Bernard Durkan
Ceist:1. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Taoiseach when the most recent meeting of the Cabinet committee on housing took place. [11561/23]
Ceisteanna - Questions
Cabinet Committees
Richard Boyd Barrett
Ceist:2. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [11605/23]
Bríd Smith
Ceist:3. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [11608/23]
Gino Kenny
Ceist:4. Deputy Gino Kenny asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [11610/23]
Cian O'Callaghan
Ceist:5. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [12946/23]
Paul McAuliffe
Ceist:6. Deputy Paul McAuliffe asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [13066/23]
Mary Lou McDonald
Ceist:7. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [12972/23]
Bernard Durkan
Ceist:8. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update in respect of the Cabinet committee on housing. [13633/23]
Ivana Bacik
Ceist:9. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [13432/23]
Rose Conway-Walsh
Ceist:10. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [14962/23]
Peadar Tóibín
Ceist:11. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [15129/23]
Gary Gannon
Ceist:12. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach when the most recent meeting of the Cabinet committee on housing took place. [14893/23]
Mick Barry
Ceist:13. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [15252/23]
Alan Dillon
Ceist:14. Deputy Alan Dillon asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on housing will next meet. [15437/23]
Richard Boyd Barrett
Ceist:15. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he is planning to publish a Housing for All report with the final figures of housing delivered for the whole of 2022; and when he expects to do this. [15431/23]
Bríd Smith
Ceist:16. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach if he is planning to publish a Housing for All report with the final figures of housing delivered for the whole of 2022; and when he expects to do this. [15433/23]
I propose to answer questions Nos. 1 to 16, inclusive, together.
The Cabinet committee on housing last met on 2 March. The next meeting of the committee is scheduled for 17 April. This committee works to ensure a co-ordinated approach to the implementation of Housing for All. Progress on Housing for All is reported on a quarterly basis. The latest progress report, for quarter 4 of 2022, was published on 7 February. The report for quarter 1 of 2023 will be published in April.
Solving the housing crisis is one of the greatest political challenges we face and it is an imperative. Due to a rising population, smaller household size and the scarring effects of the construction, banking and fiscal crisis, we have an enormous deficit of housing in Ireland, perhaps a quarter of a million units, but we are making real progress. In 2022, almost 30,000 new homes were completed in Ireland, not including student accommodation and derelict homes brought back into use. This is the highest since 2008. When verified and published in the coming weeks, figures will show that more social housing was built in 2022 than in any other year in decades, certainly since the mid-1970s. To ensure the substantial uplift in supply in 2022 can be maintained and exceeded, which is the objective, a record €4.5 billion in State housing investment has been allocated for 2023, to build 9,100 new social homes and 5,500 affordable programme homes, including 1,850 cost rental homes. New measures to further enhance the supply of social homes and reduce the impact from challenges in the private rental sector have been agreed. Through Housing for All we are also accelerating the adoption of modern methods of construction with 30 sites identified for rapid build of 1,500 new social homes, and driving significant reforms including the new planning and development Bill.
The most effective way to resolve the challenges currently being experienced is to increase supply and accelerate the delivery of housing for purchase, and for private rental, cost rental and social rental.
Notwithstanding all the debate that has surrounded this issue in recent weeks and over the past couple of years, a new initiative is required which would give an indication to the general public that help is on the way. I note that last year was the best delivery for a long time. The Government needs to make the case also that local authorities do not build houses and have not done for 30 or 40 years. They are contracted out to builders who are professionals in that game and who can provide the houses very effectively and speedily. Might it be possible, and I note the initiative has been taken already in a number of schemes around the country, to double up that number with a view to making it known to the general public that there is a serious effort being made to accelerate delivery through the methods I have suggested?
The Government may have voted confidence in itself over the cruel decision to lift the eviction moratorium but Government Deputies would be fools if they thought the public has confidence in them on the housing issue. That is why I hope we will see thousands of people outside the Dáil on Saturday at 1 p.m. for the Cost of Living Coalition's demonstration in response to the Government's decision on the eviction ban. It is not because of performance theatrics from the Opposition, or however the Taoiseach wants to describe it, that people will be there. Just before I came in here I went on daft.ie and myhome.ie. There is one house in the entirety of south Dublin within the housing assistance payment, HAP, limits. The vast majority of them are in the region of €2,400, €2,500, €3,000 and €4,000 a month. That is way above the HAP limits, if people are even entitled to HAP, and completely unaffordable for the vast majority. People are in a hopeless situation but the Government will not control rents and it is still willing to allow people to be evicted into that hopeless situation. In my area there was a handful of local authority houses built last year. What does the Taoiseach expect people to do other than to protest and be angry at the Government's failure to deliver them some sort of hope?
