the delays involved are causing great distress to the families concerned. The Taoiseach says the Government is willing to do everything possible to be of assistance. Does he consider it would be appropriate to examine new legislation? That could be done relatively speedily and could create a framework which would be acceptable, fair and sensitive to the needs of the families as well as being capable of reaching the truth which is something the Government seems unable to present as an option to these families.
I do not accept for one minute that any of the initiatives taken by the Government are running into the sand. The Murphy private inquiry will proceed and many victims and their legal teams are co-operating with it. In recent days, more victims have pledged their co-operation. I urge Mr. Coleman and the people he represents to co-operate too. Mr. Coleman should carefully consider the six questions he asked the Government and the Attorney General to consider. As I said last week in reply to a question from Deputy McManus, the Government must reflect on these issues given the number of child sexual abuse cases which have surfaced and are pending. However, in relation to this issue, the Government is trying to provide a mechanism, through the appointment of Mr. Roderick Murphy, for something with which it is not even directly involved.
I take this opportunity to thank the victims, their families, the legal teams and other representatives who are fully co-operating with Mr. Murphy and recognise the benefit of what he is doing. I hope Mr. Coleman will see that benefit today also.
That concludes questions on that subject.
I thank the Taoiseach and the Government for agreeing to hold a debate next week on the threatened war against Iraq. I also welcome the new wording for the Amsterdam Treaty ratification. The consultation which has taken place has clearly resulted in an improved wording. In that context, when does the Taoiseach expect the Bill to be brought before the House and when does he expect the referendum to take place?
I thank the Deputy for his remarks and I thank the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and Democratic Left for their co-operation in this matter. I appreciate the time people took and I believe we have achieved a wording about which we can feel confident. I thank the party leaders and spokespersons who engaged in discussions on the matter.
The timing of the introduction of the Bill is a matter for the Whips but it will have to have passed through the House at least 30 days before the date of the referendum. During the discussions on the wording, a number of people stated that May might be an appropriate time to hold a referendum. That is likely although the Government has not yet made a final decision. With Easter falling in the middle of April, the House will adjourn for the usual fortnight and that would give us all an opportunity to participate in a campaign for a May referendum. That seems to be the view of most parties. I understand, from the Whip, that with the agreement of the other Whips, we could take the Bill in the House the week after next.
When is it proposed to publish the School Attendance (Amendment) Bill in light of a report in an evening newspaper yesterday that 16 people under the age of 16 years are sleeping rough in Dublin?
Is the Taoiseach aware that yesterday he stated that all colleges would be closed for the by-elections to be held on Wednesday, 11 March. In fact, only one college will be closed. The decision to hold the by-elections on a Wednesday was an incorrect one and was taken merely because Ministers would not be available for weekend voting.
The Deputy must put a question to the Taoiseach, he may not proceed with a statement.
As I stated last week, the School Attendance (Amendment) Bill will be published later this year. The Deputy should note that, in respect of school drop-outs, the Minister for Education and Science made a comprehensive statement on the matter and outlined a number of excellent initiatives.
When will the voting take place in the by-elections?
Polling day will be 11 March.
In the programme for Government, the Government promised to extend the ban on bituminous coal to major urban areas. Does the Taoiseach consider Limerick East to be a major urban area and when will he fulfil his promise to the people of Limerick?
That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
It is in the programme for Government. The Taoiseach should answer my question.
Ring Willie.
Is the Taoiseach aware that since last Friday the daily air service between Donegal Airport and Dublin has been suspended because a company has gone into liquidation? There is no service available——
The Deputy must raise that matter in another way. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Will steps be taken to reinstate the service?
Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur faoi dhá phíosa reachtaíochta a bhaineann le cúrsaí Gaeltachta, an chéad cheann, an Bille faoi cúrsaí tithíochta (leasú) agus tá tagairt déanta dó ar liosta B. Is í mo cheist ná cathain a fhoilseofar an Bille sin? Baineann an tarna ceist le reachtaíocht a bhí geallta, sé sin na limistéir Ghaeltachta faoi Acht 1956 a athrú.
Baineann an chéad cheist le tithíocht a chur ar bhonn ceart, tithe a tógadh ó 1982 ar aghaidh agus bhí sé iontuigthe go mbeadh píosa reachtaíochta gearr againn chun an rud a chur ar fhoirm cheart.
Beidh an Bille réidh ag deireadh na bliana.
Gabh mo leithscéal?
Ní raibh an Teachta ag éisteacht. Beidh an Bille réidh ag deireadh na bliana.
Tá sé deacair.
Beidh an Bille réidh ag deireadh na bliana.
An chéad cheann?
An Bille faoi thithe Gaeltachta.
The second one dealt with changing the boundaries of the Gaeltacht under the 1956 Act. The Minister of State said that when the methodology was completed for carrying out a survey on how it should be done, the legislation would be introduced.
Ní dhúirt mé a leithéid de rud. Dúirt mé gur cáilíocht Aire atá i gceist.
An Taoiseach nua.
The real Taoiseach is speaking.
This is what one might call a blast from the past. The reality is he can transmit the answer in any language because he will do nothing about it. That is also consistent with history.
Titim go trom.
I am reluctant to interrupt this exchange. Given the low morale and serious personnel shortages in the Defence Forces, particularly in the Naval Service and the Air Corps, and the Minister's stated intention to recruit outside the State, when will the new Defence Forces legislation be brought before the House? It was promised for the first term. When will the Price Waterhouse report on the Air Corps and the Naval Service be published and discussed in the House?
I am glad to confirm that, following my many contacts with the Defence Forces and the Naval Service, morale is extremely high. The Defence (Amendment) Bill will be ready before the summer.
What about the three ships promised?
See what he is saying about Deputy Coveney.
Given the reports on the projected inflation rate for this year of 5 per cent and a report which shows that house prices in the north Dublin area have risen by 25 per cent since the start of this year, does the Taoiseach intend to take legislative or other measures to deal with this?
Was that a Labour Party survey for the by-election?
That matter can be discussed under the Finance Bill.
I received a reply to a parliamentary question with regard to the Green Paper on abortion and it gives the impression that the Cabinet sub-committee on abortion has not met. That must be a mistake. Can the Taoiseach clarify this?
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
I am asking the Taoiseach to clarify how frequently the sub-committee meets.
The Order of Business is not the time to clarify matters except with regard to——
It would be wrong to give the impression the sub-committee has never met.
——the timing of proposed legislation.
Will the Taoiseach indicate how often the sub-committee has met?
The Deputy should put down a parliamentary question on the matter. The number of times the sub-committee met is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
With regard to the Moriarty tribunal of inquiry established by the House, it is reported today that the Governor of the Central Bank said it is impossible to give full information to the tribunal——
That is a matter of detail.
The terms of reference of that tribunal were debated in this House.
They cannot be debated again.
However, they might require amendment. I wish to know the attitude of the Government to the reported statement by the Governor of the Central Bank that it is impossible for him to give full information to the tribunal. What is the Government's view?
I was informed last evening that the Governor of the Central Bank submitted a report to the committee of the House. His views are before that committee and if any difficulties arise, the Government will consider them. The report he submitted is an assessment based on his view of EU law. Members of the committee heard his view yesterday.