Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 May 2023

Vol. 1038 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Hospital Services

Deputy Robert Troy

This is an important and timely debate on the need for the HSE to approve the staffing submission by the Regional Hospital Mullingar for the new MRI unit. I wish to take this opportunity to acknowledge the assistance of the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, in the increased funding for the new outpatient department, on which work commenced several weeks ago. More than six years ago, a commitment was given by the HSE to the Friends of Regional Hospital Mullingar that if it fundraised and provided for the MRI machine, the HSE would construct the building to house the machine and would staff the operation. I compliment the Friends of Regional Hospital Mullingar, both the existing committee and previous committees, on the work it has done in fundraising over the years and the support it has given the hospital. John McGrath and Mandy Reilly are very strong in their support and the need for this staffing. The Minister met them when he was in Mullingar before Christmas. To date, it has raised €950,000, with the machine costing €1.2 million. With a VAT rebate of €283,000, sufficient funding is in place, the machine has been ordered and it is due to be fitted on the 21 June and operational from July.

The HSE has honoured part of its commitment, as the building is almost complete. The signs are positive, which I must acknowledge, in relation to staffing as approval has been given for a specialist post of a radiographer, which was advertised today. However, the full staffing submission made last year needs approval without delay. We have been fortunate to have a very efficient and effective management team in the hospital in Mullingar under Kay Slevin. They made a very streamlined staffing submission ensuring the most efficient use of resources. The annual costs will be €1.5 million, which is not a huge amount of money when taken in the context that last year alone the hospital spent €500,000 just on taxis and travel costs to bring patients from the hospital to other locations to have their MRIs completed. Some 902 MRI scans were done last year. That also does not take into account lost bed days. The Minister of State will know from his professional experience that for every patient who must travel outside of the hospital, one to two bed days are lost. This new MRI scanner will cater for children and will greatly assist in reducing outpatient lists.

Even if the Minister of State were to tell me this evening that the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, who is aware of this issue, said that the HSE has given sanction for this staffing submission, it would still take three to six months to fill the posts, depending on availability. There cannot be a situation in which a machine has been commissioned and is in place and a building has been completed but without staff in place to bring the machine into operation. I ask the Minister of State to convey to the Minister the urgency of having the HSE sanction this submission, which it has had for months, and ensure the capital investment made will not be underutilised.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I thank Deputy Troy on behalf of Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, for this opportunity to update the House on this important matter. The Regional Hospital Mullingar is an important level 3 hospital that provides a wide range of health services for people in counties Westmeath and Longford and specialised services for a broader midlands population of 291,000. As Deputy Troy referenced, when I trained as a doctor, I spent time with the RCSI in Mullingar hospital and noted the tremendous public service and work of the staff in the hospital and the broader community in trying to advance this proposal. In support of its development, this Government has invested significantly in the hospital, with a current budget allocation of €101.9 million, an increase of 19% on 2019. I am pleased to note, as part of this ongoing investment, a new-build extension to the radiology department is at an advanced stage. The extension to the radiology department at Mullingar Regional Hospital is included in the capital programme for 2023 and funding has been allocated to progress the project.

This build will accommodate the new MRI and has an expected completion date in quarter 3 2023. The cost of the MRI project is €8.3 million, which is funded by the HSE. As Deputy Troy said, it is important to also acknowledge the role the Friends of Regional Hospital Mullingar played in supporting the development of this important service. Through its hard work and dedication to the hospital, this group successfully funded the cost of the MRI scanner, which is a part of the MRI project, through its fundraising campaign. It is a great initiative and will, no doubt, continue to benefit the patients of Regional Hospital Mullingar for many years to come.

I understand the MRI staffing proposal to support this service at Regional Hospital Mullingar has been submitted to the HSE for consideration. The HSE has approved the recruitment of a clinical specialist radiographer post, which will support the preparation for operationalising and managing the MRI service in Regional Hospital Mullingar. Recruitment for this post is actively being progressed. Regional Hospital Mullingar has approximately 1,100 whole-time equivalent staff, as of March 2023, which represents an increase of 17% since December 2019. Despite the challenges in recruiting healthcare staff, I am advised that Regional Hospital Mullingar has continued to attract highly-talented professionals to the hospital across all disciplines.

