Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2000

Vol. 526 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 20f2>a, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates, Votes 10 and 44; No. 20f2>b, motion re referral of Supplementary Estimates, Votes 10 and 44, to select committee; No. 44, Teaching Council Bill, 2000 – Second Stage resumed; No. 45, Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Second Stage, resumed; and No. 7, Youth Work Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 20f2>a, leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates, Votes 10 and 44, and, subject to the agreement of No. 20f2>a, No. 20f2>b shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded on Nos. 20f2>a and 20f2>b shall be taken forthwith. Private Members' Business shall be No. 104, motion re public transport, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the Supplementary Estimates agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

No, not on the merits of the case but because the Government is functioning, as far as transport is concerned, on the basis of announcements but no delivery. It is a Government of announcements and public relations, not delivery. I asked the Taoiseach in the House last week if he had any sense of the anger people are feeling about traffic problems in this and other cities. He did not answer and the situation is worse this week. Traffic is moving at a snail's pace in Dublin and the seed bed from which this snail is generated is Government Buildings.

Mr. Cowen

L'Escargot.

Mr. J. Bruton

L'Escargot was a winner. The Deputy most likely won quite a bit of money on L'Escargot.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Cowen

He won more than 40% of his races.

Mr. Belton

L'Escargot was a good horse.

Mr. J. Bruton

Deputy Cowen is not in form at all this morning. He is all volume and no substance.

Mr. Sheehan

The Minister knows nothing about it. He spends more time in airplanes than in Dublin.

Mr. Cowen

It is lucky for the Deputy that I do.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Quinn

I am sure the many households where both spouses must go out to work to service the mortgage because of house prices will find this exchange with the Minister for Foreign Affairs very amusing.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy should have a sense of humour.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister has a State car which does not get stuck in traffic.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy can throw the brickbats but he cannot take them.

Mr. Quinn

This side of the House is trying to convey to an indifferent and arrogant Government the sense of crisis people feel about the deterioration in their quality of life because of industrial disputes that are not being addressed. I sought to have this matter properly debated under the orders of the House but the Chair in his wisdom did not permit it. We have no other way of registering our protest but to refuse to accept the Order of Business today.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Supplementary Estimates be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.

Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.

Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic. McDowell, Derek.

Níl–continued

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.

Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sheehan, Patrick.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton

I seek information on the delay with the North-South pipeline because of the levy the Government proposes to introduce. This is seen by private operators who wish to open a pipeline bringing gas to the South and to introduce competition into gas distribution as unfair competition and an attempt to preserve a State monopoly. I raised this matter with the Taoiseach some time ago and this morning the matter has become public. There is opposition to the Government from people as diverse as Reg Empey of the Ulster Unionists and Pat Doherty of Sinn Féin. They are agreed that this proposed levy is anti-competitive.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Bruton raised this matter with me some weeks ago and I took it up with both the Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, and with BGE. There are ongoing discussions and it is not as simple a case as has been put by one side, though there are many advantages in trying to resolve this. I have indicated that I would like the matter to be resolved but it is not as easy as waiving the levy, which is the core of the issue. On the other side, this company is making a large investment. However, we are seeking a resolution.

Mr. J. Bruton

Does the Taoiseach agree that this is an illustration that if we are to have a genuine all-Ireland energy policy, as we wish under the Good Friday Agreement, it means that entrenched positions on this side of the Border, such as that of Bord Gáis, may have to be changed? The reluctance on the part of existing institutions to recognise that we are now operating under the Good Friday Agreement rather than under previous autonomous 26-county considerations has led to this.

The Taoiseach

The Government is looking at this. It is not a question of an all-Ireland situation; it is a question of what is or is not a good commercial deal. There are also concerns within Northern Ireland about what precisely will happen as opposed to what has been stated as happening. I cannot comment on those matters or the arguments of others. For our part we are endeavouring to find a resolution.

Mr. Quinn

At the outset I welcome the Tánaiste back into the House for the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

She was here yesterday.

Mr. Quinn

I will address my remarks, through the Chair, to the Taoiseach but really to the Department that still has responsibility for industrial relations. On the current situation with regard to industrial relations breakdown across a range of sectors, will the Taoiseach indicate if there are any emergency legislative proposals, administrative actions or ministerial interventions contemplated that would bring some sense of order to this chaos and some sense of confidence to the public at large who are looking at a most extraordinary deterioration in industrial relations, one we have not witnessed since the mid-1980s?

An Ceann Comhairle

On promised legislation. A priority question has been tabled for today—

Mr. Quinn

That is a great relief.

