Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1998

Vol. 496 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 23 — Western Development Commission Bill, 1998, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 24 — Statements on the Situation in Nicaragua/Honduras; No. 25 — Tourist Traffic Bill, 1998, Second Stage (resumed): No. 26 — Irish Sports Council Bill, 1998, Second Stage (resumed); and No. 2 — Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1998 [Seanad], Second Stage.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the proceedings on No. 24, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 75 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of the main spokespersons for the Democratic Left Party and the Green Party shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; and (2) any division demanded today on the Second Stage of Nos. 25, 26 or 2 shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 17 November 1998.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 24 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the postponement of divisions today agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could we have a debate on the Health Estimate for this year, in light of the fact which has emerged that wards are being closed while there is £32 million of unspent money in the hands of the Minister for Health?

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter was already brought up and is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is in order for me to ask the Taoiseach to allow a token Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Health to be debated in the House, so that we can debate the level of competence displayed by the Minister in allowing wards to be closed while he had £32 million of unspent money——

An Ceann Comhairle

We will not have a debate on this issue now. It was raised on many occasions, including on the Adjournment.

Mrs. Owen

What will happen to the £32 million?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will ask the Taoiseach to make a brief comment.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am merely asking the Taoiseach to allow a debate later on this management failure in the health service, which involves waiting lists being increased and wards being closed while the Minister has money in hand.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not expand the question any further.

The Taoiseach

If there are Estimates due they will be fully debated.

Mr. J. Bruton

Does the Taoiseach realise the problem there is in the health services——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the health services on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

——or is he as surprised about it as he was about his famous predecessor?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled that we will not discuss the health services on the Order of Business. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am seated. Will the Minister offer an explanation of why this £32 million——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have asked the Deputy to resume his seat. We will not have a debate or any discussion on the Estimates on the Order of Business. I have facilitated various Deputies in raising this matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Allen

People on waiting lists deserve to know what is happening.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled that it is not in order on the Order of Business. I ask Deputies to abide by the rules of the House. If Deputies wish to change the rules of the House they have a right to do so but they cannot do it here.

Mr. Allen

People want to know about the £32 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen should desist.

Mr. J. Bruton

What explanation does the Taoiseach have for people who are waiting?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to have explanations on the Order of Business. Deputy Bruton should resume his seat. This matter is not in order. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

A little disorder might get results for people on waiting lists. We are entitled to an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not encourage disorder. I call Deputy Quinn.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am the last Member who would wish to be disorderly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Well the Deputy is being disorderly. The Deputy should not be on his feet when the Chair is on his feet.

Mr. J. Bruton

I will sit down when I get an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled that this matter is not in order on the Order of Business. I ask the Deputy to accept that ruling.

Mr. J. Bruton

I had not finished my first question before you were on your feet.

Mr. Belton

The disorder is in the health services.

Mr. Quinn

I fully accept that a debate on the Estimates is totally out of order on the Order of Business. However, it is in order for the Opposition parties, who came together last night in a unique show of unity on an issue of importance, to ask the Taoiseach if he intends to make time available to debate an Estimate on Health between now and the end of the session.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has given his answer to that question.

Mr. Quinn

No, perhaps with all the interruptions——

Mr. J. Bruton

He has not.

Mrs. Owen

They could have given the answer last night but they did not do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputies are aware, a debate has been promised on the Book of Estimates.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach has long answers for the questions he wants to answer but nothing for those he does not want to answer.

Mr. Quinn

The Opposition is trying in an orderly manner to make a specific request for a debate on the Health Supplementary Estimate.

The Taoiseach did not reply explicitly to that question. He said if Supplementary Estimates are required, then they will be introduced. That reply did not address the question posed which was "will the Taoiseach make explicit time to debate a Supplementary Estimate on the question of the Health Vote?" That requires a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Mr. J. Bruton

That was the question I asked. Is it in order now?

The Taoiseach

If there is a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Health and Children, we could make arrangements for a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

A general debate has been promised.

