Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Oct 2007

Vol. 639 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Every murder here does us down as a people. I am appalled at the news this morning that a young Swiss student, having come to Ireland last weekend, has been murdered in Galway. I hope the public responds to the call for assistance from gardaí so that the perpetrator of this latest murder is brought to justice. It does us all down to have such unfortunate and tragic events foisted upon us.

This week, 11 October is a critical date because it is the date by which arrangements must be made for approval for slots into Heathrow Airport. We have had many conversations with and heard much waffle from Government on the consequences of the decision of Aer Lingus to move its Heathrow slots from Shannon to Belfast. If Aer Lingus does not submit a request for Shannon-Heathrow slots by Friday, to be approved at a conference in Toronto sometime in mid-November, then the decision stands. Words of Government are supposed to mean something and a Government is supposed to stand by what it says. The Government retains a shareholding of 25.4% in Aer Lingus for a particular purpose that the Taoiseach identified as defending strategic interests of this country. Those strategic interests were identified as Shannon-Heathrow, Cork-Heathrow and Dublin-Heathrow. Can the Taoiseach explain how the strategic interest of Shannon is protected by the removal of the slot from Shannon Airport to Heathrow?

The Taoiseach

I join Deputy Kenny and, I am sure, everybody in the House in conveying deepest sympathies to the family of Manuela Riedo. It was a callous murder of a girl who had only recently arrived in Ireland. The Garda Síochána has launched a major murder investigation and whatever resources are necessary to apprehend the killer will be made available.

The decision at the beginning of August, on which the Government has made several statements outlining its position, to withdraw the Shannon-Heathrow service from January 2008 was a commercial decision on the part of Aer Lingus and the company has reiterated that it will not change that decision. The Government is conscious that this will create difficulties for the region and several members have met all the relevant organisations from Shannon.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It has done nothing.

The Taoiseach

Several of my colleagues have gone to the region and I have met several of those organisations. I met all the main organisations who sought meetings with me in the middle of August.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What did the Government do?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy knows, the senior officials group has put forward a programme, on which we are working, to address the obvious implications for Shannon, and the Government admits there are implications. Those implications have perhaps, at times, been broadened out in a way with which we do not agree but there are negative impacts for tourism and business people wishing to travel. We have published the report of the senior officials group, on which we all worked, and we will endeavour to do all we can to ensure connectivity for the business people in Shannon. The commercial decision, however, has been made and while protections are afforded to the Government by its shareholding, those protections do not extend to its forcing Aer Lingus to make a decision it believes is not in its interest.

Deputy Enda Kenny

This represents the hypocrisy of Government. The Taoiseach promised a White Paper, before the sale of Aer Lingus, to deal with the regional strategic objectives and he has been completely blindsided in this matter. A major decision such as this, commercial or otherwise, would not have gone ahead without the tacit approval of Government.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

It would certainly not have gone ahead without reference to the board. When discussions took place about the development of an all-Ireland economy I am quite sure they referred to this issue, at least in some form.

The Taoiseach has not answered the question as to how the removal of the Shannon-Heathrow slots protects the strategic interests his Government specifically outlined as the reason for retaining a shareholding of 25.4%. The Government recognises that this is not just a local whinge, nor that it is an issue confined to the mid-west. Substantial business interests have made the point clearly that the removal of the slots will not be a major catalyst for moving out of the region. However, it will certainly be a serious contributory factor and if anything were to happen to the transatlantic routes the Taoiseach will be faced with a very serious problem.

I listened to the Minister for Transport and the Marine on the radio the other morning. He made the point that the reason for appointing two further board members is to ensure the board of Aer Lingus takes full cognisance of Government policy. Government policy is to protect the strategic interests of Shannon, Cork and Dublin but the Government has not done that. Does the Taoiseach accept that the original failure of Government to appoint two members to the Aer Lingus board was negligent in the extreme and meant that the commercial decision of which he speaks was taken by Aer Lingus without the full cognisance and understanding of Government policy?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny will recall that the board did not make that decision — it was made by the senior management of the company.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Why appoint members to the board, then?

The Taoiseach

If Deputies had been around in early August they would have known that to have been the case. The position in law is that it is not possible for Government to intervene directly to restore the Shannon-Heathrow service and it is not open to the Government to reverse the Aer Lingus decision. That is the position.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Sell the 25%.

Deputy Dan Neville

What is the Minister for Transport going to do?

Deputy Enda Kenny

What is the legal position?

