Vol. 632 No. 2
1 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the fact that a recent crime survey concluded Ireland has the highest rate of crime of the 18 countries surveyed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6941/07]
The report referred to by the Deputy is The Burden of Crime in the EU — a Comparative Analysis of the European Crime and Safety Survey (EU ICS) 2005. The survey was carried in the 15 old member states of the European Union plus Poland, Hungary and Estonia.
The findings of that survey need to be approached with caution. The sample size in the survey of approximately 2,000 is extremely small for a victimisation survey. Some of the incident types covered have a low incidence, which means any estimates are potentially subject to relatively high sampling error. The response rate of just over 41.8% is low, much lower than the CSO quarterly national household survey — crime and victimisation module. Furthermore, there are major differences in coverage, sample sizes and methods between the two surveys. The CSO survey was based on face-to-face interviews with 37,000 respondents in 29,500 households and the response rate was approximately 90%. The EU-ICS survey was a telephone survey — landline only — of 2,000 individuals using random digit dialling, with a response rate of less than 42%.
While the impact of such a low response rate is not entirely known, it could be that those who declined to participate did so on the basis that they had nothing to report, that is, that they were not victims of crime. If this were the case, the victimisation rates would be over-estimated.
The findings in regard to Irish rates for some personal crimes shown in the survey are surprising. Assaults and threats are measured at 4.9%, whereas the CSO reported this at 1.2% in its 2003 survey. Similarly, personal theft is measured at 7.3%, compared to a CSO figure of 3.1%. Theft from a car is estimated at 5.2%, compared to a CSO figure of 3.5%.
The report is not based on actual crime figures and differs quite considerably from surveys conducted by the CSO. It may be instructive to examine trends in reported actual crime, which is a matter of objective fact, over the period since 2003. Using CSO census data and inter-census estimates of population, the crime rate per 1,000 of the population dropped from 26 in 2003 to 24.5 in 2006, with the figures for 2004 and 2005 being 24.5 and 24.8 respectively. The crime rate per 1,000 of the population in 2006 was, therefore, the lowest in the period of office of this Government. By way of comparison, the crime rate per 1,000 of the population in 1996 was 27.8. The House will be aware that, at my initiative, recorded crime figures are now produced by the Central Statistics Office.
In July 2003, the Government approved my proposal that a regular national crime victimisation survey be carried out biennially as a valuable and useful complement to the information on crime already available. Such surveys would provide a more comprehensive perspective on crime victimisation than is currently available and, when undertaken on a regular basis, would provide useful information on emerging trends in crime and so provide input into developing strategies to combat crime.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
It is expected that the CSO will publish the results of its crime and victimisation survey in April on the same basis as the 1998 and 2003 surveys. From 2008, the CSO will conduct a large scale crime and victimisation survey every two years.
None of what I have said should be seen as in anyway diminishing the concern which the Government has about crime levels. It is because of that concern that we are providing unprecedented resources to all the elements of the criminal justice system, including bringing the strength of the Garda Síochána up to 15,000. This, in turn, is being underpinned by a comprehensive programme of criminal law reform.
Does the Minister not accept this is a damning independent, objective assessment of the state of crime in this country? Does the Minister blush, or is he capable of doing so, when he sees a headline in a national newspaper, The Sunday Times, which states “Ireland has worst crime rates in EU”? Does he agree the survey confirms the very high risk of crime in Ireland — the highest in the EU? With regard to the rates of crime, does he not worry when he sees we have the highest level of assaults — fourth in the EU, with 2.5% as opposed to 1% average — the highest level of sexual assaults, the highest rate of robberies and so on?
The Minister raised the issue of methodology, but the methodology was the same for other countries as for us. Is he not worried about this outcome? It confirms only what people know already.
There is an even more disturbing aspect, namely, that the survey confirms that significant numbers of crimes are not reported thereby confirming a hidden wedge of crime exists. At this late stage in his career as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, will the Minister come out of denial and accept we have a horrendous level of crime? There is no hope of salvation for the Minister or no way of dealing with the problem unless he accepts its enormous extent. Will he acknowledge now the serious state of the problem?
The Minister has three months left of his 60 months in office. Will he even acknowledge the homicide rate last year was the highest in the history of the State? Will his legacy leave any measure that will leave an impact? Does he accept there is a problem and is there anything he can do now in his last few months that will have an effect, rather than just leave wishful plans for the next Government?
It is not reasonable for me to reject the CSO's figures in this regard. Those figures were produced on the basis of 37,000 respondents in face-to-face interviews in 29,500 households.
