John Bruton
Ceist:5 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the preparatory meetings he will have here before the visit of President Clinton; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28248/00]
Ceisteanna–Questions. - Visit by American President.
John Bruton
Ceist:6 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the proposed visit of President Clinton here. [28249/00]
John Bruton
Ceist:7 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the communications he has had with the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr. Chretien, following his recent victory in the Canadian general election; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28383/00]
Ruairí Quinn
Ceist:8 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the likely agenda for any talks he will have with President Clinton during his visit here later in December 2000; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28396/00]
Joe Higgins
Ceist:9 Mr. Higgins (Dublin West) asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the President of the United States regarding his forthcoming visit. [28418/00]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 9, inclusive, together.
The White House announced last week that President Clinton will visit Ireland, North and South, for a third time beginning on 12 December 2000. The Government warmly welcomes President Clinton's visit which symbolises the close and friendly relations between Ireland and the United States. The programme has not yet been finalised, but the President will hold discussions with President McAleese and me followed by a programme of events in Dublin and Dundalk next Tuesday.
In our talks I will take the opportunity to thank President Clinton for his immense contribution to the peace process in Northern Ireland. We will also focus on our continuing efforts to implement all aspects of the Good Friday Agreement and on further deepening the relationships between Ireland and the United States.
Officials from my Department, the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Garda Síochána and other Departments and agencies will work closely with the US advance team and officials from the United States Embassy up to and during the President's visit.
I sent a letter of congratulations to the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr. Jean Chretien, on his successful re-election last week.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the first visit by President Clinton to Ireland and Britain was crucial in launching the twin-track process by John Major and me which ultimately resulted in the Good Friday Agreement and overcoming Washingon III? Will the Taoiseach agree that this third visit by President Clinton is an opportunity to clear up a range of issues that potentially endanger the Good Friday Agreement if they are not resolved? They include decommissioning, policing, demilitarisation and the boycott on North South participation imposed by the Unionist leadership on Sinn Féin. Will the Taoiseach also agree it is important that the next few days are used in whatever format is most appropriate – be it a round table or bilateral format; my own preference is for round table – to get these issues brought to a point where President Clinton has a basis for assisting their resolution by his presence here?
I agree. We have spent several weeks, particularly since the last Saturday in October and the Ulster Unionist meeting, trying to resolve issues that arose from that conference as well as issues that have been around for some time which gave rise to what came out of that conference, and trying to build on the basis of the statements of 5 and 6 May and the re-establishment of the institutions. The issues are, as the Deputy said, policing, full implementation of the Patten report in so far as that can be achieved, demilitarisation, decommissioning, other related issues and the proper operation of the institutions following the Unionist decision on the last weekend in October.
President Clinton told me in the first week of September that he would visit in Christmas week and he will honour that commitment, even though the visit is during the last couple of weeks in December and he is busily engaged in finalising other issues. However, he has made some days available to visit here and the North and to meet the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, at Chequers. Over recent weeks we have been trying to get the parties to move on a number of the issues. We must try to bring the Patten proposals to a conclusion and get an understanding on the other issues. There have been statements from some groups in recent days restating their positions.
Last night the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and the Secretary of State, Mr. Mandelson, had a long and useful meeting to finalise as many of these issues as possible. My senior officials are at 10 Downing Street today, again trying to come to conclusions. To be frank, there is not much writing up on the issues but in so far as they need to be written up, they are doing that. With regard to the channels of communication, it would be good if it could be done bilaterally or in a round table format but that is not feasible for one reason or another and through no fault of ours. It has to be done bilaterally with the groups. We are endeavouring to do that and, as always, to get enough understanding and commitments from everybody to reach successful conclusions and, if not, at least to have it at such a stage that the discussions President Clinton will have with everybody will be conducted in such a way that he can help us. He is anxious to do that and to encourage people to move a step further and stretch themselves so conclusion can be reached on these issues.
Aside from that, it is dangerous to let the Christmas period pass without achieving this. Otherwise, in January we will be faced with the inevitable Ulster Unionist Council petition and we will be back on the merry-go-round again. I cannot think of one good reason for not doing this now.
I agree with the Taoiseach. However, why did the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, the First Minister, Mr. Trimble, and the Deputy First Minister, Mr. Mallon, not launch a round table talks process lasting for a period of ten days, for example, in the run up to President Clinton's visit so all these issues could be thrashed out and, if possible, a package put together? Will the Taoiseach not agree that we will only make progress on the basis of a package? Will he not further agree that the experience of bilateral meetings last May was particularly bad? Sinn Féin claimed on the one hand that it was given assurances by the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, which the Prime Minister either said he did not give or could not legally have given. This has caused bad faith accusations to be traded, which is causing no end of problems at present.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that it is necessary at this stage to get everybody into the same room? We owe it to President Clinton to make every effort not to talk about bilaterals but to get everybody into the same room, even if it is only for two or three days before the President arrives, and try to solve the problem. If this continues into January and a new UUP council, we will not get anywhere.
