Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Apr 2023

Vol. 1036 No. 7

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Léiríonn an tseachtain seo go bhfuil polasaí tithíochta an Rialtais ag teipeadh. Mar gheall ar na polasaithe seo, tá na mílte daoine nach féidir teach a cheannach nó a fháil ar chíos réasúnta. Déanann cinneadh an Rialtais i leith deireadh a chur leis an gcosc ar díshealbhú rudaí níos measa agus caithfear an cosc sin a thabhairt ar ais láithreach.

We have seen the most serious housing crisis in the history of the State, but one would never think this is the case, going from the performance of the Government. Let us look at the new low points they have achieved in the last few days alone. They have failed to spend €1 billion in funding for housing, which means that thousands of desperately needed homes were not built. They have missed their affordable housing targets by a country mile - by nearly 60%. Yesterday, we heard from the housing charity, Threshold, that it has been contacted by a record number of people in housing distress. This is just one week on the watch of the Tánaiste's Government. Is it any wonder that so many working people and families cannot put an affordable roof over their heads?

What do we get from the Government? Action to tackle extortionate rents? No. Measures to relieve soaring mortgage interest rates? No. Real action to respond to record homelessness? Not a chance from this Government. What we get is a Government that is digging in on its decision to lift the eviction ban. This cruel decision will see many people lose their homes in the coming weeks and months. The Government has done this while having no plan in place to protect renters. Nearly three weeks on, the Tánaiste still cannot answer the simple question, "Where are people meant to go?".

The Government is circling the wagons, but ordinary people out there are suffering on the ground. A couple in their 50s with two kids are to be evicted from their home of 11 years in June. They have been desperately trying to find a new place, with no luck. Now, they face the prospect of homelessness. Their eldest son is due to sit the junior certificate soon. The mother is not sleeping with all of the stress and she has actually been hospitalised with chest pains. The stress is also affecting their children. That is what is really happening on the ground because of the Government's decision.

What about the families in the Tánaiste's own constituency in his own county of Cork? If he is not aware of what is happening, let me just inform him. A family of four have received their eviction notice. The council said "No" to buying the property. It now says that it is overcrowded, despite the fact it was making housing assistance payments for this family for the last four years. What about another individual in the Tánaiste's own county of Cork, a lady who was evicted on Friday? She was gone on Friday and she is now in emergency accommodation. She got a call from the council, after all her bags were packed and she had moved out, to say that it would buy the house, but it is too late. She was evicted. She is in emergency accommodation. The landlord had been in contact with the council as far back as August of last year about selling the house to the council. He has pulled out now because it has taken too long. She has been evicted and she is in emergency accommodation in the Tánaiste's own county of Cork. That is what happening on the ground because there is no plan in place to deal with individuals like this. Where are they meant to go? Is the Tánaiste satisfied that this lady is in emergency accommodation, or that the family of four are so stressed that they are being hospitalised because they do not know where they are to go in June?

In 2017, the Tánaiste described the housing and homelessness crisis as a national scandal. He was right then, but things have gotten even worse. The Government's lifting of the eviction ban without any plan to protect renters is a national scandal today. How else could we describe a Government decision that put so many working families at risk of eviction, with nowhere to go? I am asking the Tánaiste, for the sake of those families, for the sake of the people who are stressed to the hilt and for the sake of people who are in emergency accommodation today, to make sure nobody else ends up in that situation and to reinstate the eviction ban in order to buy the Government time to get to plans in place to make sure people have a place to go. Will the Tánaiste do that?

The Tánaiste

I dtús báire, ní aontaím leis an Teachta. Is soiléir nach bhfuil aon phlean cuimsitheach ag an Teachta féin ó thaobh na géarchéime thithíochta atá againn sa tír seo. Níl sé soiléir in aon chor. Má éisteann muid leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta agus a chomhghleacaithe - na polasaithe agus na tuairimí atá luaite acu - ní bheidh amhras orainn ach go mbeadh an scéal i bhfad níos measa dá gcuirfí roinnt de na polasaithe sin i bhfeidhm.

