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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 2008

Vol. 665 No. 2

Adjournment Debate.

Tax Code.

I wish to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Joe Carey, who has an interest in this matter. I welcome the opportunity to raise this very important issue. Since the Minister for Finance's call to patriotic duty, proposals contained in his budget have been unravelling one by one. Last week we witnessed the grey revolution, today we witnessed the teachers' revolution and the farmers' revolution is on the way. The ramifications of an ill-thought out budget are coming home to roost.

Another of the Government's pie in the sky proposals is the introduction of a €10 air travel tax for all departing passengers from Irish airports. It is estimated that this taxation measure will raise €150 million in a full year. However, like other budget proposals, no thought was put into the implementation of this levy. The structure of the proposed tax discriminates against airports outside of Dublin. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that passengers departing from Shannon, Cork or Knock Airports will have to travel a greater distance to the UK than those passengers flying from Dublin Airport. However, as we all know, when aviation policy is being decided by the Department of Transport, Shannon Airport is not on the radar. Furthermore, the Government jet is not subject to this tax.

The measure is being implemented as a blunt instrument, in an unfair and inequitable fashion which is not acceptable, particularly at a time when Shannon Airport is already in the spotlight over proposals by Aer Lingus to shed 280 jobs and the tourism industry in the region is in free fall following the axing of the Shannon to Heathrow service. It is baffling as to why Shannon Airport is now expected to take a further hit.

The proposed tax has also placed a cloud over the retention of some of Ryanair's current routes at the airport. This week, Ryanair announced that the tax will reduce passenger numbers from 2 million to 700,000 if imposed in its current format. While Ryanair's motives may have more to do with the fact that its contract at Shannon Airport is up for negotiation in the next 18 months, the fact is that the tax is anti-competitive and must be reviewed.

Ten UK destinations are serviced from Shannon Airport by Ryanair. Approximately 302,000 passengers travelled from Shannon to London in the first six months of this year, a drop of 16% on the same period last year, while a further 254,000 passengers travelled to UK provincial destinations from Shannon during the same period. In comparison, 6.5 million passengers used Dublin Airport to travel to and from various airports in the UK. The majority of these passengers will now only have to pay €2, while passengers who depart from Shannon and other regional airports will have to pay €10. There is no logic to this from an economic or regional development point of view. While it is unfair for Ryanair to hold Shannon Airport to ransom in this fashion, it is particularly unfair to the travelling public who have to vote with their feet and travel from Dublin Airport.

This tax must be altered and I support the suggestion of my colleague, Deputy Michael Noonan, that if the Minister is insisting on introducing this tax, it should be a 300 km coastline tax. Travel to UK destinations from any airport in Ireland should be treated in the same fashion. In other words, the tax should only apply once the flight leaves the Irish coastline. Others have suggested the introduction of a flat rate tax but that would be detrimental to the development of long-haul travel.

I urge the Minister to review the tax. Dublin Airport already has an unfair advantage. There should be a level playing pitch at all airports. Our tourism sector is in free fall and for the sake of the west of Ireland, I urge the Minister to rethink this proposal.

The Minister for Finance, in his wisdom, is trying to tax the airline industry out of existence with a €10 air travel tax. To make matters worse, he is placing Shannon Airport at a disadvantage vis-à-vis Dublin Airport on a number of routes, including Liverpool, Manchester and East Midlands. Ryanair accounts for 60% of traffic at Shannon Airport, with 35 different routes and almost 2 million passengers. The average Ryanair fare is €10 in the winter months and at the stroke of a pen, the Minister has increased such fares by 100% with his proposed new tax. As a direct result of this tax, Ryanair has stated that its €400 million investment in Shannon Airport is in jeopardy.

The new air travel tax is yet another shambolic charge in a shambolic budget. The Minister's travel tax does nothing for tourism, business or job creation. In fact, the tax will weigh heavily on the tourism industry and will cause major job losses in the mid-west. I plead with the Minister not to implement the air travel tax on passengers using Shannon Airport. It will cause utter devastation in Shannon and the mid-west. I ask the Minister to use his common sense on this issue.