An Ceann Comhairle

—on the same subject.

The Taoiseach

There is no promised legislation but, of course, the machinery of the State, the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court, are already provided for in legislation—

Mr. Farrelly

All stopped.

The Taoiseach

—and, hopefully, that machinery, which is being used extensively these days, will, as it did yesterday, successfully resolve a number of disputes.

Mr. Farrelly

They have all stopped.

The Taoiseach

I congratulate them on the work they did in the Aer Lingus clerical dispute and a number of other disputes.

Mr. Howlin

We have never had such chaos.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Quinn and I ask him to bear in mind that we cannot anticipate the priority question.

Mr. Quinn

I appreciate that, Sir, but does the Taoiseach accept that there is a serious problem across a variety of sectors and that the machinery to which he has made reference is not working as efficiently or effectively as it should? Does he have any proposals in that respect to improve or to consult with the people responsible for our industrial relations conflict resolution machinery so as to bring some order and stability back into the system because it clearly is not there at present?

The Taoiseach

There is certainly some validity in that because last week we had a situation where a Labour Court recommendation was turned down 24 hours before it was announced. That is not very efficient, but as far as the machinery that is necessary is concerned, the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court are working flat out in that regard. All the conciliation officers and the members of the court are working very hard but it is regrettable that in many instances workers or their representatives are not giving due regard to the recommendations that are being made. I have had discussions on a number of these issues with the leadership of the trade unions and employers.

A Deputy

With poor results.

The Taoiseach

We will continue to do that. I acknowledge the fact that a number of the more serious issues have been resolved.

On the rail case to which the Deputy has adverted, there have been extensive discussions over the past six months but the Labour Court recommendations were rejected. New offers were made but they were rejected also. I understand both sides have again called on the court to assist them so hopefully those matters will continue to be dealt with in the appropriate place.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach not agree that the problem in CIE—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, we cannot have a prolonged debate on this issue. There is a priority question on this matter on today's Order Paper and there will be a one and a half hour debate tonight in Private Members' time.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach not agree that there is a political dimension to this issue in that when the CIE board found, as soon as this Government came into office, that the Minister started to interfere selectively in its industrial relations to garner popularity for herself, as she thought, that undermined the authority of the board and its negotiating capacity and undermined the faith of the unions in any agreements that were made? Will the Taoiseach agree there is a political accountability on the part of the Government and that he cannot, as he is so good at doing, shake it off? Every problem is somebody else's problem. No problem is his problem. The Taoiseach should remember that he is the Taoiseach. He is in charge and these are all State owned enterprises that are paralysed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Quinn and then the Taoiseach for his final comment on the matter.

Mr. Quinn

The exchange we are having now demonstrates the sense of absolute frustration and outrage of the public with regard to the delivery of services for which this Government is responsible and is so manifestly failing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy put his question, please?

Mr. Quinn

I will put the question in another way to be in order because you have to administer the rules of the archaic institution. When will the package of legislation and reform measures, which has been promised on so many occasions, be introduced by the Government Chief Whip and Minister of State to enable this House to debate the sort of issues that are on the minds and in the mouths of ordinary citizens outside this House? You have ruled, Sir, that we cannot discuss the one issue that has brought this city to a standstill.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business and I have allowed a lot of latitude.

Mr. Quinn

I appreciate that. When will we be able to have proper and meaningful discussions on problems that are affecting people's lives as we speak?

Mr. Wall

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on the Taoiseach to make his final reply.

Mr. Wall

—can I ask a relevant question?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the Deputy cannot intervene. This matter is confined to the leaders of the two main parties.

Mr. Wall

It is on the same matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

No other Deputy can intervene. I have made it clear on numerous occasions, as late as last week, that on these matters raised by the party leaders, no other Deputy can intervene.

Mr. Belton

You are wrong, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies will have plenty of time this evening to discuss them.

Mr. Belton

We are all elected. There are no rules on that, a Cheann Comhairle. You are wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are rules on the Order of Business and I will suspend the Order of Business if I am challenged.

Mr. Belton

Members are also entitled to speak on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Ceann Comhairle is entitled to conclude the Order of Business and that is exactly what I will do.

The Taoiseach

By way of a final reply, the argument here normally was that Ministers should not intervene. When I was Minister for Labour it was always an issue that I should not intervene in disputes. These Houses argue that we should set up proper machinery. The Labour Court Act, 1946 was amended and strengthened. The Labour Relations Commission was set up, and there is an extensive service involved in that. Deputy Bruton is wrong in regard to this case. The strike involving 130 people in Iarnród Éireann planned for today and tomorrow is in pursuit of a pay deal for working conditions. They have been the subject of six months of extensive talks under the auspices of the Labour Relations Commission. They have also been the subject of a Labour Court recommendation. The legislation, the powers and the staff are available to continue to deal with these issues and they should be dealt with.