The Deputy's inability to acknowledge any progress in relation to housing policy undermines the credibility of his presentation. The bottom line over the last year is that 30,000 new homes were completed in 2022. That is a 45% increase on 2021 figures. Can the Deputy bring himself to say that is very significant progress? It is the highest annual total since the Central Statistics Office, CSO, data series began in 2011. In 2022, we saw the highest level of delivery of new-build social housing since 1975. Last year, more than 10,000 social homes were delivered, including new builds, acquisitions and leasing. Can the Deputy acknowledge that?

We are looking at a consistent trend of more than 10,000 social houses being delivered year on year in respect of the new situation regarding affordable housing, cost rental and first-time buyers. The Deputy's party seems to have a blind spot with first-time buyers. Sinn Féin is opposed to measures that help first-time buyers. These are young people who are trying to get on the housing ladder and buy their first home. Sinn Féin opposed the help-to-buy scheme, which has helped more than 38,000 first-time buyers. Sinn Féin is against it and wants to abolish it. Likewise, under the first home scheme, which has proven very attractive to young people given its equity dimension, last year there were up to 16,000 new first-time buyers. Real inroads have therefore been made in policy areas with regard to social housing, first-time buyers, the help-to-buy scheme, the first home scheme and the cost-rental initiative. There was no cost rental two years ago. Significant numbers of cost-rental properties have now been built and there is much more to come in the future.

In respect of measures for the homeless situation, we have provided measures through the tenant in situ scheme. I cannot deal with every individual case the Deputy may raise. It is easy for him to take one case at a time. However, the policy is there. Councils have been instructed to buy houses where a person is under threat of eviction. A specific unit has been established in the Department to ensure, co-ordinate and direct councils to follow through. There is evidence that substantial numbers of tenant in situ situations are being progressed by councils across the length and breadth of the country. Given that the population has increased very significantly in this country, there is no doubt that we need a higher level of house completion over the next number of years. Sinn Féin's policies on the rental side and in terms of their serial objections to a whole range of developments - approximately 11,000 houses have been objected to by Sinn Féin - would actually reduce the available housing stock both for homeless people and for those seeking to ensure we have a stronger number of houses for rental within the market. Sinn Féin's policies can be summed up as banning, freezing and all of that. It is totally demand-side in the area of rental and there are no real, concrete measures over and above what the Government is doing to boost supply. I do not see it from Sinn Féin.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Will the Tánaiste open his eyes? Will he listen to what is happening out there? Will he listen to his own constituents? Will he listen to what people are saying right across society? The housing crisis was not just a national scandal in 2017 when the Tánaiste called it out; it is a national scandal now.

Things have got worse. House prices have risen beyond all reach of people, rents have exploded and homelessness is at an all-time high. In the middle of that, the wisdom of the Tánaiste, his party and his Government is to end the eviction ban. The consequences of that, whether he wants to ignore them or not, are that people in his constituency, my constituency and every constituency across the State are stressed out, not knowing where they are going.

Things have definitely got worse since the eviction ban was lifted:

Our age group has been completely forgotten about. I never imagined I would be in this position at 50 years of age.

They are the words of a woman in Wicklow, a mother who is at her wits' end because her family is about to be evicted, a mother who cannot sleep because of the stress of it. That is what is happening under the Government's watch. What is its new hare-brained idea? It is to do what it has done in the past and what Fianna Fáil did when it wrecked the economy the last time it was in government, namely, give multimillion euro subsidies to developers instead of building the social, affordable and cost-rental houses that are needed and installing the eviction ban to give itself the breathing space to make sure people have somewhere to go. That is what it should do.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy wanted to lift the eviction ban on Christmas week. That was his proposal. There was nothing of substance in what he was saying. It is all empty sloganeering and sound bites designed to win votes. That is all he is interested in. He is not interested in solutions. He described the crisis. How in the name of God can his party object to 11,000 houses?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We did not.

The Tánaiste

How can it do that?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We did not.

The Tánaiste

How can it do it with a straight face?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Government has been fact-checked on this so many times.

The Tánaiste

The reason it objects, on a serial basis, up and down the length and breadth of the country, is that it wants to win votes at local level.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There are mothers and children without anywhere to go.

The Tánaiste

That is what Sinn Féin is at. Whenever it is that a group will support something, Sinn Féin is there-----

Deputy Sorca Clarke

It is a simple question. Where are people going to go?

The Tánaiste

-----but it is not going to do anything, it seems to me, concrete, of substance or constructive to solve the problem.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There are mothers and children with nowhere to go.

