Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Feb 2000

Vol. 514 No. 1

Sports Campus Ireland: Motion.

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann supports the Government's decision to proceed with planning for the development of Sports Campus Ireland and Stadium Ireland, having noted the contents of the PricewaterhouseCoopers feasibility study A Stadium for the New Millennium.

The recent announcement by the Taoiseach of the Government's decision to proceed with the building of a national stadium as part of a campus of sporting excellence – to be known as Sports Campus Ireland – represents a major milestone for sport in Ireland. The centrepiece of the campus will be an 80,000 seater national stadium capable of accommodating all field sports.

The Government is determined that our country will have a world class facility providing the highest quality of services, right up to the best international levels for a wide variety of sports. I want the House to know that the decision to proceed with this project was taken neither lightly nor, as has been suggested in some media circles, at the whim of any Member of the Government. The Government, in coming to its decision, had the benefit of recommendations made to it by an expert steering group established specifically to consider how such a stadium might be provided.

The steering group which comprised experienced business, sporting and public service figures was assisted in its deliberations by an independent feasibility study carried out by PricewaterhouseCoopers, a world renowned company which, in turn, had the expertise of a range of other consultants available to it in the preparation of the study.

I would like Members to note specifically that, in the preparation of their report, the consultants carried out an extensive consultative process involving the IRFU, the GAA, the FAI, the Athletics Association of Ireland, formerly BLE, and the NACA; stadium management companies of similar facilities in the UK, France, Germany, Portugal, Australia and the US; 28 of the non-stadium based national governing bodies of sport; the main concert promoters and exhibition management companies in Ireland and the UK; the management of alternative entertainment and exhibition facilities in Ireland and the UK and the top 100 companies in Ireland. The IRFU, GAA, FAI and the athletics association were also represented on the steering group. This was by far the most extensive consultative process and the most in-depth analytical study ever carried out in Ireland in relation to a sports project and the outcome of these deliberations provides a sound foundation on which to proceed.

The construction of the campus and stadium will involve capital expenditure of £281 million. Included in the overall investment is a gift of £50 million provided by the businessman, Mr. J. P. McManus. In relation to this very generous contribution, arrangements are being made to have a copy of the legal agreement between the State and Mr. McManus placed in the Oireachtas Library. Of the Exchequer expenditure of £231 million, £135 million will be invested in Stadium Ireland with the balance being used to build the surrounding campus and to provide first class infrastructure, including an indoor arena capable of holding up to 15,000 people.

It is proposed that the facility will be located at Abbotstown in West Dublin which emerged, in the opinion of the consultants, as the most appropriate location for the proposed campus and stadium. The site is ideally located and an excellent infrastructure is already in place. Close to Dublin airport, it has significant frontage on to the M50 motorway. Once the M50 is completed, it will link all the main arterial routes to and from Dublin and the airport. The site of 495 acres is in State ownership and it is estimated that 220 acres will be required for the total complex, including parking. The total estimated building programme is scheduled to be completed in 2005.

Ireland's unprecedented economic performance provides a unique opportunity to address, once and for all, what has long been perceived as the single largest gap in our national sport and recreational infrastructure, namely the absence of a major venue to accommodate all international field sport events. Sporting excellence is a potent symbol both nationally and internationally, and is, increasingly, an important engine for economic and social development. A national stadium of the quality envisaged provides a new and improved opportunity for the best of Irish sport to pit themselves against all comers in an amphitheatre which will allow all to perform to the best of their ability before 80,000 enthusiastic supporters drawn from one of the most sports-mad countries in the world. Of equal importance will be the economic spin-offs which will accrue to Ireland both in terms of its enhanced attractiveness as a location for major international sporting events and its projection as a modern, vibrant, energetic and welcoming nation.

At present, the facilities in which we host our international sporting events, which are broadcast worldwide, are poor in comparison with those of our European neighbours and neither reflect nor project Ireland's desired image of excellence. In spite of being a nation of sports enthusiasts and in spite of much discussion over the years about the need for such a landmark facility, Ireland still does not have a stadium which is capable of hosting all its field sports. Now, for the first time in the history of the State, we are fortunate enough to have the wherewithal to consider building a state-of-the-art stadium comparable with the best in the world and capable of accommodating a wide range of sporting and spectator events for the whole island of Ireland. The stadium will possess sufficient amenities, together with the surrounding infrastructure, to satisfy the ever increasing requirements from the public and the media in this new age of popular sport.

The concept is rooted in the belief that strategic infrastructural investment made today will realise significant benefits for future generations. A great stadium will contribute much to national prestige and our sense of national pride and the existence of a world class stadium will provide the basis for building on our national love of sport and our ability to compete with the best in the world.

In recent years, a number of our nearest European neighbours have developed major stadiums, for example Stade Francais in Paris, the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff and major re-developments and expansions at Murrayfield, Twickenham and, currently, Wembley Stadium.

While I do not deny that previous Governments may have paid attention to sporting matters in the past, it was very much "by the way" or as an adjunct to other policies and strategies. This position has changed radically under the present Government and with the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for sport with a seat at Cabinet the Irish sports sector took a giant step forward. In the 30 months or so since the Government took office, Irish sport has benefited from unprecedented and long sought developments such as the enactment of the Irish Sports Council Act, 1999, and the establishment of a new statutory council dedicated to the promotion of sport; the introduction of Ireland's first ever anti-doping in sport programme, making Ireland one of only about 30 countries worldwide with its own such programme; the launch of an international carding scheme specially designed to meet the needs of our high performing sportspersons; the beginning of the construction of Ireland's first ever 50 metre swimming pool in Limerick and an almost fourfold increase in provision for annual spending on the sports capital programme, including an increase from £3 million last year to £15 million for local authority swimming pools and grant allocations totalling up to £20 million for other sport and recreational facilities spread across the country. In the next three years, £45 million will be spent on swimming pool infrastructure alone.

Last year I was in the happy position to be able to allocate almost £14.5 million to about 400 community and voluntary groups towards the provision of local sport and recreational facilities in towns and villages throughout the country, another £3.5 million to national and regional facilities at seven locations throughout the country and more than £2 million to a range of county GAA grounds and FAI grounds. Since my appointment, grant allocations have been made in respect of some 800 projects throughout the country. The amount of financial support provided in the 1999 Estimates exceeded the combined allocations by the previous Government in the three years 1995-97. The overall provision in this year's Estimates for sport is up again to approximately £49 million. The comparable figure when I took office in 1997 was £13.5 million.

It has been suggested that the funding which will be required for the development of Sports Campus Ireland and Stadium Ireland will bring about a reduction in the funding which will be available for supporting projects throughout the country under the sport capital programme. The amendment put down by Deputy Allen makes this very point. I assure the House that this Government has embarked on an ambitious pro gramme of funding for the development of our sporting infrastructure through our sport capital programme and no funds will be diverted from the annual provision for this scheme into supporting the development of Sports Campus Ireland.

Never has so much grant assistance been approved for so many different sports facilities and in so many locations. The decision to facilitate the development of an 80,000 seat national stadium, capable of accommodating all field sports, is a logical progression in the Government's ambitions programme to develop and upgrade the nation's sport and recreational infrastructure. It is right that Irish sportspersons and athletes, who are benefiting from the improved facilities now available around the country, and from the other supports and services now being provided by the State, should have a world class stage in their own country, where they can compete and showcase their skills and prowess against their world class peers.

While Stadium Ireland will be the focal point of the proposed campus, the total campus will provide a much needed facility of international standard for a wide spectrum of sports and activities. The stadium will be designed in such a way as to enable it to be converted for athletics at minimal costs. It will include an indoor arena, capable of holding up to 15,000, for a wide range of different sports and entertainment events, as well as a series of multi-purpose sports halls for use by different sports. State of the art medical and sports science facilities will also be available on campus. A core value of Stadium Ireland is that it will be accessible to all sports on a basis of equity. The development company, which will be established shortly, will now proceed with the design and development of Sports Campus Ireland following consultations with the national governing bodies of sport.

Of course, not every Irish person is a sports participant, and certainly not of competition standard. However, there is no denying that we are a nation of sports enthusiasts with many of us committed fans and spectators of the various disciplines which will be accommodated at Stadium Ireland. Now, in addition to being able to accommodate much larger numbers at events featuring on the existing Irish sporting calendar, we can also look forward to seeing some of the very best in international sporting spectacles in comfort and safety and in the flesh.

