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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2012

Vol. 760 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

Fraud Prevention

I am pleased to have the opportunity to raise in the House this afternoon this important matter and I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for being here for the debate. Next week in the House we will discuss extensively the issue of political fraud, and we will read much about it today. I want to focus on a different fraud element which is seeing significant growth with the increase in the use of Internet and on-line purchasing. This specifically concerns card-not-present fraud, commonly known as CNP fraud. This is an increasing problem for Irish companies seeking to remain profitable, to protect jobs, to reach new markets and to grow a business. If a consumer is affected by CNP fraud - often referred to as ATM skimming - as I was this time last year, he or she is entitled to a refund from the bank or credit card company. When my card details were skimmed I got a phone call from the bank to say a suspicious transaction had been identified in Brazil; I was in Ireland and had never been to Brazil and the bank, correctly, stopped the payment.

There are no such protections, however, for retailers. Businesses do not get reimbursed for merchandise sent to fraudulent customers. The payment for these products are often flagged after the event and by this time the items will have been shipped and the retailer is usually left out of pocket. In my case the purchase in Brazil was stopped by the bank but there is no evidence as to whether the criminal activity continued or if the criminal managed to buy other goods.

I acknowledge that the Garda bureau of fraud investigation does excellent work in Ireland on CNP fraud, offering comprehensive prevention advice. However, the feedback I have from a large number of retailers in this country is that the bureau is under-resourced and lacks the equipment to follow up fully when crimes of this nature occur. I understand fully the pressures on An Garda Síochána currently and this is by no means a criticism of the excellent work it does. It is about assisting the Garda and providing the required tools.

Fraudsters are well aware of the points of weakness in the current system and frequently change patterns and delivery addresses to avoid detection. We must strengthen the preventative measures supporting retailers in tackling card fraud. This does not need to be a significant burden on the State and our already overstretched resources. Other countries, including the United States, the UK and most of mainland Europe have introduced what is known as address verification systems. This allows retailers to do a live check to ensure the person using the card knows the address to which the card is registered. This significantly inconveniences criminal elements looking to conduct on-line transactions as it is not enough to simply have the details of a card, as in most circumstances the card address is not readily available from the card. Checks of this nature can support retailers without an undue burdening of either State resources or individual consumers. Items can be still shipped to addresses other than those linked to the card but there are additional checks in place to ensure the transactions are legitimate.

There is a real opportunity to support retailers through the introduction of a similar address verification system for Irish transactions. It is not good enough that we do not have it in this country when so many international competitors throughout Europe, the US and our near neighbours in the UK have it. At a time when the Government is sending out a very strong and important message encouraging businesses to reach out to new markets to grow business, internationalise and export, it is important that we send out a clear message from this House and from the Government that we will do everything possible to support companies, to end fraud and to help firms to be profitable and to create jobs.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter. It is a fact that much of our daily business is now carried out on-line, whether as a retailer seeking to exploit the vast market that is available on-line or as a consumer seeking best value. We have quickly come to appreciate the many benefits of doing our business on-line but we have also had to become increasingly alert to the pitfalls against which we must protect ourselves, including the risk of stolen identity to effect payment card fraud on-line.

Retailers and card issuers will be particularly alert to this form of fraud and the losses to be borne. That there is neither the presence of the card nor the cardholder, and that a personal identification number is not used, means transactions carried out on-line, generally referred to as card-not-present transactions, clearly present an added risk. The Minister understands that the Irish Payment Card Services Organisation, IPSO, estimates that such fraud now represents more than 64% of all fraud carried out on Irish payment cards.

The Minister is sure the House will appreciate that the issue raised cannot be addressed solely through the apparatus of the criminal justice system. It also requires businesses and industry to take a proactive role in ensuring that the operation of payment services systems are secure and that best practice in doing business on-line is promoted to the greatest extent possible to ensure greater protection. The Garda bureau of fraud investigation, GBFI, for its part, regularly offers crime prevention advice with regard to card-not-present fraud as crime trends in this area demand or necessitate, with information provided to alert retailers, industry and the public in general. In addition, initiatives targeting those involved in this type of criminality are frequently undertaken by GBFI.