The Taoiseach

That is the legal position. It is the law that shareholders cannot overturn management decisions. It is no good having a debate about what is legally and factually incorrect.

Deputy Kenny has asked his questions and he does not need help from other Members. Clearly there are negative impacts arising from a loss of connectivity. Deputy Kenny asked how this coincides with regional assistance. The Government made it clear that it does not. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and I made this point on 7 August in the first few days after the decision. The Shannon Airport Authority and the Government are actively engaging with carriers about new services to and from Shannon, including Shannon-Heathrow. It has recently published a new hub airport incentive scheme. Aer Lingus has confirmed that it is committed to serving the transatlantic market to and from Shannon. That is an important decision and one we support. Through a new link up with a US carrier JetBlue access to and from Shannon will be possible via 50 airports in the US, Mexico and the Caribbean. New direct services to Ireland are possible under the open skies policy.

Deputy Pat Breen

Not to Shannon.

The Taoiseach

Aer Lingus is launching new services to Washington, Orlando and San Francisco.

Deputy Pat Breen

From Dublin.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Not through Shannon.

The Taoiseach

Yes, from Shannon. Experience suggests that 50% of North American visitors can be expected to include a trip to the mid-west region. Other initiatives can be taken. Deputy Kenny is right that this has created concerns for the business and tourism communities, however we have met all the interested parties and we are acutely concerned about them. We are trying our best, if it is possible — but I cannot guarantee certainty — to assist them.

Deputy Pat Breen

Aer Lingus is the only option.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

In less than three months it will not be possible to get a flight from Shannon to Heathrow. There is no point in telling people that they can get a flight to Orlando if they want to travel to London. In less than three weeks time——

Deputy Michael Ahern

There are two other airports.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——due to deteriorating industrial relations in Aer Lingus, it may not be possible to get an Aer Lingus flight to anywhere. Last weekend British Midland indicated that it does not intend to run a service from Shannon to Heathrow. I would like the Taoiseach to tell us the name of the proposed carrier that will offer a service from Shannon to Heathrow. As I understand it, it was either British Midland or Aer Lingus and if British Midland will not provide the service, then the only way in which a service from Shannon to Heathrow can be provided is if Aer Lingus changes its position.

We have deteriorating industrial relations in Aer Lingus. If the suspension of pilots continues, inevitably it will result in an effect on the services being provided to the travelling public.

The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, announced at the weekend that he intends to appoint two additional directors to the board of Aer Lingus, and these people could and should have been appointed at a much earlier stage. Will the Taoiseach answer these three questions? How is it proposed to provide a service from Shannon to Heathrow? The people in the regions of the mid-west and west were led to believe by Government spokespersons and Deputies to bear with the process and that it would be all right on the night, that something would be fixed up and some alternative service would be put in place to service the Shannon-Heathrow route. It is time we were told the plan for services from Shannon to Heathrow and not from Shannon to anywhere else. How seriously is the Government taking the deteriorating industrial relations situation in Aer Lingus? Does the Taoiseach intend to use the powers open to him or the relevant Minister under section 38 of the Industrial Relations Act to ask either the Labour Relations Commission or the Labour Court to intervene in that dispute? Can the Taoiseach explain why the Government left the board of Aer Lingus under-representated by the State at a critical period when Aer Lingus was making critical decisions that affect our strategic interests?

Deputy Enda Kenny

Deliberate.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Why were the two directors not appointed at a much earlier stage? Why is it now, only after the horse has bolted, that the two directors are being appointed apparently with a mandate to protect the State's interests in that company?

A Deputy

It is a whitewash.

The Taoiseach

I will respond to the Deputy's three questions. The interests of the business organisations relate to connectivity from London to other destinations. It is not about getting to London as there are flights to Luton, Gatwick and Stansted. Ryanair has announced its intention of increasing its daily flight numbers so there are seven flights per day from Shannon to London and the——

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

My question refers to the Shannon-Heathrow route.

The Taoiseach

I am answering the question. The business groups are not arguing about Heathrow, it is the issue of connectivity. Clearly we would prefer a direct flight from Shannon to Heathrow. In response to the Deputy's question on how we plan to do that, we are assisting the Shannon Airport Authority in a range of discussions, but no company is involved. I do not want to create a grey area on whether we are about to sign up, because we are not. We will do our best to ensure we sign up somebody but it may not be possible.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Where is Willie?