As Minister with responsibility for tourism as well as sport, I am particularly pleased that the availability of this exciting new facility also has the potential to benefit our tourism industry. As the House is aware, a significant feature of our tourism marketing and promotion efforts in recent years has been our success in attracting a number of major international sporting events to Ireland. Events such as the Cutty Sark Tall Ships Race and the Tour de France have attracted enormous international publicity, while the Special Olympics World Summer Games in 2003 and the Ryder Cup in 2005 will help to keep that precious media attention firmly focused on Ireland. Without having the infrastructure in place, we would never have been able to proceed with the Ryder Cup. Indeed, in last December's budget, I secured £2.5 million for the setting up of a dedicated unit within Bord Fáilte with the specific task of exploring opportunities to promote Ireland as a venue for international sporting events and to develop strategies for attracting them here in the future. I have no doubt our future success in this regard will be boosted enormously by the availability of Stadium Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle

By order of the House, the Minister has 15 minutes which he has now exceeded.

Dr. McDaid

I wish to conclude.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. McDaid

For many years now we have been listening to a constant stream of complaints and criticism, mainly directed against politicians, about Ireland's lack of top quality sports facilities to match the top class efforts and performance of our international sportspersons and to help level the playing field for them with other nations. Politicians have been constantly castigated. There have been sad choruses lamenting the pitiful state of our major facilities and the lost opportunities with events going to foreign lands. Today, for the first time in our history, we can afford to consider doing something about it. What is needed is the vision, confidence and determination to persist with the undertaking and give our country something it can be proud of.

In the same way that our successful economy has led to extraordinary opportunities for our people in terms of jobs and prosperity, so too can the timely provision of this crucial piece of sports infrastructure ensure that Ireland is well positioned to avail fully of the rapidly expanding commercial opportunities now emerging from growth in demand for international sport, driven by the unprecedented expansion in leisure. Most importantly, this facility will also provide an unprecedented range and quality of facilities for our top established stars as well as our young and developing sports people to nurture their talents, hone their skills and sharpen their competitive edge in an environment which is conducive to the achievement of excellence. I commend this motion to the House.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 1:

To add the following to the motion:

"but asks the Government to give assurances that capital funding will not be diverted from sporting organisations for the development of their own facilities to encourage participatory sport, that it will allocate capital funding to the FAI on a pro-rata basis as has been allocated to the GAA for the development of Croke Park, and that an independent cost-benefit analysis will be carried out on the national stadium project before any major irrevocable commitment is made."

The Strategic Plan for Sport in Ireland 1997-2006, which I published in 1997 following wide consultation with sports organisations and all the political parties, advocated a national stadium. The Minister's speech, which was very self-congratulatory, should have mentioned that the proposals for the senior Ministry and greater resources for sport were contained in that policy document and plan adopted by all political parties. I was of the view that up to the mid-1990s sport did not have a corporate plan and that, like a businessman going into a bank, a Minister for sport going to a Minister for Finance without an overall strategy or plan did not have a hope of obtaining the resources sport deserved. It was the publication of that plan which convinced Governments and Ministers for Finance to loosen the purse strings in relation to sport. I support much of what the Minister is proposing because it conforms with the national plan published in 1997.

The proposal for a national stadium contained in the national plan has been misrepresented by the Minister as a ploy to undermine our credibility in questioning certain aspects of the development of a national stadium. The plan reads:

Ireland needs a high quality national outdoor multi-sports stadium. The development of a national multi-purpose outdoor stadium must be driven by the appropriate NGBs in partnership with the private sector, relevant local authorities and be based on sound commercial projections. In the event of an appropriate proposal emerging, the Government should support and actively promote such a venture.

One of the essential elements in the plan was that it should be driven by the appropriate NGBs. This is not the case, neither is it based on sound commercial projections. My opinion on this key principle in the plan has not changed since 1997 but the scenario has changed dramatically. The GAA has proceeded with the redevelopment of Croke Park and received £20 million of taxpayers' money to fund that development, and the FAI has announced the privately funded construction of Eircom Park, which will cater for the needs of that organisation. I applaud both organisations for their courage and vision in going ahead with these projects. The national stadium proposed by the Government is not being pushed by any governing body. Even if the stadium is not built, the IRFU has all the resources it needs to develop its own facilities.

Despite the development of Croke Park and Eircom Park, the Taoiseach announced some weeks ago the construction of a stadium at Abbotstown, costing at least £230 million of taxpayers' money. The Minister said at the outset that 220 acres of land at Abbotstown will be used for the construction of the stadium. The cost of that land is not factored into the overall cost. I question the real cost of developing the infrastructure necessary to transport people to and from the stadium. Therefore, when one talks about £230 million of taxpayers' money, one is ignoring the potential value of the land and the infrastructural development which will have to take place. The Taoiseach, in response to a question in this House on 13 October 1999, stated that he was informed for the first time of the Eircom development through a telephone call made to him while he was in Jerusalem. The Taoiseach's statement in the Dáil certainly misled me into believing that he was hearing of the project for the first time when I subsequently learned that he had two meetings with senior officials of the FAI to discuss their plans long before the phone call to Jerusalem. Therefore, he must have been aware of the decision to be announced by the FAI about Eircom Park.

The decision to build a stadium at Abbotstown comes at a time of enormous demand from sporting organisations, community groups and clubs at national, regional and local level throughout the country for capital grant aid towards projects. The Minister will confirm that he has approximately 2,000 applications in his Department requesting grants for sports projects valued at more than £600 million. Coupled with that demand, there is a serious situation where less than half our schools have sports halls. This is appalling and hinders seriously the development of sport and recreation within the education system. Where are the objectives contained in the strategy plan for the development of sport and recreation in the education system? There has been very little such progress in the past two and a half years.

This bleak scenario conflicts seriously with one of the major objectives of the national plan, which is to provide young people with quality opportunities for early involvement in physical activity and sport, as well as to provide teachers and sports leaders with the opportunity to undertake recognised training in the area of sport for young people. It also conflicts with the objective of providing quality resources in our schools and communities for young people in order to develop realistic pathways for them into recreation, participatory and high performance sport. The development of sport in our education system was one of the key issues identified in the national plan for sport, and that has not been addressed. This is an urgent issue and I am very concerned about the deteriorating fitness of young people. My view has been strengthened recently by comments made by Brian Kerr, FAI coach, who said that the fitness level of young footballers now coming to him is much lower than it was ten years ago. This has major implications on a number of fronts, including the health area.

The major investment by the Government in a national stadium – I use the words consciously – will not be in reality a national stadium as it will not have the key players involved. The key players in field sports are the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU. The Minister said the GAA is committing two or three events during the year. I do not think that is practical. The Minister is not fooling anyone in saying that. When the FAI has its 45,000 stadium it will have contractual agreements, as will the GAA, for corporate boxes and so on because big business is now tied into all these events. It is ridiculous to suggest that these organisations will take major events out of their stadia to put into the stadium in Abbotstown. The proposed national stadium, which will not have the key players involved, is coming at a time when thousands of clubs in the four corners of Ireland are existing on a shoestring and when young people are still stripping off on the sides of ditches and in containers without electricity, water or sanitation. The Minister is well aware that this is the real face of Irish sport.

The Minister was misleading when he stated recently on "Prime Time" that he has so much money to give out that he cannot spend it on clubs, since clubs are failing to claim funding allocated to them. However, he knows better than I do that he rejected applications from approximately 1,300 organisations last year for funding. Clubs and organisations which work under primitive conditions developing the skills and talents of our sports people were refused help. The Minister, for example, was in Cork recently for a Cabinet meeting in the Hollyhill area, near where I live. He was within a quarter of a mile of a club which was refused a grant by him in 1999, a club which caters for hundreds of young boys and can only offer them a football ground of poor quality and a container without lighting, heating, water or sanitation. They were told, "sorry, but try again next year". This is repeated throughout the country and no gloss or PR will override the fact that clubs are struggling and being refused help. I cannot equate what the Minister is doing with the reality throughout the four corners of the country.

I am asking what is the status of the national strategy for the development of sports facilities at national, regional and local levels? The £220 million now available for a sports stadium is being invested in a project which has a major question mark over its viability.

On the television programme "Prime Time" recently, the Minister, in my presence, gave a number of reasons for having the stadium. The first was that, because every banana republic in the world had a stadium, Ireland should have one. The second was that no one knew what the future would hold for sport in Ireland and we should have a facility in place to cover all eventualities. It is a characteristic of banana republics to build grandiose projects for personal egos and neglect the genuine needs of the people. The type of decision being made in the case of the stadium at Abbotstown has these characteristics.

The Minister, in justifying the stadium for the second reason, conveniently ignores the qualifications placed by the national plan on the construction of a national stadium. The key proposals in that section of the national plan have been torn up and discarded. Before investing funding of such magnitude, surely the Government should have spoken to what would have been the key participants in any national stadium – the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU – about the possibility of pooling resources to build a true national stadium of which we could all be proud. Instead, the Government acted without a strategy and it is proposing to spend taxpayers' money in a questionable manner. Therefore, I am asking that an independent cost-benefit analysis be carried out on the national stadium project before any irrevocable commitment is made. This feasibility study should be truly independent and not similar to the study carried out at the behest of the Minister and the Taoiseach.

