Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 2023

Vol. 1036 No. 6

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Fine Gael has been in power now for more than 12 years. In this time we have seen Government make decision after decision that have escalated the housing crisis into a full-blown emergency. Rents are out of control and a whole generation is locked out of homeownership. Homelessness has reached a record level that we could only have imagined.

This is the dire situation seven years after the Minister opposite, when he was the Minister with responsibility for housing, said the Government would end homelessness. It failed because, even with a significant recovery in public finances, the Government refused to provide the necessary investment in housing. Instead of building homes, Fine Gael pushed thousands of people into the private rental market. That is what has brought us to where we are today. The problem then and now is not public finances but the attitude of the Government. The Government is the problem.

The housing insecurity that renters live with every day is highlighted by the colossal increase in the numbers now contacting housing charity Threshold. In lifting the eviction ban without any protections in place, the Government has chosen to make the fear of losing one's home a reality for thousands of renters. These are people who work hard, pay their rent and do everything to build a decent life. They are being robbed of the roof over their heads, not through any fault of their own but by way of a cruel Government decision.

Eviction notices are landing every day and the Government has no plan, no safety net and no intention other than to dig in. Cá bhfuil daoine ceaptha dul? Chuireamar an cheist sin ar an Taoiseach, ar an Tánaiste, agus ar an Aire Tithíochta, Rialtais Áitiúil agus Oidhreachta agus níor thug aon duine freagra inchreidte. An féidir leis an Aire atá i láthair an cheist sin a fhreagairt?

Yesterday I put four stories of those facing eviction to the Taoiseach. We have received countless more. I want the Minister to hear what these people have to say. Eamon writes:

My son, his wife and their three children are to be evicted in June. They have nowhere to go. My son works very hard, but he still can’t afford to buy a house. It’s shocking what’s happening to hard working people in this country.

Margaret says:

My daughter has two kids. She received her eviction notice. She has to be out on the day of her baby’s first birthday. They can’t find another place. What are they going to do?

Colm tells us:

My landlord has already mentioned her nephew needs the house we are in. I am waiting in fear of an eviction notice. The street is the only other place left.

Rebecca says:

We lost the home we rented for thirteen years to a no-fault eviction. It was the most frightening and humiliating experience of our lives. I know exactly how other families are feeling.

I could go on; we could be here until tomorrow. That is the reality of what people are going through. These families, like so many others, have run out of housing options. Rented accommodation cannot be got for love nor money. Emergency accommodation is maxed out in many areas. People wait years for social housing. Where are they meant to go? We have asked the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and none of them has given a credible answer. Can the Minister answer that question today?

Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Simon Coveney)

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue of housing again, as she does most weeks. The Government is more than aware of the pressures on many families across the country. We made a decision that extending the ban on evictions would make the problem worse, not better, and I believe that was the right decision to make. We are putting billions of euro into ensuring we provide the housing supply that is needed for families who need to find sustainable, secure accommodation, whether that is to purchase affordably or to rent.

Last year, the country built almost 30,000 houses, an increase of 45% on the previous year. Last year, we provided social houses for more than 10,000 people. That was also a significant increase on the year before. This year, we are going to do better again. I am not suggesting that the delivery of social and affordable houses and cost-rental accommodation is happening at a fast enough pace right now but it is accelerating all of the time. That is the answer to the question. We need more supply.

When the Deputy raises these questions week after week, I believe I am entitled to raise her credibility and that of her party in relation to the delivery of all types of housing tenure. In Northern Ireland, Sinn Féin has had the two most recent housing Ministers. Does the House know how many social houses were built and completed in the past year in Northern Ireland? It was fewer than 900. In this jurisdiction, almost 8,000 new social houses were delivered last year. When I became Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government a number of years ago, local authorities in the previous year had built fewer than 100 new social houses. Now, we are seeing 7,500 to 8,000 houses being built and we will deliver significantly more than that this year.