I am pleased to take this opportunity to clarify matters relating to the introduction of an air travel tax that the Minister for Finance announced in the budget, which will come into force for passengers departing Irish airports on and from 30 March 2009. The Minister for Finance has answered parliamentary questions on this issue as recently as today.

As has been stated previously, the general rate it is proposed to apply will be €10 per passenger, with a lower rate of €2 for shorter air journeys, that is, those not in excess of 300 kilometres. The Minister decided that a relatively short air journey should attract a lower charge. It is not unusual for the price of fares for longer journeys to be higher than those for shorter journeys and the tax reflects that position. The Minister was also conscious that the tax would apply to both the outward and return journey in respect of domestic flights. In addition, the Minister was cognisant of the greater competition that exists from other forms of travel for that sector, relative to longer flights.

Ireland is not unique in applying a tax on air travel. Many countries within the EU and worldwide apply similar taxes. For example, our nearest neighbour, the UK, has applied a similar tax for over 20 years. The UK applies an air passenger duty of £10 or €12.65 for a standard ticket for any destination in the UK or Europe. For all other destinations the rate is £20 or €25.30. Both these rates double for tickets other than economy class. A new Dutch aviation tax entered into force in July this year. The tax is charged at €11.50 for EU destinations and €45 for other destinations. In France civil aviation tax is charged at approximately €4 for EU destinations and €7 for other destinations. The Belgian Government recently announced its intention to introduce an air travel tax, however the details are not yet available. Further afield, Australia and New Zealand, which like Ireland are very dependent on air travel, also apply departure taxes. The proposed rates for the Irish air travel tax are not unreasonable both for shorter and longer journeys, when compared to rates in other countries.

Passengers are still at a disadvantage.

A person travelling within the UK, for example, will be liable to pay the UK air passenger duty of £10 or €12.65 on each leg of the journey. For example, a passenger departing from Manchester to London will be subject to the £10 tax and on the return journey departing from London to Manchester that passenger will also be subject to the £10 tax, giving a total tax liability of £20 or approximately €25. In Ireland, a person travelling within the State will be liable to pay €2 in tax on each leg of the journey, giving a total tax liability of €4. Furthermore, both the UK and Dutch rates in respect of longer flights are more than two and four times higher respectively than the Irish rate.

The Government acknowledges that low cost travel has been good for Ireland. The pioneers in this area deserve to be commended. However, we must, in analysing the new tax, not overplay its impact. For the purpose of illustration, at present a fare from Shannon to London Stansted Airport that is initially presented as €10 with a similar €10 return fare will actually cost a passenger €85 when all charges are included. This assumes no luggage is checked in, which would cost more. Included in the €85 is a €5 credit card handling fee per flight segment. This latter practice has been the subject of much criticism by consumer bodies. Assuming fares remained the same the price of this trip would rise to €95 on foot of the new tax.

A person flying from London Stansted to Shannon, or indeed from any airport in the UK to Ireland, is already paying, through the airlines, £10 or €12.65 in air passenger duty to the UK Exchequer. Airlines do not appear to have any difficulty in applying the UK air passenger duty.

What about the Dublin to Liverpool route? The Minister of State is being selective.

I am not aware of any airline that has threatened to pull out of the airports at London Stansted, Manchester or Birmingham because of the UK tax. I do not believe those threats should be applied to Irish airports when a more modest charge is applied.

The Minister of State is already over time.

The Government is messing with something that works well.

I am not convinced that the new tax would have a dramatic effect on passenger levels and the suggestion by some that the tax would see fares double for prospective passengers does not present the full picture. In any event, for visitors to Ireland the price of travelling to and from Ireland is only one of the costs they will consider before choosing their holiday destination. General price levels and the availability of reasonably priced quality accommodation will be just as important. I see no competitive displacement. No one who would otherwise use the airports at Cork or Shannon will go to Dublin to save €8. That argument does not stand up.

What if there were four people in a car, 16 people in a minibus or 52 people in a big bus?

The recent spate of failures in the airline sector were the result of the sizable spike in oil prices. Price pressures are now subsiding and fuel costs, which had increased to as much as 50% of some airlines' cost base, are falling dramatically. Airlines benefit from an international tax exemption on jet fuel. The extent of this benefit is illustrated by the fact that tax as a percentage of the price of litre of petrol is up to 60%.

