Vol. 572 No. 3
2 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships will next meet; the number of meetings of the team planned for the remainder of 2003; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19546/03]
3 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the recent work of the NDP communications strategy group; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19567/03]
4 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the number of times the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships met in 2003; and its programme for work for the remainder of 2003. [20279/03]
5 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships. [21991/03]
6 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach when the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships last met; when the next meeting is expected to take place; if he has satisfied himself with the progress of the committee; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22161/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 6, inclusive, together.
The cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and PPPs usually meets once a month. It has met on nine occasions so far this year and it is planned to hold a further two meetings over the remainder of 2003. The most recent meeting of the team was held on 1 October, with the principal agenda item being the mid-term review of the NDP. That review, as the House will be aware, involves evaluations of the individual operational programmes and an over-arching evaluation being undertaken by the ESRI. Broadband was also discussed at the meeting. Energy policy will be considered at the next meeting of the cross-departmental team on 29 October and the following themes will be considered at the subsequent meeting in December: the national spatial strategy; ports; and Gaeltacht and the islands infrastructure. It is also envisaged that an outline work programme for 2004 will be agreed at the December meeting of the team.
Overall, the cross-departmental team has played a valuable role in advancing the infrastructure agenda set out in the national development plan. While very good progress has been made, the Government will continue to work towards improving delivery of infrastructural projects, in both time and budgetary terms.
As the House will be aware, the Cabinet committee and team are supported by an NDP communications strategy group, involving key delivery Departments and agencies. Among the key achievements and activities of the group are the establishment of an NDP-community support framework information unit under the Department of Finance to lead an information campaign; the dissemination of information on NDP investment, as required under EU regulations, through such mechanisms as regional information campaigns, a dedicated website, the NDP annual report and the In Progress newsletter launched earlier this year; the development of supplements and advertisements in the main national daily newspapers; and the commissioning of public awareness research. The communications strategy group will continue with its work over the remaining lifetime of the NDP, taking particular account of the outcome of the mid-term review process.
At the Taoiseach's recent outing in Killarney in front of ecstatic fans, including Páidí Ó Sé, he announced his latest brainchild, the national infrastructure board. This seems to have arisen out of a realisation that major projects around the country have been over cost, over budget and over time principally because of swans, snails and the occasional person hanging out of a tree in the Glen of the Downs. Why has this not appeared under the 111 items of legislation listed or heads of Bills before Government or due to be published? There is no sign of it. Has it resulted from the astonishing report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which clearly lays down the Government's inability to properly manage infrastructural projects to date, including the Luas scheme, the mad cow roundabout, the Cork School of Music and others?
Does this national infrastructure board deal only with a small number of major projects? Is it to take into account the abolition of the National Roads Authority or An Bord Pleanála, or with what sorts of projects and of what scale and magnitude will the infrastructure board deal? When are we likely to see a Bill on this matter come before the House for discussion? Is it not a fact that the time remit of the national development programme will have run out by the time the national infrastructure board, complex though it may be, sees the light of day?
The question of bringing forward a Bill to expedite the processing of projects of strategic national importance is being progressed by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We would hope to have that Bill published by Christmas and discussed in the House in the next session. Better value for money outcomes are being promoted through greater use of multiannual programming and other ways of trying to keep the capital programme in line. Over recent years, mid-term evaluations have pointed to significant parts of various projects, including Luas, being on time and within the tender price.
Plus contingency costs of course.
There can be other long-term delays on infrastructural projects. I dealt with this matter at Question Time with Deputy Kenny two weeks ago. I made my views clear then that we cannot get a mechanism to short-circuit everything. The method has to be precise and apply to major infrastructural projects which must be well documented. Not all projects can be dealt with in this way. The details will have to be set out in the terms of the legislation at which the Minister is looking. A variety of factors have created extremely costly delays. These include, as I have stated, swans, snails and people hanging out of trees, because the delays they create cost millions of euro.
The Taoiseach has been up a few trees.
Permanently.
Nothing was found.
They are issues that have to be dealt with. We will continue to do that.
