I will call on the Deputies who tabled questions to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the order in which they submitted their questions to my office.
Private Notice Questions. - Crime in Limerick.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to outline the steps the Government intends to take to deal with the serious escalation in gangland crime that has, within the past week, seen the murder of three men, the serious wounding of another and the abduction of two men; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when his attention was drawn to the violent conflict between families in Limerick; the steps he proposes to take to end this conflict; and if he has satisfied himself with the level of resources and manpower available to the Garda Síochána in Limerick.
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to outline the steps the Government intends to take to deal with the serious escalation of criminal violence in Limerick within the past week that has seen the murder of a man, the serious wounding of another and the reported abduction of two men; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take all the questions together.
I am informed by the Garda Síochána that, following an initial call received by ambulance control, gardaí from Roxborough Road Garda station in Limerick went to a place known as Lickadoon, Drombanna, situated three miles south of Limerick city. There, along the side of a quiet country road, they found the body of a male whom they recognised as Ciaran Keane of Greenhills Road, Garryowen, County Limerick, born 3 June 1966. His hands had been bound behind his back and he had gunshot wounds to his head. Gardaí then established that a man known as Owen Treacy of 96, St. Munchin's Street, born 1972, had called to a local house in the area nearby, suffering from multiple stab wounds to his upper body. His hands were also bound with tape. He was removed to Limerick Regional Hospital where he is being treated for his injuries. He has multiple stab wounds to his upper body as well as a punctured lung and a deep wound to his neck. I understand his injuries are not life-threatening. Subsequently, Ciaran Keane's car was found at Fairgreen in Limerick and has been preserved for technical examination, as has a private house.
During the course of the night gardaí in Portlaoise Garda station received a 999 call shortly after 3 a.m. from a male person claiming to be one of the Ryans from Limerick. Gardaí from Portlaoise went to an area outside the town, and there they met two brothers, Kieran and Eddie Ryan. They were taken to Portlaoise Garda station and the Ryan family was notified subsequently by gardaí at Portlaoise. Both were taken subsequently to Henry Street Garda station in Limerick by gardaí from that station. Gardaí carried out inquiries and a series of searches during the night and these have led to the arrest of two persons, both under section 30 of the Offences against the State Act. That is the current position as I have been informed by the Garda Síochána.
Recent activities in Limerick and Dublin resulting in the violent deaths of three men are a matter of serious public concern. I very much share that concern, as do all Members of this House. The outrages in question have been notable in particular for their brutality and inhumanity. The abduction and detention of the two young men from Limerick to whom I have just referred, allied to the suffering caused to their immediate family, is totally unacceptable in a civilised society and I will not tolerate it. It is a matter of relief for their family, all humane persons and Deputies in this House that these two young men have returned unharmed. That relief is, however, tempered and put in perspective by the fact that one man was brutally murdered overnight while another was seriously injured in the manner I have described.
There have been violent crimes of a similar nature in Dublin over the past week, which have resulted in two deaths, more grieving families and a heightened sense of concern among the community at large about crime. I met with Commissioner Patrick Byrne and Deputy Commissioner Noel Conroy of the Garda this morning to discuss these recent criminal outrages. I had been in contact with them before, but this morning I had a lengthy meeting. The preliminary indications are that some of these criminal offences come within the category of what is called organised criminal activity, gangland or group activity, although these are terms which are not used by the Garda generally speaking to categorise individual offences. Having spoken with the Garda, I am absolutely satisfied that the necessary resources are being directed toward the containment and detection of these crimes and this pattern of offences. I have confirmed to the Garda my willingness to pursue any other measures which would assist it in addressing any problems.
Terminology such as "gangland killing", "organised crime" and "group crime" is widely used by the media and others to refer to the nature of crimes such as those perpetrated in the last week. This is understandable, but it does not correspond to the manner in which the Garda classifies crime. All murders and violent crimes are subject to detailed investigation regardless of the circumstances in which they occurred. In that context, just as nobody is above the law, nobody is beneath the law. The fact that a person may or may not be a member of or associated with a group or organisation in any community either in Dublin or anywhere else does not mean his or her life is cheaper in the eyes of the law or that the gravity of any offence committed against him or her is lessened.
It is the world-wide experience of crimes linked to organised criminal activity that it is notoriously difficult to bring perpetrators to justice. However, on the basis of the full and detailed briefing I received from the Garda this morning, I can say that significant progress is being made in these cases. Persons have been arrested in connection with Garda investigations in Limerick. Indeed, persons are already before the courts facing serious charges arising from some of the present criminal activities. In these circumstances, Deputies will understand that I do not wish to comment in any way on the specific detail of Garda investigations into the recent incidents lest I prejudice their successful outcome or a subsequent prosecution or trial. I am determined that criminal activity of the type recently seen will be tackled with all the resources and all the capacity at the State's disposal.
