Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 May 2012

Vol. 765 No. 5

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

This morning, the board of Tallaght hospital is meeting to consider the impact of a 300 page report by the Health Information and Quality Authority on safety at the hospital's emergency department. I understand a press conference will be held at 12 noon, before the report is laid before the House. Comments by the Dublin County Coroner last year, following his examination of the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr. Thomas Walsh, appalled everyone. Mr. Walsh was a 65 year old man who died after being placed in a hospital corridor as a result of overcrowding. Shockingly, the coroner asked whether it would be safer for patients to stay at home rather than attend the accident and emergency unit in Tallaght hospital.

Since the death of Mr. Walsh, the practice of keeping patients on trolleys in corridors was to cease, particularly in Tallaght hospital. Will the Tánaiste confirm that this has been the case and no patients have been kept on trolleys in the hospital? Will he outline if the recruitment moratorium is having a greater impact on Tallaght hospital than other hospitals?

Reports in the media this morning indicate the HIQA report will have consequences for all accident and emergency wards. Will the Tánaiste assure the House that investment will be made to implement the recommendations of the report and ensure the safety of patients in accident and emergency units in Tallaght hospital and elsewhere? If a ban is imposed on keeping patients on trolleys, accident and emergency departments will automatically require more staff to ensure patients receive the type of care they need when they attend hospital. Last Thursday, the Tánaiste took great pride in outlining to the House the reduction achieved in the number of trolleys in accident and emergency departments this year. So far this year, 26,000 patients have been treated on trolleys in our accident and emergency wards. In Beaumont Hospital, one of the largest hospitals in the country, the figure has increased. Is it intended that HIQA will visit Beaumont Hospital? Will the Tánaiste assure the House and members of the public that the Government has a plan to ensure our accident and emergency wards are made safer for patients and that they will no longer have to wait on trolleys when they attend hospital to receive care in a time of need?

The Tánaiste

Today, the Health Information and Quality Authority published its report of the investigation into the quality, safety and governance of the care provided by Tallaght hospital for patients who require acute admissions. The investigation followed the death of a patient, Mr. Thomas Walsh from Kilnamanagh in Tallaght, who died at the hospital in March 2011 while in a corridor awaiting a bed. I offer my deepest sympathy to the families involved. I know the loved ones in this case will find the publication of the report traumatic.

Patients in all of our acute hospitals need the assurance that this matter is being addressed in an effective manner, lessons have been learned and quality assurance systems are being implemented across the hospital system. At the heart of the HIQA investigation are very serious matters about patient safety, how hospital services should be managed and provided and the manner in which we ensure our acute hospital system, including Tallaght Hospital, is safely and properly managed.

Many changes have already taken place in Tallaght hospital. The practice of leaving patients waiting for admission on trolleys in a corridor adjacent to the emergency department was clinically unsafe and completely unacceptable and has been stopped. The Health Information and Quality Authority wrote to the Minister for Health last November arising from its concerns about the deficits in governance and management at the hospital. As a result, a new interim board chaired by Sir Keith Pearson was appointed last December and a new chief executive officer is in place who is building a new management team, including clinical leadership.

The Minister will study the report with great interest and is determined its recommendations will be implemented as a matter of urgency. As I stated, many changes are already under way in Tallaght hospital and I understand this is acknowledged in the HIQA report. The staff of the hospital have an important role to play in responding to the challenges ahead and restoring and nurturing the hospital to achieve its potential. I ask the local community to support them and the hospital as they face the challenges ahead.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is not a wonder that our accident and emergency wards are under pressure when up to 66,000 people left the private insurance system last year and up to 2,000 hospital beds remain closed. The HIQA report published today appears to have implications for every other accident and emergency unit. I seek an assurance from the Tánaiste that the resources and staff required to meet the needs of those who visit our accident and emergency departments in their time of greatest need will be provided. For a coroner to ask if it would be safer for people to stay at home than to visit an emergency department and to wonder aloud if accident and emergency units are dangerous places is not acceptable. We need a commitment from the Tánaiste that accident and emergency departments will be effectively staffed and beds will be made available in order that people are no longer required to wait on trolleys. It is unacceptable that such a scenario awaits people attending our hospitals.

The Tánaiste

First, changes have already been made in Tallaght. The practice of people being on trolleys in a corridor near the emergency department has been ended.

Deputy Robert Troy

They are on trolleys in wards instead.

The Tánaiste

Since this occurred last year, there have been big changes in Tallaght Hospital. The board has been replaced, there is a new chairperson and CEO and there is a new regime in the hospital. Very big changes have been made in Tallaght Hospital itself.

Second, with regard to the wider issue of trolleys, when people present to a hospital and need to get treatment, they should be able to get a bed. That is the objective. We have had a pattern of people being kept on trolleys for far longer than they should be.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They should not be on trolleys at all.