The Taoiseach and I referred to this matter two weeks ago in respect of the Corrib gasfield. In his conversation with the president of Shell he indicated the legislation might arrive next year. Is it envisaged that the infrastructure board would cover projects such as incinerators or major chemical installations, or does the Taoiseach envisage it dealing with the electricity and gas grids? When the legislation is introduced, what sort of facility will there be to distinguish between crank and valid objections, be they from residents, organisations or agencies?
I do not want to, nor can I, pre-empt discussions on these issues within the Department or the Cabinet. It is designed to deal with major infrastructural issues, not small ones. We will have a number of major construction projects under way over the next number of years. Deputy Kenny has mentioned some of those. We will have to find a way of dealing with planning delays and other related issues. All of this will become apparent in the detail of the legislation.
Shell is shortly to make a decision on the Corrib gasfield. When I met its president he had heard about this legislation. Given the timescale Shell envisages, it would have to start work on this very large gasfield next summer. My advice to the president and his officials was to go ahead under the existing planning laws because there is no way the forthcoming legislation would be of benefit to them within that timetable. They were disappointed with that.
If we consider the legislation in the House after the Christmas recess and discuss it fully, it is unlikely to pass through the House until close to Easter. For Shell to begin setting up its structures at that stage would not be practical. My advice to them was that whatever decision they made, and they are talking about hundreds of millions of euro, and have already invested such amounts, they must make that decision under existing planning laws and arrangements. I know that is being discussed at the world board meeting of Shell within days.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the recent study carried out by the International Telecommunications Union which showed that this State lies 51st in a list of 73 countries in terms of broadband roll-out and Internet access? Will he agree that its report runs contrary to the continual claim by Government that we are a European hub in terms of high technology and the development of broadband and Internet access? What is being done to address the imbal ance in broadband roll-out and Internet access between east and west, between urban and rural communities and between those coping with disadvantage in their communities and everybody else? Is the Taoiseach aware that the EU Court of Justice has ruled as not permissible the Government's proposed funding of the development of Internet access in schools? What proposals are in place to ensure schools throughout Ireland have access to a competent and efficient Internet education system?
The Deputy's question would be more appropriate to the line Minister. The Deputy may ask general, not detailed, questions.
My question relates specifically to infrastructure and deals in particular with broadband and Internet facilities. Will the Taoiseach agree that we have lost our most appropriate source of funding, the telecommunications system, in wrongfully selling it to private interests at a time when it was proving so profitable that it could vote its directors a €446 million dividend, including €20 million to Anthony O'Reilly? Would it not have been wiser to retain such a source of critical funding to enable us address our broadband and Internet deficits? Will the Taoiseach agree that selling Eircom was a short-sighted proposal?
Most of the Deputy's questions were appropriate to the Minister responsible.
I did not pick up the name of the report to which the Deputy referred at the beginning of his question.
I referred to the International Telecommunications Union report which showed that this State lay 51st of 73 countries listed in terms of broadband roll-out and Internet access. The second report I referred to, in case the Taoiseach has forgotten, was the EU Court of Justice report.
I asked for the name of the first report the Deputy mentioned.
I thought that as the Taoiseach had not heard the name of the first report he might not have heard the name of the second one either.
Deputy Ó Caoláin, please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
I am aware of the international group referred to and wish it well with the development of broadband but its figures in relation to Ireland are totally out of date. Quite frankly, the figures given are a load of rubbish.
Ireland is in fourth place behind Holland, Denmark and Sweden in the latest report on the Euro-barometer in terms of Internet penetration. It is important to understand that Ireland has a world class competitive broadband infrastructure in terms of international connectivity and the national backbone. Our system is state of the art in that respect. I have pointed out a number of times this year that we are experiencing local level network deficiencies. That is why we took the correct decision to finance, with local authorities, the building of metropolitan fibre loops in 19 towns around the country.
Notwithstanding that, the Government has no intention of re-entering into discussions about Eircom. That decision was made and Deputy Ó Caoláin is entitled to his opinion. The decision was based solely on the need to deepen national competitiveness into the future while stimulating investment in broadband infrastructure. The relevant Minister has, during Question Time, given an account of what he is trying to do to activate the market in this regard. Many commercial and public sector companies in Europe were stung in relation to 3G licences. They are up to their necks in debt and have not taken up broadband to the extent they should.