Workforce planning in healthcare is a key priority for me and this Government. We have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of healthcare staff employed in our public health service during the life of this Government, with 20,020 staff recruited by the HSE since December 2019, including an increase of 12,917 in acute care. In 2023, we allocated €23.4 billion to our health and social care services - an unprecedented investment. This investment in our hospitals enables the delivery of high-quality, accessible and safe care, ensuring that our hospitals, including Regional Hospital Mullingar, continue to develop and serve the growing and diverse needs of its catchment area.

I take Deputy Troy's point; he and the community want an expeditious decision by the HSE so the capital works are brought to fruition. People want a functioning MRI, which was the focus of his Topical Issue. I will reflect that and the strong wish of the community to see that and that in addition to the specialist radiographer, there is active recruitment for the full staffing complement so the many hundreds who went elsewhere last year can receive a local service and that the investment is brought to fruition in the context of the staffing complement. I will fully reflect the urgency of what Deputy Troy outlined.

Deputy Robert Troy

It is important the people who need it can get a local service but apart from that, it is value for money. We are spending more than €500,000 a year on taxis and transport costs to bring them to other hospitals that are already under pressure. This is very much needed and I have acknowledged that the Government invested significantly in Regional Hospital Mullingar in the MRI build and the outpatient department, in which the Minister took a personal interest. We are fortunate, which the Minister of State acknowledged, to have high-calibre, dedicated staff in the hospital but we need more of them. The HSE knew this build was going to be completed in quarter 3 of this year; it sanctioned it last year. It should have pre-empted and realised that the positions and staffing submission needed to be approved in order for the recruitment process to commence and allow full use to be made of this much-needed service without delay. We need approval without delay because we do not want the major capital investment that has been made to be underutilised.

I wish to make a side point in relation to this issue. Due to works for the MRI scanner and outpatient department, a significant amount of car parking spaces have been lost. This is having a negative effect on staff in the hospital and patients coming in for treatment.

Will the Minister of State to convey to the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, the need for a capital allocation to enable the hospital management to provide 85 new car parking spaces to ensure staff have access to such car parking? They need it because they work long and antisocial hours and must be able to park their cars close to the hospital-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is pushing the boat out now I think.

Deputy Robert Troy

-----and there is also such a need for parking for the patients who come to get their treatment in the hospital.

Deputy Jack Chambers

I assure the Deputy that the Ireland East Hospital Group and the HSE are committed to progressing the new MRI unit in the Midland Regional Hospital, Mullingar for the people of counties Westmeath and Longford and the broader midlands. I am pleased the building works to facilitate the MRI equipment are progressing in the context of the planned completion date. Consideration is being given to the funding allocation for the MRI staffing required. In the interim, as I said, the recruitment of the clinical specialist radiographer will be actively progressed.

I reiterate the Government's commitment to healthcare reform. A significant amount has been delivered and this is having an impact on patients' lives. The Deputy is correct, however. There is a value for money argument here, which he has outlined, and I share his view in this regard. I refer as well to the opportunity for further diagnostics in respect of people who may not have been referred for an MRI because there is no opportunity to get one within the region presently. This is an aspect we are trying to strengthen in the context of overall diagnostics in healthcare. I appreciate the point that to give fruition to the great work done locally and within the hospital community around the capital allocation, it is important the staffing complement is increased. I will certainly communicate the urgency and prioritisation the Deputy has outlined from the local community to the Minister. I will also convey the Deputy's feedback concerning the staff feedback on parking and I will get the Minister to engage directly with the Deputy on this topic.

Disability Services

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this Topical Issue matter. I also thank the Minister of State for taking this Topical Issue matter and for letting me know she was not available to take it last week when it was selected and that we could defer it to this evening. This deferral was because the Minister of State was not available to take this matter last week and, unfortunately, no one else would be authoritative on the issue. This creates its own issues at this stage as well. It is a potential problem.

The Minister of State's work with residents and the families of residents has been exceptional. The families have faith in her and believe she wants to do what is right for their loved ones. It is clear now, however, if it was not so before, that the HSE does not have the interests of the families at heart. It has the interests of the organisation at heart and, like all bodies, saving the organisation and protecting itself are what are important. Families and residents are secondary to this. Throughout all this time, the HSE has only been concerned with containing the Brandon issue. The organisation has closed ranks at every opportunity, and this went right up to headquarters within the HSE as well. There is no way this is only a County Donegal issue. I believe the HSE at all levels nationally has questions to answer on this issue as well. Brandon and other residents have been let down by the HSE and the Department of Health.