The Tánaiste

I have not heard a single idea-----

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Where are the modular homes you promised?

The Tánaiste

-----from Deputy Doherty this afternoon regarding any additional resolution. All I have heard from him is to abolish the help-to-buy, to abolish the first home scheme, a scheme that is helping first-time buyers.

Deputy Mark Ward

Bring back the eviction ban.

The Tánaiste

What does Deputy Doherty have against first-time buyers? His position on the rental market and the eviction ban-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You have no defence whatsoever.

The Tánaiste

We have a defence-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Mothers and children in the Tánaiste's own county are in emergency accommodation.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Tánaiste

Sinn Féin would make it far worse. That is the point. It would create a further crisis.

Deputy Martin Browne

Where will they go?

The Tánaiste

All your policies in respect of the demand side of the rental market would reduce rental supply and the availability of housing.

Deputy Martin Browne

Where will they go?

Deputy David Cullinane

The Tánaiste is floundering.

An Ceann Comhairle

All this shouting and interrupting is not helping anyone.

Deputy Martin Browne

It is simple. The Tánaiste should answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not helping anyone. Please.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Three weeks on and the Tánaiste cannot answer where the children in his own constituency whom he is evicting are going to go.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy. We are going to hear Deputy Cairns now, please.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Yesterday, we had an extraordinary spectacle at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. One of the most senior and highest paid civil servants in the State engaged in an arrogant two-hour dismissal of an independent expert report commissioned by his line Minister. The Secretary General of the Department of Health, Robert Watt, was clear. He rejects "most" of the findings of the report by Maura Quinn, the former chief executive of the Institute of Directors in Ireland, into his botched handling of the secondment of Dr. Tony Holohan to Trinity College Dublin. This is despite the fact the Minister for Health says he accepts the findings of the report. It is also contrary to the Tánaiste's own assertion that the report cannot be questioned and is conclusive, so perhaps he can enlighten us because it is still not clear on what basis Mr. Watt has rejected the findings of the report. They are not a matter of opinion; they are based on verifiable facts. They are not open to debate.

Those facts are that Mr. Watt engaged in a solo run when Dr. Holohan indicated he was considering stepping down as Chief Medical Officer and moving to academia; committed €20 million of public money to this process without any Government approvals or oversight; failed to provide any rationale for the extent of the €20 million funding; completely bypassed the Health Research Board and its rigorous and transparent protocols surrounding applications for funding in assigning this money; failed to inform the Minister for Health about this process; misrepresented the fact he had not informed the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach of the detail of this proposal; and misrepresented the fact the Tánaiste's own chief of staff had not been given any detail about this process. This is quite the litany. Of course, he now tells us he rejects the findings of the Government-approved report into this entire debacle. We know the Tánaiste's chief of staff, Deirdre Gillane, took a rather dim view of what Mr. Watt was misrepresenting in respect of her role in this shambles. In language that can only be described as damning, she said his assertions about her were "grossly inaccurate and unwarranted" and "wholly without foundation". I can fully understand Ms Gillane's irritation at being dragged into this controversy by Mr. Watt despite having zero involvement in it.

Important questions for the Tánaiste and the Government arise from this mess. It is not enough to say he accepts the report when Mr. Watt, its central character, is loudly intimating that he thinks it is a load of rubbish. I have three questions. Is it appropriate for Mr. Watt to reject the findings of this report? How can Mr. Watt's position be tenable? Does the Tánaiste or the Government intend to take any action to make Mr. Watt accountable?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I also thank Maura Quinn for her report, which is welcome. The Government, in its entirety, accepts without reservation the recommendations of Maura Quinn in respect of this entire issue and also in respect of the broader issue of secondment within the public service and the Civil Service in particular. There are issues around the secondment policy area and we need to be stronger in identifying pathways for those who may, for example, have retired early as a Secretary General or, in this case, as a Chief Medical Officer but who still have a lot of expertise. How does one deploy that expertise across the public service and the Civil Service in a more effective way than merely secondments to a university? By the way, a secondment to a university can be beneficial.