I want to point out that the Dublin Region Homeless Executive sent a circular to councillors in the last week to offer reassurance to HAP, rental accommodation scheme, RAS and other tenants who may be affected by notices of termination. The reassurance they give is that they refer the tenant to Threshold. A HAP tenant can look for alternative accommodation on the rental market. They will assess their social housing needs as a matter of course.
Dublin City Council is employing a considerable degree of flexibility in respect of tenant in situ purchases. I would not be reassured if I had a notice of eviction. I know the woman who issued the circular. She is a fine representative for the interests of housing, but I have no doubt her hands are tied behind her back.
We need a continuation of the no-fault eviction ban. Despite what all of those on the Government side have said, we need to establish a public building company that will build houses at the scale needed. We need to introduce a use it or lose it scheme, increase Part V developments and expand the tenant in situ targets. I ask the Taoiseach not to tell me that the Opposition has failed to come up with Bills, ideas or proposals to try to help resolve this crisis. We are blue in the face putting forward motions and Bills and being voted down. The protest on Saturday, 1 April, will be held here on Kildare St. and is important for anybody who wants to see real change in this country. We saw earlier the charade of Independents and others backing a failed Government. The only answer is people power and feet on the streets.
Over the next few months, many people will find themselves in a situation they never thought they would be in, namely potentially being homeless. It is not their choice; rather, it is the choice of this Administration. I am sure I speak for everybody when I say I hope that scenario does not happen and that families or individuals who cannot even get emergency accommodation will not have to go to a police station or airport. That is now within the realm of possibility.
If that happens, and it could happen, the damage for the Government is something from which it will not recover. The optics of families having to go to police stations would be unforgivable. In those circumstances, what measures has the Government put in place in terms of contingencies for families if they find there is no emergency accommodation available? That is the question everyone wants answered.
The Taoiseach said it is very rare that a judge would evict a family into homelessness. However, solicitors specialising in housing law have said they do not know of a single case in Ireland where a judge sided with renters facing homelessness and did not grant an eviction order. I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that solicitors working to support renters at the coalface in the Mercy Law Centre and community mediation know what they are talking about. On what basis has the Taoiseach made the assertion that judges do not grant eviction orders that will make families homeless? Does he accept what solicitors who are working in this area are saying? If he does, will he withdraw the comments he has made about this which do not reflect the reality of what is happening on the ground?
I refer to the readiness of local authorities to deal with the increase in the number of people presenting as homeless expected because of the lifting of the eviction ban. My local authority has taken out an advertisement in the local paper this week calling for expressions of interest for emergency accommodation, such is the scramble in that regard.
Regarding the tenant in situ scheme, it has been operated restrictively in County Meath and many other local authorities. There is a target of just 40 units for County Meath, where there are in excess of 100 people with a notice to quit. In terms of emergency accommodation and the tenant in situ scheme, can the Taoiseach please provide an update on the level of readiness in local authorities?
While the Government won the vote of confidence today with the support of some Independents, we still have no clarity from it on the measures that will be in place in three days' time for families facing eviction from 1 April. I appeal to the Taoiseach to take the last chance offered by the vote later today on the Sinn Féin Bill which we, and Opposition parties generally, will support. It is one last chance to ensure the no-fault eviction ban is extended on a temporary basis to give the Government the necessary time that is needed. In fairness, most Government backbenchers admit that time is needed to make the legislative changes the Taoiseach has indicated are being planned for. It will need time to put it in place new measures and build up the capacity within local authorities to operate the tenant in situ scheme. That is all we are looking to do. It would be a reasonable thing to extend the ban at this point.
We will continue to put forward constructive proposals. Government Members may scoff at the figures Labour has given, but we are basing them on statutory agencies' projections of need. Some 50,000 new builds a year will be needed to meet the demands of our communities. The Taoiseach said there is currently a shortfall of 250,000 homes. He has set ambitious targets for retrofitting and the refurbishment of vacant homes. We are simply using those figures to show the Government the scale of the ambition that is needed in an economy that is running a surplus of €5.3 billion. The Government has to do more on housing.
