Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 May 2004

Vol. 585 No. 6

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

I would like to ask the Minister for Defence, acting for the Taoiseach, about the decentralisation programme. Is he happy that the Civil Service will be able to operate at its traditional high standard, given the method of dispensation and break-up here? The concept of decentralisation has been supported over many years and many towns in Ireland have gained economically and socially as a consequence. However, it is obvious from canvassing here in Dublin over the last few weeks that there is serious unrest among people who are being asked to move when they do not want to do so, despite the fact that this is a voluntary scheme.

Can the Minister explain what is to happen to people working with Bus Éireann who are to be transferred to Mitchelstown? It is a very fine town, but they might not want to go because of commitments to their families. They cannot obtain any information on their future career prospects. What is the situation of those working in the Valuation Office who are to be sent to Youghal, another fine town? For family reasons they might not want to move, but they cannot obtain information on career prospects either. Has this matter been thought through by the Government? Is there anyone who can explain their future career prospect to professional and technical personnel working in semi-State bodies? The website provided does not give information on the issue. These professional people, who may not want to move for a variety or reasons, feel that they are being left high and dry because they are getting no answers.

This concept was never discussed in detail as part of the spatial strategy. As the scheme is voluntary, what is in store for people like those I described who decide not to go?

Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith)

The report on decentralisation implementation was submitted to the Government in early April 2004. The Government accepted its recommendations and the report was published on 7 April. Among its recommendations was the establishment of an integrated transfer system called the central applications facility, which will allow people to apply for transfer to decentralised locations and to rank their preferences for different locations. It was recommended that the system be web-based and be operated by the Civil Service Commission.

The central applications facility, or CAF, was launched by the Minister for Finance on 10 May 2004. The Minister described the CAF as a further vital step towards the Government's implementation of the decentralisation programme, and as a commitment to those public servants anxious to participate in it. The Minister also described the CAF as a crucial piece in the decentralisation jigsaw and central to the programme's successful implementation. The CAF is available at www.publicjobs/caf.ie and applicants require PPS numbers to apply.

Mr. Allen

Could the Minister translate that into English?

Mr. M. Smith

Since the programme was first announced, we have got used to opposition to its principle from the Opposition.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Government has been fooling around with this for five years.

Mr. M. Smith

One only has to travel to towns around the country on a Friday or a Sunday evening to see the many young people travelling to this city who are anxious to be transferred closer to their own counties.

Mr. Connaughton

The Minister should answer the question.

Mr. M. Smith

There are circumstances where individuals do not wish to transfer.

Mr. F. McGrath

Less than 5% want to transfer.

Mr. M. Smith

Each Department and agency has established its own unit to adjudicate and assist each individual. This programme will proceed whether the Opposition likes it or not.

Mr. Stagg

It will proceed whether the Civil Service likes it or not.

Mr. Kenny

That is an answer of truly imbecilic proportions and it shows absolute contempt and arrogance. I live in a town which benefited from decentralisation in the 1970s. I asked the Minister a question on behalf of dedicated public servants. I mentioned Mitchelstown, a fine town in provincial Ireland. Some 200 people are to be transferred from Bus Éireann, but there are only 80 posts that can be transferred because they are administrative. There are only two people who wish to go voluntarily. The remainder are bus drivers, mechanics and so on. There are people here in Dublin, married with children, who may not wish to move because they have friends here, their children are going to school and so on. It is a voluntary scheme, yet no one is able to tell them what is in store for them if they decide not to move. I want to know why. That is the question I asked.

Anyone canvassing in Dublin will often have been asked by civil servants how the Government consulted with their Department, semi-State agency or body. They will claim that they like their job and they do not want to move because they are settled here. Can the Minister explain the future career prospects of those people? He should not spout nonsense about the Opposition being against decentralisation. I know the value of decentralisation in Tullamore, Letterkenny, Castlebar and Ballina. The Minister should answer the question. This is a political move as the Government is running scared before the people.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. M. Smith

There have been a numberof extremely successful decentralisation programmes.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. D. Ahern

Including in the Deputy's county.

Mr. M. Smith

They were carried out in the face of the kind of opposition the Deputy is outlining. He has only to go to his county and discuss that matter with those civil servants.

Mr. Kenny

I said that.

Mr. M. Smith

Yes.

Mr. Kenny

That is agreed. Now, what will happen to those people?

Mr. M. Smith

Everybody recognises that there will be some difficulties and that there will be quite a number of people who want to remain in Dublin. Our Government has proved, in terms of reaching consensus on a range of issues, that we will operate this one successfully as well.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach recently told the House that the Hanly report was Government policy. The purpose of the Hanly report is to reduce Nenagh and Ennis Hospitals to the status of local hospitals, with a nurse-led, minor injury unit provided during daytime. Does the Minister for Defence support the view that Hanly is Government policy and will be implemented?

On the aide-memoire published in The Sunday Tribune, which typifies the complaints we are getting about the health services up and down the country, the Minister for Health and Children compiled an aide-memoire for Government setting out that €400 million worth of capacity is lying idle; it cannot be equipped or commissioned because of the absence of funding. He said in the memorandum that he could provide €35 million from own resources but it would require a commitment of €50 million on an ongoing operational basis to operate the plant concerned. What is Government policy in respect of that?

