Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2022

Vol. 1030 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Employment Rights

Deputy Mick Barry

"Unfortunately, we have closed the shop in Blackpool. There won't be any need for any staff member to attend work from now on. You will be contacted by people as regards how to claim your redundancy and all the other bits and pieces. Thank you for your service over the years. Kind regards, Sean Nyhan".

This is the text message that was sent to a Butcher's Block manager in the middle of the night last Friday night-Saturday morning, informing workers - some of whom had 20 years of service - that their jobs were gone five weeks before Christmas. What does the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, make of that? What the ex-employer described as "all the other bits and pieces" include back pay, holiday pay, and time in lieu. I spoke to one couple who both work there. They are owed approximately €1,500 in back pay and holiday pay. This is outrageous treatment from the former employer.

This situation is compounded by the outrageous inaction of the Minister of State's Government. Why is it that one and a half years after the Debenhams strike the Government has failed to pass legislation to improve workers' rights in a liquidation situation? Why might these workers have to go down the queue to get what is owed to them in a liquidation? When will the Government support the passage of the Companies (Protection of Employees’ Rights in Liquidations) Bill 2021 - known as the Debenhams Bill - through the Houses of the Oireachtas?

There has been an outpouring of sympathy and solidarity from the ordinary people of Cork to these workers. What has happened to these workers has rung alarm bells for other workers - and by the way, the shops that will close are not just the ones in Cork, they are in Dungarvan and in the midlands also. This needs to ring alarm bells for other working people. It is no great secret that a recession is on the way. It is no great secret either that the way these workers have been treated is far from exceptional. It is only a couple of weeks since we saw one of the biggest names in international capitalism, namely Twitter, get a new owner. The richest man in the world, Mr. Elon Musk - the man who wants to colonise Mars - sacked workers in that company by way of an email. Those workers were sacked by email and then a couple of weeks later we have these workers being sacked by way of a text message. This is becoming more common.

What we need, and what I advocate, is not just improved legislation for workers' rights - pass the Debenhams Bill - it is for workers themselves to prepare for the coming recession. Given the type of hard-nosed employers we are dealing with in these situations the message from me to workers is the same as the message that was necessary ten years ago, 20 years ago, and 100 years ago: organise, organise, and organise again.

Tonight, however, I want to put the spotlight on the Government and the question of legislation and why there is not sufficient legislation there to protect fully these workers.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Frankie Feighan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue. It was raised in the Dáil this morning too.

I extend my sympathies to the workers in the Butcher's Block, who are now suddenly facing job losses. The way in which this was handled was cold and lacked compassion. It is no way to treat hardworking, loyal workers. We have to protect and support workers. The Government and I appreciate how difficult this situation is for those involved and their families, particularly at Christmas time.

The Government is acutely aware of the difficulties businesses have faced in recent times. The financial assistance provided during the pandemic was unprecedented. The Government continues to support businesses, especially in the context of higher business costs, particularly energy costs. Budget 2023 introduced a package of new measures to help businesses across a wide range of sectors to deal with rising costs. Those measures include the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, the Ukraine credit guarantee scheme, the Ukraine enterprise scheme and the new growth and sustainability loan scheme. All these actions are focused on supporting continued employment.

Where businesses close, Ireland has a robust suite of employment rights legislation to protect and to support workers. By law, it is the employer's responsibility to pay statutory redundancy and other outstanding wage-related entitlements to workers. Where an employer is genuinely unable to pay these entitlements due to financial difficulties or insolvency, the State provides a safety net and may make the payments on the employer's behalf from the Social Insurance Fund.

The Protection of Employment Act 1977 imposes certain legal obligations on employers proposing collective redundancies, including an obligation to engage in an information and consultation process with employees' representatives and to provide information on the proposed redundancies. Those obligations apply where more than 20 workers are employed and depending on the number at risk of redundancy. The proposed collective redundancy must be notified to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. There is no obligation on the employer to notify the Minister of proposed redundancies outside the parameters of collective redundancy legislation. However, under the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Act 1973, employers must provide employees with statutory periods of minimum notice, which vary depending on the length of service.

The Workplace Relations Commission is the organisation mandated to secure compliance with employment rights. Employees have the right to refer complaints to the commission on a wide range of employment law breaches, including those relating to statutory minimum notice, for adjudication and compensation where appropriate.

I assure the Deputy that the Government will work in a co-ordinated way to assist these workers. The Department of Social Protection will assist in respect of income supports and employment and training opportunities.