The Garda has already taken specific additional measures in the Limerick area and will continue to take a proactive approach to ensure that all such outrages are prevented, detected and punished to the greatest possible extent. I have huge faith in Chief Superintendent Kelly who is in charge of the Garda in Limerick. He is a man of great capacity. I met him recently, prior to these most recent events and in the wake of the heinous killing of Brian Fitzgerald. I had an in-depth discussion with him about the problems he faces in Limerick. Equally, I have much faith in Assistant Commissioner Culligan who has travelled to Limerick today and who has deployed in the Limerick area armed detectives from the Cork division. These are matched by the emergency response unit elements who travelled from Dublin in the early hours of this morning to be on duty in Limerick to prevent any further crime.
We have all witnessed the scenario of the last week during which a city in fear and horror was almost held to ransom by criminal elements. It is with a sense of relief that we see the two young brothers are free and have returned home safe and apparently healthy. Another callous murder has taken place and the feuding continues.
The latest figures show a 62% increase in homicides, approximately 30% of which were committed in Limerick and 40% in Dublin. Dublin has a worse proportionate crime rate than London and Limerick has a much worse rate again. Should this not have drawn the Minister's attention to dealing with the issue of serious violent crime, particularly homicide, long before now? There has been a record increase of 93% in the violent crime figures and that should have sounded warning bells. Does the Minister agree that there has been no policy of zero tolerance? Instead, there seemed to be a policy of maximum tolerance. When Brian Fitzgerald was killed in a very professional manner the warning lights should have flashed. He was a man who worked in security guarding against drugs coming into a nightclub. A policy should have been put in place to deal with what was clearly an escalation in violent crime in the Limerick area.
Would it not have been appropriate for the Minister to have called upon the Minister for Finance to provide the funding for the 2,000 gardaí which the Government parties promised separately in their manifestos and collectively in the programme for Government? At the last moment, the Minister announces today the recruitment of 350 gardaí already approved under the cap put in place by the Minister for Finance. That is a long way from the 2,000 gardaí required. When the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors stated there were not enough resources to deal with the problems in Limerick, the Minister should have taken action rather than listen to his Minister of State who said he was in control. He said he had contacted the Garda and found everything to be fine. The world and its mother, with the exception of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his Minister of State, knew what was happening but no action was ever taken.
We have the worst track record of violent crime in the history of the State, yet all we get from the Minister is inertia. Will the Minister indicate what he intends to do about the problem? He announced that the ERU has travelled to Limerick and that gardaí will be recruited, but what will he do to reassure the citizens of Limerick and Dublin, where there were two gangland killings already this week, that he can deal with this matter? We are told again and again that homicides are being dealt with effectively and that there is a good detection rate. Of the 62 homicides which took place last year, we are sure that eight are so-called gangland killings. I do not like to use the term either, although it is the common one employed by the media. Not one person has been charged in relation to those eight murders. Nobody is able to deal with the serious gangland assassinations which are taking place and there is effective immunity for those who commit them. They are operating with impunity and are virtually untouchable. No category of crime can be untouchable. That was the case up to the time of the Veronica Guerin murder and it is now the case in relation to drugs that millionaires are being created from the profits.
The stakes are so high that professional assassins are operating and there is a lack of willingness, ability and leadership to ensure that this category of crime is dealt with. That is my real concern. There is no blueprint, policy or particular response from the Minister or the Garda to deal with this. Until we see that those who were assassinated during the week in Dublin and the person who was assassinated in Limerick—
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
A debate is not in order. A question for the Minister, please.
Will the Minister assure the House that we will not again see lists of gangland killings of the kind that has occurred without charges and convictions? Will he also assure the House that we will be able to deal adequately with the escalating level of violent personal crime, including homicide, that is rife in the capital city and Limerick?
I am here to answer questions. I gave up counting when the Deputy had reached his 25th or 30th question. He is making a speech and in doing so depriving his fellow Members on the Opposition benches of the opportunity to ask questions. People want to have them answered.
Twenty five questions is not bad. The Minister rightly says the people want answers.
The Deputy will get them if he stops interrupting. He implied that I had only responded to the murder of Brian Fitzgerald recently, today or yesterday. That is not the case. In the immediate aftermath of that killing I was at pains to visit Limerick and receive a comprehensive briefing from the Garda on the situation relating to that offence, the pattern of crime in Limerick, the measures the Garda had been taking and their requirements. I refute the suggestion that I am only reacting to the matter after the event. The Deputy has reacted in that manner—
That is disgraceful.