Today, the Taoiseach and Government have one last chance to stop the backslapping and answer the question asked by people in Mayo and every other county who are being forced to move out of their homes this weekend and in the coming weeks, namely where do they go. Mayo is the county of Michael Davitt. How disgraceful is it that almost 100 years after his death, evictions would feature in the daily life of a county and country he fought so hard for? The Taoiseach and Government have chosen to devastate lives by not extending the eviction ban to allow time to put alternative accommodation in place. They have done what they told them to do, namely, go to council offices. There is no emergency accommodation in Mayo The best people can hope for is vouchers for bed and breakfasts which are already booked out for Easter. Others are trapped paying sky-high rents and living in cramped accommodation, while putting their lives on hold because of the Government's failed housing policies. Families, pensioners and single people are facing homelessness under the Government's poor decisions. All they are asking for is breathing space to allow them to have somewhere to live.
I urge the Taoiseach to give clarity to my question. I refer to the enormity of the decision the Government has made to delete the eviction ban. How was that decision made at Cabinet? Was it made on the basis of modelling from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage? Was it made based on advice from economists as to the impact it would likely have? Was it made based on any evidence or information?
I put questions to the Minister for Social Protection and a Green Party Minister on whether they had seen any evidence or modelling as to the impact of the decision on the number of people who will be made homeless over the next number of months. They could not answer the question. I am now asking the Taoiseach to answer that question. Was this decision made based on evidence, a hunch or ideology? If we are having an evidence-free decision on an issue of this importance, that has enormous ramifications for many people's lives. It also has ramifications for the level of contingency the Government has put in place to deal with the crisis that is about to unfold over the next number of months.
The eviction ban will be lifted at the weekend. Where will people go? Let us break it down. Some people will find alternative rental accommodation; they will be a small minority. Others will crash with family, in the hope it will only be for a couple of weeks rather than stretching out into months. Other people will beg for a place to stay with friends. Some will go to homeless services, and some of those people will get emergency accommodation. How long will they be stuck there for? With 17 out of 31 local authorities saying they are full, undoubtedly some people who will go to homeless services will not be accommodated. Where do they go? There has been talk of Garda stations. What happens in such an eventuality? Has an instruction been given to gardaí to accommodate people in those circumstances? Is it up to the superintendent on a station-by-station basis? Are there any other emergency plans in place? People need to know the answers to those questions and I look forward to hearing the reply.
Like many others, I am incredibly worried about the eviction ban being lifted. As has been said by others, the Sinn Féin Bill provides one last opportunity for Deputies to vote in the correct way.
I ask for clarity on the tenant in situ scheme. Louth County Council is considering purchases for people who have been on the housing list for five years or more, but it has to be the same as they could avail of if they were bidding on choice-based lettings.
If there is a room too many or a room too few, as far as I understand it, it will not be considered. What direction is being given to councils regarding the criteria? What will the criteria be for the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme for those not on the housing list? What is the timeline for that?
I ask the Taoiseach to be very brief.
You had better give the Taoiseach some extra time, Acting Chair.
Allow the Taoiseach some extra time.
It will come out of the final slot.
Yes.
The first question came from my colleague, Deputy Durkan. I agree with his basic contention that we need to accelerate the implementation of Housing for All. We have made progress but we need to do a lot more and a lot quicker. I agree with what he said in that regard. There are lots of reasons for hope by the way. We have more house building than at any time since 2008, more first-time buyers than any time since 2010, and more new social housing than any time since the 1970s, yet we need to accelerate that and make more progress more quickly. Does this mean increasing our housing targets? Yes, I think it does. Work is being done on that, but they also need to be realistic. It is disingenuous to set housing targets that cannot be met. Even Sinn Féin agrees with that if the Labour Party does not.
They can be met with the right build.
We need to increase our efforts, ambition and delivery. Deputy Durkan is absolutely right in that regard - not just to say it or demonstrate it, but to do it.
In regard to Deputy Boyd Barrett's question on protests, I have no difficulty at all with protests. They are an important part of democracy. They are not allowed in some countries which he champions, but they are allowed-----
That is absolutely untrue.
-----in this country, provided the protests are peaceful.
The Taoiseach should not say that. It is not true. There is not a single country I champion that-----
Are protests allowed to take place peacefully in Cuba and Venezuela?
I am not a supporter of the Cuban regime.
Could we please keep to the responses to the questions asked?
I am glad that it is on the record of the House that the Deputy is not supportive of Cuba. I thank him.
He never was.
I never was.
I thank the Deputy. That is a revelation. I do apologise and withdraw-----
Could we just go back to the topic please?
The Taoiseach needs to read more left-wing pamphlets.