It would allow the opening of Mullingar Hospital, which has been lying vacant for years. It would allow the opening of the new wing in James Connolly Memorial Hospital, which has been lying idle for a year and about which the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, said in reply to Deputy Burton a few days ago that it could not be commissioned because of the absence of service staff — cleaning, lighting, heating — and that the cost of that would prevent it being reopened.

My colleague, Deputy Wall, has a reply in respect of the 60 beds kept closed at Naas Hospital. It states that the main barrier to opening beds in the old hospital is in the control framework of the South Western Area Health Board's employment ceiling, which will not facilitate the employment of additional staff numbers at this time. We have a similar situation in terms of critical units at Wexford Hospital. Throughout the country, badly needed beds in acute hospitals could be open. What is the Government's response to that aide-memoire, and what is the position of the Minister for Defence on the Hanly report?

Mr. M. Smith

The funding which has been provided for the health services over recent years is without any previous parallel. Deputy Rabbitte knows that since 1997, the total amount of expenditure on health has been increased by 188%.

Ms Shortall

Answer the question.

Mr. M. Smith

Last year, for the first time ever, more than 1 million patients were treated between in-hospital and out-patient facilities, 47,000 more than the previous year, and that has been a consistent pattern in terms of investment in health and health strategies.

With regard to the Hanly report, Deputy Rabbitte has indicated that both for Ennis and Nenagh hospitals, the accident and emergency services would be changed.

Mr. Rabbitte

No. Hanly has indicated that, not me.

Mr. M. Smith

Yes. As Deputy Rabbitte knows, even though he has outlined it, that aspect of the report has been changed——

A Deputy

Bye-bye Hanly.

Mr. M. Smith

——and Dr. McAvinchey of Nenagh Hospital publicly stated, for everybody to hear, how he and others were satisfied with the new arrangements which are being put in place to ensure that accident and emergency services continue in those two hospitals.

Ms O. Mitchell

Is it only those two hospitals?

Mr. M. Smith

The main thrust of what is contained in the Hanly report will be implemented——

Mr. Connaughton

Everywhere else?

Mr. M. Smith

——but changes have been made in the accident and emergency services.

Mr. Kenny

Sacrifice on the altar of Hanly.

Mr. M. Smith

The Minister for Health and Children has announced those and they are widely acceptable to the local community.

Mr. Crawford

What is happening in Monaghan?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. M. Smith

As far as the building programmes which Deputy Rabbitte outlined are concerned, there are a number of projects which have been completed but have not been opened. Negotiations are continuing between the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Finance for the additional resources that will be required for that but every project will be opened.

Ms Burton

Where?

Mr. M. Smith

Deputies can be assured that the necessary resources to make that happen will be put in place as soon as possible.

Mr. Durkan

Excellent.

Mr. McCormack

There will be one and a half million people sick next year.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am bound to say to the Minister that it is not true that policy in accident and emergency provision has been changed. I ask the Minister to contain himself and not to utter any words that will embarrass us.

Mr. M. Smith

I know what has been changed in Ennis.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue without interruption.

Mr. M. Smith

I know what the people opposite are trying to do but they are not going to wrap Nenagh and Ennis hospitals around themselves——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister had his opportunity. It is Deputy Rabbitte's opportunity now and he will have a chance to respond.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Minister indicate to the House how policy on accident and emergency provision has changed? The issue applies far wider than the examples I gave of Ennis and Nenagh. It applies to Mallow and several other hospitals I visited.

A Deputy

Tuam.

Mr. Rabbitte

The only change in respect of Nenagh is that two years grace has been given to get the Government past the local and European elections on 11 June. This threat exists right across the spectrum.

I am not talking about buildings. I am talking about capacity lying idle, identified by the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, as being to the extent of €400 million. I am talking about badly needed beds that might be opened in a range of areas from Mullingar, Naas and the other examples I gave that would take tremendous pressure off the system and allow the delivery of more professional and speedy services. There is no point in the Minister saying to the House they will be provided as soon as possible. The aide-memoire I mentioned earlier went to Government the week before 2 May. What is the response to that? Will the Minister tell the House precisely how policy on accident and emergency provision is changed? Since when will Hanly be implemented everywhere else but not in Nenagh?

Mr. M. Smith

Once again, Monsieur Lapin has got it wrong. The situation in Nenagh is not——

Mr. Rabbitte

It is difficult enough to take the Minister in English.

Mr. M. Smith

——as Deputy Rabbitte has described.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Is the Minister sure that is parliamentary language?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. M. Smith

I know Deputy Rabbitte would love to convince the people in north Tipperary and elsewhere that the change will be only made for two years, but that is wrong.

Mr. Rabbitte

Of course it is. They told me. I was there.

Mr. D. Ahern

Is the Deputy travelling out of Dublin?

Mr. M. Smith

That is untrue. The Deputy's party has a disgraceful record as far as the county hospital in Nenagh is concerned, at a time when it had the resources and the Health and Finance portfolios.