The new tax is estimated to yield some €95 million in 2009 and €150 million in a full year. In the context of the difficult fiscal position the Government now faces, this measure is necessary, not unreasonable and fully justifiable.

The Minister is being selective again. He should could come out of the clouds.

Mental Health Services.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell has permission to raise the matter of the provision of adult day service places at the Daughters of Charity centre for the intellectually disabled in Lisnagry, County Limerick.

It is pronounced Lisnagry — an "i" rather than an "e" sound. I do not wish in any way to——

It is a learning experience to be in the Chair.

The Deputy received many votes in that area.

I should not need to raise this matter again as I first raised it on 1 July 2008. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with responsibility for the disability sector, Deputy John Moloney, was in the House at that time. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Máire Hoctor, but I am disappointed she is present. The Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, should have been in the House this evening. I have made various representations on this matter. The Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, made a commitment during the debate that funding for nine adult day care places for nine school leavers at the Daughters of Charity, Lisnagry, Limerick would be dealt with within ten days, that is by 11 July 2008. Some 120 days later the funding still has not been paid. On 1 July the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, stated:

I understand the Health Service Executive will be able to finalise the position in respect of the commencement of developments including those required to meet the needs of school leavers with disabilities in the next 10 days. I suggest this should be sufficiently strong commitment to reassure the Deputy and all concerned.

I took the Minister of State at his word. I have made various representations on this matter. What has happened with this Government? The service provider, namely, the Daughters of Charity, went ahead and brought in agency workers to provide the service from 1 September. They sought a capital grant of €120,000 to convert a building and make it suitable for providing the adult day care facilities. Work is already under way using funds from the Daughters of Charity mainstream budget which is under pressure. Some two nurses, one supervisor and 1.5 care staff, or 4.5 staff in total, were required. The Daughters of Charity have provided the staff and the facility has been up-and-running since 1 September. Credit is due to the Daughters of Charity and not to the Government. It is a disgrace that I should have to raise this matter again in the Dáil and hold the Minister of State to account, given that such a small amount of money is required. The Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, is not even in the Chamber.

It galls me that the parents of the children came to me as far back as late June to discuss the issue. They were concerned about who would look after their children. The Daughters of Charity were notified on 1 August, more than one month later, that they could proceed and take on the necessary staff. They still have not been told when they will be paid. They recruited the staff, but some three months or 89 days later, the funding is not in place.

In the broader context of funding for the disabled my understanding is that no payment has been made nationally under the disability development fund 2008, for which the Government provided €50 million in 2008. We are into the 11th month of the year and no funding had been paid. The service providers are providing the services from mainstream funding, not from ring-fenced funding for disability services. These service providers are worried that the Government will not provide the funding and when 2009 comes their allocation will be based on actual payments in 2008, rather than the payment to which they were entitled.

The actions of the Government relating to the disability allowance are horrendous and callous. It has taken away the disability allowance and replaced it with a domiciliary care allowance for young adults between 16 and 18 years of age. Parents can ill afford this change and it will cost them more than €13,600. I wish to hear from the Minister of State if funding for the nine school leavers to attend the Daughters of Charity centre has been paid, and if not, that it will be paid immediately.

I take this matter on behalf of my colleague the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. I am pleased to take this opportunity to address the issue raised by the Deputy. It is particularly significant in terms of demonstrating the Government's resolute assurance to support and protect the needs of disadvantaged groups, including people with disabilities within Irish society, despite the impact of current economic restraints.

At the outset, I reaffirm the Government's confirmation and steadfast commitment to both people with disabilities in Ireland and to the national disability strategy and its long-term goals and objectives, which we will continue to pursue in the coming years in partnership with all the key stakeholders. The Government has further emphasised this pledge to people with disabilities by allocating additional funding to the continued development and enhancement of services in this area in 2009. The additional €10 million allocated to the Health Service Executive in this year's budget will provide for 125 additional therapy posts in the disability and mental health services, which will be targeted at children of school-going age. These funds will be ring-fenced for this purpose in the HSE's letter of allocation for 2009.