I do apologise and withdraw it if I was mistaken in ever thinking that Deputy Smith and Deputy Boyd Barrett were ever supporters of Cuba.
I am sure there is another forum in which the issue can be teased out. Let us move back to Taoiseach's Questions.
They have confirmed that they have never been supporters of Cuba. It is on the record of the House today. I have no problem or objection and I welcome peaceful protest.
A number of Deputies referred to the motion of confidence. I note that we won by a margin of almost 20. We did not need the votes of Independent Deputies, but we had quite a lot of them, which is very welcome, and I thank them for it. Given the margin of victory, it is difficult to understand why some commentators seem to be thinking in the past week or two that the Government was ever under pressure or that there was ever any possibility of us losing that vote. There was not. This Government has a comfortable majority and it has a super majority with the help of a number of Independents. This is the fourth Dáil of which I am a Member, and I have not seen Governments win votes as big, with the exception of the time we were in government with the Labour Party and we also had a super majority because the two biggest parties in the Dáil were in the same coalition. I can give people the assurance that this Government is built to last. This is a government that can go full term.
On the idea of establishing a public building company, we have established a new public company, the Land Development Agency. It was opposed by most of the left-wing Deputies in this House. In fairness, it was supported by the Labour Party, but not the Social Democrats. I am glad that company exists and that it is now building housing not too far from the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, in Shanganagh. I believe in time it will be as big a game changer as the IDA, Aer Lingus and the ESB were. It is a public house building company that is going to build homes on behalf of the State. It is a really positive development. It got off to a slow start. I am disappointed about that, but it is getting going now. We need to give it the capital it needs to do a lot more.
I think the suggestion from the Deputy is a slightly different one, that there should be direct labour, and that such a company would take on construction workers. Like any idea, I think that it is worthy of being scoped out.
It should not be for profit.
I think there are pros and cons. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that when the Government or the public sector builds something that it takes longer and costs more. That may be for very good reasons. It might be because the workers have better pensions or pay and because we have to go through certain public procedures, but it probably is the case that if the Government does something, for lots of good reasons, it is going to cost more and it is going to take longer. We would have to bear that in mind in any policy decision.
Like broadband.
It might also displace workers and displace development from the private sector at a higher cost and take longer. We need to bear those things in mind too when we make decisions.
We are running out of time.
I asked a question on evidence and modelling from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.
What about the tenant in situ scheme?
The Taoiseach will be the third Minister not to answer that question if he does not answer it now.
I answered twice already in previous sessions.
Could we extend the time in order to get answers?
Just so Members are aware, we have 24 minutes left overall for Taoiseach's Questions. We have already eaten into the time-----
Let us knock one of the three groups. These questions need to be answered.
Just so Members are aware, it will come out of time at the end. Does the Taoiseach want to conclude and to respond to the other questions?
I am happy to respond to the Deputy's questions. I am at a slight disadvantage here in that it takes much longer to answer a question than to ask it. I may need the entire remainder of this session to do so.
That is okay.
I was asked about emergency accommodation. There is more emergency accommodation coming on stream. As I have always said, emergency accommodation is not a solution. It is only a backstop and it is only a temporary solution that some people need sometimes. In many cases, it is for a few weeks or a few months. It is certainly our objective that if anyone needs emergency accommodation it should not be for a prolonged period.
Sometimes it is for years.
Sometimes it can be, but it is not usually for years. It is mostly for less than a year.
It can be four years.
As Deputy Boyd Barrett knows, it is often the case that when we drill into those individual cases it can be quite a complicated story. In some cases people have been offered social housing and they have not accepted it, perhaps for good reasons, and in other cases they may not be entitled to social housing at all. An increasing feature of people in emergency accommodation is that they do not have an entitlement to social housing. That is something we are going to need to find a solution to, because it is making the problem more complex to solve. As I have said before, the solution in the vast majority of cases is going to be additional social housing and new tenancies, whether HAP or non-HAP. There were 50,000 new tenancies created last year. I hope there will be roughly 50,000 new tenancies created this year. That will be the solution for the vast majority of people. That is the answer to the question of where people go in the vast majority of cases.
In response to Deputy Cian O'Callaghan's question, I know of cases where judges have given a stay on issuing an eviction order. I would be happy to, with their permission-----
Stays are different.
A stay is different.