In relation to the question asked by Deputy Quinn, he would know because there was no better Minister for Labour than himself for saying that this House should not get involved in industrial relations disputes, but matters have moved on. The House is far more modern and not so protective as it was then but I am glad to answer these issues. I hope the other issues will be discussed by the reform committee as soon as possible.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Taoiseach join me in expressing the concern that I believe is shared by all Members of the House at the sentence imposed in the horrific McKenna case yesterday?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

Since there are legislative measures—

An Ceann Comhairle

If the House is not going to proceed to the Order of Business proper, I will suspend the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

Can I finish the sentence?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has not been in order up to now.

Mr. Howlin

Since there are legislative measures in effect to allow the sentence to be appealed, will the views of the House at least be expressed on this horrific case?

The Taoiseach

I cannot comment on that case. It is a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Mr. Rabbitte

All our offices are getting telephone calls about the compensation package. Will the Taoiseach advise us, as soon as he has concluded negotiations with Deputy Callely and Deputy Noel Ahern—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

It is promised legislation.

Mr. Howlin

Legislation was promised last night.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can put his question on promised legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

There is legislation promised on this matter and the House is entitled to know it as early as the negotiations are finished with Deputy Callely and Deputy Noel Ahern. On the second matter, which relates to the legislation promised in respect of Dáil reform, a priority question of mine concerning the future of 650 jobs at Irish Biscuits, Jacobs, was wantonly transferred by the Minister responsible, the Tánaiste, to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development—

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development has as much responsibility for this issue as he does for Tallaght hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Sargent on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

A total of 650 jobs are at issue. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has come into the House for the first time in about five weeks—

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

The question has been wantonly transferred.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, when will this House be allowed to put relevant questions of the day to the people with responsibility?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow the Taoiseach to answer regarding legislation.

Mr. Belton

The Taoiseach should give an answer about something.

The Taoiseach

There is legislation regarding this issue. Yesterday the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, said the matter will be dealt with in the Finance Bill. The issue will be dealt with in the same way as any business person's asset which suffers depreciation in value, whereby the individual would be able to write off the depreciation against his or her tax liability either going backwards or forwards. The details will be worked out in the course of the Finance Bill.

Mr. Farrelly

What if a person has no tax liability?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Sargent.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, I wish to ask for your guidance.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Sargent. Deputy Rabbitte should allow Deputy Sargent to put his question. We cannot have a debate.

Mr. Rabbitte

How may I raise in this Chamber the question of the future of Irish Biscuits and 650 jobs?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Order of Business. I call Deputy Sargent.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is a matter for 650 people and I am asking for your guidance.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow Deputy Sargent to ask his question.

Mr. Rabbitte

What mechanism is open to me which would allow the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to answer this question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat and allow Deputy Sargent to ask his question on the Order of Business. Deputy Sargent is in possession.

Mr. Quinn

Why was the question transferred?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is concluded. We now move on to No. 20a motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates, Votes 10 and 44. I call the Minister.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Rabbitte

Why did the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment transfer the question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled and the Deputy is completely out of order. The Order of Business is concluded. I suspend the sitting for 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.28 a.m.

Mr. Farrelly

I had my name down to ask a relevant question on the Order of Business. Will I be allowed to do so?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. The Order of Business is over.

Mr. Farrelly

When can I do so?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will not tolerate any more disorder.

Mr. Farrelly

It is not disorder.

An Ceann Comhairle

I forewarn the Deputy now. We are proceeding with the business.

Mr. Farrelly

There are thousands of family farmers—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Mr. Farrelly

I want to raise a matter in the House this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is completely out of order and must resume his seat. If he does not do so, I will be obliged to take a particular course of action.

Mr. Farrelly

I indicated that I wanted to ask a question on the Order of Business and I was not given an opportunity to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the Chair's fault.

Mr. Farrelly

It is not my fault either. I should not be blamed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Mr. Farrelly

I want to raise an issue on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is totally out of order. He must resume his seat or leave the House.

Mr. Farrelly

I will leave the House in protest. There are thousands of farmers—

An Ceann Comhairle

I move: "That Deputy Farrelly be suspended from the service of the Dáil."

As the Deputy has left the Chamber, I will withdraw the question and we will proceed with the order of the day.