The Tánaiste

The Government and the Minister for Health, through the special delivery unit, SDU, has been driving down the number of people on trolleys. There has been a reduction of 17% in the number of people on trolleys throughout the country. In the greater Dublin area the reduction is 23%. A system is in place whereby the number of people on trolleys is assessed every day.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The figure is 26,000 in the first four months of this year.

The Tánaiste

There are not 26,000. The Deputy should not use false figures.

Deputy Robert Troy

We do not need figures. We can see the situation at first hand.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Tánaiste is a waffler.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should allow the Tánaiste to reply.

The Tánaiste

The number of people on trolleys is being reduced.

Deputy Robert Troy

They are being put in cupboards and pushed out of the way.

The Tánaiste

The number of people on trolleys is submitted to the SDU three times every day. The number today, for example, is 275, compared with 368 on this day last year.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Yesterday, the Minister for Finance made headlines, as he is adept at doing with his soundbites. He told us the economy is in a better position than this time last year-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is no doubt about that.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

-----and that the only effect of a Greek departure from the euro would be less feta cheese in our shopping baskets.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

He said no such thing.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Many people listening to the Minister yesterday would not recognise the economy he was talking about. Life in the real economy, for the 440,000 people on the live register, the 1,500 people who emigrate every week and the 91 people who fall into mortgage distress every day, has got harder. Five austerity budgets have seen the living standards of the majority of people drop dramatically, and the Government is set to continue on this path. The austerity treaty will make life harder for these people as a result of harsher levels of austerity after 2015.

Does the Tánaiste accept the Central Statistics Office figures that show that GDP declined in the last two quarters of 2011? Does he accept that, on the basis of these figures, the economy is now officially back in recession? Does he accept that his policies are failing and leading to emigration, unemployment and mortgage distress? Finally, does the Tánaiste share the contention of the Minister for Finance that the only impact of a Greek departure from the euro would be less feta cheese for the Irish?

Deputy Ann Phelan

He did not say that.

Deputy Noel Harrington

That was a great audition for the leadership.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

He has not too many followers this morning, though.

The Tánaiste

I accept that the country is in a very difficult economic situation, and has been for some time. Everyone who has lost a job, whose business has gone bad or is having difficulty paying a mortgage or making ends meet knows that. There is only one thing we have to do, and that is to work our way out of the situation. To do that we must, first, get our economy to grow again, and it is growing. There was growth in 2011 and there is projected growth for this year and next year, for the first time in four years. We have to get people to invest in the economy and we are succeeding in doing that. Since the beginning of this year we have seen jobs announcements. About 1,000 jobs per month were announced by investors who have decided this is a good place to invest. We are seeing it again today. Yesterday, Rehab announced a significant number of jobs. There will be more jobs announcements in Galway today.

We must ensure investors and people who are thinking of investing in the country maintain confidence in the country. To do that, they must be sure we have a stable currency and our relationship to the euro is safe. That is why the Government is asking people to vote "Yes" to the stability treaty on 31 May.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Stability for Germany.

The Tánaiste

Sinn Féin's fairytale economics will drive us in the direction of Greece. We have seen what is happening in that country. There are consequences. We are seeing 30,000 people in the public sector about to lose their jobs in that country and reductions in pensions and pay of the order of 20%. We must take the route towards recovery.

Deputy Doherty talks about austerity. No one wants austerity.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Then why is the Government implementing austerity?

The Tánaiste

We want to work our way out of it. The problem is that Sinn Féin's fairytale economics will result in far more austerity for the people of this country.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Government has to have a bogeyman.

The Tánaiste

The opposite will result from the sensible decision to support the stability treaty and build growth measures on it, like those Deputy Howlin has been talking about this morning and those I hope will emerge from the European summit on 23 May.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Where are the growth measures the Tánaiste is talking about?

Deputy Finian McGrath

All the money will go to Mayo. Deputy Ring will see to that. What about the north side?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies please allow the Deputy to ask the question and the Tánaiste to reply to it? Deputy Doherty, I will protect your right to ask a supplementary question for one minute, and I will protect the Tánaiste's right to answer it.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

A reply would be helpful. The Tánaiste does not want to acknowledge that the CSO has said we are officially back in recession. What is happening in Greece is symptomatic of the failure of the policy of austerity, which is the same policy the Government is pursuing with gusto.

Deputy Noel Harrington

What about Northern Ireland?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

People know from their own real life experience that austerity is not working. The Tánaiste, the trade unions and the Labour Party's own supporters know that austerity has not and will not work. Sinn Féin has argued consistently that we need investment and stimulus to get people back to work.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

This can be funded by the National Pensions Reserve Fund, the European Investment Bank and the private pensions industry. The Tánaiste wants to sell off profitable State assets at some time in the distant future. He also wants to cut €7.2 billion from the capital budget over the lifetime of the Government. It is now that people need investment in jobs.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Is the money going to fall out of the sky?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Does the Tánaiste agree that the Minister for Finance would be better advised to talk about the real economy rather than engaging in soundbites about turning corners, when the reality is that we have not?