Again, I extend my sympathies to the workers in the Butcher's Block. As I said, the way this was handled was clumsy and cold and lacked compassion.

Deputy Mick Barry

I asked the Minister of State a question and, in response, he read out a prepared script. The script dealt with many different points but did not deal with the core question I asked him, so I will use my time to go back over that.

The response he gave states that if push comes to shove, the State will pay statutory redundancy to the workers who have lost their jobs in Cork, Dungarvan and the midlands. However, I asked him not just about statutory or minimum redundancy but also what happens to the holiday pay and back pay due to these workers and what happens to the tip jars that belong to them. The workers, when they got the text message on Saturday morning, passed on by the manager, hurried down to the shops. They could not get in because the shops were shuttered and locked up. The locks had been changed. By all appearances, the places had been cleaned out. What was on the counter, including the workers' tip jar, was no longer there. Talk about cold and callous. What is the story there?

As for the key question I am asking the Minister of State, he pointed to the Social Insurance Fund, but the liquidation laws state that there are those other than the workers who are first in the queue for access to that fund and if there is not enough money in the kitty to deal with such situations, the workers will lose out on what I regard as entitlements, what should be their entitlements and what would be their entitlements if the Debenhams Bill was passed. The question I am asking the Minister of State, therefore, is when the Government will ensure that legislation or equivalent legislation is passed in order that workers can vindicate their rights in redundancies, rather than facing the situation that the Debenhams workers faced and that now threatens the workers in the Butcher's Block.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

The Deputy has outlined many different issues, including the tip jars, holiday pay and back pay. I will bring those concerns to the Minister.

The Debenhams Bill, or legislation like it, does not come under the remit of my Department, but I will bring the Deputy's suggestion to the Minister.

The Government appreciates the impact this dispute has on the affected workers, and the Minister is disappointed by the suddenness of the announcement. For its part, the State will do all it can to support the workers at this most difficult time. We will ensure that eligible employees receive statutory redundancy and other outstanding wage-related entitlements from the Social Insurance Fund. As the Deputy will be aware, under the redundancy payment scheme, an eligible employee is entitled to two weeks' statutory redundancy payment for every year of service plus a bonus week, subject to a ceiling of €600 per week. In insolvencies, entitlements covered under the insolvency payments scheme include outstanding arrears and wages, holiday pay and payments in lieu of minimum notice, subject to certain limits.

Finally, the Department of Social Protection is aware of this issue and is available to assist these workers. I urge all those who are affected to contact their local Intreo centres for advice and support.

As I said, the Deputy has raised a lot of issues and I will bring them back to the Minister.

Hospital Facilities

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I acknowledge that we had a bit of news on this issue earlier in the week, in an article featured in the Irish Examiner, courtesy of Danny McConnell, who is sitting above us. The early indications coming out of the announcement seem to suggest the confirmation we have all been looking for in Cork North-Central. Deputy Barry opposite and all the Deputies in Cork North-Central - well, many of us - have been fighting the corner for this hospital to be located in Glanmire, and it now appears that will be the case.

We have all had the debate on the preferred site, as I said, over the past 12 months, if not longer. An existing mental hospital in Sarsfield Court is being used currently. There are more than 100 acres, which will allow for future expansion. There are many positive attributes to the site, with it being so close to the motorway, which, in the future, if it is developed, will lead to greater accessibility for patients and users. We have sung the praises of the Sarsfield Court site for many months now, and it seems we are coming to a close on this issue. I believe that it will be finalised before Cabinet next Tuesday or Wednesday. All that is looking positive. The new hospital will include nine operating theatres, seven endoscopy suites and six outpatient diagnostic suites and, when operational, will have a staff complement of approximately 300. All that is being delivered by the Government as we build towards a future Sláintecare model.

I will quote the phrase the Taoiseach used the other day in the Dáil, which featured in the same article in the Irish Examiner. He said we need to take this issue "by the scruff of the neck".

On many occasions, when it comes to large items of infrastructure and the national development plan, the Taoiseach has told the House that it is all about delivery. What we need to see is no more speculation about this. We need to see a decision. We need to see it progress through tender and planning and see it delivered as quickly as possible. There is speculation that the hospital will be delivered as early as 2027 or 2028. When we are speculating we should remember that the best way that the Government can facilitate that kind of timeline is in the upcoming review of the Planning Act, which is being led by the Taoiseach's office and the Attorney General. In that legislation, we need to see the provision for large-scale strategic infrastructure like this so that it can be treated expeditiously and in a streamlined manner so we can get on with taking it by the scruff of the neck, as the Taoiseach said, and with delivering it. There are a number of capital projects in the Glanmire area. The flood relief scheme has been well spoken about in here in recent months. That has been slowed down because of difficulties in planning initially that went on for an awfully long time. Most recently, the cost of building materials and inflationary pressures has set back the project by some months. Happily, it is back on track for maybe March-April next year.