The comparators are the issue.
I cannot see that I can reject the CSO's method of approach as the House relies on its figures.
The issue is the comparator with other countries.
I do not believe I should reject them. The Deputy asked whether anything good was happening or was planned. For the past three quarters, the crime rate has reduced. I went to the Phoenix Park yesterday to discuss crime trends with the Commissioner and his two deputies and was told they are of the view that the trend is downward in this quarter also.
The Minister is grasping at straws. His legacy is one of complete failure. Unless he comes out of denial it will continue to be a failure until he leaves office.
2 Mr. Howlin asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the investigation that has been held into the circumstances in which the Garda Síochána failed to act on information supplied through Interpol from the Austrian authorities regarding the alleged involvement of people based here in a global child pornography ring; the outcome of such an investigation; if the information supplied has been followed up; if he expects this will lead to prosecutions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6943/07]
I am informed by the Garda authorities that on 22 August 2006 the Interpol office at Garda headquarters received information from the Austrian authorities that they were processing reports of child pornography on the Internet and that Ireland was one of 72 countries included in the notification by the Austrian authorities.
No action was taken at the time by the Garda authorities on foot of the notification and they have expressed regret for this. I share that regret. I understand the Garda authorities have been in contact with the Austrian authorities on the matter and have taken further action, but it would be inappropriate for me to disclose the nature of this further investigation and it would be counter productive to do so.
A Garda chief superintendent has been appointed to carry out a fact finding investigation into the full circumstances of the failure to react to the Interpol communication and the subsequent Garda statement to the effect that such a document had not been received. That investigation will look at measures to ensure the very high volume of information received from international sources is handled more effectively. I do not propose to make any further comment before completion of the ongoing Garda investigation, which will be completed as quickly as possible.
I have been assured by the Garda Síochána of its determination to avoid a recurrence of this incident and to pursue relentlessly evidence of involvement in child pornography. For my part, I will continue to pursue measures, particularly in terms of international co-operation, to combat this evil trade.
Does the Minister accept that people are scandalised that such an issue and a crime of such magnitude could be notified to the Irish authorities and be ignored for months on end? Is he not scandalised by that? How many individuals work in the Garda international liaison unit? Is there a system in place to highlight the most serious offences, particularly those committed in our jurisdiction, from routine notifications coming in great volume to the office? What links exist between the Garda international liaison unit and the sexual assault and child protection unit? Is there automatic notification to that unit of international paedophile activity in this jurisdiction?
Is the Minister satisfied that as of now, not pending the report of some chief superintendent however long that may take, notification of this sort coming into the country from either Interpol or any foreign police force will be immediately notified to the appropriate division of the Garda and immediately acted upon?
I share the Deputy's view that there is substantial public concern on the matter. The situation is that the document in question was misinterpreted by the recipient as a general circular, the implication of which was not understood. The document was treated as a general circular rather than a warning to the Irish system that certain activity was taking place here. That was a serious error and I accept that.
A considerable volume of Garda resources is devoted to the matter of paedophile activity and the like. The paedophile investigation unit has been in existence since November 2002 and operates under the umbrella of the Garda violence and sexual assault unit. Members of the Garda Síochána attached to the National Bureau of Investigation augment those units when the volume of work requires. Computer forensics in connection with these cases are carried out by members attached to the domestic and sexual assaults unit and by members attached to the Garda bureau of fraud investigation using up-to-date forensic software.
I assure the Deputy that significant resources are available to the Garda Síochána to deal with these crimes. Such crimes do not occur at a constant volume and therefore it is necessary to bring in computer experts on occasion to carry out work as it would not be reasonable to have a computer expert sitting waiting for work.
I have every confidence in the way the sexual assault unit deals with these issues. However, the unit cannot deal with an issue if it has not received the information. I want assurance from the Minister that any warning that may arrive from now on, from Interpol or any other police authority anywhere in the world, that identifies serious criminal activity such as potential paedophilia, will be immediately notified to the appropriate unit, in this case the sexual assault unit. What steps has the Minister taken since this serious error happened to ensure it could not happen again?
I know there is a review going on and, no doubt, we will hear the details of that when the chief superintendent finishes his inquiry. However, can we be assured as of now that if such an alert arrived, it would not be mishandled, mistreated or misread today? What steps has the Minister taken to ensure this is a reality?
