Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Mar 2023

Vol. 1036 No. 1

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I move:

Tuesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Convention on the International Organization for Marine Aids to Navigation (back from Committee) (without debate)

- Motion re Twenty Second Report of the Committee of Selection (without debate)

- Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Annual Emission Allocation Units Purchase Agreement (to conclude within 55 mins)

- Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the proposal for a Council Decision on the position to be taken on behalf of the European Union in the Specialised Committee on Law Enforcement and Judicial Cooperation (to conclude within 55 mins)

Private members' business shall be Second Stage of the Residential Tenancies (Deferment of Termination Dates of Certain Tenancies) Bill 2023, selected by Sinn Féin.

Wednesday’s business shall be:

- Motion re Confidence in the Government (to conclude within 145 min and any division claimed to be taken immediately by roll call)

- Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Employment Equality Act 1998 (Section 12) (Reservation of Vocational Training Places) Order 2022 (back from Committee) (without debate)

- Motion re Presentation and Circulation of Further Revised Estimates for Public Services 2023 [Votes 38 and 40] (without debate)

- Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (without debate)

- Sex Offenders (Amendment) Bill 2021 (Amendments from the Seanad) (to be taken no earlier than 4.50 p.m. and to conclude within 30 mins)

- Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 (Report and Final Stages) (to conclude within 60 mins)

- Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 (Amendments from the Seanad) (to conclude within 60 mins)

Private members' business shall be the Motion re Education and School Building Programme, selected by the Labour Party.

Thursday’s business shall be:

- Statements on Government Supports for the Irish Sheep Sector (not to exceed 145 mins)

- Statements on the Report of the Independent Review Group on Dignity and Equality issues in the Defence Forces (not to exceed 110 mins)

Thursday evening business shall be Second Stage of the Taisceadán (Valuable Property Register) Bill 2019.

Announcement of proposed arrangements for this week's business:

In relation to Tuesday’s business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the following extent:

(i) the Dáil shall sit later than 10.30 p.m.;

(ii) private members' business may be taken earlier than 6.12 p.m. and shall, in any event, be taken on the conclusion of Government business, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Parliamentary Questions to the Minister for Social Protection and topical issues; and

(iii) notwithstanding anything in Standing Order 37, topical issues shall be taken for 96 minutes;

2. the Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Convention on the International Organization for Marine Aids to Navigation shall be taken without debate;

3. the Motion re Twenty Second Report of the Committee of Selection shall be taken without debate;

4. the proceedings on the Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Annual Emission Allocation Units Purchase Agreement shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 55 minutes, and the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:

- opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State - 10 minutes;

- speech by representative of Sinn Féin - 10 minutes

- speeches by representatives of the Labour Party, Social Democrats, People-Before-Profit-Solidarity, the Regional Group, the Rural Independent Group and the Independent Group - 5 minutes per party or group; and

- a speech in response by the Minister – 5 minutes; and

(ii) members may share time

5. the proceedings on the Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the proposal for a Council Decision on the position to be taken on behalf of the European Union in the Specialised Committee on Law Enforcement and Judicial Cooperation shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 55 minutes, and the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:

- opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State - 10 minutes;

- speech by representative of Sinn Féin - 10 minutes

- speeches by representatives of the Labour Party, Social Democrats, People-Before-Profit-Solidarity, the Regional Group, the Rural Independent Group and the Independent Group - 5 minutes per party or group; and

- a speech in response by the Minister – 5 minutes; and

(ii) members may share time; and

6. notwithstanding anything in Standing Order 170(2), the proceedings on Second Stage of the Residential Tenancies (Deferment of Termination Dates of Certain Tenancies) Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 2 hours.