If the Government is serious about these hospitals, not just in Cork but also in Limerick and Galway, then we need to see delivery not only on the ground but in the legislation that is meant to come before us in the next couple of weeks to reform the Planning Act which will facilitate those large infrastructural projects.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

The cross-party Sláintecare report of 2017 articulated a new vision for healthcare, including the provision of elective-only hospitals, providing protected capacity for elective care. This policy has also been informed by a number of subsequent policy documents and Government decisions including the 2017 Sláintecare report, the Sláintecare implementation strategy 2018, the national development plan 2018, the programme for Government 2020, the Sláintecare implementation strategy and action plan 2021-2023 and finally the new national elective ambulatory care strategy which was agreed by Government in December 2021.

This new strategy aims to change the way in which day cases, scheduled procedures, surgeries, scans and outpatient services can be better arranged to ensure greater capacity in the future and help to reduce waiting times at a national level. The development of additional capacity will be provided through dedicated, stand-alone elective hospitals in Cork, Galway and Dublin.

The elective care scope of service will be developed in two phases commencing with day cases, diagnostics and outpatients and then by inpatient treatment. On this basis, the elective care centres will be designed to provide sufficient capacity to facilitate future phases, including some elective inpatient capacity, thereby providing a sustainable and strategic response to cater for the highly dynamic landscape of healthcare policy and practice.

The locations chosen for the new elective care centres will allow for new facilities of a size and scale to implement a national elective care programme. This means that the new facilities will be designed to maximise their capacity and in doing so will operate to meet the demands of as wide a catchment area as possible, extending beyond existing and future health areas. Locating the new facilities in Cork, Dublin and Galway will enable us to cover more than four fifths of the entire population of the State.

I am conscious of the strong public support for these new facilities and the desire expressed by many, including the Deputy, for them to be developed as quickly as possible. I say to him that it is important we follow due process with regard to developing our plans to ensure value for money from this significant strategic development. This means that we are following the public spending code process. As part of this, detailed programme and project preliminary business cases for Cork and Galway have been developed and undergone both internal and external assurance. These will be coming to the Government very shortly for approval in principle. I would not wish to pre-judge the process, but can assure the Deputy that we will make an announcement on the locations of the emerging preferred sites once that approval is given.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I did not expect the Minister of State to confirm with a big fanfare that the site has been chosen as Glanmire here this evening but it is not a secret anymore. Many of us have been aware that the preferred site was Glanmire up to eight months ago, to be honest. That detail was quite well known although, as I said, I do not expect the Minister of State to confirm it this evening.

I commend the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, for his work on this. I know his Department turned around the business case and the public spending code that the Minister of State mentioned in his response in a matter of weeks. It is just unfortunate that the report spent eight months in the Department of Health sitting on a desk when the Taoiseach said that we need to start delivering major infrastructure like this. That it spent eight months sitting in the Department of Health does not fill me with confidence that we will work on large-scale projects like this as expeditiously as we need to.

As I said, I did not expect the Minister of State to come in here and confirm the site. I am assuming that will be done after the Cabinet meets next week but I will make two brief points. First, the response mentioned that it would be announced very shortly but that it would be approved in principle. Will the Minister of State elaborate on what "in principle means"? Is that subject to any other type of confirmation that we can be made aware of? Second, the report spent eight months in the Department of Health. If that is how we treat these major infrastructure schemes, I do fear for the future. Taking things by the scruff of the neck, to me, means making decisions quickly and cutting out a lot of the red tape which drives many of us here demented. I would appreciate if the Minister of State could expand on what approval in principle means.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

As I said in my opening remarks, I am conscious of Deputy O'Sullivan's desire for the new elective facilities in Cork and in particular that they are delivered as soon as possible. Producing this new delivery capability into the public healthcare system will benefit the good people of Cork and indeed the whole population. I am as keen as the Deputy that they get to work as quickly as possible.