The Deputy took enough time with his long speech and is still intent on preventing other Deputies from contributing.
Will the Minister give a straightforward answer?
I became fully aware of the crime problem in Limerick from Chief Superintendent Kelly who explained to me in detail the problem in areas of the city and his difficulties in dealing with specific aspects of criminality.
I agree with the Deputy that there has been a pattern of homicides in Limerick. However, the Garda has detected and arrested an unprecedented number of people and there is a high success rate in this area. It is bringing prosecutions in murder cases before the Central Criminal Court to such an extent that over the next 18 months many gardaí will be deployed in Dublin as witnesses. In view of this I am contemplating whether it would be possible or appropriate to move the Central Criminal Court to Limerick to ensure the resource problem arising from this will not reduce the strength of Garda protection in Limerick.
An additional 41 gardaí have been assigned to Limerick city since the two Government parties took office. The total number of members of the Garda Síochána has increased from 10,800 when the Deputy's party was last in office to 11,900 today. It will further increase to 12,200. The Deputy implied that I was for the first time announcing today that Garda strength would increase to this figure. That is not true. The record of the House shows that on the last occasion the Deputy was present for a debate on this issue I made it clear I would increase the recruitment level to 12,200, notwithstanding—
What are they doing?
The Deputy continues to interrupt me.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Time is running out and other Deputies have offered.
If the Deputy wants to make speeches rather than ask questions and then interrupt and prevent others from contributing, he is entitled to do so. I am answering the questions he put. On the question of resources, expenditure on the Garda Síochána will amount to €960 million compared with €600 million when the Deputy's party was last in office. I am satisfied that Limerick city—
The Minister is waffling. He should answer my questions.
It is not waffle. The Deputy is waffling. He is not even on top of his brief. He has accused me of saying things today which are not true.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Order, please. Questions will conclude in ten minutes and other Deputies have offered. It would be unfair to them if they were unable to contribute.
On a point of order, three Deputies tabled private notice questions, yet you, Sir, have given 20 minutes to one Deputy. That is not fair treatment to this side of the House.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy is wasting time because there is nothing in Standing Orders to prevent that from happening. The House has not given me the power to limit contributions.
I agree with Deputy Timmins that it is unfair, especially when Deputy Costello will not even listen to my answers because of his barracking. I am happy to give way to other Deputies.
Members on this side of the House share the Minister's genuine concern about this situation. However, during the week conflicting messages were issued by management sources, the Government and the Garda Síochána about what was happening in Limerick. A couple of days ago the Minister acknowledged there was a problem, yet the Minister of State at his Department said extra resources were not needed. The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors has stated there are not enough gardaí to respond to calls from members of the public who have been victimised. The Garda Commissioner said resources were not the problem and that sometimes better management was required. What did he mean by this? Perhaps the Minister should remind him that he is the chief manager.
The Minister referred to the concern expressed by Chief Superintendent Kelly about the serious drain of gardaí – I understand he mentioned a figure of 18 – who will have to travel to Dublin to appear before the Central Criminal Court in connection with the high number of detections. He asked that the Central Criminal Court be also situated in Limerick. In the meantime hundreds of members of the southern command are located in the Limerick area in addition to the emergency response unit.
The Minister said 41 extra gardaí have been deployed in Limerick but it is not enough. The overtime budget for the Garda Síochána has been cut from €65 million to €50 million. The overall increase in the operational budget has increased by 2% but given the inflation rate of 5% this amounts to a real cut of 3%.
There are not enough resources to address this problem. More are required to deal with the high level of crime and the extraordinary nature of it in Limerick. Surely there is now proof of this. Before the last general election the Government promised that an additional 2,000 gardaí would be recruited. The Minister has reneged on this and must be accountable when situations like this occur and the Garda representative associations make it clear they do not have the numbers on the ground. This is not rocket science. They are publicly crying out for help but not getting adequate resources. Will the Minister answer this? I am trying to approach this problem in a fair manner. Members of the public and the Garda Síochána are telling me that Garda numbers are insufficient.
The Deloitte & Touche study undertaken for the National Bureau of Crime Investigation recommended that a unit be established to deal with organised crime. The Minister referred to gangland crime. Will he implement this recommendation and ensure it co-ordinates the activities of members of the Garda Síochána?