The cost to the Exchequer of this project has been put at £230 million but I question the actual cost. I applaud the public spirit of any individual who offers £50 million to a public project such as this and in posing questions I do not in any way question the motives of that individual who has been most generous to a wide range of projects in the past. However, I must ask about the status of the offer and if it has been made in writing. The Minister said copies of the contract will be placed in the Oireachtas Library and I will examine it when that is done. These questions are valid and I expect answers. I have already been criticised for asking questions about the status of the offer, the motives behind it and the validity of the project. However, these questions need to be asked and answers must be given.

Sport in Ireland is changing rapidly and the demands of professionals and those who consider sport a business may take precedence over participatory sport and the great spirit of volunteerism that is the lifeblood of sport. Despite limited resources in the past, sport in Ireland has produced champions at all levels. However, this happened because of the great spirit of volunteerism at local level in urban and rural areas which has encouraged young people to get involved in healthy activities rather than be attracted to drugs and crime.

True sport is about the development of skills and talents from early childhood. Sport is not only about Sky Sports's hyperventilated viewpoint. It is not only about professional rugby or soccer which appears to be the main menu offered by our national television station at present. This station axed the Saturday sports programme and thereby excluded 90% of sports organisations from our screens.

I presume the Government will make a realistic response to the FAI's major redevelopment programme for its major grounds in view of the fact that, in a telephone conversation with the leader of the Fine Gael Party shortly before the Government announced details of the national stadium, the Taoiseach said the FAI would receive pro rata State funding for Eircom Park to the funding the GAA received for Croke Park. As the addendum to the motion seeks, the FAI should receive this pro rata funding in addition to its usual capital funding requirements.

Mr. O'Shea

Tá áthas orm seans a fháil páirt a ghlacadh sa díospóireacht tábhachtach seo ar an Tairiscint maidir le Campas Spóirt Éireann agus Staidiam Éireann. Tá an forbairt seo thar a bheith tábhachtach os rud é go bhfuil trí fhorbairt éagsúil sa chathair seo faoi láthair, sé sin, an forbairt atá ar siúl ag an Chumann Lúthchleas Gael i bPáirc an Chrócaigh atá ag druidim chun deiridh anois; an plean ag an FAI le haghaidh Eircom Park atá ag dul ar aghaidh go tapaidh agus an forbairt seo ag an Rialtas. Tá Páirtí an Lucht Oibre fábharach Staidiam Náisiúnta a chur ar fáil ach tá eolas de dhíth orainn. Teastaíonn uainn a fháil amach an bhfuil comhoibriú mar is ceart ar siúl idir an Rialtas, an FAI agus an Cumann Lúthchleas Gael.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to contribute to this important debate and I wish to move the Labour Party's amendment to the motion.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Briscoe)

The Deputy cannot move the amendment until the Fine Gael Party's amendment has been disposed of, but he may refer to the Labour Party amendment during his contribution.

Mr. Allen

My proposal is an addendum.

Mr. O'Shea

Perhaps the Acting Chairman could advise me on a procedural point. The Labour Party amendment is first on the Order Paper.

Acting Chairman

I apologise to the Deputy but the Fine Gael amendment was moved first.

Mr. Allen

It is not an amendment. It is an addendum.

Acting Chairman

I am told that it is an amendment, not an addendum.

Mr. Allen

It is an addendum to the motion.

Acting Chairman

It is an amendment to the motion and that is the Chair's ruling on the matter.

Mr. O'Shea

I accept the Acting Chairman's ruling and I thank him for his assistance.

There has scarcely been a time in our history when the provision of sporting facilities has been more needed. There is the healthy lifestyle aspect of a range of sports which all citizens can engage in throughout their lifetimes. In an age when too many of our young people abuse drugs and alcohol, attractive activities which offer a wholesome and disciplined alternative are a necessity. Involvement in sport, particularly team sports, can develop a sense of place and a sense of community. Sport stimulates energy and vibrancy in communities.

In personal, local and national life, sport provides enrichment of quality of life. Sport provides well paid careers and a substantial range of employment. The Labour Party fully supports the promotion and development of the widest possible range of sporting activities, but in holding that position it is equally aware, even in the face of the Celtic tiger economy, that limitless resources are not available. The careful management of the available resources is essential. Wasteful duplication and unsuitable and over ambitious projects are to be avoided. The Government must not only get the priorities right, but also address these priorities within an achievable timeframe and in a realistic way.

The Labour Party acknowledges the need for a national stadium that meets the country's sporting needs but, like many citizens, it is concerned about a situation where there could be three stadiums in the capital, each of which could and probably would be underutilised. The main concern of the Labour Party is that, in supporting the Government's decision to proceed with planning for the development of the sports campus and stadium, effectively it would be supporting a half-baked project of a Government which is in denial of the reality of matters.

The stadium steering committee has stated its belief that the stadium will fulfil the Taoiseach's and the Government's vision as an icon for the whole island in the new millennium. The choice of the word "icon" by the committee is rather puzzling, as the common understanding of "icon" has religious connotations and is hardly appropriate to describe a national sports stadium. The stadium steering committee has certainly elevated the vision of the Taoiseach and the Government to a very high plane.

The steering committee recommended that the Government locate the new stadium at Abbotstown, pointing out that the 495 acre site is in State ownership and meets all the criteria relating to the location of a national stadium. My information is that there has not been any consultation with the relevant planning authority, Fingal County Council. Section 4 "Financial Profile/Funding Options" of the steering committee recommendations states that:

The steering committee recommends that the Government decide that a positive decision on the new stadium is conditional on arrangements being made with the national governing bodies of sport such that a minimum case for meeting the operational costs is fulfilled.

Is the Minister expecting to be taken seriously when he is seeking the support of the Dáil for a proposal that has not yet been subjected to the scrutiny of this condition?

The steering committee further recommends that a positive decision on the new stadium is conditional on a satisfactory guarantee being in place for a private donation of £50 million. The Minister informed us this morning that a copy of the agreement between Mr. J. P. McManus and the State will be placed in the Library and this is very welcome, as it addresses a difficulty the Labour Party has with this project and we were seeking further information about this matter. Mr. McManus has set a very important headline here. I do not know if the Minister has had discussions with other wealthy individuals who might also want to make a donation to this project in the national interest, but I hope the initiative taken by Mr. McManus will inspire others to make funds available for this important project.

The initial statement of cost by the Government for the new stadium and campus was £281 million. The subsequent announcement of the additional 50 metres swimming pool will bring the total cost, as estimated at this stage, to between £296 million and £301 million. The Minister informed the House last week that the second 50 metres pool in Dublin will be a competition pool which will be required for the Special Olympics in 2003, while the Limerick 50 metres pool is to be a training pool. Every right thinking person will want the Special Olympics to be an outstanding success and to ensure that the very best facilities will be available, but the question must be asked: why was the 50 metres competition pool not announced at the time of the announcement regarding the stadium and campus?

When the £50 million private donation is deducted, there is still a shortfall of approximately £250 million. Where will this come from? It seems likely that the lion's share will come from the national lottery and the Exchequer and in addition, there is the prospect of funding being required from the national lottery on an annual basis. This leads to the inescapable conclusion that when such moneys are allocated to the stadium-campus project, it will be at the expense of something else. Will it be at the expense of regional, county and local projects? The Minister has assured us that funds will not be diverted from the sports capital programme to develop our sporting infrastructure, which is welcome. However, is there now a reduced possibility of the sports capital fund being enhanced in the future?

There are always difficult decisions to be made by Government in the allocation of scarce resources. If the stadium and campus are to be provided, it will be at the expense of other areas of expenditure. The question is whether the provision of the stadium should be a top priority for the Government. With the development of Croke Park by the GAA and the well advanced FAI plans for Eircom Park, there are fundamental questions that must be answered before the Government gets a blank cheque from this House to proceed with the planning of this project. What detailed discussions has the Government had with the national sporting bodies? Is it appropriate in terms of possible needless duplication and possible waste of taxpayers' money to have three large stadiums in the capital? Is the Government committed to the maximum degree of co-operation possible between sporting organisations in regard to the provision of facilities at national level? Will the Government initiate urgent discussions to this end? The Labour Party is calling on the Government to take the steps necessary to optimise the benefits of a national stadium to the people at large and to the State.