The Tánaiste

What is happening in Greece is what would happen in this country if we were to follow the fairytale economics of Sinn Féin.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

It is no fairytale.

The Tánaiste

There is no point in talking about what might happen after 2015. The problem Sinn Féin would land us in would present itself at the end of next year, when we would arrive at a point where, because Deputy Doherty's leader says we should tell the IMF to go home and take its money with it, we would no longer get money from the IMF. He said we should default on our debt such that we would not get back into the markets. One week he said he wanted to veto the ESM and the next that he wanted to borrow money from it.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

We are renegotiating.

The Tánaiste

The problem with Sinn Féin-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Tánaiste should answer the question.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy should listen to the answer.

The Tánaiste

The answer-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Deputy Pearse Doherty does not like it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste should please proceed without help.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There is more egg on Deputy Pearse Doherty's face that Feta cheese.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

He does not like the answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste should be allowed to speak without interruption, please.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is definitely cheese.

The Tánaiste

The essential answer to the country's economic difficulties is that we must have investment to create jobs. There are a number of ways-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Exactly.

The Tánaiste

We are not going to solve this problem.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I agree that the Government is not going to solve it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies, please, stop interrupting?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Deputy Pearse Doherty is not on the back of a lorry now. This is serious business.

The Tánaiste

The country has a serious problem which must be solved. It is not going to be solved by shouting at it or heckling-----

A Deputy

Or by protests.

The Tánaiste

-----it is going to be solved by serious hard work on the part of the Government in getting investors to come to the country. They must have confidence in it, which is why we must pass the stability treaty. We must do the kind of things about which the Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, spoke where we establish measures to stimulate the economy, harness money in the National Pensions Reserve Fund, use European Investment Bank money, adopt the approach the Government is taking in talking to the private pensions industry about investing in the country, add to the €17 billion already committed by the Government to a public capital programme-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It has been cut by €7 billion.

The Tánaiste

-----to create the jobs and make the investment necessary. The problem with Sinn Féin is that it keeps changing its mind to suit whatever suits its political agenda. What the country needs to do is get people back to work and the economy moving again.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Did the Tánaiste learn that in the past 18 months?

The Tánaiste

That is what is in the country's interests. This is a moment when all of us in the House should be putting the country's interests first, rather than seeking to take party political advantage of the crisis and difficulties facing the people face and the country.

Deputy Shane Ross

In response to what the Tánaiste said to Deputy Pearse Doherty I would like to make a constructive suggestion-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Does the Deputy have an announcement to make?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Has he checked it with Deputy Finian McGrath?

Deputy Shane Ross

-----and to test the Tánaiste's response to it. As the House will know, on Tuesday the Referendum Commission ruled that there could be no delay under the 1994 Referendum Act in holding the referendum on the fiscal treaty, to which the Tánaiste has pledged himself and his party.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Deputy should make up his mind.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Has the Deputy made up his?

Deputy Shane Ross

That is absolutely and legally true. In response I have a very short Bill to propose to the House in proposing to the Tánaiste-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brian Hayes

Act 1, scene 2.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is the "Sitting on the Fence" Bill 2012.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I cannot hear Deputy Shane Ross.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but will Members, please, allow Deputy Shane Ross to speak?

Deputy Shane Ross

I have a very short Bill-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I remind the Deputy that there is a procedure to be gone through in regard to the Bill on the Order Paper.

Deputy Shane Ross

I propose - not compel - the Tánaiste and the Government, if it sees fit to do so, change the date if events overtake what is happening in respect of the treaty.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy means he has not yet made up his mind - the agony and the ecstasy.

Deputy Shane Ross

I say to the Tánaiste-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies ever stay quiet? If they cannot do so, they should leave the Chamber.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I cannot hear.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Deputy Mattie McGrath cannot hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I cannot hear my leader and I have good hearing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Shane Ross, please, proceed without interruption?

Deputy Shane Ross

Such a Bill would take one or two days to pass through this House and the Seanad. It would give the Government the facility, if it wished to do so and events changed, to postpone the referendum on the treaty to a relevant date.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

That would be great for stability.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but Deputy Shane Ross is over time.

Deputy Shane Ross

I will put one good reason to the House as to why this should happen.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Where is the positive suggestion?

Deputy Shane Ross

According to an opinion poll today in which the Government comes out on top, a large number of people - 35% - are either confused or do not know what the situation is and wish to have it clarified.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The "Vote Maybe" Bill.