The payment card and counterfeit currency unit, PCCCU, at GBFI is the designated national unit with primary responsibility for the investigation of payment card fraud in all its guises. Members of the PCCCU work closely with Europol and other European and international law enforcement agencies in targeting groups involved in this type of criminality. Such exchanges of intelligence assist in the targeting of those engaged in this type of criminal activity across jurisdictions. Nationally, the PCCCU liaises directly with the industry through IPSO and the Irish Banking Federation. The PCCCU also works in close association with the national crime prevention office in raising public awareness and delivering crime prevention advice.

The GBFI, together with the card payments industry, continues to promote the use of security features as outlined by the Deputy, including authentication systems among on-line retailers as a proven tool to reduce both losses and risks to the retailer. In the current economic climate, the effect of losses incurred by retailers through on-line card fraud will be further accentuated. There is an onus on retailers to be proactive in this regard and to ensure they avail of all the security and fraud prevention methods that are available. Although not obligatory, the industry has provided solutions through a number of security features and authentication systems that are available to the business community. The idea of a consumer having to provide an address is a very worthwhile security procedure.

I thank the Minister of State.

The rest of the reply will be available to the Deputy.

I thank the Minister of State for her comprehensive response which provided a good overview of the excellent cross-agency work that is being done. While I recognise again that good work is being done by business, the banks and the Garda Síochána, we need to take the next step. The Minister of State referred to the White Paper on fraud which is being produced. I would appreciate if she could pass on the feedback I am delivering on behalf of retailers on the issue of the address verification system. We run the risk of making this issue excessively complicated. A simple technique used in the address verification system works in a number of other countries, including among our competitors. I welcome the Minister of State's acknowledgement that any losses experienced by businesses through fraud are even more painful at present because they are fighting for survival and to retain and create jobs. I ask, therefore, that the Department give extensive consideration to the address verification system.

I agree that we run the risk of making this issue excessively complicated. We are all aware of certain identifiers that are used, for example, prompts to confirm one's address or the maiden name of one's mother. These are simple ways of providing protection. People should note that 64% of fraud now takes place online and they should be extremely careful when using credit cards. I accept that banks have become much more alert about card and identity theft and take a proactive approach to informing customers about fraud. This also needs to be appreciated.

Mental Health Services

I am pleased the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, is present to discuss this issue, on which I have spoken previously. I felt compelled to raise this matter because of the latest report issued by the Health Service Executive which makes very worrying reading. The report shows that almost 250 people aged under 18 years were waiting more than 12 months for mental health services at the end of last year. Demand for services have also increased with referrals to child and adolescent mental health services more than 10% higher in 2011 than in the same period a year earlier.

Under the welcome targets introduced for the child and adolescent mental health teams, 70% of people referred to the service are to be seen within three months. Unfortunately, however, this target is not being met and while the figures are improving, current outcomes are not good enough. A cohort of young people aged between 16 and 18 years fall between two stools because they do not come within the remit of child and adolescent services and are sometimes misplaced in adult services. In some cases, children are detained in adult psychiatric hospitals. I hope this practice will be brought to a definitive end over the lifetime of the Government.

I do not need to tell the Minister of State that a year is a long time in a child's life. Children are being left to cope with difficulties that can hold back their normal development and impact significantly on their education, childhood and future well-being. If they do not receive the services they badly need during this key window in a time of need, it can have serious repercussions for their future development.

In 2011, Barnardos prepared a children's budget in which it noted that community mental health services were slow to recruit staff. I ask the Minister of State to explain the reason for this. In 2010, the child and adolescent mental health service teams had only 41% of the recommended staffing complement. It is shocking that they have less than half the recommended staff level. As of November 2011, some 61 teams were in place nationwide and the resources available for the services were inadequate. The lack of inter-agency co-operation between the child welfare services and juvenile justice system means that highly vulnerable young people continue to slip through the cracks and many opportunities for intervention are missed. As the Minister of State is aware, the earlier the intervention takes place, the better the outcome and the better the life chances for the child in question.