In relation to Wednesday’s business:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the following extent:

(i) topical issues shall not be taken;

(ii) the Motion re Confidence in the Government shall be taken as the first item of business;

(iii) private members' business shall be taken on the conclusion of the SOS for two hours, and Government business shall resume on the conclusion of private members’ business; and

(iv) the voting block shall be taken on the conclusion of proceedings on the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022, with consequential effect on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the proceedings on the Motion re Confidence in the Government shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time;

3. the Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Employment Equality Act 1998 (Section 12) (Reservation of Vocational Training Places) Order 2022 shall be taken without debate;

4. the Motion re Presentation and Circulation of Further Revised Estimates for Public Services 2023 [Votes 38 and 40] shall be taken without debate;

5. the Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parlimentary Questions shall be taken without debate;

6. the proceedings on the amendments from the Seanad to the Sex Offenders (Amendment) Bill 2021 shall be taken no earlier than 4.50 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Seanad amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice;

7. the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice; and

8. the proceedings on the amendments from the Seanad to the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Seanad amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

In relation to Thursday’s business:

1. the following arrangements shall apply in relation to Thursday:

(i) the ordinary routine of business as set out in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that topical issues shall be taken on the conclusion of Statements on the Report of the Independent Review Group on Dignity and Equality issues in the Defence Forces, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Taisceadán (Valuable Property Register) Bill 2019, and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

(ii) the Dáil on its rising shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on 18th April, 2023;

2. the Statements on Government Supports for the Irish Sheep Sector shall not exceed 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time; and

3. the Statements on the Report of the Independent Review Group on Dignity and Equality issues in the Defence Forces shall not exceed 110 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 100 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not agreed.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is not agreed.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is now very obvious that the Government is desperately trying to avoid a situation where we will have a straight vote on extending the eviction ban, or not, as proposed by the Sinn Féin Bill. Nothing reflects more the absolute determination, or even desperation, of the Government to go this course more than that. The Taoiseach referred to a reasoned amendment. Has that been accepted by the Office of the Ceann Comhairle? What is it? I do not believe we have seen it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Several weeks ago, before any Private Member's motions were put forward on the issue of the eviction ban, the Chief Whip agreed that we would have debate on the implications of the eviction ban being lifted and the impact on homelessness. After that was agreed and presented to the Business Committee last Thursday, that debate, which was supposed to take place later today, was withdrawn. That shows complete disrespect for the Business Committee and solemn commitments that were given on successive weeks to have that debate. One can only draw the conclusion that the Government wants to do everything it can to minimise the interrogation and examination of its policies to deal with the likely deluge of homelessness we will face if the Government succeeds in lifting the eviction ban.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Not only was the debate on lifting the eviction ban withdrawn from the schedule today, furthermore the Taoiseach has not responded to the letter I wrote to him two weeks ago, enclosing proposed legislation that we in Labour put forward, with an evidence base for the lifting of the eviction ban if and when there was a demonstrable drop in homelessness figures over four consecutive months. Clearly, we tabled a motion of no confidence which will be debated tomorrow, along with the Government counter motion. We are still awaiting a response to a reasonable and constructive proposal that we in Labour put forward to address the chronic shortfall in housing which means that many families will face a cliff edge of potential homelessness once the Government lifts the ban with effect from this Saturday, 1 April.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

On several occasions it was agreed at the Business Committee that there would be discussion and statements on lifting the eviction ban and homelessness. The Chief Whip agreed to that. In fact, on several occasions we did not oppose the Order of Business because that commitment had been given. It was on the schedule for this week. Why, given the gravity of the situation, has the Government removed that from the schedule this week? Will it put it back on?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What are we going to do to get more gardaí to join the force and make it safe and secure so that gardaí within the force will stay the course? As the Taoiseach knows, 130 gardaí left the force last year and this year the same trend is continuing. It is no longer safe or a career people are happy in. We are not supporting them with proper supports such as body cams and so on. They need more resources on the ground to deal with thuggery and criminality. Above all, they need respect and support from the House, the Minister for Justice and the Commissioner who is not supporting gardaí in many areas where they are scarce on the ground. We need a full-scale debate on the issue in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I can inform Deputy McDonald that a reasoned amendment has been submitted and it is being processed in the normal way in accordance with normal procedure.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So it has not been accepted yet, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is being processed.