This is a complex and difficult challenge. I know that many households are worried and concerned. There are far too many people homeless in this country. We are responding by increasing supply, which is the answer. The Deputy could help by preventing her party’s councillors across the country from opposing and frustrating developments.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Simon Coveney

She could also be a bit more honest in respect of her party’s performance when it has been in government and held housing ministries. In Northern Ireland, the figure of fewer than 900 social houses for last year is a decrease on the previous year of 36%. The number of building starts last year was just over 1,700, a decrease of 29%. Northern Ireland, where Sinn Féin has some sway, is seeing a reduction of approximately 30% in the delivery of social housing year on year, while we in this jurisdiction are seeing an increase in housing delivery of approximately 45% year on year. The Deputy might take a look at her own party’s performance before she starts lecturing this side of the House on housing delivery.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Do as I say, not as I do.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The critical distinction between here and the North-----

Deputy Simon Coveney

-----is the British Government.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----is that here, public finance is not the issue and there it is. There, the block grant and the Tories are an issue. I do not have the space, a Cheann Comhairle, to elaborate beyond that.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Clearly.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Fine Gael has been in government now for 12 years and the Minister has sat at the Cabinet table, if I am correct, for the entirety of that time. When he was the housing Minister there were 5,000 souls, God help them, homeless. There are now 12,000. We have record house prices and record, extortionate rents. We have a Government which brags of its largesse and the billions coming into the Exchequer and we have an entire generation which cannot put a roof over its head. That is on you.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Minister says the Government has everything sorted. I told him about Eamon, his son and his three children. I told him about Margaret, her daughter and her two children. I told him about Colm. These are real people who have nowhere to go, unless I am mistaken and the Minister actually has an answer to that.

I put it to the Minister again. For families who will face eviction, where do they go?

Deputy Simon Coveney

We have, along with the decisions of recent months, made a decision to increase the number of social housing acquisitions by 1,500 this year and supply an additional 1,000 homes through targeted leasing initiatives this year and next. We have amended the capital advance leasing facility used by approved housing bodies so they can provide more homes faster. There is a long list after that.

The Deputy talks about a generation who cannot put a roof over their heads but yesterday her party introduced a motion to this House to scrap the first-time buyer's grant, which has provided 38,000 young families with the ability to get on the housing ladder. We are a Government which believes in homeownership whereas the Deputy wants to be in a government that will focus solely on one kind of tenure, which is social housing.

Deputy Thomas Gould

What about affordable housing?

Deputy Simon Coveney

We believe in both.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

You believe in neither.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We believe people who want to buy their own homes need a leg up from the State to do that. The Deputy does not believe that. We believe in affordable, cost-rental and social housing. We added over 10,000 properties to the social housing stock last year, unlike Sinn Féin’s performance in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Holly Cairns

The housing disaster is causing devastation among workers and families all over the country. Increasingly it is an enormous problem for businesses too. Every major business group has now pointed to housing being their most serious concern. Chambers Ireland recently warned that the acute shortage of housing was causing companies to take drastic action. It said big businesses are now considering buying up entire housing estates for their workers. IBEC has identified the problem as being not just a chronic lack of supply, but a crisis in the supply of affordable homes. This affordability crisis, according to IBEC, is now a critical barrier to the continued growth and development of business investment and expansion. IBEC is dead right. House prices and rents have never been higher. Workers on average incomes can no longer afford to buy or rent their own homes. Many people who are renting are barely scraping by. Workers are increasingly spending upwards of 40% or even 50% of their take-home pay to keep a roof over their heads. This is unsustainable at any time but in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, it is creating huge hardship.

The reality is that housing is now affordable only for those on the highest incomes. Workers on average incomes cannot afford to buy a home in Dublin for €500,000. They cannot afford annual rents around the country of more than €20,000 either. These sums are astronomical and far out of reach for workers and families. They see no signs of help from the Government. There are no signs of hope either.

The Government claims it is doing something about the affordability crisis but it is just more spin. During ten years of Fine Gael Governments, not a single affordable home was delivered. Last year, this Government managed to deliver only 1,700 affordable homes out of a target of 4,100. That is barely 40%. The Minister recently told the American Chamber of Commerce that housing was the Government’s biggest domestic policy priority and the issue was about supply. He has to recognise we need not just supply but affordable supply.