For children living in poverty, access to health care services is hindered by lengthy delays and insufficient resources. Many children wait up to one year for crucial services such as speech and language therapy and developmental checks. I am saddened that child and adolescent mental health services have joined this list. My former colleagues in Barnardos have highlighted circumstances in which children presenting with suicidal thoughts were placed on waiting lists for an appointment with a member of the local mental health team for up to two years. Two days or two weeks can be an eternity for someone in such circumstances, especially a child or young person. A significant improvement is required in this area. This is especially true when one considers that the suicide rate in Ireland for those aged between 15 and 24 years is the fourth highest in Europe. We must all be cognisant of this.

I recently met Dr. Brendan Doody, the director of child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. I was highly impressed by Dr. Doody and do not have any reason to doubt the information he provides. He gathers information on mental health that is not gathered by anyone else. Despite the fact that our child and adolescent mental health service is new, he has gathered information on the service which we do not have for the adult mental health services that have been in place since God was a boy. He receives this information every month. If only we had similar information in areas such as disability, Travellers and so forth as we would have an incredible service and would know where to direct funding. This has been a difficulty in the delivery of services in the past.

I thank Deputy Conway for raising this issue in which she has shown a strong interest. Child and adolescent mental health services need focus. Against a backdrop of reducing resources and increased demand for services, reflected in an increase in child and adolescent psychiatric referrals of almost 10%, the Health Service Executive succeeded in reducing the child and adolescent waiting list by more than 21% in 2011. This clearly highlights the fact that in mental health we are facing the challenges presented and we can and will continue to make improvements and do more with less.

Key to the development of child and adolescent mental health services is the establishment of multidisciplinary teams, of which 61 are currently in place. In that regard, I was pleased to announce a special allocation of €35 million for mental health as part of budget 2012 in line with the programme for Government commitments. Funding from this special allocation will be used primarily to strengthen community mental health teams in both adult and children's mental health services by ensuring, at a minimum, that at least one of each mental health professional discipline is represented on every team. Approximately 400 additional staff will be recruited to support these initiatives.

The Deputy drew attention to the 241 children who have been waiting for more than 12 months for an appointment at the end of 2011. I note this is a reduction of almost 29% on the number waiting at the end of 2010. I assure the House that all referrals received by the child and adolescent mental health service are screened and those deemed urgent are seen as a priority, while those deemed to be routine are placed on a waiting list. I am anxious that children are seen as quickly as possible. For this reason, the national service plan 2012 includes targets that 70% of all new and re-referred cases will be offered a first appointment and seen within three months and no child will wait longer than 12 months for an appointment. I am confident that with the additional resources provided to the child and adolescent service from the special allocation of €35 million, these targets can be achieved.

As Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, I am committed to ensuring the implementation of A Vision for Change. In this context, I am particularly keen to advance service provision for young people. The data shows the HSE made considerable progress in the delivery of child and adolescent mental health services in 2011. I will do all I can to ensure this momentum is maintained in the current year.

I thank the Minister of State for her response. We need to see joined up thinking in trying to tackle this problem, because it is not something that rests solely at her door. We need to see greater integration of services between the Department of Health, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Department of Education and Skills, in order to meet the psychological and emotional needs of our children. This is particularly the case for the most vulnerable group in the 16 to 18 year old bracket.

I welcome the advances that have been made in tackling the waiting times for young people with mental health difficulties. I congratulate the Minister of State, in these very harsh economic times, in being able to secure €35 million for the progression and the further investment in what is a vital component of our health system, namely, the mental health services. I thank her for her response and I look forward to working with her to advance further the needs of our most vulnerable people.

One of the most startling things we have managed to do is to ring fence that money. However, the money in itself would have been useless if we did not manage to get the 414 posts as well. That is what is going to be important.

We are about to reach our target this year in respect of the increase in bed capacity for child and adolescent services, with the opening of eight new beds in Cork, Galway and Dublin, and the 40% decrease in admissions of children to the adult psychiatric services. The compound distress of having one's child admitted to an adult psychiatric unit must be unbearable.

Every single multidisciplinary team will now have one person from each profession. That will be crucially important because until now, I kept hearing that we had 126 multidisciplinary teams or 61 multidisciplinary teams in respect of child and adolescent services, but when we dug deep, we found that they might consist of a psychiatrist and a psychiatric nurse. Having one of each profession in that multidisciplinary team will have the type of effect that we all want. I thank the Deputy for raising this.

Bank Guarantee Scheme

At the outset I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important matter. I also thank the Minister for Finance for coming into the Chamber to reply.