What happens is a very practical, fair and humanitarian thing. If a case comes before a judge and a person is facing eviction into homelessness, what a judge will often do – it is up to them to hear all sides of the case and do the kind of thing we do not allow ourselves to do in this House – is to say they are not issuing the order for eviction and that they are going to allow some time for a solution to be found. That is what I was referring to. It would be very rare for that not to be the case. It would be useful for the Deputy to ask the question of solicitors and his legal contacts as to how many actual eviction orders are issued in this State every year. One would have the impression from some of the Deputies in this House that it is tens of thousands.
Most people cannot stand the pressure so they leave.
It would be interesting for them to ask the question of how many eviction orders are issued by the courts every year in Ireland. Thankfully, in Ireland, unlike in many other countries, getting an eviction order from the courts, which is the only place one can get an eviction order from, is not that easy.
In regard to how the decision was made by the Cabinet, it was made on the recommendation of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It was made on the advice of his officials, who strongly recommended in favour of not extending the temporary winter eviction ban. As the Minister has explained, the advice and his assessment is that extending what was always a temporary winter eviction ban, for a prolonged period would make the homelessness situation worse later. That is the basis-----
Because landlords would leave the market.
What is the modelling?
For lots of reasons. That was the basis for the decision.
The Government has never proven how it causes landlords to leave the market.
In regard to the modelling question, which I have answered on numerous occasions, this is an area that is almost impossible to model statistically. First, there are lots of reasons people end up homeless in emergency accommodation, for example, family breakdown. There is no way of statistically modelling how many families are going to break down in the next month or the next six months.
There are averages.
It is not something that is possible to do accurately.
Modelling by its nature is not accurate.
We have seen an increasing number of families presenting for emergency accommodation who are not citizens of the State.
It gives us information.
There are all sorts of different people with all sorts of different stories. There is no way to accurately model that. There is also no way to accurately model the number of notices of termination that will result in eviction orders, for example.
We need evidence to make decisions.
We are trying to do that all the time but to accurately project it is very difficult for anyone to do.
I am not aware of any instructions given to the Garda in regard to this.
Could I have clarification? Is the Garda obliged to take in a family with children, or-----
We are going to move to Questions Nos. 17 to 22, inclusive.
There are people who want an answer to the question. Will the Taoiseach please answer the question very briefly?
Is the Garda obliged-----
The Taoiseach has already answered those questions.
-----or is it on a station-by-station basis.
The Taoiseach has answered the questions.
To help the Deputy, I do not know the answer to that question but will check and return to him.
So we do not know?
I would need another ten minutes to answer that one. The Deputy asked about several criteria-----
We do not know the answer to the question.
-----concerning two different schemes.
The Taoiseach has answered and might revert to the Deputy, as he has indicated.
He does not know the answer to the question.
He is going to revert to the Deputy on that.
It is an incredible position.
Departmental Properties
Mary Lou McDonald
Ceist:17. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [12443/23]
Ivana Bacik
Ceist:18. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [15090/23]
Richard Boyd Barrett
Ceist:19. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [15153/23]
Bríd Smith
Ceist:20. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [15156/23]
Gary Gannon
Ceist:21. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [14894/23]
Mick Barry
Ceist:22. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's resource-efficiency action plan. [15253/23]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 17 to 22, inclusive, together.
The Department's 2022 resource-efficiency action plan sets out a range of actions to improve the management of energy, water, material and waste resources within the Department and to increase sustainability awareness among staff. It also includes measures on levels of energy and water usage and waste produced by the Department so improvements can be tracked and measured following the implementation of planned actions.
The implementation of the actions set out in the plan is overseen by the Department's green team, with progress made to date, including the retrofitting of all light fittings with LEDs and the installation of sensor lighting; increasing energy awareness among staff via workshops and regular communications; the installation of sensor taps in the main bathroom areas; the installation of brown waste bins and recycling stations; the removal of desk bins on a voluntary basis; and the installation of covered bicycle parking facilities at Government Buildings to encourage cycling.
As part of the Reduce Your Use public sector campaign, initiated in 2022 to reduce energy use by up to 15% in public buildings, the Department has reduced the hours of heating by 14% and external lighting by 75%. From 2023, under the Government's climate action plan, the Department is required to publish a new climate action roadmap to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by more than half by 2030 and increase the improvement in energy efficiency from the 33% target in 2020 to 50% by 2030. The first iteration of the climate action roadmap for the Department of the Taoiseach has been developed with the assistance of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and will be published in the coming weeks. This will incorporate actions on the wider energy efficiency initiated through the resource-efficiency action plan process.