After this came into the public domain, I spoke to the Commissioner and deputy commissioner about operations. They assured me they had taken steps immediately to ensure that in future circular material of this kind would be more carefully examined, that any reference to Ireland would be immediately acted upon, that inquiries would be made with regard to the sending case to ensure gardaí were in possession of the maximum amount of information available and that incoming information would be shared among the garda units appropriate to deal with it.
I am quite satisfied the Commissioner is fully committed to ensuring this error is not repeated. For that reason, in addition to implementing a more rigorous examination of this kind of material and an immediate action plan on foot of this kind of intelligence, he has sought a more full and reflective inquiry as to what went wrong on the occasion.
When does the Minister envisage the report will be available?
He has not indicated, but I presume it cannot take long as it is not a complex matter.
That is what I thought.
3 Mr. Gregory asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if the expansion and localisation of the activities of the Criminal Assets Bureau to target the assets of persons or gangs involved in drug crime in the communities hardest hit by drugs would be a significant measure to curtail the growth of drug gangs and drug crime; his plans to re-organise CAB to take on drug crime at local level; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6993/07]
The Criminal Assets Bureau has been at the forefront of the fight against organised crime including drug trafficking in this jurisdiction since its inception in 1996. In that 11 year period the manner in which the bureau operates has come to be viewed, both domestically and internationally, as a successful model for targeting persons seeking to derive profits from criminal activities.
In recent days I took the occasion to discuss the Deputy's proposal with the Garda Commissioner at some length. He strongly advised me that there would not be an advantage to a structural reorganisation of the work of the Criminal Assets Bureau along a regional model, and he set out his reasons to me at some length.
On the Deputy's proposal for an expansion and restructuring of the CAB on a more local level focused on persons involved in drug crime, let me first respond by acknowledging the positive results being achieved by the current modus operandi of the bureau. Since its inception in 1996 up to 31 December 2005, which is the end date covered by the most recently produced CAB report, the bureau has obtained interim and final restraint orders to the value of over €58 million and €25 million, respectively. In the same period, taxes and interest demanded was almost €87 million, with almost €89 million collected. Regarding social welfare payments, savings amount to almost €2 million and recovery of overpayments amounted to over €1 million.
The assignment of specialist staff to the Criminal Assets Bureau from An Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, enables a multi-disciplinary, co-ordinated and integrated approach to the identification, freezing and seizure of criminal proceeds, the assessment and collection of unpaid taxes, and the recovery of social welfare overpayments. In addition, due to the unique nature of its work, the safety, protection and anonymity of the CAB staff is provided for by legislation.
On the possibility of dividing the CAB up regionally or such like, the Commissioner's arguments are briefly as follows. First, to have the relevant degree of professionalism and expertise, it is better to keep people at a central level so that they can interact with each other. Second, on the question of the anonymity of CAB personnel, if they were put in regional communities they would become much more easily identified, which is also a worry for the Commissioner. Third, he has recruited, at the suggestion of my Department, lay accountants who are centrally based and he has now received authority from my Department to recruit forensic analysts for the bureau. The idea, which he outlined and I accept, is that the CAB works better on a centralised basis where its quality is kept at a high level.
There is a danger that if there were a local scandal or if standards declined in one part of the country, the standards and integrity of whole of the Criminal Assets Bureau could be impugned. The director of the bureau is keen to ensure that no scandal attaches to the activity of the bureau and no accusation of impropriety or low standards ever applies, and therefore he wants to keep a firm grip on it to ensure adherence to high standards.
The Minister will be aware that I raised this issue with him in the past here in the Dáil and my question was to him, not to the Garda Commissioner, with all due respect to the Commissioner. Will the Minister accept that when people like myself were in this House calling for the establishment of an agency such as the Criminal Assets Bureau, it was the Garda authorities, the Revenue Commissioners' investigation branch and the investigation branch of the then Department of Social Welfare who stated that it was not a good idea and that they wanted to stay in their own territories, keep structures as they were and tackle it? The death of Veronica Guerin was the lever the Government used to establish the bureau despite the resistance of the very people who are now resisting the practical measure I suggest.
I again ask the Minister, if targeting the assets of drug crime is the way forward, does he agree it would be a good idea to target those assets at local level. With the Leas-Ceann Comhairle's permission, I will give a brief example of what I mean. This is one of many. A young couple was raided in a private apartment where drugs were found and they were charged. One of them will take the rap. Currently, the partner, who is on social welfare, who has a rent allowance and who drives a blacked-out jeep, has just returned from a skiing holiday, and has had expensive cosmetic surgery — there are a range of other matters I do not have time to mention here. At the lower to middle level in the drugs trade nothing is being done about any of those matters, for instance, claiming social welfare while being clearly caught in possession of a large amount of drugs and having assets available to them which they clearly could not have on a social welfare income. That is the scenario that fuels the drug crime gangs whose members are killing one another every couple of weeks in this city. That is the way the gangs build up.