Will the Taoiseach agree that on this occasion Sinn Féin should place itself in a position where it will be able to talk as a plenipotentiary on behalf of the Republican movement rather than give undertakings, like it did on Good Friday with regard to decommissioning, which are then repudiated by the IRA? The mistake of Irish history, which was made in 1921 and 1922, of sending people to negotiate who did not have the power to do so should not be repeated. It is at the heart of our current difficulty.
Sinn Féin's assurances on decommissioning have not been lived up to by the IRA because the IRA claims it was not part of the agreement. Will the Taoiseach not agree that on this occasion we owe it to President Clinton to ask the republican movement and the loyalists to give their political party leaders a mandate to negotiate on arms, get the best deal they can and deal with the matter once and for all? If this issue drifts into January, and the Taoiseach does not disagree, I am afraid that we are facing a difficult situation which would mean that the Taoiseach's work, my work and the work done by John Major, Tony Blair and Dick Spring could be washed away in a welter of recrimination.
Some of what Deputy Bruton said is common knowledge. With regard to his questions, I do not agree that the May series of bilateral and round table meetings were unproductive. I would argue strongly to the contrary. From 11 February all the institutions were suspended. What was achieved in May was the re-establishment of those institutions and they have worked extremely well, notwithstanding the one difficulty that still exists.
In all these sessions there are arguments about the interpretation of what can and cannot be done. I will not go into that; I know both sides of the arguments and the recital of the issues does not help. However, the same recital is made when there are round table meetings so what was set down in May was useful. In May there were understandings on demilitarisation, some of which has taken place and some of which was not possible for good and not so good reasons. On the other side of the issue, we received the clear words of the IRA the day after those talks, that it believed that for the process to reach a conclusion the issue of arms, disarmament and putting arms permanently beyond use had to be dealt with. That has been restated in the past 24 hours and it comes directly from those discussions.
If putting Seamus Mallon, Tony Blair, Bertie Ahern and David Trimble into one room could have solved this problem, it would have been long solved. We have spent more time in the same room than I care to remember. Unfortunately, it is not much use because neither Seamus Mallon nor David Trimble control IRA arms. They can add nothing to decommissioning aside from stating their positions. Seamus Mallon, David Trimble and I can do nothing about demilitarisation either. It is a matter for the British Government alone. I can add nothing to it other than put the cases of Northern Nationalists, both republican and members of the SDLP. As far as arms are concerned, Seamus Mallon, David Trimble, Tony Blair and I cannot do anything. It is a matter for the Provisional IRA and the other groups that have them. All we can do is collectively urge them to commit themselves to what happened in May.
There is no disagreement between the British Government and the Irish Government or between Seamus Mallon and David Trimble on what we believe could resolve some of these issues. I assure Deputy Bruton there is not disagreement between the British Government and ourselves or Seamus Mallon and David Trimble on what we think could resolve some of these issues. There would be some difficulty, perhaps, on how to solve problems with regard to things like flags and emblems. However, there are not enormous difficulties on these issues. The arguments and the positions are well known and over the next few days we should try to get some movement. That is what we have been trying to do in recent months on the basis that we knew President Clinton would come. However, even if he did not come, we would try to get some movement and we will continue to do that.
(Dublin West): Does the Taoiseach agree that in deciding to welcome heads of government to this State, account should be taken of their record on human rights and commitment to justice in their own countries and internationally? Does he believe that Mr. Clinton should be welcomed as a peacemaker and is he convinced of President Clinton's effectiveness in regard to taking the gun out of Irish politics, when the president presides over the biggest arms manufacturing business on the globe and actively presides over the sale of horrendous weapons of destruction world wide including to regimes which routinely repress and torture their own people and outlaw political dissent?
A question please.
(Dublin West): Does the Taoiseach think it appropriate that Mr. Clinton should be welcomed as a peacemaker between divided communities when he continues to preside over an execution regime in the United States that successive studies have shown to be manifestly unjust and patently racially biased, discriminating heavily against the African-American community and others and where 90% of defendants—
President Clinton has done more than most to mitigate those problems, to be fair.
A brief question.
(Dublin West): In fact, he has added another 58 categories of federal offence—
The Deputy should not make a statement. A brief question.
Vice-President Al Gore was in favour of stronger gun controls.
(Dublin West): President Clinton oversaw the execution of a mentally handicapped—
Please, Deputy Higgins – I call the Taoiseach.
He did not oversee the execution of anybody.
When people are invited here, they are invited and their track record is taken into account. The vast majority of Irish people believe that President Clinton, for eight years and long before that, has done more than probably anybody else in the world to try to bring world peace, regional peace and peace to this country. For that reason, I am sure Irish people will make him more than welcome once again.