I know the Minister of State wants to set up an independent scoping exercise of safeguarding and disability services in County Donegal. I also know the Department of Health and the HSE are opposed to this. What is the view of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in this context? Will it support this exercise and, if so, should it have been set up and working by now? I raise these issues now because of what has been happening to families and residents in recent weeks in Ard Greine Court residential service. The HSE in County Donegal is now closing this facility and moving the residents to decongregated settings around the county. It is doing this without consultation with the families or the residents themselves. It is hard to believe that after all that has happened, the HSE will still behave in this way.

Some residents are quite elderly and Ard Greine is their home, but the HSE does not recognise this. Once again, it decides and everybody else has to accept its decisions. The brother of one resident said that, after Brandon, it was stated that everything would be person-centred. Nothing has changed, however, and it is the same old, same old of the HSE covering its tracks and talking down to the families. Apparently, the HSE has said each resident will be at the centre of the decision-making process for his or her move, but unfortunately no one involved with Brandon will believe this. This is the crux of the situation. So many years down the road from what was an horrific case, and I think it was recognised by everybody how bad it was, the HSE has attempted to cover up, to try to shut this down, to move on and say there is nothing to see in this regard. This is what has been going on for so long.

I know the Minister of State is fully up to speed regarding this matter, but I am concerned now with whether the Government is up to speed on this issue. I know the Minister of State's interest lies in addressing this issue and that she wants to make it work and happen, but I wonder if the Government is also committed in this regard. This is a real problem. It will only be by having full Government commitment that we will be able to force the HSE to deal with this issue. I say this because the HSE as an organisation will not deal with it. This is sad and shows what was done to residents will continue. There is a real risk it could happen again, which is even worse. It is scarier that this potential could be there. Basically, no one involved with the Brandon case believes the HSE is doing things for the right reasons. Does the Minister of State and the Government believe the HSE is doing things for the right reasons?

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue for discussion.

As the Deputy will be aware, in 2018 the HSE commissioned the National Independent Review Panel, NIRP, to review the governance arrangements of a residential service for adults with a disability in County Donegal. The NIRP’s executive summary of the Brandon report was published in December 2021, which was the Thursday before Christmas. This followed a look-back review completed in 2018 and a safety assurance report undertaken in 2020. As part of the HSE response, the chief operations officer established a strategic working group, SWG, in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 1. The objective of the SWG is to develop a new vision for disability services in line with national policy and based on a social and human rights model of service provision for people. This is in keeping with the transforming lives programme, which is focused on enabling people with disabilities to achieve their full potential. The CHO 1 SWG meets regularly to progress actions and oversee progress. I am advised the CHO 1 SWG has progressed the objectives of the group through an identified set of actions and the majority of these actions are now either completed or in progress. The work under way is aimed at ensuring there is a high-quality, robust and accountable governance structure in place, that the voices of service users and their families are heard and involved in the service improvement programme, and an improved and enhanced service model is delivered with positive outcomes for residents.

Moving on, Ard Greine Court residential service, which was the key focus of the initial service improvement workstream under the SWG, has undergone significant changes in the past year, with improvements to the current service delivered, safeguarding and compliance with national standards. What is not in my script, which the Deputy is reading, is that it is important to say I have met with family members in the past six weeks. I also met with a whistleblower in the past six weeks. It is unfortunate to see that the lack of communication evident in 2018 is still there in 2023. As I previously indicated, I am currently developing a safeguarding assurance exercise to be undertaken by an independent expert, which would build on the improvements in safeguarding already under way in CHO 1.

My hope is to ensure the voices of residents and their families, as well as those working in the area, contribute to the ongoing effort to continually strengthen safeguarding policy and practice. The aim, which is the question the Deputy has asked me about the support in this context, would be to have this process up and running by the end of June. My circulated script refers to the end of the summer. I will be three months in this Department by then, having moved in on 1 March 2023. I would hope to have this in place by the end of June. That is three months, and I have always said it would be three months in the context of moving from one Department to another. I have the support of my officials, and my assistant secretary, Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, has been more than helpful in ensuring I am able to work at pace to ensure I can put an independent person, along with that expert review panel, in place.