The Criminal Assets Bureau, according to the debates in this House and elsewhere, was set up to target people like that, whether through their social welfare payments, their jeeps, their expensive holidays, etc. The bureau is not doing that at local level. I am not interested in whether the bureau is centralised or localised. I am interested in operatives targeting assets of people involved in drugs at local level. It is not happening.
I presume the €58 million the Minister mentioned in his response, which figure pales into insignificance in the context of the €1 billion industry of which we speak, is for the proceeds of all crime, not just drug crime, since the CAB was set up. Why, if the bureau is so good at dealing with organised drug crime, has it expanded throughout the country since its establishment? The Minister cannot have it both ways. It is as plain as day that since 1996 drug crime and drug gangs have expanded and flourished throughout Dublin's inner city, from the inner city to the suburbs, and to other cities around the country, and have led to the current scenario where it is so lucrative that human life itself is valueless and people are shot dead for the most trivial of reasons.
In the context of all of that, and particularly in the context of my first point on which I will conclude, when we all — including Veronica Guerin who was murdered for it — were calling for an agency to target the assets of the drug gangs, all the people who the Minister now quotes as a reason for him not to take this further step were the same ones who resisted that measure at the time. As the buck stops with the Minister, I ask him to give a little more consideration to the points I made. I would suggest some practical measure like the one I put forward would be far more productive than infringements on the right to silence and the endless other legislative innovations and initiatives the Minister is taking. Something practical on the ground, such as going after the assets of these people, is also essential if we are to get to grips with the problem.
I have a good deal of sympathy with the point Deputy Gregory made. From recent accounts given to me of places to which the Garda has gone where crime has been committed or where people have fled following crimes, I have been surprised by the accumulation of physical possessions such as flat-screen televisions in various bedrooms where there does not seem to be a support base for it. I take Deputy Gregory's point that in such cases there should be a follow-up. Those involved should not simply note these matters and leave the house. Somebody should return to take what appear to be proceeds of crime, directly or indirectly, into possession. That is a matter which I will raise with the Commissioner.
I am not suggesting to the Deputy that all is perfect, nor am I stating that the CAB is perfect. Perhaps I did not fully understand the Deputy's point. I believed he was suggesting the CAB be regionalised but he is proposing to have on-the-ground asset hounds whose job it would be to sweep up assets. That is a useful suggestion. In each Garda division there is now a criminal assets profiler whose job it is to examine assets in his or her division and bring information thereon to the attention of the CAB generally. The CAB has local eyes and ears on the ground and is not working entirely within a bubble in Dublin. I would like that to be understood.
The Deputy is making a different point which I understand; it concerns the prioritisation of criminals with the Jeeps, holidays and plasma televisions. Just because criminals are operating below a certain threshold does not mean action should not be taken against them. Depriving people of their assets will actually turn the tide in the war against drugs. I take the Deputy's point in this regard.
The simple way to achieve that is to localise or regionalise the CAB. A centralised bureaucracy inevitably deals with high profile cases and tackles the criminal with the ten big houses. It never comes to grips with those at the middle level. I do not mind what approach is taken once the job is done but the most practical approach is to localise and regionalise the centralised bureaucracy that the bureau has become.
I take the Deputy's point.
We will consider it when in government.
4 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is possible for members of the Garda Síochána to use PSNI indoor firing ranges for training purposes; his proposals to provide current, dedicated, indoor firearms training facilities for members of the Garda Síochána who hold firearms certificates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6802/07]
The Garda Síochána has a range of facilities available to it for firearms training and plans are well under way for the provision of dedicated and improved facilities for the force. Currently the Garda makes use of military ranges; the Garda specialist training units have access to 12 of these ranges countrywide. In addition, the Garda Síochána last year procured three virtual firearms automated training systems for marksmanship training. I spoke to a number of detectives recently who rated these virtual ranges very highly. They regard them as being of superior quality. These facilities are now in use in Limerick, Mullingar and at the Garda indoor firing range in the Phoenix Park, Dublin. I understand from the Garda authorities that the facilities represent a major improvement and contribution to the training capacity of the force.