The Taoiseach

I have received a number of letters from Deputy Bacik on a number of items. I am not sure I have had a chance to respond to that one yet, but a response is coming. She will be aware that it was she in this Chamber back in October or November who called for a winter eviction ban.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Yes.

The Taoiseach

She now believes that winter is not the basis for a ban and she has a new proposal. I have explained in the Dáil-----

Deputy Ivana Bacik

We thought the Government might put measures in place.

The Taoiseach

I have explained in the Dáil why I do not think this idea of a moratorium linked to four consecutive months of a particular index falling is the right way to go. I explained that last week. I will be happy to explain it to her in writing if she so wishes.

I am advised by the Whip that over the past week and this week we will have 15 hours of debate in total on this issue, housing, and the end of the winter eviction moratorium. I think 15 hours is a lot. I think it is enough, but of course Deputies and parties are free to use their own time this week and when we come back after the Easter recess to discuss the issue, if they wish to have further debate, but 15 hours is a lot of time for any debate and we have a lot of other business and things on the agenda as well to do.

Garda recruitment is something we would be happy to provide time for. I do not think it has been discussed yet. Our recruitment campaign has begun for this year. We have set the target of recruiting 1,000 new gardaí this year. That will be tough, but that is what we are committed to doing. We are confident that the number of gardaí we recruit this year will exceed the number of retirements and resignations, so we will have more gardaí not fewer this year. While it might be unusual for the Garda, a resignation rate of about 1% from any organisation is not high. For most organisations across the public and private sectors, resignation rates of 5% or 6% are the norm, and for police forces across the world it is much higher.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We cannot keep people.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is high for the Garda.

Question put: "That the proposed arrangements for this week's business be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 57; Staon, 0.

Tá

• Brophy, Colm.
• Browne, James.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Colm.
• Burke, Peter.
• Butler, Mary.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Cahill, Jackie.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
• Chambers, Jack.
• Collins, Niall.
• Costello, Patrick.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowe, Cathal.
• Devlin, Cormac.
• Dillon, Alan.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Duffy, Francis Noel.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frankie.
• Flaherty, Joe.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Foley, Norma.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harris, Simon.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Higgins, Emer.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Lawless, James.
• Leddin, Brian.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Martin, Catherine.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Matthews, Steven.
• McAuliffe, Paul.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Moynihan, Aindrias.
• Murnane O'Connor, Jennifer.
• Naughton, Hildegarde.
• Noonan, Malcolm.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Brien, Joe.
• O'Callaghan, Jim.
• O'Connor, James.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Gorman, Roderic.
• O'Sullivan, Christopher.
• O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
• Ó Cathasaigh, Marc.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Richmond, Neale.
• Ring, Michael.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smyth, Ossian.
• Stanton, David.
• Troy, Robert.
• Varadkar, Leo.

Níl

• Andrews, Chris.
• Bacik, Ivana.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Brady, John.
• Browne, Martin.
• Buckley, Pat.
• Cairns, Holly.
• Canney, Seán.
• Carthy, Matt.
• Clarke, Sorca.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Michael.
• Connolly, Catherine.
• Conway-Walsh, Rose.
• Cronin, Réada.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cullinane, David.
• Daly, Pa.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Farrell, Mairéad.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Funchion, Kathleen.
• Gannon, Gary.
• Gould, Thomas.
• Guirke, Johnny.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kenny, Gino.
• Kenny, Martin.
• Kerrane, Claire.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• Mitchell, Denise.
• Munster, Imelda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Nash, Ged.
• Nolan, Carol.
• O'Callaghan, Cian.
• O'Rourke, Darren.
• Ó Broin, Eoin.
• Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.
• Ryan, Patricia.
• Shanahan, Matt.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Smith, Bríd.
• Smith, Duncan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Ward, Mark.
• Whitmore, Jennifer.