Mrs. Owen

Why did the Taoiseach not reply to Deputy Bruton's question?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are rules. I made it clear that I will not allow a discussion and a debate on these questions now.

Mr. J. Bruton

I do not want a debate.

Mrs. Owen

We want fair play.

An Ceann Comhairle

A general debate will take place on the Estimates.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach allow a token Supplementary Estimate of, say, £10 to allow a debate on why the Minister for Health and Children could not spend £32 million on the health services when wards are being closed?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement.

Mr. J. Bruton

A Supplementary Estimate is not required for financial but for political and social reasons to enable us have a debate on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Mr. J. Bruton

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are trying to decide on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach answer my question? The Chair allowed Deputy Quinn to ask a question and I am entitled to ask a further question now.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was proceeding to discuss and debate the issue and I could not allow that.

Mr. J. Bruton

I was not. I have no wish to debate the substance of the issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach answer my question?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I will suspend the sitting in view of the fact that Members are not obeying the Chair. I have no option but to suspend the sitting for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 10.50 a.m.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach allow a token Supplementary Estimate not for financial reasons but to allow a debate on the fact that the Minister has £32 million in unspent health levies that are available this year and could have been used to avert ward closures? Those funds have not been used and we want an explanation why they have not been used?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has promised a general debate on the Book of Estimates.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach wants to reply.

Mr. Quinn

That is in regard to the Estimates for next year. We want to debate the Estimates for this year in respect of money that has not been spent. This is an entirely different point.

Proinsias De Rossa

Does the Taoiseach not accept it is a disgrace that there are ward closures and lengthening waiting lists while money is returned by the Department of Health and Children to the Department of Finance?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are on the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

I support the leader of the Fine Gael Party in asking that a Supplementary Estimate be introduced to debate why the Department of Health and Children is so mismanaged by the Minister.

Mr. Davern

He wants to keep his options open.

Mr. Quinn

Keep the wards open. The Deputy should not be so smart.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies have asked questions. Will they have the courtesy to hear what the Taoiseach has to say?

The Taoiseach

I have been asked two different questions. I am not aware of a Supplementary Estimate to be taken before the end of the year, so it will not be presented to the House for debate. Deputy Bruton asked me to introduce a token Estimate. I have no reason to do this. The health issue has been discussed here on a number of occasions during Private Members' Business and the 1999 Estimates will be discussed the week after next. The Minister for Health and Children is managing whatever resources are available.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister for Finance will take them back.

The Taoiseach

I remind the House that all the health boards, voluntary hospitals and health agencies were made aware at the beginning of this year that when their deficits were cleared——

Mr. Noonan

That is a separate point.

The Taoiseach

I want to make this point. I know why the Deputy does not want me to make it.

Mrs. O'Rourke

It was the Deputy's responsibility when he was Minister.

The Taoiseach

This year it was made clear that there would not be Supplementary Estimates and that the health boards would manage within their resources.

Mr. Kenny

Some of the patients may not manage.

The Taoiseach

All the accumulated deficits over the years were cleared so that provision could be made. The Minister is managing the resources. There are six weeks to go to the end of the year and he will manage them until then. The Estimate for the Department of Health and Children has increased by 35 per cent in a period of six years. The Estimate for this year was substantially increased, as it will be for next year.

Mr. J. Bruton

The waiting lists are going up even faster.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already said we cannot have a debate or a discussion on this. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Minister will not spend the money to avert ward closures.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on the Order of Business?

Mr. J. Bruton

There is a need for an explanation as to why the Minister, who has £32 million of money taken from PAYE workers for the health service, will do nothing to avert ward closures.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now repeating himself. He should resume his seat. I call Deputy Quinn.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why are the waiting lists not being reduced?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. I have been a long time in this House and I never saw a Deputy disregard the Chair in the manner you have done.

Mr. J. Bruton

There was never a better reason to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is never a reason to disregard the Chair.