The commitment to the provision of additional resources in 2009 is reflective of the Government's resolution to continue to build on the significant changes and improvements which have been realised in the sector. In recent years, the Government has provided considerable resources for services and supports in effecting real change in the development of services for people with disabilities. The multi-annual investment programme, which is a key component of the Government's disability strategy, will by late 2008 have provided 980 new residential places, 313 new respite places and 2,505 new day places for the intellectual disability service. For services for people with physical and sensory disabilities, the programme will have provided 300 new residential places and 950,000 extra home care or personal assistance hours.

As part of the national disability strategy's multi-annual investment programme, the HSE has increased the number of day places for people with intellectual disability by almost 1,500 since 2005. In addition, almost 150 day places have had their services enhanced, with the provision of additional supports to deal with school leavers or other adults with significant disabilities. The increase in new and enhanced health and personal social services in recent years has ensured that young people with intellectual disabilities have appropriate services in place, which allows for a smooth transition from secondary school. In some cases, the funding enables the school leavers to access appropriate day services, in line with a person-centred plan. In many cases, this funding provides places for individuals completing rehabilitative training, thereby creating training places for other school leavers.

With regard to the specific matters raised by Deputy O'Donnell, the Minister for Health and Children understands from the HSE that funding for ten day places has been made available from 2008 development funding to the Daughters of Charity. Arrangements for the release of the funding to the Daughters of Charity are currently being finalised by the HSE. This sustained enhancement of service delivery to people with disabilities is confirmation of the Government's objective to develop the disability agenda to a level which compares to the best in the world. Working together with all stakeholders, in a true spirit of partnership, we will continue to build on what has been achieved by the Government's commitment to achieving the common goal of building a true and inclusive society for all.

Boundary Commission.

I am very pleased to see the Minister here and I appreciate that he has taken the time to address this very important issue. However, I am disappointed that he did not attend the meeting organised by Fine Gael in the Mount Herbert Hotel, where we discussed this matter at length with local residents.

I was not invited.

An invitation was certainly issued. I am also disappointed he did not attend the public demonstration on Sandymount Green. Notwithstanding that, I appreciate the fact that he is here, because this is an extremely important issue. It relates specifically to a decision which will have the effect of driving a wedge through the heart of Sandymount, one of the oldest, strongest and most vibrant communities in Dublin city. The decision made in this instance is erroneous and I hope that the Minister will listen to my point and reconsider it.

I find it very disheartening to see terms of reference set out by a Cabinet Minister for a boundary commission which are flagrantly ignored. That is precisely what has happened in the local electoral boundary changes for the Dublin city area. Sandymount is one of the oldest communities in Dublin and epitomises all that is good in community life in an urban setting, especially in Dublin city. It has a great historical wealth that traces back to the Pembroke Estate and is a very important village in Dublin's urban heritage and its cultural fabric. It is a very cohesive community, with a very distinctive geographical and social environment, centred around the green area and along Sandymount Strand.

The reasons for the boundary commission were clear and my party supported them. There was a need to redress the imbalances in local representation around the country. The objective was to redraw the local electoral boundaries, with a view to ensuring a reasonable relationship between the 2006 population and representation within each local authority. My party supports all of this. However, the Minister specifically ordered the Dublin city electoral area boundary committee to respect point No. 3 of the terms of reference. Point No. 3 states that in recommending changes to local electoral areas, the committee should take due account of the desirability of preserving natural communities or the hinterlands of population centres and of the desirability, where it may be possible to do so, of aligning local electoral area boundaries with Dáil constituency boundaries. I contend that the latter part of that point has been observed, but the first part has been flagrantly ignored by the boundary committee.

The objective, as set out in the terms of reference, is to increase the number of public representatives in a particular ward area to no fewer than four and up to a maximum of seven. In exceptional circumstances, three-seat local electoral areas may be recommended where otherwise the geographical size of the electoral area would be disproportionately large. That is fair enough. The terms state that, subject to all this, the committee shall endeavour to maintain continuity in the arrangement of local electoral areas.

Flagrantly ignoring these terms of reference set out by the Minister for the committee will split a community that has been so cohesive into two areas. The community will be represented by four councillors on one side and six councillors on the other side of the boundary. That makes for ten councillors in total, with different area representation for council officials and so on. The contention has been made that this was for cynical electoral reasons for the Green Party. I do not put forward that argument, but I do feel that this will be very divisive for the community in Sandymount.