Staon

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hildegarde Naughton and Cormac Devlin; Níl, Deputies Richard Boyd Barrett and Pádraig Mac Lochlainn.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Fifty-eight schools in dire need of new buildings, many of which were due to go to tender or construction, have been told that the vital projects are on hold again. Many of these school communities have been waiting for decades. In my own constituency, Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire campaigned for 20 years for its new building. It was at the final stage of the process when it received the devastating news that the project was on hold. Imagine the anger having been told for two decades that the school was a priority to find it is on hold again.

Last week the Taoiseach gave a commitment to the 58 schools, including Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire, that they would be funded for construction this year. Some 48 hours later, the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, said that she was not in a position to make that same commitment. What is going on? Will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister for Education to write to the principals to give a clear guarantee that the new buildings will proceed to construction this year.

The Taoiseach

The situation is that the school building programme is powering ahead. I have never seen more new schools built in the country or new schools extended than I have in the last couple of years. It has gone over budget for lots of reasons. The Department of Education's school building programme has gone over budget. It needs additional money to proceed with these projects. It will be getting additional money to proceed with these projects but the exact details and the costings have to be worked out. The Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, are working on that at the moment and I believe they will come to a conclusion quite soon.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

In the week when so many families are facing a cliff edge of eviction in view of the ban on evictions being lifted on Saturday, we have learned that housing commencements have declined by 20% under the Government. That is 6,000 fewer new homes than at the same time last year. The Government has consistently over-relied on private developers to provide homes. The private market has proven that it cannot and will not deliver the affordable homes our country needs. The Housing Commission has reported that we will need 50,000 new homes each year to meet the needs of our growing population. This figure is much greater than the target in Housing for All, which, it seems, the Government is not going to meet. The drop in the number of commencements we are seeing will have a knock-on effect on housing delivery in 2023, with everyone already predicting a slowdown in construction. Will the Government revise the Housing for All target to 50,000 new builds per year in order to increase supply and to bring down rent levels and house prices? Will it ramp up State investment in the provision of social and affordable housing, particularly as the Land Development Agency, LDA, report indicates that up to 70,000 homes could be built on public land?

The Taoiseach

The LDA report, which, I am sure, the Deputy has read at this stage, states that approximately 66,000 homes could be built on public land, but that only in the region of 10,000 of those could be built in the next five to ten years as a result of the constraints relating to the sites involved. We will be scaling up our ambition in the context of what the LDA can achieve. We are examining the Housing for All targets, which have already been ramped up to 40,000 by the end of the decade. Whatever targets we have - and I anticipate that we will be increasing our targets - they have to be realistic. It is a catchcry to stand up at a conference and promise 1 million houses in ten years.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Was the Taoiseach watching?

The Taoiseach

Yes, I was.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I am glad the Taoiseach saw that.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Very good. Did the Taoiseach learn anything?

The Taoiseach

I will say no more about it because it would be unkind.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Today's session began with a rather crass debate as to whether 4,000 notices of termination would result in 4,000 families being evicted. The Taoiseach maintains that this would not be the case, and that is fine. What modelling does the Government have of exactly how many families will be evicted? What percentage of the figure of 4,000 to which I refer does the Taoiseach find tolerable? More importantly, where will the people I represent and who come to my office go? The Taoiseach stated that they should go to Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, or Threshold. I have gone to Dublin City Council and the Simon Community and they have no idea where people should go. How many families does the Taoiseach anticipate will go into homelessness over the next three months? Where will they go?

The Taoiseach

It is not possible to model that accurately. People in emergency accommodation are there for all sorts of reasons. The biggest reason in the past six months was family breakdowns and non-citizen families presenting for emergency accommodation. There is no way of predicting how many people will experience family breakdown or how many will apply for emergency accommodation. That is why modelling in this regard cannot exist. It is not that it does not exist; it cannot exist. It would only be a guesstimate, and not a good one.

As I told Deputy McDonald, in the past year, 50,000 families found new places to rent, leading to new tenancies being created. We anticipate about 50,000 new tenancies again this year. The vast majority of people who are served notices to quit will find alternative accommodation of various forms. Emergency accommodation is not the solution; it is just a backstop.