It is fair to say the Minister caught us all unawares last night with his statement in the House, giving us a progress report on the Government's efforts to renegotiate the planned repayment of €3.1 billion at the end of this month in respect of the IBRC promissory note. I hope he takes the opportunity today to clarify the status of that matter right now. I am aware that it was considered by the governing council of the ECB at its meeting this morning. No statement was issued at the conclusion of that meeting and I understand that technical talks are to resume again. Perhaps the Minister might update the House on where the matter stands today, following that particular governing council meeting. Can the Minister say whether he is confident at this stage that a deal can be concluded in advance of the repayment date at the end of the month?

The outline of the deal that he described last night is certainly promising. It is a sign of a breakthrough and it is the first indication of some level of flexibility on the part of the European Central Bank on restructuring this promissory note. Its real value is if it is an interim step towards an overall settlement which will ultimately result in a reduction of the debt burden facing the Irish people in respect of legacy bank debt.

Can the Minister clarify some details of what he outlined to the House last night? How would the process work if such a deal is finalised? What he suggested appeared to relate solely to the repayment due at the end of March 2012. Can he confirm if that proposal represents a template for the overall deal he is hoping to achieve? In other words, will the repayment due at the end of March 2013 fall due for repayment under a Government bond in 2026, the 2014 payment in 2027 and so on? Or is the deal that he outlined last night merely an interim measure, pending the overall deal that he is trying to negotiate? Can he take us through the mechanics of how that would work? The bond he is issuing to IBRC under this proposal will presumably attract an interest rate. Will that be comparable to the interest rate currently being quoted on the secondary markets, or will it be an interest rate on a par with what Ireland is currently being charged as a programme country? I assume the cash outflows under such an arrangement would be that the full €47 billion would still be paid, but also that there would be an interest payment in respect of the Government bonds he is proposing to issue.

Most people watching will be interested to know the impact this deal, if successful, will have on future budgets, on the general Government deficit and on general Government debt levels for Ireland. The interest payments which were due from next year onwards were to be factored into the general Government deficit. If this deal is secured, how much easier does it make the achievement of the fiscal targets in 2013 and beyond? I would be grateful if the Minister could address those points.

During the course of 2009 and 2010, it was determined that Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited and Irish Nationwide Building Society, now together known as Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, required significant additional capital. Of this capital, a total of €4.1 billion was provided in the form of equity, or special investment shares for INBS, and a total of €30.6 billion in the form of capital contributions. The consideration provided by the State for the equity was cash and for the capital contribution was promissory notes.

The promissory notes are effectively an IOU to Anglo Irish Bank and INBS. As there was a debt from the State to the institutions, there was an associated interest charge. This interest rate was set by reference to Government yields at the date that each tranche of the promissory notes were issued. The interest rate had to be referenced from Government yields to ensure the promissory notes were booked at full value as an asset on the IBRC balance sheet, without the need for additional capital.

When the final capital contribution was provided on 31 December 2010, an interest holiday was inserted into each of the promissory notes which meant that between 1 January 2011 and 31 December 2012, no interest was payable. Absent the interest holiday, the weighted average interest rate on these promissory notes would have been 5.8%. However, as a result of the insertion of the interest holiday, the weighted average interest rate from 1 January 2013 is around 8%.

The Government has been committed to reviewing the arrangements that were put in place to capitalise IBRC. The purpose of this review is to determine if there was a way to reduce the overall cost to the State. The troika has been engaged in a process with Irish officials to produce a common paper which will consider all options for re-engineering the notes in terms of the source of funding, the duration of the notes, the interest rate payable and so on.

In tandem with this review, the troika has opened a discussion on how best the Irish banking system and the State can benefit from having further improvements made to certain elements of the banking sector. The overall purpose would be to enhance the position of banks in which the State has a major investment. A number of approaches are under consideration, but it must be emphasised that nothing is agreed at this point.

As already indicated, I have met with Commissioner Rehn and with Mr. Mario Draghi, President of the European Central bank, in this regard. The matter has also been discussed at every opportunity and at various levels in the European arena. As soon as the technical discussions are concluded and the joint paper is available, a more formal and structured approach will be adopted to ensure political support.