We are working on two parallel strands involving 19 towns around the country. The first involves infrastructure projects. I understand from the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, that 17 of 19 projects are under way. The second strand deals with the management process. The Minister has put forward an appropriate model for private sector involvement in the operation and management of the local networks and placed advertisements in the Official Journal of the European Union last June. The closing date under European Union procurement procedures was 15 August and the contract is to be signed over the coming weeks.
The Government has decided to provide broadband to schools and specialist schools throughout the country and the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, have announced their projects in that regard. We will also, wherever we can, deliver broadband to areas of disadvantage, including community centres, where people require it. This is being done in a number of ways. Some areas will have fibre optic cables while others will have wireless technology.
In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin, the central objective is to roll out phases to ensure we get the optimum private sector participation. I agree with the Deputy it is a pity there is not greater investment. We have engaged in extensive consultations with those in the industry to try to secure their involvement. The Minister will be glad to provide details on this. Additionally, over the past few years the Government has engaged the international telecommunications expert, Ira Magaziner, to assist us in mapping the way for ward. He completed a review of the Government's broadband strategy and the Minister is involved in the follow-up to that, of which he will provide details.
We would like to have far greater broadband penetration. We are not in a strong position and I do not believe we will be until we can get private sector involvement. However, a huge amount of work is under way in this area and the Government has made good decisions. Nevertheless, it would be immensely helpful if we could get some of the private sector companies to engage in this area in a real way. It tends to happen that when one engages in a particular area, the others become very interested, but it is still proving difficult to get them to engage nationally.
Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Cabinet has signed off on the mid-term review and, if so, will he indicate when it will be made public? Has he anything to say about its conclusions?
Will the Taoiseach indicate if there are any conclusions in Government as to why PPPs are not working? Will he outline the difficulties involved in establishing a template for their operation? Will he indicate if, even at this late stage, the Government has given any consideration to appointing a political supremo to drive the implementation of the national development plan, especially in the context of evident criticism and reports, such as that of the Institute of Engineers of Ireland, which suggests that the completion date of the plan will be delayed from 2007 to 2013?
With regard to the big idea emanating from his party's Ard-Fheis in Killarney proposing the establishment of an infrastructure board, will the Taoiseach indicate how it is intended that an appeal would lie in the event of issue being taken with the board on a point of law? Does it mean that an appeal must be made directly to the European Court of Justice, which must be the case given the European dimension to the infrastructure spending in this country? If there are long delays in Ireland because of snails, swans and people hanging off trees, as the Taoiseach puts it, they are three times as long in Europe. Is he providing in that proposal for judicial review or will appeals be made directly to Europe?
Does the Taoiseach share my bemusement at the Minister for Transport, with all the sincerity only he can command—
That is nothing in comparison to the Deputy.
—who told the conference that people should get off the back of Luas? I was under the impression the Minister was its greatest critic. Does the Taoiseach agree with his Minister or the Leader of the Seanad who said it was time the Minister got his finger out? Does the Taoiseach believe, as the Leader of the Seanad says, the mess is the creation of the present Minister for Transport or does he agree with the Minister that it is due to his predecessor? It is important that we clear up this question because we cannot have these divisions bringing what the Minister for Transport said is confusion to the project.
There is certainly none on that side of the House. The reverse takeover project is complete.
There is too much confusion.
Deputy Cowen has a different takeover project in mind. He has my full support.
Unlike the Deputy, I did not place an each way bet before the election.
If the Minister wants lessons on how to do it, he should come and talk to me privately.
One cannot win them all.
Come and talk to me privately.
The Deputy must be joking.
Get the finger out.
Deputy Rabbitte's final question anticipates questions to the Minister for Transport, which will commence shortly.