I think people overall, when we stand back from this, were acting in good faith insofar as the idea of developing a stronger capacity in research for public health. I have no issue with that. I think everybody also was conscious of the role Dr. Tony Holohan had played as Chief Medical Officer in respect of the pandemic but, again, that does not in itself justify or in any way support the process here or what transpired. I think Maura Quinn is correct about how, in this instance, it should have happened and particularly in terms of individuals engaging in respect of their own situations with third parties. Ultimately, we need to capture the experience and expertise that people garnered over the two and a half years of Covid.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Will the Tánaiste answer the questions?

The Tánaiste

In respect of the recommendations, they will be implemented by the Government. The Secretary General of the Department of Health is clear they will be implemented by the Government and accepts the decision of the Government to accept all the recommendations of the report.

The report focused very much on doing this in a far more effective and better way and to learn lessons from it. That was the purpose of the report. There is an obligation on everybody now to get down to it and make sure proper procedures are in place into the future. As someone with a lot of experience in research funding, I think we have come a long way in research. Clearly, peer-reviewed, international-based research is the key way to do it. Again, my understanding is that was to be pursued. That is, to me very clearly, the way all research funding has to be deliberated on. It has to be by peer review.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Respectfully, the Tánaiste just talked around all those questions for the entire time of his reply. I asked him how Mr. Watt's position can be tenable and whether the Tánaiste or the Government intends to take any action to make him accountable.

Another aspect of this whole fiasco is deeply troubling. In April of last year, Mr. Watt refused to appear before the finance committee to discuss the matter, so the committee had to seek compellability powers from the Oireachtas to force Mr. Watt to appear before it, which it ultimately received. The clerk to the committee then had to write to Mr. Watt asking if he would appear voluntarily given that those powers were available to the committee, and it was only then that he agreed to appear before it.

If senior civil servants refuse or have to be forced to appear before Oireachtas committees, why should anybody else be willing to appear before a committee? I wonder if the Tánaiste thinks that this kind of disdainful treatment of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, which is there to hold people to account on behalf of the public, sets a good example for other civil servants.

As far as I know, the Civil Service accountability board, which is chaired by the Taoiseach and on which the Tánaiste and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform sit, is supposed to hold Secretaries General and assistant secretaries to account. I am wondering when was the last time this accountability board met. Will Mr. Watt's conduct by reviewed by it?

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Cairns.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I will go back to my previous questions. The Tánaiste did not answer them. Does the Tánaiste think Mr. Watt's position is tenable? What is the Government doing to hold him to account?

The Tánaiste

First of all, I did answer Deputy Cairns's questions in respect of the report.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

No, the Tánaiste did not.

The Tánaiste

In terms of the Secretary General in the Department of Health, when I came into office as Taoiseach, for the first six months we did not have a permanent Secretary General at the Department of Health. To put it mildly, in the context of Covid and other issues, this was-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

This is not relevant.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy has to allow me answer the question. I am coming to the point.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

You are not.

The Tánaiste

My point is that stability has been brought to the Department of Health. The Secretary General has, in terms of the administration of the Department of Health, been effective on a range of fronts. That has to be acknowledged. That was required when we were coming out of Covid and dealing with the consultants' contract and the Sláintecare implementation, etc. That is why I am saying I believe it is important that the Secretary General of the Department of Health continues to work on the bigger issues facing health. We need to move now to improve consistently, reform and implement the Government programme in relation to health-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

We will take that as a "No".

The Tánaiste

-----and also the recommendations in terms of health itself.

In terms of accountability before committees, my understanding is that the Secretary General appeared in front of other committees in respect of this issue. Of course, a Secretary General should be accountable to the relevant Oireachtas committees in respect of issues that come under their administration or their specific Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste and call Deputy Bríd Smith.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

So the Tánaiste finds his behaviour acceptable. Is that what the Tánaiste is saying?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Bríd Smith.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The news that Panda is hiking up its bin charges will be no surprise to customers who have had to pay hefty bin charges in this country since 2003, when the move to bring in bin charges was imposed. That was 20 years ago. Along with 27 activists, I went to prison over protests to stop bin charges. We did this not because we are miserable and do not want to pay our way in society, but because we predicted at the time, quite rightly, that it would be a disaster, that it would lead to the privatisation of waste collection services up and down the country, and that this privatisation would in turn be a disaster for workers, for the environment and for the communities which these services are supposed to serve.