Has the Department green procurement policies that relate to all procurement? It was intended in an earlier iteration of the action plan to consider various services used by the Department. With regard to the procurement of vehicles for the Department, there is an electric vehicle, EV, policy pathway that states the Department should be considering procuring EVs instead of vehicles with internal combustion engines. The Taoiseach mentioned LED lighting in respect of the retrofitting of buildings. Is there a plan to address the fabric of buildings?
The Taoiseach set out some of the resource-efficiency practices that have been put in place in Government Buildings, including through the provision of bicycle parking facilities. That is very welcome but I ask the Taoiseach to use his influence with the OPW, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the Ceann Comhairle to ensure cycle-friendly, active-travel-friendly measures are implemented here in Leinster House. For some years now, I and several other cyclists have been trying to get covered bicycle-parking facilities put in place at Leinster House. What we have currently are a few derisory bike racks. There are no covers for those of us who cycle in the rain, who regularly get soaked. There is an embarrassment of cars parked everywhere around the Leinster House campus. I had visitors recently from the British Labour Party. Mr. Peter Kyle, the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, was here on Monday but a large SUV was parked right in front of the front door of Leinster House. That should be the flagship area. Regularly people, including visiting dignitaries, congregate there to get their photographs taken. It is unacceptable and embarrassing that we still have not got visible, bicycle-friendly parking facilities in our Houses of Parliament, even as we hear from the Taoiseach about the very welcome measures being adopted to ensure better bike-parking facilities in Government Buildings. It is just one small thing but it could make a huge difference in terms of sending out a powerful signal about our ambition to target the catastrophe of climate change and reduce our emissions as a State institution.
I wish to take the Taoiseach up on something he said about the State most likely being slower than the private sector regarding retrofitting and the construction of social housing, for example. On the construction of social housing, there is a PPP being developed across three local authority areas to build a relatively small number of social housing units. In the four-year timeline given by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, which was involved in two of the PPPs, by far the biggest time lag in the delivery of social housing was associated with the tendering process concerning private contractors. In fact, Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Services has said procurement issues to do with going to the private sector are a major problem, far bigger than Part 8 planning or anything like that, which takes only a few weeks. I put it to the Taoiseach that the opposite of what he said is the truth. In other words, the tendering process involving private contractors, the competition related to those contractors and the possibility that they will go out of business, which happens very regularly, comprise the major factor delaying the delivery of public projects, whether they involve building houses or retrofitting houses. If we had our own directly employed labour force with the requisite skills and professions, we could send people out directly to do the work.
We have probably all known for a while now that data centre operators have been developing their own energy capacity in recent years. We are all aware of the danger of the blackouts we were warned would occur over the winter months. These did not happen but the full extent of generation capacity has only recently been learned and revealed. It indicates just how considerable the energy demand of the centres has become. The likes of Microsoft, Amazon and Google, along with other data centres, are organising on-site gas capacity that would, if combined, meet the generation needs of the entire country. It is very much the intention to back up their energy needs with all this gas.
I put this to the Taoiseach in the context of the recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report. That report has given us a last warning to reduce our emissions, end of story. The scale at which our emissions would go up should the data centres start to use the extra capacity is absolutely startling and frightening. It would undo all the targets we have set ourselves. The proliferation of the data centres is such that we really need to ask ourselves what we are doing in this country. It is utter madness. Eight of 16 are hyper-scale and due to come on board in the next couple of years. That is on top of the 40-plus that are already feeding off our national grid. We need to ask the question seriously, investigate the matter, be absolutely honest with ourselves and stop protecting the multinationals.
I thank the Deputies. On the question on protecting multinationals, the Government works with multinationals. We encourage them to invest here. There are 300,000 people in the State who work for multinationals, including in my constituency and that of the Deputy. Owing to the number employed and the contracts the multinationals issue, there are probably another 200,000 or 300,000 people indirectly employed by them. They also pay billions of euro in corporate tax. While they might not be angels, I guarantee the Deputy that this country would be a lot worse off if it did not have the employment and revenue.
Data centres do not provide many jobs.
I believe my Department has green procurement policies. I am not 100% sure, but I am not 100% sure for a very good reason, that is, the fact that I have no role in procurement. That is a matter for the Secretary General. I have no role whatsoever in awarding any contracts to any companies on behalf of my Department.