The vast majority of people would welcome President Clinton back to Ireland. The Taoiseach will agree that of all recent American presidents, he has been the most constructive and helpful to this State in resolving our difficulties and in giving economic help. On the visit, will the Taoiseach give some specific details about the intinerary, where he is to go and who he is meet, if that has been worked out yet? In relation to the input he has had in Northern Ireland and to political affairs in this island as a whole, does the Taoiseach agree that we have often been too dependent on his intervention? Since he will not be in office beyond January next is it incumbent on ourselves now to resolve the outstanding matters and can he tell the House specifically what mechanisms are being employed? Perhaps the meeting last night between the Secretary of State Mr. Mandelson and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, was part of the process but specifically what processes are at work to address and resolve the outstanding issues before the visit of President Clinton to Ireland next week?
The advance parties are here because of the lateness in the final arrangements with President Clinton effectively arriving at Christmas time. He will fit in as much as he can. He will be here on Tuesday, coming here in the early morning around breakfast time and finishing in Dundalk late that night. Then he will spend most of Wednesday in Northern Ireland. However, there are many gaps to be filled in.
Will he come to the House?
No, but whatever reception we have, we will make sure Members of the House are invited to it. The advance party, as always, is looking at the various venues, and the suitability and other matters. We want to try to involve as many people as possible, and President Clinton is anxious to involve as many people as he can. It is his third visit and the time will be short. He will spend Wednesday in Northern Ireland, mostly in consultation with the parties and the various groupings in Northern Ireland.
The issues to be considered and which have been raised continuously for the past 18 months include the Patten report – the legislation is now passed and has received the royal decree; what will happen with the badge or emblems and with the implementation plan; whether Gough Barracks will close; whether the CID and the Special Branch are to be amalgamated; whether the Reserve is to be disbanded and if so, when and demilitarisation. We must consider how they will be dealt with – particularly south Armagh, where there has not been any movement – and whether the Provisional IRA will put a meaningful interpretation in consultation with General de Chastelain on putting arms beyond use on a permanent basis.
The process—
It will be conducted directly between the two governments and the two parties to see if we can conclude on those issues.
(Dublin West): Any time for Deputy Spring?
When the Taoiseach welcomes President Clinton, can he be assured he does so on behalf of the great majority of the Irish people, North and South, except for the odd sorehead? That is the universal view.
The Deputy should wake up and look at the reality.
When the Taoiseach is using the channels of communication to which he referred in advance of the visit, in addition to raising the very important matters relating to the Patten report and to demilitarisation, would he bring to the attention of the appropriate authorities and would he demand that something be done to stop the dreadful violence and intimidation in Larne, County Antrim motivated by sectarianism? Does he agree that he has received a dossier recently from Danny O'Connor, the SDLP Assembly member who has also met the Minister for Foreign Affairs and that what is happening there in terms of sectarianism—
We have run out of time.
—should be stamped out before lives are lost in that town.
Before the Taoiseach replies, a brief supplementary from Deputy Bruton.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the case for the dismantling of security apparatus in south Armagh would be greatly assisted if incidents such as the shooting in the legs by the Provisional IRA of Malachy Maguire in south Armagh would cease? Does the Taoiseach not agree that the use of firearms in punishments is technically at least, a breach of the ceasefire because weapons are being fired? Does the Taoiseach agree that one outcome of President Clinton's visit which would be most welcome would be an undertaking from both loyalist and republican paramilitaries that punishment beatings and shootings and other such actions designed either to intimidate people of a different religion or to require those with the same religion and political allegiance to continue to co-operate with criminal activities of the paramilitary in question should stop?
Final reply from The Taoiseach.
(Dublin West): And the slaughter of Kurdish people with US weapons—
Please allow the Taoiseach to reply.
Regarding Larne, we have received a report and have received a number of deputations from the people in Larne including the Assembly member from Larne who has put his case very forcibly. What is happening there is deplorable. We have raised their case, not just in the recent meetings, but particularly over the past 18 months. From early summer last year, the situation in Larne has been extremely difficult and there is a group which has been involved in extreme intimidation of Nationalist people. Its members have threatened local elected representatives and generally made life extremely difficult for people who attempt to represent Nationalists.
There are other issues to be considered in regard to punishment beatings. However, I believe clear, unequivocal statements should be issued to the effect that any kind of punishment beatings or actions, not to mention armed killings, should cease. There are people who can con trol the incidence of these actions, although it may not be possible to control them completely. Punishment actions of any kind should cease completely. When a concerted effort is made to persuade people to desist from these actions, the situation improves for a while but then drifts back to its former state. We really need to reach a position where people cannot decide to take somebody out every once in a while.
Do punishment beatings constitute a breach of the ceasefire?
I believe that any such actions technically constitute a breach of the ceasefire but Deputy Bruton will be aware that these punishment beatings are carried out under other names and by other groups. It is not possible to get a clear view of these matters and the Chief Constable is unable—
The weapons can be traced.
We cannot debate the matter.
The gun used in the shootings last year was clean and that does not help. It seems that these punishment beatings are carried out on behalf of people who should be able to use their influence to put a stop to them. That is what we continually call on them to do. If we are to achieve a final package, it will be necessary for a clear unambiguous statement that these kind of actions will cease for good to be issued. Otherwise, such actions will continue in the affected communities.
That concludes Taoiseach's Questions; we now move on to Priority Questions to the Minister for Defence.