Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 2023

Vol. 1034 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Today, the Government wants to pass through the Dáil legislation establishing the mother and baby homes redress scheme, this despite the fact the scheme shamefully excludes children who spent less than six months in a mother and baby institution or a county home. As a consequence, 24,000 survivors will be left behind by the Government’s proposed scheme.

It is scandalous that this exclusionary, discriminatory provision remains in the legislation. The scheme creates a hierarchy of victims by taking the view that some mothers and their children suffered less than others. The very idea that a child who spent less than six months in a home suffered no damage or injury and is not entitled to redress is just unacceptable. The Government is saying that these children did not spend long enough in a home to suffer trauma from being forcibly separated from their mother. That is wrong. For a child taken from their mother against her will, the trauma was and is the act of separation itself - a trauma that lasts a lifetime.

This happened on the watch of the State and there must be redress for that injustice. The proposed scheme is a botched scheme. It does not meet the needs of survivors in an equal and fair way. It is not just Sinn Féin saying this; concerns have been raised by the Special Rapporteur on Child Protection, by the UN Special Rapporteur and by the UN Human Rights Committee.

No matter how long a child spent in one of these places and no matter what age they were when they left, they suffered greatly and their trauma is real. No arbitrary six-month line drawn by the Government changes this reality. Is mór an náire é scéim an Rialtais. Is iomaí duine a tháinig slán ó na hárais mháithreacha agus naíonán atá fágtha amach ón gcúiteamh. Ní mór an scéim a athrú ionas go mbeidh gach marthanóir san áireamh. Is é seo an rud ceart a dhéanamh. The survivors of mother and baby homes have shown remarkable resilience and dignity in the face of great adversity. If it was not for their courage and bravery, there would have been no commission of investigation, no State apology and no redress scheme whatsoever to speak of. The scheme that comes before the House today is an insult to those survivors and the hard road they have walked. They have walked that road together. They have not separated or divided. They have not left anybody behind, and they will not allow the Government to do so now.

This week we heard from many survivors on the radio. We heard from Jean and Eamon. They both spent less than six months in a home and they say this scheme makes them feel irrelevant. More importantly, it suggests that their separation from their mother did not matter. That is the human impact of this legislation. The Opposition has engaged in good faith in order to try to get the changes needed for a redress scheme that is just, but the Minister is not listening. Somebody needs to listen now and that somebody must be the Taoiseach. I ask him, as Head of Government, to intervene and drop this discriminatory six-month rule. I ask him to bring forward a scheme that truly meets the needs of survivors in a fair and equal way. These women and their families have had to fight the State every step of the way; they should not have to fight any longer.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Hear, hear.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. The mother and baby institutions payments scheme is currently being debated by the Oireachtas. The scheme will include financial payments to an estimated 34,000 people and a form of enhanced medical card for almost 20,000 who were resident in mother and baby and county home institutions. This will come at a cost of approximately €800 million to the taxpayer. It is one of the biggest schemes of its type as we seek to put right some of the wrongs of the past.

While no measure could possibly hope to make up for the trauma and wrongs committed in institutional settings in the 20th century, the Government has engaged and responded in a meaningful way. We have brought forward redress in several different forms - and it is not just about money - one of which is the proposed payments scheme, which is the largest scheme ever brought forward by the State in the context of the number of intended recipients. Report Stage of the Bill was taken in the Dáil on 1 February Bill, and proceedings thereon were adjourned until today. The Bill will be presented in the Seanad shortly after it has been passed by the Dáil. The scheme will open as soon as possible in 2023, once the legislation is passed by the Oireachtas and the administrative framework is in place. We want no further delays in that regard. In parallel with the legislative process, intensive work is under way on the development of the structures we need to put in place to administer the payments scheme. These structures will include an independent executive office located in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

We recognise the fact that many women face significant barriers, including the lack of financial and family support that left them with no choice in this matter. They were abandoned by the fathers of their children, as was noted in the report of the commission of investigation. Shame, stigma and ostracism all contributed profoundly to a hostile environment in which to be a single mother outside marriage. The implication that, in all cases, adoption equated to forced family separation can create a harmful and hurtful narrative for adoptive parents and their children, whether those children were adopted from a mother and baby institution or another setting. We need to be sensitive to that too.