Deputy Seán Canney

Section 39 health workers provide an invaluable service to the State. There is an issue with regard to the fact that they do not get equal pay. We have a situation whereby a strike is going to happen in this sector imminently. That is to have a devastating effect on the health service. I also refer to the deadline for the announcement regarding the provision of home care services and the tender process in this regard. There does not seem to be any urgency with regard to the way the Department is treating this matter. People working in the healthcare services are being robbed by the HSE. There has been no increase in capacity in the sector. All we are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Unless we get matters right in the context of equal pay, we will end up with major services being cut.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

The Deputy asked quite a number of questions. I will comment on that relating to the tender. The HSE is working with the various sectors in order to have the tender in place for 1 May. This tender is going to be different. As the Deputy will be aware, I set up the strategic workforce advisory group last year. The group made 16 recommendations to encourage home care workers back into the market.

This tender will reflect the living wage in regard to tendering out to private organisations and will also reflect travel money and time between travelling. A lot of work is being done and, as a result, we are hopeful this will mean more people going into home care services. We currently have 56,000 people a day receiving home care. The waiting list at present is 3,500 people who are funded but do not receive home care, and there are approximately 3,000 people who receive a partial package but not seven days a week.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Taoiseach probably read the article at the weekend that told us a senior executive at the company, Applus, which is responsible for running the National Car Test Service, a service that is delivered by the State and contracted out, wrote to a number of Filipino migrant workers and told them that if they do not stop making noise in their accommodation, “I do not want you here in Ireland.” He wrote: “Your number one reason to be in Ireland is to work. … Do it, or I will solve the problem”. That sounds like a slave owner of the 1800s talking to his slaves. We cannot tolerate a company that is basically run at the behest of the Irish State speaking about and to workers like that. Will the Taoiseach join with me in condemning those statements and emails from the head of Applus? Will he support me in calling on this executive to appear before the Oireachtas transport committee and to explain how he feels it is appropriate to speak to workers in this way, to threaten and to bully migrant workers in our NCT?

The Taoiseach

I have not read the article, I have not heard either side of the story and I do not know the facts, so I do not want to comment on them in any detail. I will certainly let the Minister for Finance and the Chairman of the transport committee know that the Deputy raised it here and perhaps they can take it further.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

When Deputy Varadkar was last Taoiseach some four or five years ago, I raised with him the case of Clonmel man. John White is a Tipperary man who was in difficulties in Dubai because of his involvement in a company that he had no control over. He has not been allowed to leave the country at all and to return home, although I had thought that he was home. The Taoiseach said he knew the family in Dublin. He had a stroke on Tuesday last week and is in a critical condition. His family are desperately appealing to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Irish Embassy there to do something to try to get this man home, if he is fit to come home at this stage, given he is seriously ill. This has been dragging on for almost ten years now. It is totally unfair that he is incarcerated and, now, given the fact he has suffered this second stroke, his family are desperately anxious. I appeal to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Irish Embassy people to intervene in this case on humanitarian grounds to get him repatriated to his family after all those years.

The Taoiseach

I am aware of the case. He has some links to my constituency and we have raised it with the UAE authorities. I had thought we had come to a resolution on it some months ago but perhaps that is not the case. I will follow up on it again.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Ennis, like other market towns in Clare and market towns all over the country, has streets full of fine old buildings where there is a retail unit at ground level. In many but not all cases, they are vacant over ground level whereas, a century ago, there were families living in those. I do not underestimate the difficulty of converting those back into residential use, given there are regulations and issues around financing, but it would offer many benefits, not just in housing but also for the environment, for society and so on. For the Venice Biennale in 2018, we sent out a project looking at market towns and how to reinvigorate them. Will the Taoiseach consider a pilot project to bring properties like that back into residential use in Ennis and right across the country?