Terenure was divided into three areas, namely, Rathmines, Terenure-Rathfarnham and Tallaght Central. If the Minister read the submissions and looked at what the residents' associations were saying, he would know that this has been a very divisive experience for the Terenure area. I plead with him not to make the same mistake in the Sandymount area. The people who live there are the people who elected him. He would not be a Deputy, let alone a Minister, if it were not for the people of Sandymount. They have demonstrated on the streets about this and they have shown how badly this will affect them.

At the outset, it might be helpful if I set out the background to this matter for the House.

A review of local electoral areas was necessary prior to the 2009 local elections on account of population changes since the last review in 1998. Accordingly, on 8 January 2008, I announced that I had established two committees to review local electoral areas and I detailed the terms of reference. The committees are independent from the Minister. They do their work based on submissions received and based on their own analysis, and they make their independent recommendations accordingly.

One committee was required to report on Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford City Councils, and on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin County Councils. The other committee was required to report on the electoral areas in counties outside of Dublin, on the borough councils of Drogheda and Sligo and on the town councils of Bray and Dundalk. The committees were required to report as soon as possible, and not later than 20 June 2008.

The Minister should deal with Sandymount. This is claptrap.

Please allow the Minister to continue.

Under the Local Government Act 1991, the Minister is required to publish a report furnished to him by a boundary committee. I received both reports on 16 June and published them the following day. A copy of each report was laid before each House and a copy was sent to each Member of the Oireachtas. In carrying out their work the committees undertook public consultation, which involved inviting submissions by way of notices in national and local newspapers, a dedicated website, and writing to Members of the Dáil and Seanad, as well as members of local authorities and the local authority associations. Submissions received by the committees, as well as their reports, can be viewed at:

www.electoralareacommittees.ie.

Should the Deputy review the submissions made, she will note that my own party made a submission which proposed that Sandymount be kept within a single electoral area.

That is like Fianna Fáil — the Minister is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

In fact, it was a member of the Labour Party who made the only submission which suggested that Sandymount should be split. When publishing the reports on 17 June 2008, I announced that, consistent with long-established practice in respect of constituency formation at European, national and local levels in Ireland, I was accepting the recommendations contained in them. It is my view that to review or seek to amend the recommendations of the committees at this stage, or to seek to second guess their approach to their terms of reference, would undermine the independent and apolitical nature of the process.

There is strong cross-party consensus on the need for an independent, non-partisan approach to constituency revision in Ireland.

If the terms of reference are observed.

The Minister, without interruption.

Recently, the Deputy and her party readily agreed in this House to the recommendations of the constituency commission on Dáil and European constituencies, as set out in the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008. Is she now proposing that we abandon this approach to constituency formation in Ireland and set off on the road back to a time when electoral boundaries appeared to be set according to party advantage?

That is the allegation to which the Minister now lies open. It only suits the Green Party, not the people of Sandymount.

On this side of the House, we are not prepared to do that. I will therefore be making the necessary orders to give effect to the recommendations in the reports as soon as possible. The local electoral areas established by these orders will apply at the 2009 local elections.

Deputy Creighton was relatively measured this evening in her response, but I have seen some of the literature put out by her party. I am disappointed to see that her party has been playing politics with this issue. It was the height of political irresponsibility to organise a public meeting to stir up fears about the boundary change.

It is called democracy, which the Minister has clearly forgotten since he got into bed with Fianna Fáil. Why did the Minister not come to the meeting?

Allow the Minister to conclude.

Some of the comments made at that meeting were libellous. I do not recall any Minister in this House ever rejecting an independent boundary report.

No Minister has been made a fool of, as he has.

Either Fine Gael believes in independent boundary reviews, or it does not.

The Minister has no authority. He is redundant.

Water Quality.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this item, which is of major importance to the people I represent in South Tipperary. I am pleased the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is taking this Adjournment matter. We have been seeking a hearing from the Department, so I am glad of this opportunity to raise the basic issue of a clean water supply for 80,000 people in households in South Tipperary. In a high tax paying economy such as ours, people have a right to clear water supplies.