The Government's view is we want a payments system that is non-adversarial, does not involve any investigative element and does not have to rely on incomplete or non-existent documentary evidence. Instead, a generalised payment without the need for assessment has been brought forward for every surviving woman who spent any time at all in any of the institutions. For children who spent less than six months in an institution and who were adopted or otherwise separated from their birth families, the overwhelming priority need that has been expressed through the extensive engagement with those concerned is access to records and information about their identities. For those children who spent short periods in institutions during their infancy, the action plan provides a response to their needs. This will primarily happen through the Birth Information and Tracing Act and the investment that has been made to support the implementation of this legislation. The new information and tracing service under the Act opened to applications last October. It provides, for the first time, access to birth certificates and also wider birth and early life information for those who have questions about their origins.

Deputy Joan Collins

Shame on you.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am sure that the Taoiseach is aware of the Government's survivor consultation, which was extensive, reported there were numerous and many harms and human rights violations identified in respect of which reparation is needed. However, the consultation recorded the primary harm was the loss of the mother-child bond and the relationship. The primary damage was done by separation, yet, in an arbitrary way, the Government has decided those who were separated from their mother, if they happened to be in an institution for less than six months, are not to be covered by this redress scheme. I put it to the Taoiseach that this is actually cruel. The Government does not have to do this. If I were sitting where the Taoiseach is, I certainly would not do this for the very simple reason that it is wrong. God knows over the years we have heard testimony and heartbreak aplenty from families who were devastated by this experience. I again ask the Taoiseach to intervene in respect of this matter and to drop this arbitrary and cruel rule.

The Taoiseach

It is not fair to characterise the decision of Government in respect of this matter as arbitrary. We had a commission of investigation. It made its findings and recommended a set of actions and a redress scheme. We decided to go well beyond what was recommended by the independent commission, which was chaired by an independent judge. The commission looked at the matter for many years before coming to its findings and we went further than it recommended-----

Deputy Mark Ward

What about the six months?

The Taoiseach

-----so it is not fair to say it is arbitrary in that regard.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is arbitrary.

The Taoiseach

It is also unfair to characterise the response of the Government as being solely linked to financial compensation. There is much more to what we are doing than that. For example, one of the things we have done is put in place immediate counselling support. That was available on the publication of the commission's final report through the HSE's national counselling service. A State apology was also made by the former Taoiseach, now the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, in January 2021. That was significant too.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the main requests and demands from people who were born in mother and baby institutions was that we change our laws so they can have access to their birth certificates-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

And none of that justifies excluding them from redress.

The Taoiseach

-----and access to information about their early lives.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

The Taoiseach

That was done in the Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Wow.

The Taoiseach

Almost 7,000 requests have been received and 2,000 cases have been completed. We are pulling out all the stops to ensure we get that information to people affected as soon as possible. There is the national central repository of records, a national centre of research and remembrance and research scholarships. We are trying to get public access-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

And none of that justifies excluding people from redress.

The Taoiseach

-----to State files. I could go on if I was not being interrupted.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is heartless, it is cruel and it is disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please. I call the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Bacik.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Yesterday, the Taoiseach revealed to me in this House that the Government will make a decision on whether to extend the eviction moratorium in the next two to three weeks. The current moratorium will end on 31 March. By the Taoiseach's own account, the Government is giving itself until 15 March to make a decision. However, people across the country have already been given notices to quit and many families are counting down the days until they will be without a home. Does the Taoiseach think it is fair to leave those renters in limbo?

It is important to say that the eviction ban was only ever as useful as the actions taken while it has been in place. Despite all the backslapping by Government Deputies and Ministers and the endless spin, the Government has not used that time well. It should have been a productive breathing space to provide additional accommodation for people. While some building targets may have been met, the Government's advice indicates that it has set them far too low. It has introduced the tenant in situ scheme, which we welcomed, but it is applied inconsistently.

There are particularly low conversion rates in Dublin, where the crisis is worst. Much was said by the Government about taking action on vacant and derelict homes, and this is again welcome, but Dublin City Council has taken ownership of just 25 derelict properties in the past five years. This is a shamefully low figure.