The news that Panda will charge for organic waste is a contradiction of what we were told at the time by the State and the Department of the environment, and what we are being told now, which was that encouraging people to recycle was the reason bin charges were brought in. In that process of recycling, they will now be charged for the organic waste, much of which for decades was dumped at the back of where I live on Kylemore Avenue in a facility that was owned by Thorntons. In the last year or so, they have moved the organic waste out of Ballyfermot under pressure from the local community and on foot of the constant campaigning to the Environmental Protection Agency that we had to do. Now that it has been moved out of there, we no longer have the odours, the inconvenience and the toxic air that spread through Ballyfermot for many decades.

All that aside, we now have a company that was bought for €1.4 billion from Mr. Eamon Waters of Beauparc Utilities by an Australian infrastructure fund. An Australian infrastructure fund is raising bin charges to ordinary consumers by approximately €100 a year for 26 lifts. At the same time, what we are witnessing as a result of the privatisation of the service is large dirty diesel-run trucks running up and down estates not once a week but every day of the week. Those who live in working-class estates will know that this is what has resulted from competition. People are going to Thorntons, to Panda or to City Bin. There is a plethora of waste management companies, and most of them are registered offshore so that their profits are not up for scrutiny. We have a measure of a lot of their profits. By God, their profits are rising astronomically. I will read out some of them later on. Even in this cost-of-living crisis, they are gaining and people are losing out.

Is it not time for the State to call for the renationalisation and remunicipalisation of waste management services throughout the country? It has been a disaster for the environment, for workers and for ordinary people who have to pay the charges. It is time to reverse that and do the right thing for all the reasons I have mentioned.

The Tánaiste

Apart from ideology or whatever, we need to analyse what has happened in terms of waste in this country over the last 20 years. The Deputy has said that she opposed what transpired in 2003. I was reading recently Mark Henry's book In Fact: An Optimist's Guide to Ireland at 100. We have made extraordinary progress in terms of recycling, in terms of reducing our dependency on landfill and in terms of how we manage waste.

Irrespective of whether it is private, public or whatever, the story around waste in Ireland has been one of continuous progress over the past two decades. Of that there is no doubt. I know this because I led campaigns to close landfills. One landfill that I was anxious to close is now an amenity park, Tramore Valley Park in Cork city. It was a horrible dump at one stage. In fact, there were proposals to produce another landfill to replace it. That alternative landfill never got developed because there was no need for it due to our household recycling efforts. That needs to be acknowledged in the first instance before we commit ourselves to wholesale renationalisation of the service.

I accept the point that at times, because of the competition that the Deputy has spoken about, you can have situations in housing estates where there is a proliferation of different companies going through such estates. I acknowledge that point. There is always room, in terms of regulating markets, etc., to deal with that but the fundamental objective has to be to reduce and minimise waste and then ensure it is recycled, etc.

As the Deputy will be aware, in mid-2017, the then Government decided to phase out flat-rate fees for household waste collection. Collection companies are required to charge fees which incentivise households to minimise waste and to segregate their recyclable and organic waste from residual waste. In the interests of encouraging further waste prevention and greater recycling, flat-rate fees for kerbside household waste collection were phased out over that period.

The price monitoring group for household waste collection, which monitored the market up to the end of 2020, found that prices in the market were broadly stable. Data from the group showed that offerings in the market had coalesced around eight common price plans with the most common being a service charge with a weight allowance plus excess charges above that particular allowance. There is no requirement for a collector to charge fees on the organic bin but, of course, it is open to companies to decide how to structure their pricing plans.

We will keep the situation under review. From an overall Government perspective, we have done a lot to try to assist people in respect of the cost of living more generally and we monitor charges across the economy.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

We have reduced quite a substantial number of charges across the economy, particularly public service charges in health and in other areas, such as education, over the past 12 months.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Part of the Tánaiste's statement has made my case for me. If people are incentivised to recycle, they separate their organic waste and their paper, plastic and bottles, they pay for their black-bin waste, and they do not pay for the recycling. Then they are incentivised. That incentive is now being taken from them by this increase announced by Panda followed by another increase announced by City Bin. Given the competitive nature of this market, which was designed to be competitive by a previous Fianna Fáil-led Government, no doubt this market will increase the prices for everybody to recycle and thereby remove the incentive. This is the craziness of companies which are making vast profits, most of which will now fund infrastructure in Australia. This is the biggest waste management company in the country.