The Taoiseach

I might follow up on this with the Deputy later. I have already seen around the country a number of buildings brought back into use in residential form, a number of pubs that have been turned into residential accommodation and office blocks in this city that have been turned into residential accommodation.

Deputy Michael McNamara

But not where there are retail units on the ground level, which is more complicated.

The Taoiseach

That I am not sure of, but I will follow up with the Deputy. It certainly sounds like a good idea to me. I thought there were already schemes to allow for that, but maybe not.

Deputy Michael McNamara

It is very limited. There is the living city initiative. In any case, the Taoiseach is happy to talk about it so I thank him for that.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Some weeks ago, I raised with the Minister for Justice the need to introduce additional measures to tackle the scourge of drugs now prevalent in every community throughout our country. As we know, drug addiction and drug abuse are complex issues. We need a multifaceted approach that includes the health service as well as the criminal justice system. The Minister, Deputy Harris, replied to me that some additional legislative measures aimed at those who direct gangland crime and drug-related crime would be introduced. I welcome the Minister's commitment in that respect and hope that such measures can be put in place without delay. Sadly, individuals, families and communities are being destroyed by the prevalence of drugs and by drug peddling by criminals. I hope the Taoiseach can give an assurance that such legislation will be introduced without delay. We also need more help for victims, better resourcing of drug task forces and more support for groups working with people who are subject to addiction.

The Taoiseach

I totally agree with the Deputy that we need a holistic response that is about prevention and harm reduction and that treats this as a health issue as well as a criminal justice issue. The legislation the Minister has promised is on the way. I do not have a timeline for it yet but I know the Minister is committed to tightening our laws around people who direct others to commit crimes and people who groom children to commit crimes. That legislation is pending.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

In our programme for Government, we give a commitment to ensuring that inshore waters will continue to be protected for small fishing vessels and recreational fishers and that pair trawling will be prohibited inside the six mile limit. Were that not enough, under sustainable development goal 14.4, we have committed to effectively regulate destructive fishing practices and implement science-based management practices. However, just two weeks ago, Mr. Justice Murray upheld an appeal against the introduction of a policy directive to create such an exclusion zone for larger boats within the six nautical miles. His judgment does not say it as boldly as I will but we have made a bags of introducing and applying this directive. This directive is now overturned and we find ourselves back at square one; all the while we are fishing our seas out. Where do we go from here and, in a biodiversity crisis, how long will it take us to get there?

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I will take this. I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for the question. I know this is an issue to which he is strongly committed. I am also very committed to it. The previous Minister, Deputy Creed, initiated a process with regard to banning vessels of a certain size from the six mile zone. I agreed with that policy at the time. I believe it was the right policy. Unfortunately, the process was challenged in the courts on a number of grounds. We only received the judgment last week, which was made on one very small point. We are now reviewing that decision. I am committed to the policy. We are looking at how to proceed. The six mile zone is important for inshore vessels. It is important that the species in that area are protected. I am reviewing how to proceed.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Veterinary practices across the State are having difficulty recruiting vets. Many are retiring and many are leaving and we simply do not train enough to replace them. While there is a demand for veterinary studies, there are not sufficient higher education places and the drop-out rate can be quite high. The State needs a second veterinary school to address the challenges in recruitment. Many Irish students are currently studying veterinary medicine in European universities in Poland, Slovakia and Hungary. Discussions have recently been held with the University of Limerick regarding the establishment of a veterinary school on that campus. As the Taoiseach will know, the University of Limerick, located in the heart of the Golden Vale, has established fantastic programmes in equine science and antimicrobial resistance and would be well placed for the establishment of a veterinary school. The establishment of such a school should be a priority and I am eager to hear where the Higher Education Authority is with regard to the possibility of establishing such a school on the University of Limerick campus and what other higher education facilities have been considered with regard to any such establishment.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank Deputy Quinlivan for the question. This is something I have been working on with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris. There is a need and demand for additional veterinary medicine places. We are not training enough domestically to meet the demand. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has initiated a process with the Higher Education Authority around inviting and accepting applications from across the country to provide those additional places. A process is under way to assess those applications. The Higher Education Authority will then work with the Minister on the matter. He will be consulting and engaging with me and my Department with regard to rolling this out.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