The Taoiseach states that he understands the scale of the crisis, but yesterday's mini-budget did not contain a single housing support for renters or homeowners. When will we see real emergency measures adopted by the Government to tackle the housing crisis? Will the Taoiseach please announce today the extension of the eviction ban because timing is crucial. It is crucial for families. We are halfway through the school term. We are just a few short weeks away from the leaving and junior certificate examinations and third level assessments. We are also seeing a spate of job losses. Today's announcement by Google, in my constituency, is just the latest.

The Government is taking its time, however. It seems to have made a decision that there is no rush on this and is taking its time in consulting the Attorney General. It also seems to be assuming that families in rented accommodation do not require certainty now, but they do. The official figure for the number of people who are homeless stands at 11,632. That includes 3,442 children. We know people leaving the private rented sector represent a sizeable cohort of those now entering homelessness. It is unconscionable, therefore, to delay the decision any longer.

Last Wednesday, 15 February, Government Deputies voted down a Labour Party motion that would have extended the eviction ban on a temporary basis through to the end of this year. This would have given the Government a longer breathing space to deliver the necessary homes. Tonight, we are telling the Government that it has a second chance in this regard. There will be another opportunity for us all to vote to extend the eviction ban. I am asking the Taoiseach if, at the eleventh hour, he will right the wrong and vote to give certainty to people facing homelessness in a matter of weeks, namely, at the end of next month.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Once again, yesterday's announcement was not a mini-budget. It did not involve any increases in weekly payments, income tax cuts or increases, as would happen in any budget, in spending for Departments. What was announced is a targeted package to help families struggling with the cost of living, pensioners and people on social welfare payments and small businesses in particular. It is clear that it was not a mini-budget. This is evident from the way in which it is targeted and from the fact that it does not relate to either all areas of society or all Departments.

Regarding the issue raised by the Deputy, we will make a decision on the matter as to whether we will extend the partial eviction ban. We will do so within two to three weeks - long before the ban expires. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Attorney General are working on this matter now.

Whatever we decide to do, it is important that we get it right. There are pros and cons to any decision we might make. Certainly, when this measure was reintroduced late last year, we had hoped that it would have the same effect as it had during the pandemic and that we would see the number of people in emergency accommodation fall. That has not happened and people are still becoming homeless for many different reasons, including family breakdown and other issues as well. In the context of the pros that we have to consider, there is the obvious benefit that if we extend the ban it might reduce the number of people losing their homes. This is important. It is a really big factor that we need to take account of. It weighs on our minds very heavily. We must also consider that this ban is creating a new form of homelessness. I refer to people who cannot move into houses and apartments which they own, including, for example, people coming back from Dubai, Australia and England and who find they are unable to move back into their own homes. We also have the matter of people, for example, who might have bought apartments in Dublin or Cork for when their daughters or sons go to college and who now cannot move them into the properties they bought. This matters too. These are people too and we need to take this into account.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

It is not the same thing.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It can be amended slightly for that.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

These are not the same circumstances at all.

The Taoiseach

We also need to take into account the issue-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to stop interrupting the Taoiseach. I call Deputy Bacik.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

We can disagree about the name of the package of measures the Government announced yesterday. However, I would like us to at least be able to agree that those in rental accommodation should be given some clarity about when the announcement will be made regarding whether the eviction ban will be extended. Will it happen before the St. Patrick's Day recess, for example? People deserve to know this.

This is not just a call coming from the Opposition. We saw The Business Post reporting warnings from Grant Thornton that the housing crisis risks economic growth. IBEC has been saying the same thing for years. The assertion that internal targets are too low is coming from within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. There is no left-wing conspiracy here. The housing horrors are real. To borrow a phrase, the call to extend the eviction ban is coming from inside the house and it must be listened to. Tá sé thar am don Taoiseach, cosc a chur ar díshealbhú. Tá sé ag teastáil anois. As they say, “Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin". We need to see urgent action by the Government on housing for all the families and households currently facing this cliff edge of an eviction notice that will take effect after the end of March.