The discussions with the European authorities on the general issue continue but we are now negotiating with the EU authorities on the basis that the €3.06 billion instalment due from the Minister to IBRC on 31 March 2012 could be settled by the delivery of a long-term Irish Government bond of equivalent fair value. This settlement process does not involve the variation of any of the terms of the existing promissory notes. The key benefit of these proposals would be to reduce by €3.06 billion the 2012 cash outflow from the State through settling with the delivery of a long-term Government bond.

While this development in relation to the March payment would be positive, we must keep our eye on the greater benefits that would derive from the re-engineering of the promissory note and the potential improvements for the continuing banking sector which could also stem from the ongoing technical discussions. It is for these reasons that we must look at the recent developments as an initial step to facilitate a project where, if we are successful, it would be in the medium term rather than immediately.

The Government always committed to informing the Dáil about any development concerning the payment of the promissory note at the end of this month. I brought the Dáil as up to date as possible last night and I cannot add anything further at this time.

I thank the Minister for his reply and I understand he feels somewhat constrained in putting further information into the public domain but there are certain things he can confirm. Can he confirm that the deal, which he outlined last night, is in effect a stepping stone towards an overall deal rather than a deal on a stand-alone basis, in other words, that he is trying to park the 2012 payment, pending a conclusion of the overall discussions on the redesign of the promissory note? He could at least confirm that much.

Following the governing council meeting today - I expect the Minister had hoped it would have signed off on this deal but it did not - is he still confident a deal can be finalised before the end of the month to avoid the repayment of the €3.06 billion during that timeframe? Can the Minister give us any sense of the shape of the overall deal he is trying to negotiate? Is it the case that he is seeking to re-finance the promissory note liability through the issuance of long-term Government bonds, which will yield some short-term cashflow benefits but will not reduce the overall level of debt burden, or has he put the question of reducing the outstanding level of debt on the table with the ECB and, if so, what has been the outcome?

The Minister can take this opportunity to update the House and inform the Irish people as to whether he is confident at this point that the payment due at the end of March of €3.06 billion can be avoided? Clearly, progress has been made and I welcome that. I hope the Minister can get it over the line because it would give us some essential breathing space to conclude a more comprehensive deal to reduce the burden of bank debt this country is currently carrying. I wish him well in that regard but he can take this opportunity to give us further details.

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. I am quite constrained in what I can say but I would like to keep the House informed. At the conclusion of these talks I will come back to the House and give the Deputy all the details to which he is entitled as a finance spokesperson of an Opposition party.

I can confirm that the principal agenda item is to negotiate an overall settlement to have an alternative to the promissory note, which would be less onerous on the Irish taxpayer, and that work is proceeding. What commenced as an Irish request is now being converted into a euro-IMF position paper but of course the decision will be political. As I said in my script, when we get the common agreed paper, we will have to move on and get political support behind it and we will have a more structured approach, through diplomatic channels, to getting that political support.

While what is happening at the end of the month is important, it is not the main game. The terms of it will not necessarily influence the design of what we are aiming for. In other words, it is not a template, as the Deputy remarked. Beyond that, I cannot help the Deputy.

Is the Minister hopeful of a deal before the end of the month?

I am as hopeful as I was last night. I am constrained because negotiations have been proceeding both here and in Frankfurt today but as well as that I have spent four hours in the Seanad dealing with the Finance Bill and I have only now got to this House to deal with this issue. I am sure I would have got a note advising me if anything adverse had occurred. My understanding is that matters are proceeding.

The Minister was not disappointed with today's meeting; he was not expecting an outcome from it.

No. I was not expecting a statement, which is different. I cannot really go beyond that but as soon as I am not constrained I will give the Deputy the full information either in a private briefing or here in the House.

I thank the Minister for that.

The fourth Topical Issue is in the name of Deputy Ellis regarding the effect of cuts in capital funding to the Travelling community, particularly for families in Avila Park, Finglas, Dublin. As the Minister, Deputy Hogan, is delayed in the Seanad, I will arrange for the Deputy's issue to be taken first during the Topical Issues Debate next Tuesday. Is that agreeable to the Deputy?

Yes. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for that.

I propose to suspend the House until 4.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 4.15 p.m. and resumed at 4.30 p.m.
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