Panda is now owned by an Australian infrastructure company and its profits will help Australia to build infrastructure. It does nothing for us here except put more hefty bin charges on people and disincentivise them from recycling. I agree with the Tánaiste about landfill. We are burning our waste out in Poolbeg. We have an incinerator that we did not have before and we are still exporting a huge volume of waste, much of it toxic waste.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. Her time is up.

Deputy Bríd Smith

If the privatisation of waste has not led to that, what has? We need to take it back into public ownership, control it, and stop it being the mode of profit for these greedy companies. Their profits are going through the roof.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. She is way over time.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Thorntons Recycling made €5.7 million in pre-tax profits last year. As I said earlier, most of the profits are offshore. Panda's profits have been enormous but its prices are going up. The Tánaiste has not answered that.

The Tánaiste

I would make a general point in response. Many Irish companies provide services all over the world. Deputy Boyd Barrett can nod all he likes but we do. Our economy depends-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The profits from a public service go to build infrastructure in Australia. It is madness.

The Tánaiste

Irish companies provide services all over the world, such as wastewater treatment, high technology solutions, and you name it. That is what Ireland does today. The Deputies should talk to Enterprise Ireland officials and a number of its client companies that export their services all over the world, including to Australia and Canada. That creates jobs in Ireland. The Deputies' model of the economy would damage our model, which produces full employment.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I do not know what the Tánaiste is talking about. That is not the argument here.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy raised the argument about a company being problematic because it is international.

Deputy Bríd Smith

It is just part of my argument. What is the Tánaiste going to do about this?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Smith, please.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Government is disincentivising people by allowing this to happen.

The Tánaiste

It is a consistent thread which I am not going to take anymore; it needs to be challenged. This country has full employment. The enterprise model we have developed over the past 30 years has worked, broadly speaking.

Deputy Bríd Smith

That is because we send our money to Australian infrastructure companies. That is brilliant.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Smith has been against the enterprise model all the time. I am entitled to challenge her fundamental premise, which Deputy Boyd Barrett shares.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Of course he does.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy does not have a monopoly on wisdom of how economies get managed. Nobody does, but I am sure of one thing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste's time is up.

The Tánaiste

We have a small, open economy in this country and if we are going to take a protectionist view that no foreign company can provide any service in this country, that would destroy the Irish economic model, because we are basically saying that no other country in the world should tolerate Irish companies providing good and high quality services elsewhere.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Is it wise to disincentivise people?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Smith.

The Tánaiste

I did not say that at all.

Deputy Joan Collins

I hope the Tánaiste will be a bit more progressive in answering me. The Danish Government decided last week to leave the Energy Charter Treaty. It joined a growing list of European countries that have left the treaty. Eight European countries have declared intentions to leave and 15 EU member states, at least 60% of the EU population, are needed for the EU to withdraw from the treaty. Final talks are ongoing at the moment. The treaty has been described as a threat to climate action by civil society groups and UN experts. It violates the goals of the Paris climate agreement by offering legal protection to climate-wrecking fossil fuel companies. This treaty allows fossil fuel companies to sue governments due to reduced profits because of environmental reforms of climate action. The most notorious case is the suing of the Netherlands for €2 billion by German giants RWE and Juniper for the Netherlands' decision to phase out coal.

We are in the middle of a climate catastrophe and our Government, which contains a so-called Green Party, cannot support a decision to leave a treaty that allows giant corporations, which are already making billions of euro in extra profit due to price-gouging and greed, to sue governments for essential moves such as phasing out fossil fuels like coal. Coal is one of the fossil fuels most deadly to the planet and we are allowing corporations with billions of euro in profits to sue countries over its phasing out. It is a joke. In 2001, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, said we are protecting €2.15 trillion in profits for these energy companies. We have seen this time and again with treaties such as the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. The Government seems wedded to the idea that giant companies with multibillion euro profit lines that grow year by year should have the right to sue our Government for implementing reforms to protect our citizens and this planet from the harms of climate change and the profit and greed of neoliberal capitalism.