The Taoiseach

I agree with the Deputy on the matter of certainty. The Government is considering this matter. We will make a decision and announce it before the St. Patrick's Day recess. The Deputy has my assurance in that regard. Déanfaidh an Rialtas cinneadh roimh bhriseadh Lá Fhéile Phádraig.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá mé ag filleadh ar árais na máithreacha agus naíonán. Tá mé ag impí ar an Taoiseach ag an bpointe seo, ciall ceannaithe a bheith aige, an rud ceart a dhéanamh, agus an scéim lochtach seo a tharraingt siar. I am wearing a jacket that is ill-fitting. I wear it out of respect for a woman who spent time in a mother and baby home. I wear it to be in touch with her spirit. She was allergic to the doublespeak and hypocrisy that this Government and previous Governments have persisted with. Perhaps the fact that it is ill-fitting stands as a metaphor for the ill-fitting scheme the Government is bringing in. It is telling us that the scheme is based on human rights when it is completely and utterly the opposite.

In 2003, some 20 years ago, the redress scheme came in. It was judged as being inefficient, long-winded, inadequate and wrong. People who availed of it had to waive their rights. I participated in that scheme, and it was and remains an offence to tell any of the Deputies here the amount of money the person I represented got. That was in 2003 and we were supposed to learn from that experience. Fast forward ten years to 2013 and the advent of the issues relating to the Magdalen laundries. Did we learn? Did the High Court beg us to learn and to plan out the next scheme in a fair and just way? Did we what?

Here we are again. Later this evening we will be pushing through legislation that is discriminatory, divisive and utterly based on cost-containment measures. The apology given by the State recognised that it failed the mothers and children in these homes. What should come from that is a universal scheme following on from the Oak consultation. Members of the Government have told us that it is monetary and that there are other ways of making it up to people. We have been told that the Government is going further than the commission of investigation and the interdepartmental committee recommended. All of that is disingenuous.

The report from the commission of investigation is utterly flawed. The commissioners refused to come before an Oireachtas committee, while one of them thought it proper to attend a seminar in Oxford. Various survivors were obliged to go to court. As a result, 64 paragraphs of the report are now acknowledged as being inaccurate. Reference has been made to the interdepartmental group's report. The group provided a number of options, one of which was that everyone should be included. The Irish Examiner used the freedom of information legislation in order to elicit information as to how the arbitrary, cruel and unacceptable six-month cut-off point was arrived at. Does the Taoiseach know the answer we got? The assistant principal in the Department said, in this regard, that it was not the appropriate time to provide that information while the deliberative process was ongoing. I would have thought that this is the very time we need information from the Government as to how it reached its decision on this arbitrary cut-off point and how those who were boarded out and those who suffered as a result of being mixed race were ignored. At the very least, we deserve honesty at this point - 20 years after the establishment of the first redress board.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept the Deputy's characterisation of what this Government and previous Governments have done. This Government and the one before it decided to deal with this issue, which has been a scar on our society for many decades and generations. Sadly, institutions such as these existed in other jurisdictions. I refer, for example, to the jurisdiction north of the Border and to those in other parts of Europe and the world.

We are one of the few countries, to my knowledge, that has actually faced up to this past and has at least tried to do something to put things right and put right some of the wrongs of the past. I do not think it is solely a matter of money. There is lots being done that goes well beyond financial redress. We estimate that the cost to the taxpayer will be €800 million, which is €800 million that could otherwise be spent meeting the needs of today or trying to build a better future but we have decided that, because of the wrongs that were done in the past, this is an appropriate amount of money to spend trying to put right the wrongs of the past, at least in some way. If we were only interested in cost containment, we would have left these matters to the courts. That is something we did not want to do. We wanted to put a redress scheme in place and not require anyone to have to go to court or prove their case. We thought that would be cruel. That is why we decided to have a non-adversarial scheme of this nature, notwithstanding the cost.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