I was asked about vehicles. The Department does not have any vehicles, or at least none that I am aware of. An EV charger has been in place in Government Buildings for quite some time. We have two covered bike racks. It took ages to get it done but they are now done and are very nice. In my previous Department, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and very much led by my Secretary General at the time, Dr. Orlaigh Quinn, we put bees on the roof to produce our own honey and have plans to put solar on the roof as well. I would like us to do the same in Government Buildings. It is a big roof space. I have been up there. There is an old helipad from the past that is no longer used that would be great for solar, bees and pollinators. This is something I am working on but, again, it needs the approval of my Secretary General and the OPW for that to be done. The other thing I would like to do is at least experiment with rewilding or allowing a wildflower meadow to develop on the green area outside Government Buildings, as has been done outside Trinity College. It is not going to change the world or the environment or make a huge difference in terms of biodiversity or emissions, but it would be a good statement, so greening our building is something I am working on. It is very much up to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to make decisions regarding the Oireachtas but I do appoint members to it and I will certainly discuss it with the members I have appointed to it.
I do not think Deputy Boyd Barrett is wrong about public-private partnerships. Sometimes they can take a long time. Grangegorman is one example. Direct contracts can also take a long time. The national children's hospital might be an example of that, but in the round as opposed to the minority, I do think it takes the State longer to do things than the private sector and it does generally cost more - often for good reasons because the staff are paid more and have better pensions and a transparent procurement process must be gone through when it involves anything to do with public money and the State. There has been a study, which I have not read in a long time so I would have to go back to it, that compared how long it takes Dublin City Council, for example, to build social housing and the cost relative to the private sector doing it. I think that showed there was a premium to be paid if it was done by a public body rather than privately.
It is a good thing that people who were not aware are now aware that data centres have enormous generating capacity of their own. They are power stations as well as being data storage facilities. A very false narrative was put across last year that data centres were going to suck electricity out of the grid and leave us all facing power cuts. We on this side of the House at least always knew and understood that data centres have their own generating capacity, and if it was the case that we ever ran into energy security issues or faced brownouts or blackouts, we would have been asking the data centres to help us and not the other way round.
Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements
Richard Boyd Barrett
Ceist:23. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez. [15154/23]
Bríd Smith
Ceist:24. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez. [15157/23]
Seán Haughey
Ceist:25. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez. [15159/23]
Gary Gannon
Ceist:26. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with the Spanish Prime Minister. [14895/23]
Ivana Bacik
Ceist:27. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez. [15092/23]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 23 to 27, inclusive, together.
I hosted the President of the Government of Spain, Pedro Sánchez, for a working lunch in Government Buildings on Thursday, 2 March. Ireland is currently marking 50 years of EU membership and Spain is advancing preparations for its Presidency of the EU Council in the second half of the year.
Both our countries have been transformed by our membership of the European Union. Shared EU membership has also enabled us to strengthen our bilateral ties so that the relationship between Ireland and Spain has never been stronger or more positive.
While Prime Minister Sánchez and I see each other regularly at meetings of the European Council in Brussels, his visit to Dublin allowed us to discuss in greater depth some of the challenges facing Europe and the world and how we can strengthen Irish-Spanish bilateral relations. We discussed current issues on the EU agenda, including solidarity with Ukraine as it fights off Russia’s attack, accelerating the transition to sustainable energy resources and ensuring a strong European economy into the future in the interests of our citizens.
One of the most significant achievements of the European Union is the Single Market, which is marking its 30th anniversary this year. Unlocking the full potential of the Single Market, including for services and in the digital space, is essential for Europe’s future competitiveness and prosperity. In particular, we must be ready to seize the opportunities and potential of the green transition, which means having the right framework conditions in place to bring abundant renewable energy resources to businesses and households at an affordable price.
I also took the opportunity to thank President Sánchez for Spain’s solidarity throughout the Brexit process. I briefed him on the potential of the Windsor Framework to help pave the way for the restoration of the institutions under the Good Friday Agreement and to bring about more positive relations between the EU and the UK. He briefed me on developments in relation to Gibraltar. I expressed Ireland's solidarity with Spain and our hope for a positive outcome to those negotiations. I also met President Sánchez last week at a meeting of the European Council in Brussels, and I am likely to meet him again at a Council of Europe meeting in Reykjavik in May.
I want to ask the Taoiseach a question I asked him the other day in the context of his discussions with his European counterparts to which I never get an answer. I have asked several times and I asked the Tánaiste and other Ministers. The Taoiseach and his European counterparts have within a very short space of time imposed sanctions on Putin and Russia for what is unquestionably a barbaric, unjustified and murderous invasion of Ukraine - illegal occupation of Ukrainian territory, denial of self-determination, breaches of international law, crimes against humanity, war crimes and so on. For that, the Taoiseach says we must have instantaneous sanctions.