We have put down our amendment to signal our concerns to the Minister and will seek a voice vote. We will not seek to divide the House on the matter as we do not wish to be divisive. However, the Minister will be aware that Deputies are being questioned about this matter. The development of three major stadiums in the capital seems to be a case of over provision, but the Labour Party is fully open to being convinced by the Minister's arguments.

There was an article in The Irish Times this morning which related to Ferrybank AFC in my constituency. The club has nine schoolboy teams, two youth teams and two junior teams, but the players must still tog off in what are, effectively, containers. The Minister said in the article that he had sent Department officials all over Ireland to explain to people applying for lottery grants exactly what is required. It seems that Waterford was not one of the areas visited and I ask the Minister to correct that. There is a genuine problem in that people have difficulties with the forms and are not sure how to approach their applications. I welcome the fact that the Minister has sent people out and that there are also officials available to advise people by phone. As there is no substitute for a physical presence in the area I ask the Minister to address that problem. On the major issue, we need to be convinced that this project is not a white elephant, that it will fill a need and help develop sporting activities to the highest international standards, that there will be no needless duplication and no wastage of taxpayers' money or anyone else's money. A point made to me regularly is that the FAI has the money in place for the construction of Eircom Park and that there will be no cost to the taxpayer whereas it appears that £250 million, or the vast bulk thereof, will have to be provided by the State. It is in that context we have tabled an amendment.

Mr. Fleming

I welcome the opportunity to contribute and support the Government motion in connection with its decision to proceed with planning permission for the development of Sports Campus Ireland and Stadium Ireland, having noted the contents of the PricewaterhouseCoopers feasibility study. This debate is timely.

We have been aware for decades of the need for a national stadium. This view has been voiced by sports enthusiasts, the media and people throughout the length and breadth of the country but it has not come to pass. Given the improvement in the overall economic situation and that we are in a position to do something about it, it should be done as soon as possible.

Sports Campus Ireland will not be built at the expense of any other pressing, national or local need. The money is provided in the national development plan over the next six years and represents only a small percentage of the total expenditure. In addition, there will be much funding through the sports capital programme to organisations at local level. I am fully aware of the demands on the 1,900 organisations which applied for funding last year, 400 of which were successful. Many of those 400 have not yet drawn down their funds. The same is true of sports organisations and other community organisations which were granted funds in previous years. Where the Government has allocated funds those organisations should get on with the job as expeditiously as possible and improve the facilities at local level for which they have been given grant approval.

Later in the year substantial funding will be provided for other local voluntary organisations. I know from practical experience on the ground that the problem for most organisations is to find matching funds and get on with the job of providing the facilities. I do not believe this project will cut across the funding required for local organisations. If it was at the expense of local organisations and their efforts to improve participation at ground level, the Minister would be the first to say he would not proceed with this project.

The feasibility study was carried out by an experienced firm of consultants and all the major sporting organisations participated in consultations on this project before the final report was issued. The proposed location, Abbotstown, west County Dublin, off the M50 and somewhere between the N2 and the N3, would be accessible and would facilitate the provision of the necessary infrastructure.

Deputy Allen said the IRFU, the GAA and the FAI may not easily go to Sports Campus Ireland given that they will have business commitments in relation to their current stadium. While this is part of the problem, the undue influence of big business and corporate boxes is shutting out participation by ordinary people who cannot afford corporate boxes. This new project will bring sport closer to the ordinary people rather than it being the preserve of the major companies and co-operatives which sponsor corporate boxes for their guests who in all probability do not know the first thing about the game they are coming to watch. More space should be provided for ordinary people at these events.

Deputy O'Shea said in passing there had been no consultation with Fingal County Council on this matter. I know from direct personal experience that the county manager of Fingal County Council has been consulted on this matter but not extensively given that the project is only at the initial stages. The project will have to go through the normal planning process and there will be extensive consultation as it proceeds.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Not with the elected Members.

Mr. Fleming

I support that comment. I have no doubt the Minister will ensure there is appropriate consultation with the elected members of Fingal County Council at the first available opportunity.

Dr. McDaid

That has already been stated.

Mr. Fleming

I thank the Minister. This debate raises an important issue about sport. Sport is all about the quality of life. Through projects such as this we want to increase participation in sport by young boys and girls, men and women, also the number of spectators and ensure it becomes a more family-oriented event and not the preserve of those who have a strong interest in a particular sport. All would agree the Government should take steps to ensure sport is for all. On a couple of occasions in recent months an excellent journalist with one of the Sunday newspapers has written about this project and suggested it is a pet topic for the boys in Government. I understand where she is coming from because generally most spectators at major sporting events are men. All sport starts at ground level. I live in Castletown, County Laois and in 1995, for the first time ever, my village and parish qualified for the senior hurling county final in Portlaoise. I went to the match that afternoon with my wife and child. Practically every man, woman and child from the parish was there to see their local team. That is what participation is about. The new stadium will allow every man, woman and child who has an interest in sport to come along. It is a joyous occasion for everyone involved.

I record the gratitude of the people of Laois to the Minister for his support for the O'Moore stand development project in Portlaoise by allocating £300,000 towards this worthwhile project. When we go to future finals and other matches we will be able to watch them in greater comfort and safety.

Sports organisations should be careful not to become too caught up in the development and management of property. All organisations should look at their core activity and concentrate their efforts at local level. I could envisage too much of the time of senior management and national governing bodies being preoccupied with ensuring their particular grounds or properties were financially viable when their energies would be better devoted to getting more people involved in sport at local level.

This project is all about vision. I ask the other sports organisations to come on board because every sporting organisation is made up of voluntary members who have to spend too much time fundraising. If the national organisations have the benefit of Sports Campus Ireland they can con centrate more of their time, effort and financial resources on developing clubs at local level.

The Minister has outlined the many other uses for the national stadium, including entertainment events, concerts and major extravaganzas, such as Riverdance. We do not have a venue that would hold the audience such an event would attract. National stadiums in some countries are also used to accommodate religious and other conferences. The same could apply to this stadium. I also look forward to major pop groups, such as Westlife, performing at this venue in safety and comfort and to people travelling to and from such concerts in safety.

Westlife recorded a song entitled "I have a dream." I also have a dream that my son and other young boys and girls will one day be on the playing field of Campus Ireland representing with pride their county or country in front of 85,000 people. I do not mind if it is in Gaelic football, hurling, soccer, rugby, swimming, track and field athletics or whatever. This motion will help to make this dream a reality.

Mr. Perry

News of the pending surplus in sporting stadiums serving the city of Dublin brings to the point of absurdity a planning deficit which for a long time has made the capital city a dowdy backwater of the sporting world. At best, two of the three proposed facilities are viable. The GAA, with its busy calendar and a headstart, both in rebuilding Croke Park and in selling corporate space therein, can justify its independent stance. Neither the Government nor the FAI, who appear to be building facilities with which to slap each other's faces, can make the same claim. The Government's plan to build an 80,000 seat stadium sounds excessively grandiose given that Lansdowne Road is in a position to comfortably house its entire constituency for live rugby and the international soccer match that requires greater space is rare.

The lavish plans for the development make impressive reading but are certain to generate serious doubts as to whether State funding of up to £100 million should be made available to a stadium which may host only six or seven sell-out events a year. Although many concerns relate to funding for health services, education and social welfare, there will be a broad welcome for two out of the three stadiums, but a third stadium is unsustainable from a business point of view.

Dr. McDaid

We are planning for a national stadium because there is a need for one. I am not concerned with any specific organisation having a stadium.

Mr. Allen

The Minister is like a child asking Santa Claus for presents at Christmas.

Mr. Perry

The public will be angry if the Republic of Ireland soccer team finds itself playing a series of high profile World Cup games in a stadium with a capacity of 45,000 while almost twice as many supporters require tickets and could be housed in a stadium a few miles away.

Dr. McDaid

The FAI has agreed that matches which attract more than 45,000 people will be played in the stadium.

Mr. Allen

It said that would happen once every eight years.

Dr. McDaid

I have greater confidence in the Irish soccer team than whoever said that. The Irish soccer team will command crowds of between 60,000 and 80,000.

Mr. Perry

In purely sporting terms, Dublin does not require a stadium on the scale proposed. Given the position of the GAA and the FAI, the question of viability must be addressed. This is especially relevant when the state of capital spending allocations in sport are considered. For example, the Sligo Institute of Technology requires an eight lane athletics track, but an application by Teeling Sports and Leisure Centre, Collooney was refused, as were applications by St. Joseph's Amateur Boxing Club, St. John's Community Development, Carrowroe, and St. Anne's Youth Centre.

Dr. McDaid

They could not get builders.

Mr. Perry

Other applications that have been refused include those by Sligo Northside Community Sports and Leisure Centre, Mullinabreana/Coolaney GAA, Fr. Kevin Brehony Memorial Park, Keash, Ballymote Golf Club, Grange Cliffoney Sports Club, Ballinalack Community Park and Banada Abbey Hall Development.