Mr. Quinn

The Opposition is trying to be orderly and you, Sir, must administer the rules. We respect your role in that regard. However, there is a serious crisis that can be resolved by a parliamentary response and it is our responsibility as Opposition Deputies, to ensure that is done. Will the Taoiseach make time available to debate a Supplementary Estimate for the under spending——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has responded to that request.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach said he was not aware that a Supplementary Estimate may be necessary. We are putting the case to him for parliamentary time for a Supplementary Estimate debate. It is a mandatory requirement because of the crisis that has been referred to.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. We are going into repetition on this question. We are on the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach say either yes or no to our request, otherwise the normal kind of co-operation by Opposition parties in the House will have to be reconsidered against the backdrop of his response?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach explain why, if the Minister cannot spend the health levy on keeping wards open there is such a levy?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a discussion on this matter on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

I have a question for the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope it is in order.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is Sir. Why is there a health levy if the Minister cannot use it to keep wards open?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should use another means to raise that question in the House. I call Deputy McCormack on a new subject.

Mr. McCormack

What is the Taoiseach keeping this £32 million for when hospital beds are closing in County Galway?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business. I facilitated the Deputy previously in granting an Adjournment debate on that matter. He should resume his seat.

Mrs. Owen

He is fighting for his people.

Mr. J. Bruton

How would the Taoiseach explain the position to people in the Mater Hospital?

Mr. McCormack

He was elected by the patients there. Now he is turning his back on them.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not resume his seat I will ask him to leave the House.

Ms McManus

Recently in the House I raised the fact that people were dying because of the hospital waiting lists. The Taoiseach responded to me by saying that was emotive. Does he accept that there is a crisis?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has a question that is in order will she please put it?

Ms McManus

Last week a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was rushed through the House without any preparation or warning. Does the Taoiseach not accept that there is already a precedent for doing what we are requesting him to do, to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Health and Children? Despite the instruction to the health boards they would welcome the Taoiseach doing the right thing by introducing a Supplementary Estimate to deal with this crisis. People are losing their lives.

Mr. Flanagan

How much of the £32 million will be spent on Tullamore General Hospital, where elective surgery has been cancelled from early next month until early in the new year?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am now ruling that we are moving to the next business. I call No. 23, Western Development Commission Bill, 1998, Order for Report Stage.

Mr. Quinn

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on Deputies to resume their seats.

Mr. Quinn

We are leaving the Chamber.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

There cannot be a point of order, the Chair is still standing.

Mr. Allen

I am seated.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy's point of order?

Mr. Allen

I had a point to raise, and I allowed the discussion on the health issue to continue. There are other issues that need to be raised here this morning, but the health issue should be finalised.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are now 30 minutes on the Order of Business.

Mr. Allen

I want to know——

An Ceann Comhairle

We have moved on now.

We are on No. 23.

Mr. J. Bruton

In the interests of this House——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

In view of the continuing obstruction I suspend the sitting for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.01 a.m. and resumed at 11.06 a.m.

Deputy J. Bruton rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have not called the Deputy. He should resume his seat. We have moved on to No. 23.

Mr. McCormack

Are we going to let patients die in the hospital?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is on his feet. Will the Deputy resume his seat. I am in the hands of the House. If the House wishes the Taoiseach to make a brief comment I will call on him first.

Mr. McCormack

On a point of order, how many speakers is the Chair going to call on?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a debate. It is brief statements from each of the party leaders. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. McCormack

Where is the Minister of State?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. He is disobeying the Chair. He should leave the House.

Mrs. Owen

That is the way the patients are being thrown out too.

Mr. McCormack

Is there any consideration for the patients in Galway?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat and allow the proceedings to continue?

Mr. McCormack

Am I not entitled to speak on this matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to speak because this is not a debate. To facilitate the House I have indicated what the position is. The Deputy was allowed to speak.

Mr. McCormack

This concerns the health of patients in my constituency.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mrs. Owen

They are being thrown out of the hospitals. There are no operations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy going to leave the House? I propose then that he be suspended from the House.

Mrs. Owen

For acting on behalf of his constituents.