Does the Minister consider it appropriate for the Minister of State at his Department, Deputy O'Dea, to offer to act as an intermediary with known criminals? His job is to prosecute the law as opposed to appeasing known violent criminals. Does the Minister think this has compromised Deputy O'Dea's position as a Minister of State, notwithstanding that he is a local representative?
The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, is not acting as an intermediary or as an appeaser of anybody.
He said he was.
(Interruptions).
The Members opposite start barracking as soon as I say a word. Do they want me to answer the question or not?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Please allow the Minister to reply.
The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, has, as any person of political prominence in any community would have done with regard to a situation in which it was evident that a number of people were engaging in tit-for-tat violence, offered moral leadership to the people involved to bring that to an end. He does so in his capacity as a leader of public opinion and as a Deputy for Limerick city. He does not do so in his capacity as Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
I want to get across the message in the strongest possible terms that this spiral of retaliatory violence must stop now. The assistance of anybody, be it a clergyman, a leader of a local community, a national representative or a person who can bring moral authority and experience of their local community to assist in that process, is welcome. However, there is no question of any mediation or persuasion standing between the prosecution of offences and their detection on one hand and those who would commit them on the other.
To be fair, Deputy O'Dea has never suggested that he would do a deal or in some sense compromise the activities of the Garda Síochána. On the contrary, he said he would use his position as an elected leader within his community – I assume most Deputies from Limerick would join him in this – to use whatever offices he could to dissuade whatever foolish and distorted individuals who might be tempted to further ratchet up the cycle of violence – rather than facing up to the fact that murder is a heinous crime – from doing so.
I have already said that Garda numbers have risen in Limerick. I have spoken to Chief Superintendent Kelly about the deployment of his men. He brought to my attention the problem of having gardaí attend trials in Dublin and the drain that constitutes in light of the Garda's huge and spectacular success in bringing to prosecution many persons accused of serious crimes. I am taking every step possible to ensure that the administration of justice does not suck resources away from Limerick in the way the chief superintendent fears it might.
The issue in Limerick has never been a matter of numbers. If Chief Superintendent Kelly had informed me or Commissioner Byrne that, over and above any other part of the country – Deputy Costello referred to Dublin in this regard – more gardaí must be deployed in Limerick, I would have, because resources are resources no matter where they are deployed—
Why is the ERU there?
I will deploy whatever resources are necessary to deal with a situation that exists in any part of the country.
The Minister says it is not a problem, but the ERU is in Limerick today.
The emergency response unit is there today, as the Deputy well knows, in response to a killing last night. It was deployed at a time when it appeared that a tit-for-tat spiral was going to go out of control.
So specialised resources are necessary?
The emergency response unit is a mobile force available to go to any part of the State and it does so in accordance with operational decisions taken by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. Deputy Deasy's suggestion that the commissioner is not conscious of the fact that he is in control of the Garda Síochána and responsible for its day to day management is unworthy. Commissioner Byrne fully understands his responsibilities and has to engage in a complex task of moving resources, financial and human, here and there within the country to confront the crime threat as it exists and as it changes over time.
I reiterate that I have spoken to Chief Superintendent Kelly and examined at considerable length in his company the problems Limerick faces, including the particular pattern of crime that has been prevalent there for some time, the social problems which underlie it and the extraordinary measures that have been taken on some occasions such as the sealing off entrances to estates so that there would be one checkpoint through which people entering and leaving would have to pass. These measures were described to me at great length by Chief Superintendent Kelly.
I am bringing before this House a Garda powers Bill on the understanding that the Members opposite will support me in the measures necessary to uphold the rule of law.
That is a ridiculous statement.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
We must proceed in accordance with the order of the Dáil—
I will make one last point, if I may.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
We must conclude.
I wish to ask a question.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Chair has no power to usurp the order of the Dáil.
I have not had the opportunity to speak.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
That is not the fault of the Chair.
If Deputy O'Sullivan has some complaint about the fact that she has not been able to speak, she should complain to her colleague.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
We must proceed to the Adjournment. This is not in order. The order of the Dáil was to adjourn at 4.45 p.m.
There has been no increase in Garda numbers in Limerick. We want to ask serious questions about the situation in Limerick.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Chair has no power to change the order of the House.
Two Deputies from Limerick came to the House, but neither can ask a question.
Would the Leas Cheann Comhairle be prepared to give some latitude, subject to the agreement-—
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
I cannot. The Dáil made an order today. The Deputy should resume his seat.
The House could revise its order.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The House cannot do that. Proper notice has not been given.
Am I to go back to Limerick without asking a question?
Are we to go home without answers?
I will protest at this decision.
Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.