Dr. McDaid

How many of the bodies in County Sligo that secured grants started construction work?

Mr. Allen

That is the Minister's problem.

Dr. McDaid

They cannot get started. Where does the Deputy propose to get the builders to undertake the work involved?

Mr. Allen

Last year the Minister refused applications by 1,400 clubs.

Acting Chairman

As time is limited, I ask the Minister to refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Perry

Other applications that have been refused include those by Adare Development Council, Sligo Tennis Club, St. Pat's GAA Club, Dromard, and Sligo Rovers.

I welcome the Minister's allocation of £150,000 to Sligo Rovers, but it is a long way from the minimum of £1 million that is required. Will the proposal to spend up to £280 million on a national stadium jeopardise future funding for other bodies?

The Minister referred to the lack of builders to undertake construction work. That is not what I am told by clubs who have submitted applications.

Dr. McDaid

Have they started work?

Mr. Perry

Of the 50 applications submitted from County Sligo, four obtained funding and they are spending the money.

Dr. McDaid

Has work started?

Mr. Perry

Yes.

Mr. Allen

The Minister is out of touch with reality.

Mr. Perry

Regardless of the implications of the building boom in terms of availability of builders, communities have made a huge commitment in the form of the detailed applications they have submitted. The Minister said there was a lack of understanding of the application process and he indicated that officials in his Department are establishing the criteria used when deciding on funding allocations. That is welcome. However, the 46 clubs in County Sligo that did not get funding are very disappointed. The reasons for refusal did not indicate a lack of construction crews to do the work.

The Minister's Department is unable to deal effectively with the sports capital programme. There is insufficient business to support three stadiums in Dublin. The Minister should, therefore, ensure funding applications submitted to his Department are dealt with. It is proposed to spend £230 million on a national stadium, yet County Sligo received only £150,000 in total under the last allocation of capital sports grants.

The relevant Oireachtas representatives should be made aware if there are difficulties with clarity in connection with an application because the onus is on all of us to ensure funding is provided to those who need it. Many areas have no facilities. For example, last week I visited Cartron Estate in Sligo, which has no facilities for under 12, 14 and 16 year olds. It has been told by the FAI that if it does not get a pitch it will no longer be eligible to participate in the league championships.

While the capital city needs major sports facilities it does not need three stadiums. The GAA is building an 80,000 seat stadium while the FAI is also building a smaller one. Questions must, therefore, be asked about the need for a new stadium and whether it will be viable and profitable. Business is void of sentiment. Who will run the stadium, who will pay for it and from where will the subsidies come? Will it be self financing or will future Government have to subsidise it? How can three stadiums located in the capital city be self financing? Has the feasibility study taken into consideration Eircom Park, Croke Park and the national stadium in terms of viability? While there is a very generous benefactor for Stadium Ireland, the £50 million could be the most expensive the State has ever received from the point of view of the subsidies which will be required and in terms of viability and profitability. Sport should be funded from the bottom up and the Government has failed dismally in this regard.

Mr. P. Carey

If I referred to the Chair as the referee perhaps he could introduce the sin bin. I honestly thought every Member without exception would applaud the decision of the Minister and the Government to proceed with Campus Ireland. I have heard this project talked about at numerous conferences for years. I have been associated in one way or another with sports administration since entering local politics in 1985 through the VEC. I remember being involved in a conference in the College of Technology, Bolton Street, in 1988 where sports bodies across the board, without exception spoke of the need for world class facilities such as those now being proposed. It is a milestone project and a clear signal that we are taking sport seriously at the highest level and I compliment the Government. That said, I am asking for some modifications and refinements.

Some of us might have laughed when Deputy Gay Mitchell as lord mayor set up the Dublin international sports council. He talked enthusiastically about the capacity of Dublin and Ireland to deliver major sports projects, not just for sporting reasons but also for good economic and tourism reasons. At the time we were trying to regenerate Temple Bar and were at the bottom of a very serious recession. I applaud Deputy Mitchell and the other people who supported him for their vision. I recall the late Noel Carroll when he returned from the Barcelona Olympics waxing lyrical about the ability of Ireland, with a little extra provision, to host not just the Special Olympics but the Olympic Games. I frankly thought he and Deputy Mitchell were somewhat hyperbolic to put it mildly, but they rationalised the project extremely well. We have hosted the Cutty Sark race, the Tour de France and the Ryder Cup, each of which have resulted in massive infusions of finance for the city, which I am particularly anxious to cater for, and the country.

I do not pretend to be an economist, but having read the summary findings regarding the project I am very pleased and heartened to note the project will stand on its merits. It will not just be a monument to the current Government or Taoiseach, but a signal to Irish people and the international sporting community that we are serious about sport.

I am very happy that it will be located in Abbotstown, a little outside my constituency of Dublin North-West. A couple of years ago that site was designated for the national science park, but when Deputy Rabbitte was Minister of State in the Department with responsibility for industry and technology he very skilfully transferred the project to the City West business park, and fair dues to him. I am glad this replacement project is being located in Abbotstown, a perfect location with plenty of land on which to build a high quality project beside the M50. Further modifications of the intersections around Blanchardstown will be necessary, while the extension of the Westlink toll bridge will facilitate it. The site is beside the rapidly expanding airport and the port tunnel. It could not be in a better location. It will not be competing with any other facility – the other facilities need to be developed and upgraded.

A few Members were in Australia during August and September 1999 and one of the places we visited was the Olympic Stadium in Sydney. Those watching the sports programme on TV3 last night will have seen some film footage showing the magnificence of the project. Undoubtedly there exists a commitment to spending large amounts of money, but what impressed me most about the location of the Olympic village is the number of other things which have been done. A run down part of Sydney is being rehabilitated through new housing which will become social housing after the Olympic Games. A rail infrastructure is being developed while there are bus and cycle lanes to beat the band. Believe it or not, some of the village is being built on a rehabilitated landfill site. In an Irish context, we have Dunsink landfill, which is almost as well known as this House for the way it was mismanaged over the years by Dublin local authorities. Thankfully the Dunsink landfill is being rehabilitated courtesy of stricter EPA and general environmental guidelines. I see an opportunity for the Government to develop significant spin-off developments around the Dunsink area. At one stage I suggested that the city council could nearly host the Winter Olympics given the height of the tip head at Dunsink. I discovered that Fingal County Council has received a proposal from a commercial developer for an artificial ski slope at that location. When I heard the proposal initially I thought it was slightly off the wall, but Deputy Higgins, who is a member of Fingal County Council, might be able to advance this in association with the project being discussed.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Unfortunately it will not be possible as the proposal is to cover the tip head with concrete and use it as a car park There will not be room for such an amenity.

Mr. P. Carey

Let us not be too local, but the side of the tip head Deputy Higgins has spoken about is not where the development was to take place.

We cannot underestimate the economic spin-offs of such a project. Putting a facility such as this in an area is almost as significant as locating a manufacturing facility in an area. The project will create jobs in a new sector. There are many young people being trained in post leaving certificate courses, in the University of Limerick and the institutes of technology who are being sought after in the leisure sector. I have no doubt these people will gain employment in this facility where exhibitions, conferences, concerts, etc. will take place.

Ireland must be able to attract its share of the growing television audience and there is a need for large-scale facilities to attract matches such as the European Cup, the Rugby World Cup and others which are televised to a vast world audience. Athletics has never been showcased in Ireland. Certainly previous Ministers, including Deputy Allen, have played their part in developing centres in Tullamore, Cork and elsewhere, but the Morton Stadium in Dublin, for example, has always been developed on the basis of a grant of maybe £10,000 this year, £30,000 next year, etc., from either Fingal County Council, Dublin Corporation or the national lottery. It is a good deal better than it was. For example, the bobsleigh team is using its facilities for training. An increasing number of young people play ice hockey but they must go to Northern Ireland to do so. There is a small ice rink in Phibsboro, Dublin, but it is inadequate. A facility could be developed for ice sports and it should be part of the new campus.

I am glad the 50 metre swimming pool will be fast-tracked so that it will be available in time for the Special Olympics, which are important. The extraordinary work of those involved in the Special Olympics needs to be supported and developed. An integrated policy with a bottom up approach is necessary and is being developed by the Minister. Physical education must be promoted in primary schools and additional sports halls must be provided. I am pleased the refurbishment of local authority swimming pools is coming on stream.

I have great admiration for the sports for all policy currently promoted by the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation and previously by the Department of Education. It has encouraged people to participate in sports who otherwise would not have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming involved in any sport, including walking or swimming. There is a role for such sports in a sports policy. The jewel in the crown will be Sports Campus Ireland. It would be churlish in the extreme if we were not to support it unanimously.