I suppose being approved in principle means the Government has given a commitment. However, I am aware that the Government has a duty to ensure value for money when delivering projects such as this and it is important to follow due process. Preliminary business cases will be coming to the Government for consideration very soon. The Taoiseach suggested yesterday that this could be as early as next week. As soon as the Government approval in principle is given to those, we will be in a position to announce the locations of emerging preferred sites at Cork and Galway. That will then allow us to move on to the next stage of the programme, which is the development of detailed project design, project brief and procurement strategy. We are taking all possible steps to move the projects forward as quickly as possible within the current rules. I look forward to being able to make a further announcement soon and I appreciate the Deputy's support in this matter.

I do not have the exact location but if my esteemed colleague Dan McConnell says that it is in Glanmire then I suspect it is. But that has not been officially revealed yet.

Medical Cards

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

This relates to emergency medical cards and emergency relief where patients are suffering from a particular life-threatening situation and the need to issue a medical card quickly. It is true to say that a patient who has a life-threatening illness has enough worries but some are forced to wait again and again and are told they must apply again. The last thing that should be on the mind of the patient should be the delay in applying again. They do not want very much. All they want is a bit of consideration, compassion and a little bit of movement, particularly where the hospitals have issued the request for the medical card.

They know what the condition is and the circumstances, but there is a dragging out of the whole situation to the extent that the deciding officer is making a suggestion on the seeking of further conclusive evidence. For heaven's sake, the hospital has already indicated what is required.

I am referring to two particular cards but I am not using the people's names. There was a call to my office this evening from the Department to suggest one card has been granted. One card has not been granted. A card was granted to a person with the same name. It was not the same person at all. The issue was such that I decided all the cases should be dealt with globally and finished with. Is it possible to indicate to the HSE the urgent need to respond and alleviate the stress on the patients? They are under enough stress already. It should not be necessary for them to repeat the nature of their condition time and again. They have life-threatening conditions. I call for an immediate response in all the cases concerned and all cases that are pending. What I am calling for will not bring the nation to a halt. It involves a simple expression of compassion and concern to alleviate the stress of patients and make life a little easier for them.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. He talked about issuing medical cards quickly and people having to supply information again. He has a unique view on the hospital making a decision. A time of illness is difficult and a cancer patient experiencing trauma, for example, needs compassion and needs the State to act as quickly as possible.

Person-centred care is a core value of the health service, whereby everyone living in Ireland and considered by the HSE to be ordinarily resident here is entitled to either full eligibility or limited eligibility for health services. Persons with full eligibility, namely medical card holders, can generally access a wide range of health services without charge. As of 1 November, there are over 1.56 million medical card holders and more than 533,000 GP visit card holders.

Eligibility for a medical card is provided on a statutory basis under the Health Act 1970 and is based primarily on means. The Act obliges the HSE to assess whether a person is able, without undue hardship, to arrange general practitioner services, having regard to his or her overall financial position and reasonable expenditure. Where individuals might be in excess of the medical card income threshold in the guidelines, every effort is made by the HSE to support them by taking full account of the difficult circumstances, such as extra costs arising from an illness. In such circumstances, the HSE may exercise discretion and grant a medical card. That said, it is vital that we do as much as possible to support people with difficult illnesses, including, where appropriate, through the provision of a medical card.

With the exception of patients who are terminally ill, all emergency medical cards granted are issued on the grounds that the patient is eligible for a medical card on the basis of means or undue hardship and will follow up with a full application within a number of weeks of becoming eligible. I am advised by the HSE that such medical cards are active on the system within 24 hours of the HSE national medical card unit receiving a medical report and completed application form from a healthcare professional.

I endeavour to ensure that the medical card system is responsive and sensitive to people's needs. My Department keeps medical card issues under review, and any proposals are considered in the context of any potential broader implications for Government policy, the annual budgetary Estimates process and legislative requirements arising. However, I do hear the Deputy. For every Deputy and Senator, medical cards can be a very difficult issue. It can be harrowing for those with a terminal or serious illness if they find it hard to get a medical card. We do need to do a little better.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

In fact, it is not happening as it should. The people involved know that full well. Where there is a terminal illness or life-threatening illness that may become terminal, what does the section want? Does it want somebody to say the patient is going to die? That is essentially what it is coming down to. That is not something I or anybody else should decide. In order to deal with the situation that presents itself, in which the patient is under stress owing to illness and thoughts of how things might pan out, there is a need for some small gesture of reassurance, such as an emergency medical card. This would be of some small assistance to an affected family. The cost would not tear the nation apart. It is just a simple gesture to alleviate some of the burden on a family affected. It may be the head of the family or a junior member. I ask the Minister of State to relay this to the relevant section of the Department straight away. Could it have a little humanity and compassion and apply them? In all cases, the people in question said they want the medical card only for the time involved, whatever that may be, and not forever. It is to relieve the stress. They have enough stress already. We do not need to add to it by dragging patients through an assessment, all based on money. That is not the way the system is supposed to work.