The residential disability services are subject to registration and inspection by HIQA in accordance with the provisions of the Health Act 2007. The purpose of the regulation is to safeguard and support the delivery of person-centred care to vulnerable people of any age receiving residential care services and to ensure their health, well-being and quality of life are promoted and protected. HIQA published 33 inspection reports from January to March 2023 on disability services designated centres in the community healthcare system in counties Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan and Sligo. The findings of HIQA’s regulatory programme and the mechanisms put in place by the HSE may inform wider safeguarding practice, governance and policy, as appropriate. The ultimate aim is to ensure services are safe for clients, those working in the services are appropriately supported, the families are completely reassured their loved ones are getting the best possible care and attention, and all the safeguarding regulations are being adhered to.

I will revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the Minister of State for what she added to the reply. The written reply leaves a lot to be desired and was obviously something that was written by departmental officials or the HSE. It bears very little relationship to reality. It states the objective of the strategic working group is to develop a new vision for disability services in line with national policy based on a social and human rights model of service provision for people. That sounds great but it is not happening. That is the sad part of it.

The reply also states that CHO 1 SWG meets on a regular basis to progress actions and oversee progress. It is not making much progress. Just consider how the families were treated just two weeks ago regarding the decongregation that is happening in Ard Greine Court. There is something wrong in the HSE if this is what it is saying is a high level and what it wants to give to us in the House. Reading this reply, anyone would think everything was rosy in the garden and it would make me wonder why I am raising this issue at all.

We know, unfortunately, what is happening on the ground. It is not being recognised. I thank the Minister of State for her interventions. I hope the review will be set up in June because that needs to happen very quickly. The families have no respect for the HSE and what it is doing, which is sad. After what has happened with Brandon, the system has not been rebuilt and that is the real problem. The review group the Minister of State is putting in place needs to work very well for Donegal and the whole country. There are major problems right up to the top of the HSE. Those have to be addressed.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It is incumbent on me to ensure the independent expert review group that is put in place with an independent expert is not seen through a medical but rather a social care lens. The person, and his or her environment and family, should be seen in the round, and the person should be put at the centre. As we read in the Brandon report, it should not be about episodes and every outburst being viewed through a medical lens as an episode requiring a medical model, as opposed to understanding the underlying conditions an individual has.

In terms of the independent expert group, I have always said it should be about reassurance that the HSE works, HIQA does its job and people who are working in services know the proper protocols, who to reach out to if something is inappropriate and how to link in with Tusla or An Garda Síochána and go up the chain within the HSE to be able to highlight possible red flags without fearing to speak out or that they will face repercussions. That is the reassurance I want.

The Deputy is correct. Families need to be reassured that their loved ones are in a safe environment. Safeguarding legislation currently sits with the Department of Health, as I have said. It was transferred from one Department to another. Safeguarding is a priority. If it does not go at the pace that I think is required to meet the needs of those in residential, respite and day services in the disability sector, I have the support of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, to progress our own safeguarding legislation.

School Transport

An Ceann Comhairle

We move to the third Topical Issue matter, which was tabled by the very patient Deputy David Stanton, who wishes to discuss with the Minister for Education the need to provide a second level school transport service for next September for at least 50 children travelling from Cobh to Carrigtwohill, County Cork.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his kind remarks and selecting this topic and I thank the Minister for being here to discuss it with me. The Minister is very familiar with the area I am talking about in Cobh and Carrigtwohill. There are two fine secondary schools in Cobh but there are six primary schools, one of which has 120 students in sixth class alone. Over the years, there have been issues with capacity in Cobh, which is something the Minister might ask her officials to look at again with respect to the need to expand schools or even build a new school in time.

Over the years, a number of students went to Carrigtwohill, which is where the next nearest school is located. As the Minister said earlier, if schools are full, students are allowed to use the free transport scheme to travel to the next nearest school. That is something I would like to tease out. Some students are in third or transition year or are going into the leaving certificate years. Until now, they managed with the transport that was available. A lot of parents are able to drive. The Minister of State, Senator Pippa Hackett, is present. We have more cars on the road than we should have.