Mr. Deenihan

I wish to share my time with Deputies Sargent and Joe Higgins.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Kirk)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Deenihan

It is unfortunate that we do not have enough time to debate this matter. Sport interests many Members and, unfortunately, all of us will not be able to participate fully in the debate. I compliment the Minister and his predecessor, Deputy Allen, for their input into sport. Deputy Allen was responsible for laying down much of the policy that is being implemented and the Minister, Deputy McDaid, is an enthusiastic sports supporter. We are fortunate that both of them have held the sports portfolio over the past five years and they deserve recognition for their work.

I wrote an article in the Irish Independent in the late 1980s in which I outlined a sports policy, the kernel of which is being implemented now. At that time it may have been a fantasy and somewhat idealistic but now it is a reality because money is available. I support the Minister's policy but many of the ingredients that I proposed for inclusion in a national stadium have been provided since, such as market investment in Croke Park, the National Basketball Arena in Tallaght, a 50 metre swimming pool and the national coaching centre in Limerick. However, there is room for the Minister's proposal despite people describing it as a white elephant. I look upon it in a different light. The proposal will depend on how the campus is utilised and how much access people will have to its ancillary facilities. I envisage the provision of a national injury rehabilitation centre, accommodation for all the NGOs involved in sport and the adoption of a more scientific approach to sport. A larger concept could be built around the proposal.

There are a number of aspects to sports policy. Provision of facilities at national level has been poor while similar provision at local level has left a great deal to be desired. When money is committed at national level sight must not be lost of local communities because outside Dublin and the other major urban centres there is a huge need for decent sports facilities. Many facilities which were provided in the 1980s in rural Ireland are run-down and inadequate. The standards which were accepted then are not acceptable now for many of our younger athletes. There is a major need for the refurbishment and construction of new facilities. There should be a balanced building policy both at national and local level.

The Minister must examine mass participation and the issue of excellence. At one level more people must participate in sports while at another our top athletes must be looked after. There are indications that Ireland is becoming a nation of spectators and people are not participating in sport to the extent they did in the past. The walking craze seems to have waned and there are fewer joggers on our roads. The number of people involved in activities has decreased. Participation levels seem to have reduced and a national survey should be carried out on this.

This is my pet subject as I have a physical education background. The introduction of physical education as a subject at secondary level will not resolve the core problem of the lack of fitness among children. The Minister along with the Ministers for Education and Science and Health and Children should seriously examine the provision of physical education in schools, both at primary and secondary levels. I have expertise in this area and will examine this problem in conjunction with the Minister or anyone else. I have carried out two national surveys over the past ten years. The information is available and I want to discuss that with the Minister at a later date. It is critical for the future health and well-being of our nation.

Mr. Sargent

Tá áthas orm gur lua an Teachta Deenihan cúrsaí fisiciúl na n-óg mar tagann sin go croí-lár na ceiste. Tá an Comhaontas Glas ag tacú le bunú an Staid Náisiúnta. An t-aon imní a bheadh orainn ná go mbeadh rudaí eile thíos leis – cúrsaí spóirt don phobal i gcoitinne i measc rudaí eile. Cuireann an plean ag an bpoinnte seo an cineál polaitíochta i gcuimhne dom a bhíodh sa Ghearmáin roimh an Dara Cogadh Domhanda nuair a bhí clú agus cáil ar léirsithe móra ar nós Nuremburg agus mar sin de. An fhaid agus a bheadh clú agus cáil ar an taispeántas mór dhéanfadh na meáin chumarsáide neamhaird ar fhaidhbeanna mar bhochtanas, tithíocht, taisteal agus leigheas.

Thug aicneamaí le fios ag comhdháil gur fhreastal mé air Dé Sathairn seo caite gur ionann an costas a bhainfidh le Staid Éireann agus an costas a bheadh le tógáil 4,000 tigh, sé sin 4,000 de na mílte, mílte atá gan tithíocht nó gan dídean ar bith. Aontaím gur ghá ineistíocht a chur in áiseanna spóirt go háirithe go háitiúil agus tá súil agam nach mbeidh rudaí eile thíos leis an ineistíocht sa Staid mhór.

Ó thaobh Staid Éireann de ba mhaith liomsa cúpla ceist a chur ar an Aire. An ndíolfaidh an IRFU a staid siúd ar Bhóthar Lansdúin anois? An bhfuil aon eolas ag an Aire faoi cad tá beartaithe ansin? D'éirigh le Bóthar Lansdúin áis an-fhiúntach a chur ar fáil dúinn thar na blianta fada. Bhí rogha taistil ag an bpobal ann. Bhí taisteal poiblí nó d'fhéadfaidís siúl ann ó lár na cathrach, bhí sé chomh lárnach sin. Muna bhfuil ineistíocht i gcóras taistil phoiblí – in iarnróid agus i mbusanna – agus i gcárrchlósanna is mó riamh sa tír, cruthófar fadhbanna an-mhóra ó thaobh an phobail a bhfuil comhnaí orthu san áit. Tá mise buartha faoi sin

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire maidir leis an ainm a bheidh ar an staid. Tá sé ráite gur Stadium Ireland a bheidh air ach tá seans mór leis an ineistíocht seo cur le h-úsáid na Gaeilge sa tír. Tá mé ag impí ar an Aire é sin a chur san áireamh agus Staid Éireann nó Staid Tailteann a roghnú mar ainm coitianta ar an staid. Is mór an trua é Stadium Ireland a chloisint ó bhéal Airí Rialtais an t-am ar fad. Cheapann daoine gur London-Irish nó rud éigin mar sin atá i gceist nuair a chloiseann siad mar gheall ar Stadium Ireland. B'fhearr liomsa go mbeadh ainm Gaeilge air.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): There is no way that Members of the Dáil are in a position to vote today on this Government motion on the sports stadium. The vote presumes Deputies have noted, which means studied, the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which is a massive document. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Deputies have not had an opportunity to read it. This stadium is also predicated on receipt of £50 million from a private businessman, Mr. J. P. McManus, but we do not have sight of the legal agreement between Mr. McManus and the State. I want to see that agreement before I vote. I ask the Minister to read into the record the agreement between Mr. McManus and the Government. At the moment we can only speculate on its contents. Does it include a runway for Mr. McManus's private aeroplane as he jets in from his tax exile in Switzerland?

Sports is regarded as a way of raising the sights of youth to a healthy lifestyle and a better life. If this stadium is built, when the 80,000 spectators raise their eyes, they will see Mr. J. P. McManus snugly ensconced beside the Taoiseach of the day. He is a businessman who has made a fortune from gambling and speculation on the world's currency casinos, a profoundly anti-social, speculative venture that undermines poor countries, destroys social programmes and impoverishes people. Is that the model for youth? If Mr. McManus had stayed tax resident on this island rather than going off-shore, we would have hundreds of millions of such activities.

Acting Chairman

Gabh mo leithscéal. We cannot allow references to people outside the House who are not in a position to reply to allegations or assertions made in relation to them. I ask the Deputy to refrain from such remarks.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I have said what I wanted to say on that, and everything I said is true. There has been no consultation with Fingal councillors whose area will be deeply affected. It is advocated in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that the 275 acres of land that will be left over should be rezoned from agricultural to housing or commercial to bring in £80 million. The State is pushing itself, through this project, into land speculation.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Minister may not know that planning permission has been given for 1,700 houses just beside this area, and an application has been made for another 2,200. This was to be a green break between the greater Blanchardstown area and Finglas. The Minister presumes to destroy it. What about the 300 workers who were not consulted before this announcement was made? What will happen to them and to the existing projects?

Mr. B. Smith

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak in support of the Government's decision to proceed with the planning of Sports Campus Ireland and the associated construction of a new national stadium. I commend the Minister and his officials on their work and initiative in advancing to this stage the idea of a new national stadium. Over the past two and a half years, the Minister has secured very substantial funding for the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. If I thought the provision of a stadium would take away from the development of regional and local sports centres, I would not be an enthusiastic supporter of the project but I welcome the Minister's categorical assurance that this will not be the case and that funds will not be diverted from the existing sports capital programme towards the provision of the national stadium.

There are none of us who have not felt a great sense of pride when we see one of our athletes, swimmers or our national football team do well on the international arena. We may hear our national anthem played many times during the year but it has a special resonance, producing an even greater sense of pride, when it commemorates the success of one of our own far from our shores. Our athletes and sports men and women are truly our ambassadors in tracksuits, carrying the torch of a new Ireland, embodiments of a pride in being Irish and in all things Irish.