I assure the Minister of State that I have dealt with this for many years. Somebody is sitting on a file or files somewhere waiting for confirmation. They are not entitled to do so. What is happening to the patients is appalling. I ask the Minister of State to convey my views to the authorities concerned in the shortest possible time.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I will bring the Deputy's views to the relevant section immediately. As he said, we need to alleviate some of the burden on people with serious and terminal illnesses. We do as much as possible to support people with difficult illnesses, including, where appropriate, through the provision of a medical card. Every effort is made by the HSE within the framework of the legislation to support applicants in applying for a medical card and, in particular, to take full account of the difficult circumstances of applicants whose income may be in excess of that stipulated in the guidelines. In this context, it is important to acknowledge that the HSE may exercise discretion and grant a medical card, even though an applicant exceeds the income threshold, where he or she faces difficult financial circumstances such as extra costs arising from an illness.

The HSE affords applicants the opportunity to furnish supporting information and documentation to take account fully of all the relevant circumstances that may benefit them in the assessment, including medical evidence of costs and necessary expenses. We will endeavour to ensure the medical card system is responsive and sensitive to people's needs by keeping all medical card issues under review.

Schools Amalgamation

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

The Minister for Education was in touch with my office to state she has other commitments this evening. Therefore, I appreciate the attendance of the Minister of State. I am interested in hearing what he has to say on behalf of the Government.

The Minister of State will appreciate that when Deputies get 20 or 30 emails on a particular issue, they know something has gone drastically wrong.

A review of the schools in Raheny parish is taking place. When I made contact with the office of the archbishop, the representative informed me this is one of a number of reviews. I understand 29 schools in 11 parishes, of which Raheny is one, are under review. I was told there is an independent facilitator whose role is to consult, listen and be part of the information flow. This is a process done in tandem with the patron body and Department of Education. Given that I used to be in that position as a school principal, as a rule I do not get involved in individual school issues regarding the future. It is an issue for an individual school and its patron body. These matters do not need to be politicised unnecessarily. However, this has a political component to it because the Department of Education is involved. The process is being so mishandled that, regardless of one's view on the future of primary schools in Raheny, everybody would feel as if they are not being heard, the independent facilitator is not doing the job properly and there has to be a restart.

Anybody who knows anything about my politics will know that I believe in divestment and that having a disproportionate number of schools under one particular patron is not healthy. Anybody who knows anything about my political view would know that I do not believe single gender schools, in particular at primary level, can stand up to scrutiny. In Raheny there are two single gender schools and a mixed infant school and, I understand, after a period of consultation there is a proposal that one school would divest and the two remaining schools under Catholic patronage may be reconfigured along co-educational lines.

Speaking to the representative of the archbishop, I asked him plainly whether there is an absolute guarantee that anyone who wants to have his or her child educated through the Catholic ethos in Raheny will have capacity for that to continue into the future. He said, categorically, "Yes". He said that to me, but that is not the understanding or knowledge of many people who have contacted me.

I ask that the Minister of Education take control of the situation because clearly if people are forced to contact a local representative, they feel they are not being heard. We also need to hear the views of those who do not have children currently attending schools in Raheny but who live in the area. They may have a one-, two- or three-year-old child and would like to know if they could have some say as to what the reconfiguration of schools would be.

To put it bluntly, this situation has got out of control. It is not working for anybody, including staff or parents. I ask the Minister for Education to intervene and ensure that the independent facilitator of the process does his job effectively because currently there is a lot of concern and insecurity about the future of schools and people feel as if they are not being listened to.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

As the Deputy knows, I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Education. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. It gives me the opportunity to set out for the House the position with regard to the schools reconfiguration engagement process that is ongoing in a number of pilot areas nationwide, including a number of primary schools in the Raheny area.

In March this year, the Minister for Education announced that arrangements were being put in place for a number of towns and areas in cities that have no multidenominational primary schools at present as part of the pilot reconfiguration initiative. This work involves identifying potential schools and engaging with school authorities, staff and the school communities, including parents, with a view to agreeing on a transfer of patronage and change of ethos where there is sufficient demand for this.