I do not think even the multinationals believe the Minister's assurances on housing any more. They, like us, have listened to him make the same broken promises for years. Is the Minister aware of any businesses that are considering buying entire housing estates for their workers? Does he agree that the housing affordability crisis is the most pressing concern for businesses, as well as workers and families, and that it is not just about supply but also about the affordability of that supply?

Deputy Simon Coveney

The first thing I want to address is the Deputy’s statement that multinationals do not believe us any more. The relationship between this Government and companies providing foreign direct investment in Ireland has never been stronger. That is why we are seeing the kind of corporation tax revenue streams we see this year and which are predicted for next year and the year after. Ireland is a country in which multinationals have extraordinary confidence. The faith they have in what this Government is doing around enterprise policy has never been stronger. We now have more than 300,000 people employed by US multinationals across the country, many in the county the Deputy and I come from. That is combined with the dynamic enterprise sector in Ireland of Irish companies that are growing and expanding. The combined clients of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland employ well more than 500,000 people.

Housing is an issue but the multinational sector is talking to us and believes what we are doing and saying on housing. We are dramatically increasing supply. That is the answer here. We are also for the first time in decades introducing real affordable housing schemes. For the first time ever in Ireland we are introducing cost-rental schemes at scale. It is only starting. The Deputy is right that we did not meet certain targets last year but these are brand-new types of schemes with new legislation required and delivered to ensure they stand up. The Deputy will see a dramatic acceleration this year of affordable housing schemes. I can name them: in Ardrostig in Bishopstown, in Fingal, in Athlone and more besides. The Deputy cannot judge the delivery of affordable housing on one year.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

You have been in government 12 years.

Deputy Simon Coveney

These projects are getting under way and being accelerated. Through a combination of social housing, affordable housing, affordable rental, cost rental, supported rental accommodation and private housing delivery, we need to get to between 40,000 and 50,000 housing units per year. We know that. We need to be above 10,000 social houses per year and there needs to be a significant mix of affordable housing, but the statement Deputy Cairns makes that nobody can afford to buy a house, when she knows the stats show 38,000 people have bought their first home on the back of a first-time buyer’s grant I introduced as housing Minister, is misrepresenting the facts. We have real challenges on housing but we are providing real solutions which are accelerating year on year.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I did not say no one could afford a home but that only those on the highest incomes can do so. I am not judging the Minister on one year in government but on 12 years of Fine Gael Governments. He was Minister for housing during that time. The criticisms of the Government’s housing delivery are not just coming from the Social Democrats and other Opposition parties; they are coming from business groups. The Minister saying they have confidence in housing policy does not make it true. They are looking at the Government’s broken promises year after year. It did not reach 40% of its affordable housing target. Each and every one of them has said housing is the biggest challenge they face. The disaster we are dealing with is the cumulative result of more than a decade of Fine Gael failure in housing and there are no signs of that situation improving.

Since Fianna Fáil and the Green Party joined Fine Gael in government, it cannot even do the bare minimum, which is spending its budget. More than €1 billion was left unspent during the worst housing disaster in the history of the State. Meanwhile, there are more than 100,000 vacant homes across the country and the Government refused to adopt the Social Democrats’ motion this morning to introduce a punitive tax on those homes and help to bring them back to use. I do not think there is anyone left in the country who has faith in the Government's housing policy. The Minister saying business groups have faith in it does not make it true. How can they?

Deputy Simon Coveney

Businesses are voting with their feet on Ireland and are coming here in bigger numbers than ever before. What is the Deputy talking about?

Deputy Holly Cairns

I am saying they are concerned about housing.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Of course they are concerned about housing and so are we.

Deputy Holly Cairns

You just told me they were not.

Deputy Simon Coveney

No. I am saying they have faith in this Government, and the proof of that is in the numbers. Of course they have a concern around housing. So do we and so does the Deputy. The question is how we respond to that. The Deputy casually forgets when my party came into government and where the country was at that point: under IMF control in terms of finances. We had a completely broken property market, where virtually no houses, except the odd one-off house, were being built around the country. Over a decade and slightly more, we have had to rebuild a housing market, banking system and regulatory model and, so far, we are delivering 30,000 housing units per year.

This is significantly more than was achieved over recent years and we will go beyond it this year. A big portion of this will be affordable housing as is needed, and of course it is-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Twelve years.