I will ask the Taoiseach about two schemes announced by the Government in conjunction with the ending of the eviction ban. The first is the tenant in situ scheme whereby the local authority can acquire a house with a sitting tenant and rent it back to that tenant at a reasonable rent. The second is the first refusal scheme whereby a tenant has first refusal in the event of a landlord wanting to sell a house. Will the Taoiseach tell me whether those schemes are operational as we speak? For example, can a local authority now negotiate the purchase of such a property from a landlord who is willing to sell? If a landlord announces today that he is going to sell, does a tenant have first refusal? What happens if somebody outbids the tenant? If those schemes are not operational now, when will they come into operation?

The Taoiseach

There are three different schemes involved. The first is the tenant in situ scheme with respect to social housing tenants. That is in operation. Dublin City Council alone is in the process of purchasing approximately 300 properties. We are confident we will meet the target of 1,500 homes purchased under the tenant in situ scheme this year. We may even have to go higher if we are able to purchase more. From 1 April, that is being extended to people who do not qualify for social housing but who do qualify for cost rental. We are in talks with approved housing bodies to make that real within a week or two. First refusal is more complicated and will require primary legislation, which will take a number of months. We are looking at different models of how this is done in different countries. It is done differently in different countries. I will not go into too much detail but there are different ways of doing this and the scheme is going to take a few months to establish.

Deputy Pa Daly

Over the weekend, we saw a programme by the legendary broadcaster, David Attenborough, showcasing Killarney National Park. While there has been some progress on the contracts for the general operatives who work there and who, throughout the Covid pandemic, drove vehicles, tended to the herds, built fences, walkways, bridges and benches and even undertook a fire safety course, all of the praise we heard masks significant problems. We need an upland management scheme. We need a plan to deal with the deer and wild goats, from which practically every sapling in the national park is under threat, and we need a proper 15-year plan to finally eliminate rhododendron. If we are serious about it, we need to increase the number of staff. In 1983, there were 70 staff. There are now 12. Will the Government take steps to maintain what Attenborough described as astonishing scenery, animal dramas and wildlife spectaculars to match anything he had ever seen?

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I commend that wonderful documentary. It was a great credit to all of our staff in the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS. The strategy review of the NPWS the Government committed to and which it is now implementing is in train. The number of staff, including rangers and general operatives, across our national parks has increased significantly over the last year. I agree with the Deputy on deer management. It is an issue the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and I have been working on through the deer forum. We need to look at a significant cull of deer across the country. We need numbers and data. We certainly need a whole renewed approach to the issue because it is impacting very negatively on our biodiversity and, from reports I have read, particularly on the ability of the woodlands in Killarney National Park to regenerate naturally when the removal of rhododendron takes place. There is a significant amount of work to be done and a lot of work is under way with regard to the staffing levels we put in place over the last year in particular.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I will raise a horrible practice which has become more and more evident. I refer to the practice of Deputies and councillors in the Taoiseach's party, in parties supporting the Government and in the Opposition - although the Taoiseach might not be able to do much about people in Opposition - objecting to people building homes. In my opinion, it is not normal behaviour for an individual in this House to object to 5,000 homes being built in his or her constituency. That is not normal. The effect and result of such an objection is a delay in those projects being delivered or them not being delivered at all, meaning that homes are not made available on the market. People in the Opposition may say the reason they are objecting is that they are in the private market. Oh my goodness. Is there something so wrong with a builder wanting to build houses and put them up for sale in the public market? Is there something wrong with that? There is not.

If you want to make an omelette, you have to crack an egg. If we want to provide houses, we cannot have people shouting inside here about providing housing while at the same time using their poison pen to write objections. It is crazy. It is not normal behaviour.