Israel is indicted for all the same things, and not just for a year or two but for decades. Every day, we see evidence of the war crimes, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity, the ongoing criminal, and it is criminal, siege of Gaza, the denial of the right of return to millions of refugees, and the apartheid policies where there is one law if a person is Jewish and another if a person is Palestinian. Never ever are sanctions imposed. They are resisted actively, and Israel is given favoured trade status; not sanctions and never a suggestion that maybe the Palestinians, who have the right under international law to militarily resist an illegal occupation, that maybe they should get military aid for that resistance. Was there ever such a suggestion? Of course not, and I would not advocate it by the way, but will the Taoiseach explain the contrast?
I am very interested to hear about the issues the Taoiseach discussed with Prime Minister Sánchez. Since the UK left the EU, Ireland has lost an ally on a wide range of matters, but we have been busy forging alliances on all the various issues of the day such as the Single Market, the digital Single Market, financial rules, the rule of law, migration and agriculture to name a few. This is important given the role played by qualified majority voting. I am aware that we worked with Spain in the past on Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, reform. Spain, too, has concerns about migration and migrants crossing from Morocco to the north African enclave of Melilla. The European Commission has launched an anti-smuggling operational partnership with Morocco. In this context, has the Taoiseach discussed the proposed EU pact on migration and asylum, which was first published in 2020 with Prime Minister Sánchez? This process provides for the sharing of responsibility and solidarity. In his role as a prime minister at the European Council meeting, does the Taoiseach think that agreement on this pact is likely any time soon?
I thank the Taoiseach for his update on his engagement with the Spanish Prime Minister. Indeed Prime Minister Sánchez attended a Party of European Socialists party leaders' event, which I also attended, in Berlin in October. He spoke there about the Iberian social democratic model of energy price cap that he and the Portuguese Prime Minister, who is also a member of the Party of European Socialists, had implemented. In his engagement with Prime Minister Sánchez, did the Taoiseach discuss with him that model of price cap on energy, which has been successfully implemented in Spain and Portugal to address rising energy costs and help people get through a cost-of-living crisis?
It is a fair question. He will not agree with the answer but I will give him one: there are differences. Ukraine, for a start, is a European country. It is an EU candidate country. It is an established recognised independent state, recognised by Ireland. It is a democratic state. It is one that upholds the human rights of its citizens. Also, Russia's expansion and imperialism does not just threaten Ukraine. It threatens Moldova and the Baltic states. President Putin has been very clear that he laments the fall of the USSR and that does not just threaten Ukraine. It threatens other parts of Europe too. While there are parallels with the situation in Palestine, it is not the exact same. The history is different. Israel was established by UN mandate. The Arab state that was also established by UN mandate was rejected by other Arabs and other Arab states. Of course, we should never forget that refugees went in both directions. It is terrible what happened to Palestinians in the Nakba being thrown out of their homes and forced to become refugees in surrounding countries and on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. But we should never forget that massive Jewish populations in Egypt, Baghdad and Syria were also dispossessed.
They were encouraged by the Zionists.
The difference is that they were looked after. They were not forced to remain refugees for generations which sadly is what has happened to Palestinians in many other parts of the region. So there are parallels but there are also huge differences and I have just touched on a few.
Deputy Haughey raised Melilla and Ceuta and migration. The recent tragic events in the Mediterranean highlight once again the need to deal with migration in a comprehensive and holistic way and to make sure we have agreements with countries of origin or countries of transit like Morocco. While the social, economic and political stresses arising from the crisis are very considerable, Ireland is committed to continuing the work with our EU partners to ensure the humanitarian and legal obligations continue to be met. Last week we received an update from the European Commission on progress made implementing the conclusions adopted at the special meeting of the European Council in February. The focus of that meeting was on co-operation with third countries, strengthening the EU's external borders and more efficient return of those without the right to stay in the EU. Last week, the European Council called for swift implementation of all items agreed upon. We will return to the issue of migration at our meeting in June.
What about the energy price cap introduced in Spain and whether that was discussed at the meeting with Pedro Sánchez?
It was discussed. The view from President Sánchez was that we should reform the entire EU energy market and the way it works. There are different views on that. We would regard the Iberian exception as exactly that. One of the issues that has arisen as a consequence of the price cap, and this was accepted and discussed at the meeting, is a big increase in the use of gas by Spain and Portugal and a big increase in imports of gas there which has costs and climate consequences.
Is féidir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scríofa ar
www.oireachtas.ie
.
Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.
Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 2.13 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.14 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 2.13 p.m. until 3.14 p.m.