A little humility would not go amiss. The Government was forced every step of the way to do something. Catherine Corless, who has fought gallantly, raised this back in 2012. Survivors have come here repeatedly and educated us. We have gotten over 1,500 emails, at a conservative estimate, about the madness of progressing with this divisive and discriminatory scheme. How dare the Taoiseach take pride in what the Government has done when it has been forced every step of the way? A more humble Taoiseach might learn, as he has been implored to do by the High Court and by various international and national bodies including the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, and base any redress on fairness and human rights. The Government is not doing that. At the very least, I ask the Taoiseach to tell us what the justification was for the six months if it was not money. At the very least he should tell us that part and stop boasting that this is the best scheme. We have brought in schemes for mica and all the other things and we have not batted an eyelid. Indeed, I have joined with my colleagues in those debates. This is an acknowledgement that we had an architecture of containment for a century, from start to finish, from which various classes in this society benefited. With regard to those people who ended up in mother and baby homes, how dare the Taoiseach quote the commission as saying they walked in there or their families put them in there? That is complete nonsense and utterly ignores what happened in terms of the powerful and the powerless.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate that the Deputy feels very strongly and passionately about this. I appreciate that this is an issue of genuine interest and concern to her but I do not think it is right for her to put words in my mouth. I did not quote the commission of investigation at all. I did not even mention the interdepartmental group and yet the Deputy has tried to put words in my mouth. She then moved on from that to try to criticise my character, attack me personally and misrepresent-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach without interruption.

The Taoiseach

-----the Government.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

So you are the victim.

The Taoiseach

When it comes to politics, it is in all of our interests that we do not engage in that sort of personalised criticism of each other where we question people's character and motivations. I do not think that serves anyone's interests, quite frankly, and I do not think it is the way politics should operate. The reason we took the decision we did during the previous Government and this Government was because we listened to people like Catherine Corless and because we engaged with survivors. It was because Katherine Zappone, who was a Minister in that Government, went down to Tuam, looked in the tank and the graves and came back and reported to the Government. She said to us that we needed to be the Government that tried to do something about this. That is what happened. I remember her addressing that Cabinet meeting and almost breaking down in tears as she read out a poem she wrote herself on that day. It was that that convinced the Government to act. I do not think it is right for the Deputy to try to demonise us in the way she is trying to do now. It is not right.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath on behalf of the Rural Independent Group.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Go raibh maith agat-----

Deputy Joan Collins

I am sorry you are a victim, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I am neither a victim nor a demon. We should not demonise each other here.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Absolutely. Hear, hear.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

But you should justify the six months because there is no justification.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The Taoiseach was asked a very simple question but he has not answered it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Members, please.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Is the Government trying to address the cost-of-living crisis or is it trying to bankrupt the public? As far as I and most people can see, it is the latter. The facts, which have been confirmed to me in reply to a parliamentary question to the Minister for Finance, show that the Government collected a record €3.75 billion in energy taxes last year. Meanwhile, during that same period, the Government gave out minimal energy relief to people. The Government's decision yesterday to extend the minimum excise relief is like throwing breadcrumbs to a flock of crows after starving them. It is not enough. We need relief from those punitive taxes that are crippling our public. The figures expose the Government's exploitation of our citizens and the energy price crisis. The Government is gaining profits from the difficulties of ordinary people through taxes that are bordering on criminal. The plain facts of the matter are that this Government's energy tax policies are nothing but highway robbery. They are taking from the poor and giving to the Government's own coffers to give out this, that and the other. Last year, the Government collected a record €3.75 billion in energy taxes, representing an increase of nearly €500 million or 15% on the previous year. These are staggering figures in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. It gets even worse when you consider carbon tax and energy VAT income, which surged by almost 31%, increasing from €1.681 billion in 2021 to €2.196 billion in 2022. The figures are there. They are Department of Finance figures supplied by the Minister. It is almost criminal to raise VAT on carbon tax revenues from fuel during a cost-of-living crisis. People have to heat their homes and have to try to get to work and keep the wheels of industry going. That is why the Rural Independent Group submitted a motion last year for a zero rate of VAT and carbon tax until this cost-of-living crisis has passed us. It was like Pontius Pilate on Good Friday. The Government just voted it down - Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Green Party and some Independents. This Government says it has been prioritising the well-being of the Irish people but it thinks the people are ATMs, that it can reach in, put in the card and take more and more. I can tell the Taoiseach they have no more to give. They are suffering. They are in agony. They are trying to live, put clothes on their children's backs and feed them and send them to school. The Government keeps hitting the weakest and the lowest. Ordinary working families and small businesses are completely crucified and they get nothing from the Government only a threat that it is going to go back up in October to the full taxation on energy, whether it is diesel, petrol, home heating oil, agrifuel or anything else. It is more punitive suffering.