The mid-term review will be published shortly. A number of issues will be addressed. The Deputy asked for an insight. The Exchequer provision for national roads is a major part of the programme and it has exceeded the NDP forecast by more than 10%. Project re-scheduling will be necessary and the mid-term review will point that out. The need for re-scheduling arises from an incremental number of factors, especially construction price inflation, planning delays, capacity constraints and non-Exchequer funding shortfalls over the period. Other issues highlighted are the negotiations with the farming bodies and the outbreak of foot and mouth disease, which led to long, unavoidable delays.
However, more progress has been achieved during this period than since the foundation of the State. Thirty major roads projects have been completed since 2000 comprising 231 kilometres in all, including 83 kilometres of motorway to dual carriageway standard. A further 16 schemes are under construction, involving 173 kilometres, of which motorways comprise 155 kilometres. A total of 16 projects will be completed by the end of the year and substantial planning and design work on many other projects has been undertaken. There is no need to go through the major projects but all the work that was envisaged will not be completed. It will have to be re-scheduled and spread out. The National Roads Authority will pursue a detailed programme and roll it out in the period ahead.
Construction price inflation is not nearly as bad as it was in the first few years of the programme at which point it was substantial. The Deputy does not need me to go into the figures as they are in the public domain. Public private partnerships have worked well in some areas. The Kinnegad bypass is a few months ahead of schedule. PPPs are also being used for education projects but there is not great interest in them in other areas. The Minister for Transport is anxious to proceed with other projects through public private partnership.
It is not true to say PPPs have not worked. I have already mentioned the Department of Finance's view on their value, which I know is shared by a number of members of the Opposition. The fact that the State can borrow money more cheaply than those involved in some of these projects is always mentioned. There is scope in other areas. I have said to Deputy Kenny that the legislation will be debated in the House. I gave the general detail of the legislation some weeks ago.
The Minister for Transport is the biggest promoter of the Luas scheme.
That is for sure.
He is the biggest promoter of himself, but not of Luas.
Deputy Rabbitte is right.
He is not shy; we will give him that.
Tá sé ag teacht.
He is keen to ensure that the Luas scheme will be finished on time.
I thought that Senator O'Rourke was promoting him as well.
Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
The Minister is using stilts.
Senator O'Rourke was good on "The Panel" last night.
The Deputies will love it when it comes.
The Minister is very anxious to see it completed.
I would say he is.
His comments and concerns have been based around the Red Cow area. He raised his queries in that regard.
He is a natural comedian.
It is a rollercoaster.
Judge O'Leary reported on such matters and submitted his findings to the then Minister, Senator Mary O'Rourke, who accepted them and the conditions he imposed. There is a concern in the public mind as a result of traffic increases in recent years. I think there are now 600,000—
I would prefer it if the Taoiseach did not go into detail about the Red Cow roundabout, as to do so is to anticipate a question put down by Deputy Shortall that will be answered very shortly by the Minister for Transport.
I am sure the Taoiseach will agree with the Leader of the Seanad, who said that the Minister for Transport should "get the finger out" in relation to these issues.
The Deputy has put down a question about this matter.
I will not speak about the matter—
It is only a detail, as the Taoiseach said on Sunday.
—other than to say that it is very encouraging to see the progress that has been made. Some 17 km of track, of a total of 24 km of track on both lines, has been laid.
What about the last 100 yards?
The test tracks are up. We are getting near completion on these major projects. I think my reply has answered all Deputy Rabbitte's questions.
There will be a rollercoaster at the end of it.
I know when I am beaten.
The Deputy can repeat that again.
On the Taoiseach's last comments, does he not agree that it seems crazy that the widened Naas dual carriageway and the M50 will lead to a one-lane road along the canal? May I ask about the delivery of the national development plan? Funding for the BMW region under the plan so far has been less than 50% of that committed to in the plan. The relevant figure in respect of the southern and eastern region is over 160%. Will the Taoiseach elaborate, for example, on the fact that eBay has announced that it will not go to Athlone because the necessary infrastructure is not in place? Does he not agree that this fact makes a sham of the spatial strategy? Does he not agree that there are no decent roads to connect Mullingar, Tullamore and Athlone, which have been designated as regional growth centres under the national development plan and the national spatial strategy? Will the Taoiseach elaborate on the nature of the delay in respect of the Cork School of Music, which is close to the heart of my colleague, Deputy Allen?