Deputy Shane Ross

It is very important-----

An Ceann Comhairle

May I have a question, please?

Deputy Shane Ross

It is very important that there be clarity, by delaying events if necessary.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The position is clear.

Deputy Shane Ross

The reason people do not know the answer is they are unclear, not only on the treaty because-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is way over time. Will he, please, resume his seat?

Deputy Shane Ross

As everyone in the House knows, it is about-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not ask the Deputy again to resume to his seat.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

A procedure must be gone through. I have before me an official request on the Order Paper for leave to introduce a Bill which will be dealt with later. It is up to the House to decide and the Government whether it will accept or reject it. Will the Tánaiste, please, be conscious of this in replying to the debate?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The "Humpty Dumpty" Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Then you all fall down.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Is Deputy Finian McGrath Dumpty or Humpty? Which one is he?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

A Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy, please, take a pill for the moment?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Excuse me, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Stop getting excited.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I could not even hear Deputy Shane Ross.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know, but the Deputy is getting excited.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I did not know you were a medical doctor.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, I am just advising the Deputy to stay quiet.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You should not make fun of me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not insulting the Deputy at all.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You were.

An Ceann Comhairle

I presume the Deputy has not lost his sense of humour.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I have not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Good.

The Tánaiste

The Referendum Commission has made it clear that it is not possible to postpone the referendum. Second, it would not be a good idea to postpone it because what the country needs is certainty, not indecision. All of us, as individual citizens, will have a decision to make on 31 May. We will have an opportunity to make a strong statement that, as a country, we are certain about the euro; that we want to have stability; that we want investors to have confidence in the country; that there is no question about the country's relationship with the euro, and that we want to have access to emergency funding should we ever need it. There will be certainty when the people make a decision on 31 May. I do not intend, therefore, to accept Deputy shane Ross's Bill. It is a rather extreme measure to avoid a situation where he cannot make up his mind on where he stands on the treaty. I was in his constituency on Saturday-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

The game is changing every 24 hours. It could be a game-changer.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I hope Deputy Finian McGrath is not playing in it.

The Tánaiste

-----where I met many voters who could not understand why he was not supporting the Government and the treaty, which is the right and sensible thing to do. I acknowledge that many have yet to make a decision on how they will vote in the referendum.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is a legitimate position to take.

The Tánaiste

That is why the Government has made more information available on the treaty than was made available on previous treaties. An information campaign is under way to inform people about the contents of the treaty. Between now and voting day my colleagues in the two parties in government and I, supported by others, will be seeking a "Yes" vote from every individual citizen because it is the right thing to do in the national interest.

Deputy Shane Ross

I welcome the Tánaiste to the constituency. I was in Paris last week when I met many people who were wondering why he had to go to that city to do an interview for "Morning Ireland". It seems the person he had gone to see, Mr. Hollande, had fled to Tulle when he had heard the Tánaiste would be coming.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

Deputy Ross was given the guided tour.

Deputy Shane Ross

Why will the Government not partake of the facility available to it to change the referendum date if events overtake it? In fact, events are overtaking it by the day. One month from today, 17 June, is a key date, with elections taking place in France which will, whether the Government likes it, affect the austerity treaty, as it is called here, or the fiscal treaty as it is called by others. Also on 17 June an election will take place in Greece. These events are epoch-shaking, yet the Government is insisting they will not affect the fiscal treaty in any way. Will it take on itself the power to facilitate the events that will make the treaty irrelevant?

The Tánaiste

First, as the referendum commission has made clear, it is not possible to postpone the referendum.

Deputy Shane Ross

Yes, it is.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must allow the Tánaiste to speak.

The Tánaiste

Second, it would not be a good idea to do so. What the country needs, at a time of uncertainty in Europe, particularly in Greece, is for individual citizens to make a clear statement that we want stability and certainty. Every individual citizen will have the opportunity on 31 May to make a very clear statement in the privacy of the ballot box that we want a stable Europe. It will be an opportunity to state our desire for certainty about our own future in terms of emergency funding and certainty and stability in order that investors will have the confidence to continue investing in Ireland and thus create jobs and allow the economy to recover. I do not hold the idea that we should stand back and wait to see what way the wind is blowing. What does Deputy Ross expect investors would do in such a scenario? I was at a meeting yesterday morning organised by American Chamber of Commerce Ireland and attended by 100 senior executives of American companies investing in the State. What kind of report would they send to headquarters were I to tell them that we were postponing the referendum to wait to see how the wind was blowing? If we take that approach, investors will do exactly the same. We must have certainty and stability in order that there will be investment in this country. What has happened in France is something the Government welcomes because it contributes to the growth agenda and promoting job creation in Europe. That is very much in harmony with what we are doing in order to promote growth and provide a stimulus in the domestic economy, with a view to getting more people into work, allowing the economy to recover and making this a better country.