The Garda Síochána has detailed plans to provide an enhanced range of firearms and tactical training facilities, including dedicated indoor firearms training facilities, for the force. The existing indoor firearms range at Garda headquarters in Dublin is to be replaced by a new underground facility. It is planned that this will be undertaken as part of the provision of new forensic science laboratory facilities, which project is under way. Firearms training capabilities, in addition to a broad range of other tactical training facilities, are to be developed at recently purchased lands near the Garda Training College at Templemore. The new centre which extends over 250 acres will, in conjunction with offering indoor and outdoor firearms training, provide for a full range of outdoor tactical training initiatives. These will cover public order, detective school training, the mountain bike, equestrian, dog and water units, surveillance training, etc. The centre will also be used for driver training for various vehicle types, including off-road training, and a broad range of other requirements. The Office of Public Works is examining proposals to use facilities provided by the private sector to serve firearms training needs for the Dublin metropolitan region and eastern seaboard area.
On the Deputy's question on the use of PSNI indoor firing ranges, the Garda authorities inform me that, due to regulations relating to the carrying of firearms and ammunition to other jurisdictions and the logistics of having a high number of personnel travelling to Northern Ireland, it is not practical for the Garda Síochána to use PSNI facilities for training purposes. However, the current investment plans for enhanced firearms facilities will be fully sufficient to meet the operational requirements of the force within this jurisdiction.
The Minister will be aware of my continuing concern over the fact that we expect approximately 3,000 members of the Garda Síochána to bear arms on our behalf and perhaps use them occasionally without their having any dedicated indoor firing facilities in which to train. Is he really suggesting the issue can be dealt with by having virtual firearms automated training systems, FATS? Are these like computer games or Quasar, at which children play, or Wii software? Is this what the Minister is offering members of the force to receive training in the use of lethal weapons? Does he not accept that training with actual firearms is required and that it is not being provided?
I have pressed this issue on many occasions and know there will be long delays in replacing the facilities in the Phoenix Park and commissioning new ones at the Garda Training College. Are there regulatory or logistical problems associated with the use of the PSNI ranges? Could we change the regulations and put in place a system, whereby members of the Garda could receive training in dedicated indoor firing ranges, as opposed to training with what seem to be advanced computer games? These may be helpful but certainly do not compensate in any way for the lack of training with real guns.
A number of gardaí have given me a first-hand account of the simulated ranges and they all spoke very highly of them.
Did the Minister see them?
I am sure they enjoy it.
It is not child's play or a computer game. The gardaí say the training is far more effective than pointing one's rifle——
We are talking about hand guns.
——or pistol at static targets. The Deputy should acquaint himself with these facilities.
Has the Minister seen them?
I have had first-hand accounts from a number of gardaí.
He has not seen them.
He has not.
I have not but I do not have to see every facility myself. The Deputy is obviously a doubting Thomas.
I am very much so where the Minister is concerned.
When gardaí tell me they are very happy with this new facility and when those I know and trust tell me how good it is, I am inclined to believe them. I do not deride them, belittle them or accuse them of playing computer games. The facility is nothing of the kind.
I am not belittling them.
Sending gardaí to the North for firearms training would not be practicable. It is not reasonable to send them on day trips to Belfast for this purpose. There are outdoor ranges in this jurisdiction. The indoor range constructed at the Phoenix Park, with which the Deputy's party was involved when in government, turned out to be dangerous.
The Minister should get over that, as he is ten years in office.
The Minister told me that years ago. It was bound to have ricocheted two years ago.
Although it is a comparatively modern facility, I am now in a position to build a dedicated indoor range in the park.
More grand plans.
They are not grand plans. I just have to do things, while the Deputy just makes a mess of them; that is the problem.
The Minister is drawing big plans.
If I were the Deputy, I would stick to broadcasting.
5 Mr. Howlin asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the cases he was referring to in regard to statements he made in which he referred to 24 associates of a deceased criminal having been arrested, of whom 23 were granted bail despite objections by the Garda; if he will confirm that the Garda objected to bail in all cases; if not, the number of cases in which it objected to bail; the offences with which people were charged in each case; the number of such cases where bail was initially refused but then granted by a higher court; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6944/07]
I refer to my answer to Questions Nos. 422, 464 and 465 of 31 January.
The House will appreciate that the granting of bail is a matter for the courts and that the Director of Public Prosecutions who is independent in the performance of his functions represents the State for the purpose of dealing with such applications.
We can take that as read.