Where a school transfers from one patron to another, it remains open with the same roll number and operating on the same school property. All State-funded primary schools follow a common national curriculum and are subject to the same rules and regulations, as the Deputy knows. The council for education of the Irish episcopal conference, representing the Catholic patrons, and relevant bishops have confirmed their willingness to engage and co-operate fully with the Department of Education in seeking to facilitate a more diverse school patronage in these towns and cities. The pilot areas are part of the cities of Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick and the Arklow, Athlone, Dundalk and Youghal areas.

The Department has made available a number of independent facilitators across the pilot areas to work with the school patron and relevant school authorities at a local level to progress the reconfiguration pilot initiative and engage with stakeholders, including school authorities, staff and parents. The work aims to agree on a transfer of patronage and change of ethos to multidenominational, where there is sufficient demand for this in the pilot areas.

Among the pilot areas being engaged with to consider if there is demand for the transfer patronage and change of ethos to multidenominational are three schools, Naíscoil Íde, Scoil Áine and Scoil Assaim, in the Raheny area. For clarity, no decision has been taken to transfer patronage of any of the three schools. There is an ongoing engagement process. In this respect, the relevant facilitator has met the school authorities and staff. Dates have been set for the facilitator's information meetings with parents of children in the three schools.

A key part of the structured engagement process in the pilot area is the information meeting with parents, where the facilitator makes a presentation to parents providing information on the school's reconfiguration process initiative, including information on what this may mean for parents and pupils and setting out the steps in the engagement process. At the information meetings with the facilitator, parents will have the opportunity to raise any questions and share their views.

The information meetings are useful from the perspective of the facilitator and patron representative in helping to gauge the level of demand for a transfer of patronage and change of ethos. Parents can share their views at the information meetings with the facilitator and also by email to the Department for Education's reconfiguration email address. Such correspondence will be shared with the relevant facilitator.

The Deputy called for an independent facilitator and for patron body representatives to meet, and asked that the Minister intervene. I will bring those views back to the Minister.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

There are two issues. One is that the independent facilitator has indicated that he will "read the room". No matter what side of the debate one is on, whether one wants divestment, co-educational schools or for things to remain exactly as they are, an independent facilitator saying to a group of parents or anybody that it will be his determination what the temperature is by just reading the room is not particularly scientific and does not give anybody any sense that this will be done in a fair manner.

Second, I contend that the parents of a two-year-old have more skin in the game than the parents of somebody in sixth class. Yet, the parents of a child in sixth class, who is leaving a school next year, have more of a say in what the future of the school will be than somebody whose child is aged two, three or four, lives close to the school and intends to send their child to that school. The views of such parents are not being canvassed, yet they live in the area and surely have a view.

This is why I am asking the Minister to intervene and communicate with the independent facilitator. We cannot ask people to have faith in a process when a determination will be made by a facilitator who is going to read the temperature of a room. What if my child is aged two, three or four, I live in Raheny and have an interest in what happens to the future of these schools? Surely we should find a mechanism in the school catchment area to canvass the views of those who live locally and whose children will soon be of schoolgoing age. As I said, those parents have more of a stake in this process than somebody whose child is in sixth class and is leaving the school and has no other children going through the school.

Those are two reasonable points and the Minister of State needs to hear them and communicate them back. Otherwise, we are going to have a divisive process – indeed, we already have one – that will satisfy no one. Schools are magical places. We need to ensure they remain so and not have division.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I will bring the Deputy's views and concerns back to the Minister. Engagement on the three schools the Deputy referred to in Raheny is ongoing and no decision in respect of the transfer of patronage from the Catholic patron to a multidenominational one has been made at this stage. As part of the structured engagement process, information meetings with the facilitator have been set up with parents in the three schools. The facilitator will provide them with information on the process, answer queries and provide an opportunity for parents to share their views. Parents and the school community can also email the Department at [e-mail] to ask questions or share their views.

As part of the structured engagement process, the facilitator and school patrons, or the patrons' representatives where appropriate, review the engagement as part of each information session with the school community. The facilitator writes a preliminary report reflecting the engagement with the school authorities, staff and parents and submits this to the patron. In pilot areas where the engagement has already progressed to this stage, the facilitator's preliminary report to the patron was circulated to the full school community and a dedicated reconfiguration email address was provided so that the school community, including parents, could provide feedback or views. The Department collated this and provided it to the relevant facilitator.

As the Deputy knows, this is an ongoing engagement process with the school community and I encourage the school community in this and other areas where the pilot engagement process is in train to share their views with facilitators and the Department. The overarching aim of this process is to offer greater choice to parents in areas where the availability of multidenominational schools is limited.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I will bring his points to the Minister.