Deputy Simon Coveney

-----and social housing. Deputies selectively quote targets that are not being reached, but what about the target of close to 30,000 houses, which is significantly above the target that was set of just over 24,000 for last year, which was the expectation? On the biggest target of all, namely the overall delivery of housing, we are way ahead of schedule and we need to be. Let us look at this in the round and quote all of the statistics rather than hand-picking individual ones.

Deputy Denis Naughten

The Government is expecting to run a surplus of €10 billion this year in the public finances and a further €16.2 billion surplus next year. This money should not be locked away into a long-term fund serving the strategic interests of other countries. Part of this surplus should be invested in infrastructure that unlocks the massive economic potential that we have in our offshore renewable electricity sector. For example, by 2037 it is estimated that there could be 5,400 jobs supported in the Atlantic region through offshore wind development, with a financial dividend of €4.2 billion. This is according to a study funded by Enterprise Ireland. It will happen only with a clear signal from the Government setting out specific targets for the installed capacity of offshore wind post 2030. Targets to 2050 exist but they are not specific. We should set aside part of the €26.2 billion to support critical electricity grid infrastructure off our coast and to aid significant upgrade works at our ports. Currently, Belfast is the only suitable port on the island of Ireland for the development of offshore wind energy. We cannot simultaneously build multiple offshore wind farms from a single port.

The Minister will respond by stating the Government has set up the offshore wind delivery task force to deliver our offshore wind ambitions. From my experience, such cross-departmental task forces work only when the Minister sits at the table. With all due respect to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, who is effectively running three Departments, co-chairing the International Energy Agency and keeping an eye on the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and the shenanigans within the Green Party, he cannot do everything. Is it any wonder he grabs 40 winks here in the Chamber when he can?

The most effective way for Ireland to take a leadership role in the offshore renewable energy sector is to establish an offshore renewable development authority similar to IDA Ireland and something that was adopted unanimously by Dáil Éireann in December 2021. This new authority would drive a fully co-ordinated national action plan and would have responsibility ranging from research and development through to supply chain and commercial deployment of renewable energy, ensuring that Ireland becomes the leading global clean energy exporter. Last week President Biden said Ireland's famous 40 shades of green are being supplemented by green energy, agriculture and jobs. We can make this a reality if we lead directly from the front through the office of the Taoiseach. That is the type of strategic leadership that is needed to deliver on what President Biden outlined here last week.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I agree with an awful lot of what Deputy Naughten has said, although I think a cheap shot at Deputy Ryan is beneath the Deputy. I have huge time for the Deputy, as he knows. The ambition this country has for offshore renewable is in large part due to Deputy Eamon Ryan's relentless pursuit of this agenda for a long time in politics and long before this Government, and his vision in this regard in wanting to make Ireland Europe's capital of offshore renewable generation. We will achieve this. I agree with Deputy Naughten on the challenge to get there around licensing and the need to set up new entities which are on their way to being set up. Boards have been put in place and I hope that soon a chief executive will be in place for MARA. Of course there is a range of other regulatory issues that need to be resolved and these are being worked through.

The offshore wind task force is attended by the Minister, Deputy Ryan, regularly. He has asked me to come along to the next one. My Department will get more involved in this from an enterprise point of view. Offshore wind is not solely a climate change initiative that can decarbonise our economy and society. It is also a huge industrial opportunity in terms of a competitive advantage for Ireland in the future being able to provide limitless amounts of clean renewable energy coming in from off our coast. The assembly of this enormous infrastructure to be built, I hope in Irish ports, and then assembled in time as fixed and floating off our coastline will have a transformational effect on the Irish economy in terms of employment in parts of the country that do not have huge employment at the moment and in terms of new clusters of industrial activity that will want to be connected to it. I am thinking of places such as the Shannon Estuary, Cork Harbour, Rosslare, Killibegs and other ports off the west of Ireland. There is enormous opportunity. The Department will bring recommendations to the Government in the coming weeks on a proposal to develop an enterprise and industrial strategy on offshore wind to complement the work the task force is doing in terms of trying to make it happen.