Apart from all their other benefits, the new sports campus and stadium will be an icon of a new sense of national identity. Our sports men and women have contributed substantially to the fashioning of a new Irish identity. There was a time when we used to look back to a mystic, mythological past in search of heroes like CúChulainn or Fionn Mac Cumhaill. Today, we do not have to look back. Instead, we can look all around us. Our sporting heroes have contributed to the defining of a new patriotism in which all can share. Their success is due to endless hours of training, a lifetime of dedication and vast reserves of stamina. Only a small number of people can ever reach the level of excellence of Sonia O'Sullivan or Catherina McKiernan, but it does no harm to try. Their achievements set a clear example of excellence which we can all try to achieve in our own chosen areas.

Dedication and ability are not enough to ensure success in today's competitive sporting world. We need to ensure that our athletes have access to the best possible training facilities which will rank alongside those available to others. This can only be achieved through the construction of a sports campus. Such a campus would be a clear signal of our commitment to excellence. It will place the best facilities for the majority of sports under one roof instead of allowing a multiplicity of facilities to be spread too thinly. Furthermore, the most advanced techniques in the vitally important area of sports medicine and sports science will be available within the campus, providing yet another element of excellence.

Mr. Allen

What will happen in Limerick?

Mr. B. Smith

There will be adequate need for all these facilities.

The sports campus and the national stadium will be of major benefit to the most pre-eminent of our sports stars, but its facilities will not and should not be available solely to the elite. It will also provide a marvellous platform for people to view their sporting heroes in action in an arena of international standard without leaving our shores. This will attract major television companies eager to relay events taking place in such an important sporting location.

Our new national stadium and sports complex will attract visitors from overseas and will have a vitally important place in our tourism sector. There are many examples of major sporting facilities which attract visitors to areas which might seem to be the opposite of a major tourism destination. The majority of sports fans are willing to travel. The building of a national sports stadium will mean that we will be able to attract a significant proportion of this important section of the tourism industry. Its location at Abbottstown, close to Dublin Airport, will enhance its attractiveness to visitors coming from outside the State, while its position close to the M50 motorway will facilitate access from within Ireland, North and South.

The national stadium will be used for more than just sport. Its flexible design means that it can be adapted at short notice and at little expense to cater for different types of sporting events. A building with a capacity of 80,000 seats will be a major asset for a whole host of cultural activities, especially musical concerts catering for different tastes and age groups. Some of the existing locations for these events are far from suitable. They are incapable of catering effectively or safely for crowds while ancillary facilities and services, from toilets to restaurants, are often non-existent. These problems will be solved with the building of a new national stadium.

It will be built with a large number of people in mind, so safety and comfort will be guaranteed. It will also be built to cater for the interests of a wide range of audiences so it will not be inflexible. The further contribution of non-sporting activities to our tourism sector will be hard to quantify. The provision of a national stadium is a clear signal of the Government's support for the spectrum of recreational activities from the level of professional sport to local sports clubs.

A national sports campus and new national stadium have long been sought. The decision to build them, however, was not taken on the spur of the moment but followed extensive rounds of consultation with relevant parties, ranging from those involved in sport to those who have experience in managing large sporting facilities. This project will involve a great deal of money but the expenditure will be worthwhile and will mean getting the project right.

The new sports campus and stadium have many benefits. One of the greatest is the role they will have in fostering our national pride. It is the best and most fitting way for the people of Ireland to thank the sportsmen and sportswomen whose selflessness has lifted our hearts and to say to the many rising stars of the sports world, for whom medals must surely wait in the future, that we believe in them and wish to help them every pace of the track.

The closing date for new applications under the recreational and sporting facilities programme is the end of this week. Undoubtedly there will be thousands of applications. The funding for that programme should be increased substantially. All public representatives meet the officers of local sporting clubs and community groups but, unfortunately, a dwindling number of volunteers participate in recreational, sporting and voluntary organisations generally. Given the excellent work being undertaken by a small number of people in each parish, all worthwhile projects should get adequate funding to ensure that every parish and community has the level of facilities to which the people are entitled.

The Minister has made good progress since he took office in June 1997 in providing additional funding under this heading. I urge him to provide substantially more this year to clear many of the worthwhile applications with his Department.

Acting Chairman

Deputies Ulick Burke, Currie and Seán Ryan have indicated that they wish to contribute. I remind them that I am obliged to call the Minister at six minutes past one.

Mr. U. Burke

I welcome the project being embarked on by the Government. It is important that we have a national stadium of international standard. However, there is huge confusion among the public and various sporting organisations as to the consequences of constructing this national stadium.

There have been consultations by the steering committee. However one must query what has happened given the stand off position adopted by other national organisations with regard to this project. It is difficult to believe that, not having had a national stadium, there is now the prospect of the country having four important stadiums in the capital. There will be this national stadium in addition to the stadiums of the FAI, the IRFU and the GAA.

Mr. Deasy

We do not need Lansdowne Road.

Dr. McDaid

There is only one national stadium.

Mr. U. Burke

I will not get into those difficulties. The national organisations have said they do not object to this facility. However, the question exercising the public is whether the provision of this stadium will cause a drain on funding and, if not, it is important that the Minister clearly states as much and that funding will not be cut off at any source.

It is much appreciated in my constituency that the Minister has agreed to meet a group from Tuam, County Galway, this afternoon. Tuam is a classic example of what might happen. Its stadium is the headquarters of gaelic football in Galway and Connacht but it has been allowed to deterio rate to a standard which has been called into question with regard to safety and health in the past 12 months. The group is seeking funding from the Minister's Department and I hope he will have good news for it. However, that is another day's work. This is a legitimate group which has been side stepped by the national organisation because the GAA has opted for the development of Pearse Stadium in the city of Galway. Tuam stadium, however, for health and safety reasons must get funding if it is to retain its position as the focus of football in Connacht and Galway.

I hope the Minister will clarify the funding aspect. As the Minister's Department and the Department of Education and Science have decided to include physical education in the school curriculum, they must allocate resources for facilities in schools for physical education. The manpower is there and always has been, even if only on a voluntary basis. Now resources are needed to bring training and facilities to an acceptable standard.

I hope the Minister will respond immediately to the criticisms of this major development going ahead. Some people consider it unnecessary. I welcome it but it is important that the criticisms being made are confronted instantly so these sporting developments can take place side by side.

Mr. Currie

We have been told that this is an inspiring project and in some respects it is. We have been told it is a potent national and international symbol, an engine for economic and social development and a potent symbol of the new, young Ireland of the future. These claims may or may not be true. Undoubtedly, there is an element of exaggeration.

However, in the few minutes I have available, I will not deal with these high faluting matters but with the practicalities. I do not make any apology for being parochial; I am a firm believer in the aphorism of Tip O'Neill about all politics being local. I am concerned about the possible effects of this project on my constituents and their quality of life. The Minister said it is proposed that the facility will be located in Abbotstown in west Dublin, which emerged in the opinion of the consultants as the most appropriate location for the proposed campus and Stadium Ireland. I cannot verify that because I have not had the opportunity of looking at the report.

The Minister added that the site is ideally located with an excellent infrastructure in place. Close to Dublin Airport, it has significant frontage on to the M50 motorway and once that motorway has been completed, it will link all the main arterial routes to and from Dublin and the airport. The site of 495 acres is in State ownership and it is estimated that 220 acres will be required for the total complex, including parking. That is all very well, but what about the people who will have to live and work adjacent to this proposed stadium? There are already major traffic problems in the area which are increasing daily. Traffic congestion more than housing is the number one problem in my constituency of Blanchardstown, Castleknock and the Dublin 15 area generally. What effect will an 80,000 seat stadium and an indoor arena capable of holding 15,000 have on my constituents in terms of traffic congestion, noise, fumes and frustration? What effect will it have on their quality of life? Were these matters even considered?

We were told about the wide consultation which took place with stadium management companies with similar facilities in the UK, France, Germany, Portugal, Australia and the United States. We were told that "This was by far the most extensive consultative process and the most in-depth analytical study ever carried out in Ireland .". Did anyone ever think of consulting the local people?

Dr. McDaid

Yes. That was a feasibility study.

Mr. Currie

People in the United States and Australia were consulted. Did anyone think of consulting the people in the vicinity, the local organisations, the local council or the local planning authorities?

Mr. Allen

They do not count.

Mr. Currie

We were told by Deputy Fleming that consultation took place with the manager of Fingal County Council. I do not know if that is the case. Did that consultation take place before a decision was taken or since then? Have local people the right to be consulted on these issues which will have such an effect on them?

I have tabled questions to the Ministers for the Marine, Finance and Agriculture, Food and Rural Development on the effect on operations such as the Teagasc production research centre, the Marine Institute and other organisations which employ at least 350 people in the area? What will happen to the activities of those State-funded organisations? I attempted in advance of the publication of the report to discover if consultation had taken place with those Departments. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development did not even know of the proposal and that is verifiable. These are important matters to which my constituents deserve an answer because they will have a major effect on their quality of life and I deserve answers in the House to those questions.