Moreover, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the circumstances in which bail may have been granted, or refused, in particular cases. I can confirm, however, that I was made aware by the Garda authorities of their concern that in a substantial number of cases involving operations they had launched against gun and drugs criminals, bail had been granted despite Garda objections. It would be wrong of me to give a public account of the precise details of Operation Oak, the exact number arrested under the operation and the precise position or relationship of those persons in the web connected with Martin Hyland. To do so would seriously undermine the effectiveness of the operation and compromise Garda intelligence. Suffice it to say that well in excess of 23 persons were arrested in the course of this operation.
I have made it clear previously that in making this point I am in no way impugning the independence or decisions of the courts. I have accepted, however, that changes need to be made to the operation of our bail laws. I announced a series of proposals in this regard last week. I do not believe any Member of this House would seriously contend that difficulties are not being encountered in the operation of our bail laws.
The proposals which I will be bringing forward in the criminal justice Bill include measures designed to restrict access to bail by those accused of gangland type offences. A senior Garda will be able to give his or her opinion, which shall be admitted in evidence, that the applicant for bail is likely to commit a serious offence if given bail. The applicant may be required to provide a statement in which he or she outlines the assets held inside and outside the State, his or her income and the source of that income, his or her previous criminal record, his or her previous bail applications and, if bail had been granted, the conditions that attached thereto. He or she can be cross examined on the statement, which will be sworn on affidavit, and it will be an offence to give wrong or misleading information. Appeals on bail applications in the District Court will in future be heard in the Circuit Court, thereby allowing appeals by way of a full rehearing of the case. Provision will be made for electronic monitoring of persons granted bail.
The new provisions are likely to result in the prosecution being able to mount a strong challenge to bail applications, with the result that there will be fewer applications or, where applications are made, they can be opposed more effectively. I hope these measures will be supported by all sides of the House. I intend to discuss these measures in detail with the Director of Public Prosecutions so that any deficiencies that exist with regard to the preparation of cases against the granting of bail can be fully addressed.
It is well and good that the Minister has rehearsed the reply he gave on Question No. 465 of 31 January, in which he stated, "It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the circumstances in which bail may have been granted or, indeed, refused in particular cases." However, on 14 December 2006, he stated:
Regarding Operation Oak, 24 associates of Mr. Martin Hyland have been arrested and 23 have been granted bail. I have stated on a number of occasions that I regard this as very deeply unsatisfactory and have been criticised for doing so because it has been seen as disparaging of the Judiciary ... It is not acceptable that 23 out of 24 serious drug criminals are at liberty after being granted bail ... gardaí testify in the cases and oppose bail, yet they constantly find people who have been charged with serious offences are granted bail. I strongly contend that the practice is wrong and must be addressed.
The Minister cannot have it both ways. He often opposes the leaking of information while leaking it himself. He cannot say it is wrong for him to comment on individual cases only to do so when it suits him. He told the House that the associates of Mr. Hyland, all of whom were identifiable, had been arrested, yet he cannot provide specific information when I asked him whether the Garda objected to bail in the cases to which he referred on 14 December 2006. Was he making it up?
The Minister repeatedly says he is not disparaging judges but that is not how the media and the public view the matter. In one example of many, The Irish Times of 16 December 2006 reported that the Minister “publicly rebuked judges over the high rates of bail being granted in the face of Garda opposition”. He went on a crusade by citing particular evidence but now says he cannot give the evidence to substantiate his claims.
I agree that bail laws must be updated and, if judges are not implementing the law, we have the responsibility in this House to bring changes. However, while I welcome the promise to bring such changes, if we are going to be consistent and fair to every branch of this country's public administration, the Minister must substantiate the charges he makes.
It is interesting that Deputy Howlin is so selective in quoting the Dáil record because, if he turned back a few pages, he would note that he raised the matter for the first time in this House. He asked:
Does the Minister accept that his current policy has not worked and that the first step to a successful policy lies in recognising his failure to date? He stated yesterday and today that 24 members of Mr. Martin Hyland's gang are before the courts.
I am not denying what I said.
The Deputy should not get so excited. He continued: "Does [the Minister] accept that 23 are out on bail and walking the streets and what does he propose to do about this?"
I am happy to acknowledge I said that because it is the truth. I am asking the Minister to substantiate whether the Garda objected to bail and to indicate whether we need to change the law or the practices of the Garda. We have a duty to ensure that people who face serious charges and are recognised members of ruthless drugs gangs do not walk the streets. This is not a matter of idle semantics between two sides of the House but a question of ensuring that we do our collective duty by protecting the public from drug pushers.
Hear, hear.