The Taoiseach

I broadly agree with the Deputy's sentiments. I have not made a planning objection to a housing development or a negative observation on a planning for housing in seven or eight years. I cannot do it in clear conscience. When we are in a housing crisis, the perfect is the enemy of the good. I will not object to a development because it is not perfect. It is not entirely black and white though. There may be circumstances where a development is so egregious or so inappropriate that a Deputy or a councillor may object to it. What bothers me is when you see a pattern of somebody regularly objecting to new housing. They always have a reason - not now, not ever, not later, not here, not anywhere, not near me, not one-bedroom units, not tenants, not rent. That is what bothers me. It is not somebody perhaps objecting once, but multiple objections - a pattern.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are outside of time. There are three speakers left and I would ask for their co-operation. I will take all three. I call an Teachta Costello.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I welcome that the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has managed to reduce the fees for many people using childcare but the reality is that many families using childminders are still excluded from these supports. In my constituency, there is a mix of people who choose childminders who are excluded from these supports and people who cannot access crèche places who would not choose a childminder but are forced into that because of the lack of crèche spaces. When will a solution for those who choose to use childminding services be rolled out and what are we doing to ensure adequate crèche places?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

As the Taoiseach will be aware, there is quite a considerable shortage of taxis at present. One of the demands that the representative taxi groups have made is that taxi plate owners who are no longer using their taxi plates would be allowed to sell them to others, sometimes family members, who want to become taxi drivers. Otherwise, people can only get plates if they can afford expensive disability-accessible taxis which cost €65,000. That is way in excess of what huge numbers can afford. There are a lot of plates out there that are not being used but if they could be sold or transferred, we could increase taxi numbers.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I spoke to John, a constituent from Killaloe. His daughter, Livvy, is 11. She is autistic and has a moderate learning disability. At the start of this year, her behaviour took a downward spiral which saw her being suspended from school, attacking her father, his partner and her two brothers. Worse than that, she has recently started to say during these meltdowns that she wants to die. Livvy was seeing a psychiatrist in UHL, who has now left, and she has been waiting 18 months for a new appointment. When brought to child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, John was told that it is not the place for autistic children in Clare. There is no psychiatrist for children with disabilities in the entire mid-west. A Dublin-based locum, who is in the region every six weeks, cannot prioritise Livvy. If CAMHS is not the place for an autistic child who is experiencing suicidal ideation and suffers violent outbursts daily, where are they to go? Is it to accident and emergency at University Hospital Limerick, UHL? What is this family to do?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputies. On Deputy Costello's question, that is an issue that has come up a lot for me in my constituency too. Many people use childminders for lots of different reasons. It is the view of Government that we should include childminders in the early education and childcare structure and that people should be able to get the subsidies if they use a childminder but my understanding is that to do that they have to be registered with Tusla for good reasons around quality and child protection. We cannot be subsidising an unregistered childminder. We are trying to get that right to make it easier for childminders to get on the register and, therefore, easier for parents to get the subsidy. We will keep working on that. The Deputy has my assurance on that.

On the taxis, I am not aware of any plans to allow people to sell on their licences. That has consequences too. I am glad to hear Deputy Boyd Barrett is advocating, once again, on behalf of taxi drivers. The Deputy is a strong advocate for taxi drivers. It is one of the reasons I was so surprised to see in the Deputy's document that he believed some of them were in league with Fianna Fáil and part of this conspiracy to overthrow-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They used to vote for Fianna Fáil. They do not anymore.

Deputy Robert Troy

Some do.

The Taoiseach

Anyway, perhaps the Deputy was just being provocative.

I might ask the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to answer the question on CAMHS.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank Deputy Wynne for the question. I cannot comment on an individual case. If the Deputy wants to speak to me offline, I will see what we can do. There can be complex cases in relation to dual diagnosis. The multidisciplinary team in CAMHS will determine whether the child is suitable to be looked after by them. Sometimes, in relation to autism, it might be primary care. I will talk to the Deputy, if she wants to give me the details, and I will see if we can do anything to help.