Deputy Naughten is right that hundreds of millions of euro, if not billions of euro, need to be spent on infrastructure. I do not think the Government will be found wanting on this. The private sector is willing to spend a lot of this money because it is a good investment. We will ensure that if there is market failure, whether in our ports or in other infrastructure, the State will intervene when necessary. I assure the House that this is not only a focus of the Department of the Minister, Deputy Ryan, although he is leading on it, but also a focus of mine and of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which is assisting in terms of the licensing and permits that are necessary.

Deputy Denis Naughten

If it is a good investment for the private sector, which I believe it is, it is a good investment for our money also, rather than investing it in other countries. Last Saturday Germany stopped producing electricity from its nuclear power plants, leaving it highly dependent on fossil fuels, much of which are imported. At the same time, Ireland has great untapped potential off the west coast to meet this demand. We have an indigenous Irish company, Supernode, that wants to develop a transmission network across Europe to export wind energy generated off our Atlantic coast and deliver it directly onto the European grid. Instead of forging ahead, the Government is undermining confidence in the sector by moving to a new plan-led system that requires the drawing up of maps indicating where new offshore wind farms are to be built. This is commendable but we still do not know who will draw up these maps. We have had to wait for a decision from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on this. I do not need to remind the Minister that this is the exact same Department that is yet to deliver on the revised onshore wind energy guidelines that he and I signed off in May 2017, six years ago.

Deputy Simon Coveney

In terms of onshore wind, this country's record is not bad. We are one of the best performing countries in Europe. We provide approximately 30% of our electricity needs from onshore renewable wind farms currently and we will do a lot more. Now we are moving into solar also. I take some of the criticism but I also want to put on the record the delivery we have seen in recent years in terms of onshore wind.

In terms of a plan-led system, we are moving ahead on the remainder of the development of offshore renewable infrastructure on the basis of a plan-led system for very good reason. We have very clear advice from the Attorney General on this. What we do not want is to have permits being challenged in the courts that delay things for years. We need to have certainty that when we permit the building of enormous infrastructure offshore, which is what this is, we will be able to face down legal challenges quickly so we can move on and ensure the permits are actioned. That is the thinking behind a plan-led and State-led system, which in time developers will very much row in behind because they will see the legal sense of it.

Deputy Michael Collins

The O'Donovan family in Clonakilty has been in business for seven generations. Tom and Dena O'Donovan have been in business for 44 years running a viable seventh-generation town-centre hotel with 21 bedrooms and two apartments, employing 70 people in the heart of Clonakilty. In 2007, they took out a business loan with AIB under a 30-year repayment plan. Several months later, Ireland had a bank meltdown and AIB hit the O'Donovans with changes to their repayment plan, reducing it from 30 years to 12 years. There were no negotiations whatsoever. Obviously, the O'Donovans objected, but AIB railroaded ahead with the restructuring and a suggested five-year review. The O'Donovans sold family property to assist with the restructuring and continued to pay the new sum. Astonishingly, the O'Donovans discovered that, unknown to them, their loan had been sold to a vulture fund, Everyday Finance. AIB then closed their bank account in Clonakilty and transferred the account to Fermoy, taking it from ten doors away to 90 km away. In anyone's view, this was to stop the O'Donovans from engaging with the local bank.

As far as I know, by law a bank can only sell on a performing loan to a third party that offers the same facility. AIB did not do this. The O'Donovans tried to engage with Everyday Finance but it made it clear that it is not interested in piecemeal repayments, only large lump sums. At one stage it suggested throwing a few million up on the table. As the O'Donovans are unable to get a figure for what they now owe Everyday Finance, their accountant advised the family to make no further repayments. In all this time, no communication has been forthcoming. The O'Donovans are led to believe that their loan was purchased for approximately €365,000. To try to start engagement with Everyday Finance, the O'Donovans offered €800,000. That was well over double what the loan was bought for. While this was rejected by Everyday Finance and subsequent increased offers have been rejected, no gesture to engage has been afforded to the O'Donovan family other than the rejection of their offers one after another.