Several proposals have been put to the Minister's Department concerning various projects around the county. I will start with the countywide conservation scheme of old pipes. People in my constituency have had to endure leaking pipes for a number of years. Invariably, year after year, the situation deteriorates. Week in and week out, my telephone and the telephones of other public representatives are ringing because the water supply has broken down. In places such as Mullinahone the supply has broken down several times a week, so people cannot access tap water. When they turn on their taps there is no water, which is a deplorable situation.

The old water pipes need to be replaced. An application has been made by the county council to the Department, but the council is still awaiting a response. I understand the cost of water projects for the whole county is in the region of €10 million, but water is flowing freely throughout the county underground from leaking pipes. That is not good enough when people cannot access clean water. The Minister should examine this problem as a matter of urgency.

I also wish to raise the large water schemes which are before the Department. At the local elections before last, Fianna Fáil candidates announced that Burncoat and Skehareenka would get a new water supply scheme, but that has still not been delivered. It has been amalgamated with another scheme that is now called the Fethard and Burncoat supply scheme, but those people are still waiting for that scheme to start. We are told by officials of South Tipperary County Council that they are still waiting for a response from the Department. How can people operate in such an environment, waiting for officials to tell them when the scheme can start? People in Burncoat, Skehareenka and Fethard have been waiting over nine years for such a scheme. I would like to have a response from the Minister on that issue.

The Galtee regional water scheme is under major pressure, given the amount of new houses in the various villages that have been built in west Tipperary. People relying on old schemes cannot get tap water due to new housing schemes that have been built in recent years. People in older houses cannot get water due to the pressure caused by new housing. Why is that happening in this day and age? It is deplorable and unacceptable. I am glad the Minister is here to listen to what I have to say, at first hand, about how the people of South Tipperary are being affected.

The Ardfinnan scheme is also awaiting sanction. The Minister has been quoted as saying he wants to cut through bureaucracy, but the red tape involved in the applications before his Department is deplorable. He should cut through that red tape so that next summer those involved will have a decent water supply.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. A significant range of water services projects are being progressed in South Tipperary at present, with the support of unprecedented Exchequer funding from my Department. I am pleased that a record provision of €560 million, an increase of 19% over 2008, will be available for water services in 2009. This is the clearest possible statement by the Government of the priority being given to ensuring that water quality and water supplies are of the highest standard throughout the country.

In the case of South Tipperary County Council, my Department's water services investment programme 2007-09 allows for the investment of €95 million in water and sewerage schemes in the county over the next few years. In addition, I have allocated €1.038 million to the council in the current year under the rural water programme, mainly to improve group water scheme supplies.

Proposals for water supply infrastructure upgrades are being advanced by South Tipperary County Council for a number of locations around the county. These include the Fethard and Burncoat water supply scheme, the Clonmel town and rural water supply scheme, and the Ardfinnan, Galtee and the Dundrum regional water supply schemes. Funding for these projects has been allocated under the investment programme and my Department is committed to responding to the council's proposals as quickly as possible.

In its most recent drinking water report earlier this year, the Environmental Protection Agency identified seven public water supply schemes in South Tipperary that required detailed profiling from catchment to consumer, to determine whether the supplies needed to be replaced or upgraded, or where operational practices needed to be improved. I have already approved special funding for short-term upgrades the council has put forward for five of those particular schemes.

Alongside the extra funding and new infrastructure, I have put in place a new and more rigorous supervisory framework to ensure that good quality drinking water is available and that problems are dealt with quickly and effectively where they arise. Local authority drinking water supplies are now subject to direct supervision by the EPA. All breaches of standards must be reported to the EPA, which will also oversee the local authority's response. In addition to new enforcement powers, I have also given the agency the necessary financial and personnel resources to allow it to discharge its responsibilities vigorously.

I am committed to ensuring that good drinking water quality is at the top of each local authority's priority list. To back this up, I am providing local authorities with funding to upgrade their water supply infrastructure. I have also put in place a fully resourced supervisory framework to ensure that this infrastructure consistently yields the best possible results for the consumer.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 October 2008.
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