The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ryan, stated that Ireland will support an EU decision to leave the treaty and our geography and educated workforce offers us one of the greatest opportunities to lead on new green technologies and policies. We can be sued for developing those policies because it is eating into the profits of those companies. More than that, year by year, one IPCC report after another states that the world is hurtling towards a disaster of unmanageable proportions. Scientists and experts are talking about societal and economic collapse on a scale not seen in modern times. People all over the world are dying because of the climate catastrophe. This treaty is in direct opposition to taking action on this disaster. Experts call this treaty utter failure and ecocide. Will this Government commit to leaving the treaty or will it continue to support a treaty that values the profits of massive corporations over the lives of every person who lives on this planet?

The Tánaiste

On our position in respect of climate, there is no question that in the past two and a half years, the actions taken by the Government have been a watershed in Ireland's response to the climate crisis.

Deputy Joan Collins

We are not meeting our targets.

The Tánaiste

Without question, our response will have an impact in the years to come. One of the challenges we have is that our population is growing. We have gone from less than 3.5 million people in the early 1990s to 5.2 million today and that is a factor across public services, housing, climate and economic growth. Maintaining and supporting that population creates its own challenges for us with regard to climate change. I have been at the European Council and the EU has been clear about the targets for 2030 and 2050 and, more critically, to reduce dependency on fossil fuels. The war in Ukraine has accelerated the move to reduce dependency on coal for energy and so on by the end of the decade. In the short term, because of the crisis brought about by the war in Ukraine, some countries are unfortunately moving back to coal and so forth. From our perspective, we need to double down on offshore wind energy, as well as additional onshore wind energy, to eliminate our dependency on fossil fuels over time.

Regarding a specific treaty, we have signed up for Fit for 55 within the EU. We as a country have set extremely challenging targets in respect of climate. The Deputy referred to the "so-called Green Party". I think the Green Party has made a significant contribution to this agenda. The programme for Government is clear both about the climate issue and the biodiversity crisis. We want to move from the fossil fuel area. The challenge will be how fast we can do it as the population grows and how we can, through planning systems and so on, get both onshore and offshore wind proposals through. We have choices to make as a society. We do not actually have the luxury to oppose all forms of energy development. People in communities have rights and entitlements. Given the nature of the crisis, I support the view of the President of the European Commission that we need an overriding public interest clause for offshore wind, for example, and the crisis in climate should override other considerations once we have fully considered people's concerns. We should then be in a position to accelerate and pass vital infrastructure that will be required through the planning process.

Deputy Joan Collins

I am no more enlightened than when I stood up three or four minutes ago. Germany, preceded by France, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain and Luxembourg, have recently announced their intention to withdraw from the treaty, citing the charter's incompatibility with the EU climate goals. Luxembourg's energy minister, Claude Turmes, said in comments poster on Twitter, "This is what the government council has decided today, based on my proposition." He continued, "Even if the modernisation of the Energy Charter Treaty leads to some progress, the treaty is still not compatible with the goals of the Paris Climate Agreement, as it continues to protect investments in fossil and nuclear energies." I ask the Government to say that it will withdraw from this Energy Charter Treaty. It is protecting the profits of fossil fuel companies that are wrecking our climate. We need 15 countries in the EU to announce they will pull out of it and to pull out of it before the EU can pull out of it. In 2021, the Commission said the EU should pull out of it.

We should be very strong in supporting our fellow European countries, such as Germany, France, the Netherlands and Spain, in pulling out of the charter.

The Tánaiste

Our general approach has been to work in concert with the European Union collectively. That will be our position in respect of the Energy Charter Treaty. In other words-----

Deputy Joan Collins

But they do not know what is going to happen.

The Tánaiste

Moves are afoot to modernise and reform the treaty to make it compatible with the Paris Agreement and EU policies. Failing that, of course, we reserve the option to withdraw in respect of any incompatibility with the treaty and our position. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications is on the record as saying he is working with others on that modernisation and reform agenda-----

Deputy Joan Collins

In the meantime, we can be sued by these-----

The Tánaiste

-----and that we reserve the option to withdraw, if necessary. The Minister and the Government have real concerns regarding the treaty and aspects of its compatibility with the EU's climate change agenda, which is very far-seeing.

Deputy Joan Collins

Our intention should be stronger.

The Tánaiste

The point I endeavoured to make earlier was that we sometimes get fixated on specific Acts and so on. There is no doubt the direction of travel by the European Commission and most members of the EU - not all but the vast majority of them - is towards net zero.

Deputy Joan Collins

The Energy Charter Treaty is incompatible with the Paris Agreement.