In 2022, a receiver was appointed. In all this, the O'Donovans' only crime was that they owed too little and that their property is valued at little more than they owe. Their bad luck was to trust AIB and to enter into a business agreement with it, which AIB broke. Since I raised this question with the Tánaiste 20 days ago, both the O'Donovan family and I have been flooded with similar reports from businesses and individuals who have been treated shockingly and illegally by the banks and vulture funds. We have no proper independent regulatory body for these people to turn to when they are being illegally treated. Banks and vulture funds can railroad all over a person's life without batting an eyelid. I ask the Minister to appoint a proper regulatory body immediately. I also ask him as a Minister in a Government that has a major shareholding in AIB to launch an immediate investigation into how the family have been treated by AIB and Everyday Finance. To hear for himself the pain this hugely popular family in Clonakilty are going through, will he meet with the O'Donovan family to discuss this matter?

Deputy Simon Coveney

First of all, I have huge sympathy for the O’Donovan family and businesspeople who find themselves in the kind of financial pressure they are clearly feeling at the moment. Every bank in Ireland has an obligation, in my view, to behave fairly towards its clients. When we hear slogans like "We're backing brave" and all the rest of them coming from advertisements for banking in Ireland, it is not unreasonable that questions are raised as to whether they are supporting enterprise in an appropriate way. It is not appropriate for me to start getting involved in an individual case on the floor of this House when I do not know the full detail in terms of what happened. When loan books are sold on there is a responsibility, of course, on the regulator, which is the Central Bank of Ireland, to ensure consumers are given the protections that are expected. I simply do not know whether those rules were fully followed in this case. If the Deputy sends me on the details, I can look to inquire further.

I know the Deputy's constituency quite well. I know many of the business families there. It is a little unreasonable for the Deputy to raise this issue on the floor of the Dáil and expect a detailed answer from me without actually knowing the detail. There are legal questions and financial viability questions here. Of course, there are banking regulatory obligations as well. We probably need to have a look at the detail of what happened here to be able to give a more informed answer than I can give off the top of my head on the floor of this House.

Deputy Michael Collins

Similar to the Tánaiste, with whom I raised this question, the Minister's office was notified three weeks ago about this issue directly from the O'Donovan family. That is fair enough; the Minister is busy, and I respect that. I would appreciate if he might have a look at it, however.

Exactly 20 days ago in this Chamber during Leaders' Questions, I asked the Tánaiste the same question I have asked the Minister today. I asked him as Tánaiste and as leader of Fianna Fáil to meet the O'Donovans in Clonakilty. Even though he said he would meet them, no matter how the O'Donovans or I have tried to contact him for this meeting since, he has not replied. He still has time to do so but if he does not, the people of Clonakilty and west Cork will have a dim view of him and his party. Too many livelihoods depend on the O'Donovan family in Clonakilty. They are an honest, straight, hardworking family who have been in business for seven generations and 44 years. The word here is "honest". Their hearts and souls have been broken by what the vulture funds and the banks have done. The Government cannot keep turning its back and saying it does not know the details. The Minister can sit down with them. He can sit down with representatives from AIB and the vulture funds. They are not stopping him from talking to anybody on this issue. I plead with the Minister to do so. The Government is the State's largest shareholder in our banks. Having directors on the AIB board, it cannot turn its back on the O'Donovans' successful business. The Minister can call for an investigation. I ask him to use every mechanism to broker a solution to appease all parties on this issue. Will he meet with that family?

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I have responsibility to try to ensure that businesses are treated fairly and that enterprise has an opportunity to thrive and grow. That includes the relationship, obviously, with the banking sector. I will be happy to get more detail. I do not recall getting the details of this. Maybe that correspondence came into my constituency office. I certainly have not seen it. I was given only a few days' notice that I was doing Leaders' Questions today. I did not know the Deputy would be raising this issue. If it is helpful, I would be happy to meet the family. We can schedule that. I do not want to promise the world, though. Government Ministers do not control banks, and they should not. I assume AIB has sold on this loan and, therefore, has no more control or attachment to it if it is with Everyday Finance. That is probably a legal reality. It is important that we do not make claims we cannot follow up on. I will meet a representative from the O'Donovan family if the Deputy thinks that would be helpful, and I will go through their case in more detail with them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister. That concludes Leaders' Questions.