Mr. S. Ryan

On 13 October last, I raised with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation media reports to the effect that the Minister had indicated to the FAI that he was prepared to contribute £11 million to the organisation on condition that it did not proceed with the development of its own sports stadium, Eircom Park. If that had been true, then it would have been undue pressure on the FAI. In fairness to the Minister, he said that it was not the case. He wished the FAI well and the Government was proceeding with its proposals. While I took this with a pinch of salt, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Government are playing to the gallery and to the public. The Government and its consultants are well aware that it will take two or three of the country's major sporting organisations to be on board to make a success of the proposed national stadium and that the FAI will have to be one of them. Otherwise, in the short-term, the national stadium could end up a white elephant requiring massive annual injections of finance which would reduce resources dedicated to other local and national sporting organisations.

The Government has embarked on a well orchestrated campaign with the support of many of the Taoiseach's friends in the media and in the League of Ireland to discredit Eircom Park in favour of its own national stadium proposal. The recent appointment of a public relations team by the Government at the taxpayers' expense is another indication of the Government's attitude. They put the Government spin on issues to confuse sports fans and ordinary people throughout the country.

Prior to the budget the FAI produced a detailed analysis for improving the quality of life and social inclusion through the development of soccer in Ireland. It did not receive the courtesy of an explanation why it was not taken on board. The proposal was rejected out of hand. Furthermore, the FAI recently had reason to take issue with the Government on its refusal to contribute to the cost of the recent postponement of the Ireland versus Yugoslavia match. These are the reasons the Government is taking it out on the FAI.

Soccer has been the Cinderella sport in the past, partly because of the inefficiency of the FAI and partly because of a cartel in the organisation which was more interested in perks than in the organisation. However, the FAI now has a proposal to provide the type of facilities needed. The Minister is sufficiently familiar with sports to know that, in a 45,000 seater stadium, an atmosphere similar to the Dalymount or Lansdowne roars can be achieved. How can such an atmosphere be achieved in an 80,000 seater stadium? The Minister can proceed with his proposals, but he should not put spanners in the works for the FAI which is proceeding with its proposals and put at risk in the long-term the recreational facilities for youth and sporting organisations the length and breadth of the country.

At last Monday's meeting of Fingal County Council, the chief planner stated clearly that the Government had not been in contact with Fingal County Council, which is the planning authority for the area, yet the Government is proceeding with the spin doctors' proposals for the stadium. The Minister should take his head out of the sand and deal with the people.

Mr. Allen

The Deputy is right. It is a dictatorship.

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I was going to respond with a text, but given the points made by Deputies, I will do my utmost to give them as much information as possible. I was about to say that I thank all Deputies for their support for the motion. Perhaps Deputy Seán Ryan was over the top but he probably also deserves an explanation.

Mr. Allen

He was not, if the Minister was listening.

Dr. McDaid

If Deputy Ryan had read the special plans, he would have seen that the stadium contracts to suit whatever number is required, 40,000, 50,000, 60,000, 80,000 or whatever.

I have stated on the radio that the people in the area and their public representatives will be informed of the proposed plans. Two different boards will be established, one of which will be the company to run the stadium and will contain people from the steering committee who will have expertise. They will know what they are talking about, and they could meet with public representatives so that residents will be fully informed.

Deputy Allen's amendment refers to a capital allocation to the FAI. The Government has always wished the FAI well with its ambitious project. It is entitled to proceed with it and it has been exceptionally successful in the past. Its crowds would have exceeded 60,000 people on numerous occasions and its spectators have been our greatest ambassadors throughout the world. The Government has nothing but praise for the FAI and wishes it well in everything it tries to do.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Minister is undermining it.

Dr. McDaid

With regard to meeting the costs of the proposed Eircom Park, the FAI has stated publicly that the funding package for its project is entirely in place and that no support has been sought from the Government.

Mr. Allen

That is not correct.

Dr. McDaid

In the context of the funding for soccer facilities under the 1999 sports capital programme, I was happy to be in a position to allocate £3.4 million to soccer facilities. In 1999 alone, we allocated more funding to local facilities than the previous Government allocated in 1995, 1996 and 1997.

Mr. Farrelly

And well the Minister might.

Dr. McDaid

For the first time funding was granted to Tolka Park, Dalymount Park, the Showgrounds, Buckley Park, Turner's Cross and Finn Park. All of those were funded in a single year. I will do the same next year. There are 75 national sporting organisations in this country—

Mr. Allen

The Minister refused funding to 1,400 clubs.

Dr. McDaid

—and the FAI received 17% of that application. None of the national lottery funding we are continuing to give out – we gave £20 million last year – will be interfered with as a result of the allocation to Stadium Ireland.

Mr. Allen

It will not be dramatically increased either.

Dr. McDaid

Money is not necessarily the problem. Last year the Government allocated £20 million.

Mr. Allen

The Minister should tell that to the 1,400 clubs that were refused funding.

Dr. McDaid

Unfortunately, because of the pace of our economic success many of those clubs were unable to get builders or developers to work on their sites and I was able to hand out only between £6 million and £7 million. We handed back nearly £8 million because work could not be started on approved projects. If there is a difficulty in spending £20 million, how will developers be got for a project worth £200 million?

Mr. Allen

The Minister does not understand the nature of sports clubs.

Mr. Farrelly

There is a reason for this.

Mr. S. Ryan

Was there a carry-over facility?

Dr. McDaid

The money is there for all those clubs. I remind Deputies that projects funded by last year's £20 million must be started by the date of notification of the last grant. Otherwise the sunset clause will come into effect and grants will be lost.

Mr. Currie

If the Minister gives money to Sarsfield's that will not happen.

Dr. McDaid

The Government was trying to lift the burden of having to provide their own stadiums from our national sporting organisations so that their hard won resources would be invested in their clubs and in elements of their organisations.

Mr. Allen

The FAI was not involved. It was not even asked.

Dr. McDaid

This applies to all national sporting organisations. That is what we were trying to do and what we will continue to do.

Mr. Allen

That is rubbish and the Minister knows it.

Dr. McDaid

I know that not all the Opposition parties are opposed to this measure but I have a question for those who are opposed to the proposed stadium. Are they saying the Ireland of the 21st century is not sufficiently developed, economically sound enough—

Mr. Allen

The Minister should get off his soap box. We have Croke Park, Eircom Park, Lansdowne Road and Morton Stadium.

Dr. McDaid

—or capable of sustaining and enjoying a sports facility as the dramatically changing development of sport speeds through the beginning of this century? That is what opposition to this project means.

Mr. Currie

We do not have an inferiority complex.

Mr. Farrelly

The Government's proposal will place an enormous cost on the taxpayer.

Acting Chairman

Amendment No. 2 has been moved by Deputy Allen. Amendment No. 1 in the name of the Labour Party cannot be moved until Deputy Allen's amendment has been disposed of.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. O'Shea

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

Dáil Éireann notes:

(i)the content of the PricewaterhouseCoopers feasibility study "A Stadium for the New Millennium" and the decision of the Government to proceed with planning for the development of Sports Campus Ireland and Stadium Ireland;

(ii)that the development of Croke Park by the GAA is proceeding apace and that the FAI have plans well advanced for the construction of Eircom Park;

–believes that it is desirable that there should be the maximum degree of co-operation possible between sporting organisations in regard to the provision of facilities at national level in order to avoid unnecessary duplication and possible waste of taxpayers' money;

–notes that the recommendation of the steering committee to proceed with the project is subject to a number of conditions;

(i)arrangements being made with the National Governing Bodies of Sports such that a minimum case for meeting the operational costs is fulfilled;

(ii)a satisfactory guarantee being in place for a private donation of £50 million; and

calls on the Government, pending a final decision on the matter by Dáil Éireann, to provide additional information in regard to its discussions with the National Sporting Bodies and the promise of a private donation of £50 million.

Does the Minister accept the Labour Party amendment?

Mr. S. Ryan

He indicated earlier that he might.

Dr. McDaid

I accept the amendment in general. However, I cannot accept the final paragraph which calls on Dáil Éireann, pending a final decision on the matter by Dáil Éireann, to provide additional information in regard to its discussions with the national sporting bodies and the promise of a private donation of £50 million. Nor can I accept the wording, "Dáil Éireann notes.". My motion reads, "That Dáil Éireann supports.".

I hope the House will support my motion. I have given a guarantee that the questions raised by the Labour Party will be addressed. As the amendment is worded, I cannot accept it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put and declared carried.