The last question does not arise from Questions Nos. 2 to 6, inclusive. It is a matter for the responsible Minister.
There is a musical hint for the rest of us.
In fairness, the Taoiseach seems to be singing from the same hymn sheet as the Minister.
This was dealt with last week.
I am sure the Taoiseach can answer my question.
Questions cannot be allowed to be expanded to include every question appropriate to a line Minister.
He wants to finish on a high note.
Absolutely.
The Ceann Comhairle has ruled on the Red Cow issue so I will not discuss it again. People continue to comment on the issue as if it has not been considered. I recently reread Judge O'Leary's detailed analysis of this matter. Experts from all faculties had an input and came to a conclusion.
It did not involve stilts.
The Minister for Transport has pointed out that the volume of traffic is now enormous, compared to what it was at that time. That is why these issues have been brought up. Some 90,000 vehicles pass by the location each day. Things change and certain matters have to be reconsidered – that is the issue. The Deputy should put down a question to the Minister for Education and Science in respect of the Cork School of Music.
Will he get an answer?
On foreign direct investment, it is the policy of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland in all cases to try to persuade industries to locate in the regions. Our first task is to get foreign industries into the country. If we are faced with a choice between an industry locating in Ireland but not in one of the regions and that industry leaving the country altogether, we prefer to keep the industry in the country, wherever it locates. Some foreign companies are glad to move to the regions. Others have reasons, relating to educational facilities, public transport or proximity to other industries, not to do so. However, we endeavour to persuade companies to locate in the regions. Having a national spatial strategy and a framework to show companies, as do the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, is proving to be an efficient way of proceeding.
We have a long way to go to get all our roads up to a satisfactory standard, but we must acknowledge the enormous improvement in recent years. Now that we have raised capital expenditure to between 4% and 5% of GDP, which is more than €5 billion this year, we must keep it at that level. In the past our problem has been that a few good years have often been followed by five or six very bad years. If we can maintain our capital programme at 5% of GDP, we will be able to deal with the deficiencies in our infrastructure over a sustained period. At 5% of GDP, we are spending more on our capital programme than our competing countries. Among European countries, only Luxembourg's capital programme is at a higher level than ours. I would like to see everyone in this House agreeing to maintain a capital programme at that level for ten or 15 years. If we did this, we would see an enormous change in the future and that would be preferable to looking back at what has been achieved over the past 30 or 40 years.
Four Deputies are offering. If the Deputies ask a brief question each, we can hear all four.
We have not heard much detail on the infrastructure board from the Taoiseach. I presume that, having conceived the big idea, the Government will now work out the detail. I look forward to that.
Does the Taoiseach accept that a political person needs to appointed to drive the implementation of the national development plan? Another quango or piece of bureaucracy will not suffice. We need someone to politically drive and lead the implementation of the plan. The plan is diffuse and several Ministers are involved in its implementation. There is no evidence that anyone was driving the plan politically in its early life during the boom years and we are now left in a logjam. Will the mid-term review examine this?
How can the Taoiseach tell the House that Luas is on time and on budget when we all know this is not true? It may be on time and budget in accordance with the latest budget or schedule, but it is certainly not on time or on budget according to the plans drawn up by the former Minister, Senator O'Rourke. The Taoiseach cannot cite the excuse of foot and mouth disease. It did not delay the Luas.
Foot in mouth.
On second thoughts, foot in mouth may have caused many difficulties in the early years. How can the Taoiseach say Luas is on time and on budget?
Deputy Rabbitte is again anticipating questions to the Minister for Transport.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the Indecon report, which feeds into the mid-term review? Can he confirm that it is scathing in the areas of electricity, communications, housing, health, research and development and the three year delay in the Luas project?