Ms McManus

The Minister should stop misleading the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. M. Smith

You are not going to wrap Nenagh Hospital around yourself in this election. I will make sure you do not.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Minister would address his remarks through the Chair he might not invite interruptions.

Mr. M. Smith

One cannot open a building unless one builds it first.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Minister to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is that a French concept as well?

Mr. M. Smith

They will be opened. The House need not worry.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In the Fianna Fáil local government manifesto, which was launched last week, the Taoiseach's first commitment is to "deliver for the regions through decentralisation of Government and continued investment in local services". This is Fianna Fáil's big promise to the electorate in the lead-up to the elections on 11 June. However, the decentralisation plan unveiled by the Minister for Finance last December has been ill-thought out and ill-planned. On what basis was it decided to proceed with the announcement to decentralise 10,000 posts to various locations throughout the jurisdiction without consultation with any of the civil servants involved? Will the Minister explain how this is still being described as a voluntary scheme?

What is the Government's response to the fact that 95% of SIPTU members in the Civil Service who were surveyed since the budget do not wish to leave Dublin? Only 69 out of 503 respondents are interested in taking up the proposed 250 positions in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in Carlow. The general secretary of the Public Service Executive Union has said the programme will be impossible to implement before the end of 2006. Civil servants from the Combat Poverty Agency, the smallest decentralisation proposed for Monaghan and whose staff I have met on a number of occasions since last December, state that there is no prospect of the agency being moved to Monaghan.

Mr. D. Ahern

Why not? It is going to a beautiful part of the country.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Is Deputy Ó Caoláin supporting them in that?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Only 500 of the 2,500 staff in the Department of Social and Family Affairs in Dublin are willing to move to the country.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Is the Minister aware of the huge concern among more than 800 information technology staff and 500 other staff in the Department of Health and Children who have not yet been given an indication of where it is proposed to relocate them? They are at an even greater disadvantage than those who have had their new location already signalled because all they know is that it is proposed to decentralise them but they have no information regarding that, with all the uncertainty that entails.

In an article in the December edition of Inside Government,——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should give way to the Minister.

Mr. Curran

The Deputy does not believe in abiding by the rules.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——the Minister for Finance indicated that he had instructed the implementation committee to report to Government by March on those 1,350 workers. Has the implementation body reported to Government and Cabinet and has a decision been made regarding the future of those workers?

An Ceann Comhairle

Two minutes are allowed for the submission of a question. Three and a half minutes is not appropriate.

Mr. M. Smith

I would have expected Deputy Ó Caoláin to welcome the Combat Poverty Agency to Monaghan, an Objective One area, and that he would have been prepared to assist and encourage such a development in his constituency rather than pointing to the difficulties and obstacles and suggesting ways in which it cannot work.

We have had a number of decentralisation programmes. They have given a substantial economic boost to the towns to which sections of the public service have been relocated. The individuals concerned have played significant roles in the cultural, economic and sporting life of these areas. That will happen again. In some cases it will take time to tease out problems. Decentralisation will be done on a voluntary basis with as much co-operation as possible. It will work. It has worked before.

We have the most centralised system of almost any small country in the world.

Mr. Boyle

That is true.

Mr. M. Smith

It is important to spread resources, not merely with regard to personnel but also with regard to the delivery of services.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister should answer the question.

Mr. M. Smith

The Department of Social and Family Affairs, which deals on a day to day basis with almost 1 million clients, is one of the most decentralised Departments of Government. This would never have happened if Opposition Deputies had had their way.

Mr. D. Ahern

Deputy Ó Caoláin will be at the official opening.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will welcome the Combat Poverty Agency to Monaghan, if it is to happen. The Minister has not answered the question because he is not prepared to face up to the assertion that he and his colleagues failed to address this proposal properly before December 2003.

Mr. M. Smith

Deputy Ó Caoláin is a big man to pre-negotiate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Government has not consulted or planned. The mask has slipped and we have another typical Fianna Fáil pre-election promise.

Is the Minister aware that the Government's decentralisation committee has acknowledged that thousands of civil servants will be transferred to new jobs but that this will involve the effective exclusion of many civil servants from promotional opportunities? The Government should heed those words carefully.

Mr. M. Higgins

That is true.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Civil servants are being told that if they do not move, they will not get the same promotional opportunity. That is not a voluntary scheme. It is threatening, objectionable and not acceptable.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy has no vision.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister should take no solace from the remarks of the general secretary of the Public Service Executive Union who has stated that the move of the Equality Authority of Ireland and the Equality Tribunal to the Minister's home town of Roscrea — I wish Roscrea and Tipperary well in this regard — had more to do with his party's political interest in that area and the upcoming elections on 11 June. The Minister has failed, so far, to answer this accusation.

Mr. M. Smith

I hope my party will always take an interest in these areas and help them in every way we can.

The critical mass which will evolve from this major decentralisation programme, combined with programmes which have already taken place and the fact that a number of towns with public servants in them will be close together, will afford new opportunities for promotion which did not exist in previous decentralisation programmes. Negotiations on all these matters will take place.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Government's decentralisation committee has stated the contrary.

Mr. M. Smith

These problems are opportunities to be solved in the wider national interest.