The Taoiseach

At the outset, I want to say once again that the Government appreciates that the cost of living is very high, that inflation remains high and that prices are still rising. We understand that the high cost of living is hurting people and families and making it very hard for a lot of businesses to operate in the State. This is driven largely by factors outside our control. Of course we would like to see energy prices being much lower but we are a price taker when it comes to electricity, gas, petrol and diesel, which are almost all imported from abroad. Prices have been driven up internationally by a number of factors, not least the war in Ukraine. We are acting to help. There was €600 taken off people's bills in the form of the electricity energy credit, with €200 still to come off people's bills in March and April. The 9% VAT rate is the lowest VAT rate we have ever had on electricity and gas and it was announced yesterday that we are going to extend it until the end of October. We have reduced the excise on both petrol and diesel. It was due to go up at the end of the month but we have announced now that it will not even start going up until June. We also announced yesterday that we would improve the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, so more businesses will qualify, that they would qualify for more financial support and that it would be backdated to September. As somebody who represents a rural constituency, I know the Deputy will welcome the fact that there will now be a new grant scheme for businesses that are not on the gas network and use liquefied petroleum gas or kerosene instead. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, is putting that scheme together as we speak. There will be a debate on this and a vote in the Dáil. The vote will be to extend the 9% VAT until the end of October and not to put up the cost of petrol and diesel at the end of this month. I hope the Deputy will vote with the Government on that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I do welcome the new TBESS because the first one was way too restrictive. A person on anything other than town gas could not claim for it. I welcome the VAT rate for hospitality; of course I do.

I do not welcome the fact the Government will start taking off the excise exemptions after June and will be charging people extra for fuel. The Government is playing a three card trick here. The wholesale cost of oil is lower than it was in the pre-war period. The war is blamed for everything. It should stop the blame game there. It is the Government's punitive taxes that are causing the price of oil to be so high; it is nothing else, including international factors. Every other country in Europe - I have a list of them - have had windfall taxes but the Government refused to have them. The Government does everything for the corporate big people but nothing for the daoine beaga, the small people, because the Government parties are not interested in them and never were. It is shameful that the Government will try to quote those figures glibly here. We welcome the bits and pieces but the Government has a lucky bag here and if one does not vote for parts of it, one will not get the rest. It is a lucky dip, mar dhea, and we are threatened if we do not vote for it.

The Government's carbon tax cost every man, woman and child in this country an extra €160 last year. This year it will be €180 and next year it will be €210. That is what the Government is doing to help people. The Government is robbing and fleecing the people and is pretending to throw them crumbs. It is a mockery.

The Taoiseach

A number of different factors are at play when it comes to the price of fuel but it is just not correct to say that international factors have nothing to do with it and that it is all about tax. That is demonstrably not the case.

One need only go north of the Border to look at the price of petrol and diesel there, or go to the UK or to most parts of western Europe-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

-----but perhaps not to all parts of Europe. One will see what the price is in the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany.

This is absolutely driven by international factors and we are price-takers in that regard. Tax is an element of it and we have taxes for a reason. They pay for education, healthcare, pensions, housing and all of those things we need. That is why we have taxes.

When one looks at the price of a barrel of oil, for example, one needs to bear in mind currency movements. Oil tends to be priced in dollars. Sometimes North Sea Brent crude is priced in sterling. If the euro is weaker than other currencies, that also impacts it. One cannot just look at the price of oil-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Can we not use our own gas?

The Taoiseach

-----and one needs to look at that too. I stand over the carbon tax. This tax is ring-fenced and is being given back to people for retrofitting and green schemes for farmers.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They really feel for them.

The Taoiseach

It is done for that particular purpose.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions for today. Before we proceed with Questions on Policy or Legislation, I understand the Government Chief Whip has a business proposal to put to the House.