How are environmental impact assessments to be catered for by the infrastructure board, given that the Taoiseach regards the process as being too slow at present? Would he agree with the many people who feel that the infrastructure board is intended to fast-track projects that are particularly close to Fianna Fáil's interests, such as the rezoning of 47 acres of woodland in Dunleer, on which a Fianna Fáil activist will make a huge profit of €9 million? Can he say whether he is really thinking in terms of the nation's long-term interests by getting so cosy with the likes of Shell over the Corrib gasfield when there is no doubt regarding the supply of gas into the country?
We need to put investment in place. There has been an investment of €4 billion in transmission grids, which are favouring connections to fossil fuel rather than renewable energy sources. Does the Taoiseach not believe that the long-term interests would be better served by considering the long-term renewable energy potential of the country, as well as its needs, and by seeking to leave the Corrib gasfield unexploited until we need its oil? We do not need it at present but we will need it in the future. It would be more valuable if we left it there and concentrated on renewable energy potential.
The Deputy is making a statement.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the report referred by the International Telecommunications Union, which he sought to rubbish earlier, was based on 2002 statistics?
A brief question, Deputy.
Will the Ceann Comhairle allow me to finish? It is based on 2002 statistics and not information that is long out of date. Is the Taoiseach aware that the report places Ireland lower in the league than developing nations such as Peru and Croatia? Does he not acknowledge the important issue at the heart of this argument, as exemplified by eBay's decision to locate in Dublin rather than in a rural location like Athlone, as had been mooted?
The Deputy has made his point.
The reason for this is the significant imbalance between the developed eastern seaboard of the State and the rest of the island. For the Taoiseach to suggest that we are fourth in any league suggests that he is at a far remove from the reality in which I live and that of the constituents which I and other Deputies represent in this Chamber.
You have made your statement. I call on the Taoiseach to make a final reply.
What steps will the Taoiseach take to challenge the EU Court of Justice ruling regarding accessing funding for the development of Internet education—
Deputy, I ask you to allow the Taoiseach to reply, please.
—through telecommunications companies? These are the questions he did not answer earlier.
The data on broadband penetration changes every month and I get the up-to-date—
It has not changed that much since last January.
It has and this is why the Eurobarometer report deals with the statistics on a monthly basis. We are fourth on that list. As I have already explained to the Deputy, our problem does not concern broadband infrastructure in terms of international connectivity or the national backbone but concerns the local area. This is why the Government is trying to deal with this issue and get companies to introduce networks to 19 centres.
I do not agree with Deputy Rabbitte's point. Whether projects concern schools, hospitals, roads or any other infrastructural development, the head of the Department, who is the political head of the Department, is involved in their direct implementation. Major areas of infrastructure comprise a direct political responsibility. The implementation of the national development plan in the capital programme is, in the normal course of events, a matter for individual Departments. More capital infrastructural projects have taken place in the period 2000 to 2003 than in the previous 15 or 16 years. This is a fact and we need to stop talking nonsense.
On Deputy Ó Caoláin's point, I would like to get more companies into counties Monaghan and Cavan. I have no difficulty with this. However, I question the wisdom of standing up in this House and criticising private sector companies that have decided to locate in Ireland for their preferred choice of location within the country. To do too much of that would solve one's problem but the companies will locate outside the country.
They have cited the reasons for—
Sorry, Deputy Ó Caoláin, you have had your opportunity.
Perhaps Deputy Ó Caoláin knows some means of applying force to private sector companies regarding how they should deal with things and where they should locate but I do not, and it is not open to me to do so. The reality is that one has to try to convince private sector companies to follow the national spatial strategy and we will endeavour to do this.
On the issue of gas, meeting the president of one of the biggest companies in the world is not cosying up to anybody. Showing courtesy to a person whose company has already spent in excess of €200 million on a project in this country is important and I would not be doing my job if I did not explain what happens in the legislation in this country.
He did so for his own profit.
I do not know any more about Shell than Deputy Sargent, but if I were to take his view about every private sector company, we would not have many people working in this country. I hope we are not reaching a stage when one should not meet anybody.
The Taoiseach is letting down the renewable energy sector.
Allow the Taoiseach to conclude, please. We have gone well over the time allocated.
Not too many people turn up at my door who have spent or are about to spend several hundred million euro in this country.
It will not be spent in Ireland.