The Taoiseach

In terms of industrial relations, obviously the Government takes a keen interest in any major company with industrial relations difficulties. I have urged both sides to co-operate with each other as it is in their own strategic interests, and their own jobs. The Labour Relations Commission stated this morning that it is available to help, and whether it is necessary to bring in another party or they are best to do it themselves, they have difficulties to resolve which are best resolved in direct negotiations.

On the question of whether the appointment of two board members would have made a difference, the management made its decision and it would not have made a difference. We have made a number of good appointments to the board; we have appointed international figures in the past year or so and it is our intention to continue to appoint people who can play an important role in the future success of Aer Lingus.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I thank the Taoiseach for the early part of his reply which clarifies entirely the position on the Shannon- Heathrow service. It is quite clear from the Taoiseach's reply that the Shannon-Heathrow service is dead.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

All the talk about finding an alternative has simply dried up, particularly with the British Midland decision.

Deputy Dan Neville

A smokescreen.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I interpret the Taoiseach's response to mean that connectivity and not Heathrow is the issue, that the Government is now no longer actively pursuing a service from Shannon to Heathrow.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

That is what it comes down to.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

That is what was said.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

He says you can go to Gatwick and Stanstead and if you want to go to Disneyland they will provide a service to Orlando.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Gilmore is bluffing.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

However, if you want to do business through Heathrow there will not be a service.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

That is not what was said.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Taoiseach, in his reply, stated the Government is abandoning the Shannon-Heathrow route. That is a disgraceful abandonment of regional policy and of the people of the west and mid-west. It is an abandonment of the country's strategic interests as they relate to Aer Lingus.

In his reply to the question about the appointment of the board the Taoiseach said the decision was a management one. What is a board of directors for, if not to supervise what management is doing, make it accountable and direct it where direction is required? If direction was not required on this type of issue where does a board of directors give direction? I cannot think of an issue more strategic to the interests of the country or of the company than the decision made in respect of Shannon. The strategic nature of the decision was flagged by Deputy Cullen, then Minister for Transport, when he identified it as the kind of strategic issue which the State would use its 25% shareholding to protect. The Government did not even appoint a sufficient number of directors to protect the State's interests and the strategic interests of the country when the company was making this decision. The Government abandoned its responsibility for the people and the country's strategic interests in relation to Aer Lingus. The Taoiseach has confirmed that this morning.

People who are planning to book an Aer Lingus flight need to hear something more definite about the plans to settle the current industrial relations difficulties in the company than we heard this morning.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Gilmore should remember from his past that industrial relations difficulties are not solved in Leinster House.

Deputy Dan Neville

Shannon could be.

The Taoiseach

The Labour Relations Commission is available to all sides in the dispute, who are quite capable themselves of dealing with the issues. They know they must resolve the dispute and should deal with the situation.

Deputy Gilmore should also know that the directors of a company will always listen to their senior management.

Deputy Joan Burton

They cannot do so if they are not there.

Deputy Dan Neville

If there is something wrong they should change it.

The Taoiseach

If the senior management is of the view that the executive is doing the right thing and that it will not agree to put commercial obligations on it which it does not believe is right, the board will go along with that.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Does the Taoiseach believe they did the right thing?

The Taoiseach

A board supports the decisions of management. That is how a board works. It is not for management to make decisions on a daily basis only to have the board overturn those decisions.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The Government is represented on the board of Aer Lingus.

The Taoiseach

Fine Gael had time to speak. They should give the Labour Party a chance.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I thank the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

A board supports management decisions. It does not overturn them. The board of Aer Lingus agrees there were difficulties with the commercial realities of the decision.

I have said many times that the loss of the Shannon-Heathrow service is disappointing and that the counties in the wider mid-west region, and along the western seaboard in particular, have difficulties with the decision. Unlike Deputy Gilmore and the Labour and Fine Gael parties, we will not give up.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

We will continue to do all we can to find a way. I am sorry Deputy Gilmore takes the view that because an agreement is not signed and delivered we do not have something on the table today.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Deputy Gilmore asked the question. If the Opposition continues in this way I will simply tell my greater numbers to interrupt Opposition Leaders every time they speak. I tell them to do the opposite.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Does Deputy Gilmore want an answer?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The west would love to hear it.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I will ask my colleagues not to interrupt. However, if Opposition Deputies do not want to listen——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

I will conclude. The Opposition do not want to listen to my answers because Deputy Gilmore's party would like the Government to give up and do nothing to help Shannon. On this side of the House we have always helped Shannon. We have always helped the mid-west and we will continue to do so.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

We are not johnny-come-latelys.