The cost of transport is horrendous. One parent told me it costs her €500 per annum for her child to go to school. The Minister said earlier it costs €75 per annum for the school bus scheme, which is a big saving for families. Parents have applied for the scheme but are awaiting a response. We can imagine the stress that girls, in particular, face travelling a distance without being guaranteed a lift home in the evening. Parents are trying to get off work or are arranging spins with other parents. The bus service that is available is expensive and there is a 45-minute wait for girls in the winter time. It is a bit of a mess.

Parents want a simple solution. I understand it is within the gift of the Minister or Department to sanction a bus service from Cobh to Carrigtwohill which is, I am told, 15 minutes or 10 km. That would solve the problem. There are enough students to justify the service. Parents have contacted me and other colleagues about this. They are upset, worried and distraught. They need support from the Department.

It is not realistic to ask a student to leave one school and move to another during the leaving certificate cycle. The subjects may not align and, in this case, they do not. One school teaches German but another in Cobh does not. It is a problem that needs a resolution. This has been an issue for quite a number of years and is causing a lot of stress. The solution is fairly straightforward. The number of students to justify the service is there. I quoted a figure of 50 in my Topical Issue question but the number may be higher because a number of students travel by car, which puts parents under extra stress. Some parents do not drive and are begging for spins and lifts from other parents, which is not on.

There is no regular public transport to Carrigtwohill from Cobh , which is difficult, even though it is only 15 minutes away. I ask the Minister to examine this issue. I hope in her response she will tell me that. These children will be going to the second nearest school. Some children applied to schools in Cobh three years ago and were told there was no space. There were 120 pupils on a waiting list at one stage. Students went to a school in Carrigtwohill and I do not think it would be realistic to ask them to change back to Cobh. Even if they could, they probably would not be able to do so. The other place they can go to is Passage West which is on the other side of the harbour. One parent told me that requires six different journeys, comprising ferries, trains, buses and God knows what else. Such a journey is not feasible. In the long term, the Minister needs to examine overall capacity in Cobh but in the short term, for next September, she needs to provide a bus service for the students.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. Before I address the specific issues raised, it is important to provide an outline of the extent of the school transport scheme. It is a significant operation managed by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department of Education. In the current school year, over 149,000 young people, including 18,000 children with special educational needs, are transported on a daily basis to primary and post-primary schools. There has been a significant increase in the number of those availing of the system, including a 21% increase in those deemed eligible and a 38% increase in those in receipt of concessionary tickets. In addition, school transport scheme services are being provided in the current school year for over 5,200 children and young people from Ukraine. The total cost of the scheme in 2022 was €338.9 million.

The school transport scheme is an important service for families and children and the Deputy has outlined that very well. The purpose of the Department's school transport scheme is, having regard to available resources, to support the transport to and from school of young people who reside remote from their nearest school. A review of the school transport scheme is under way. It is being conducted with a view to examining the current scheme, its broader effectiveness and sustainability and ensuring it serves students and their families adequately. Significant consultation is taking place as a consequence of the review.

Also as a consequence of the review, a public survey was carried out in respect of parents, guardians and students who use the service and those who do not. A broad array of stakeholders, including schools, special education interest groups, industry representatives and other Departments, were consulted as part of the review. Phase 1 of the review has been completed. On foot of the results, we introduced a scheme whereby post-primary students who were attending their nearest or next nearest school would be eligible. Phase 2 has been completed. Phase 3 will be completed imminently.

On the topic raised by the Deputy, Bus Éireann will review applications and plan routes during the summer months for the upcoming school year. However, it is important to note that there are two specific dates with regard to facilitating Bus Éireann to do its work. First, the application date for those who were interested in applying to the school transport system was 28 April. Second, the closing date for payment or providing medical details for tickets for the 2023-24 school year is Friday, 9 June. In fairness to Bus Éireann, it is only after this date that appropriate and complete knowledge will be available on the applications, having not just been received, but paid for. At that point, services will be planned for the upcoming school year.

Pending completion of the review, there will be no removal or downsizing of buses or routes for the 2023-24 school year. However, if families have applied to attend their nearest school, with regard to ethos and language, and have been advised by the school authorities that it is full, the Department of Education will consider if students can be deemed eligible for transport to their next-nearest school. These families can submit details to the school transport section in the Department of Education, where their request can be assessed.

The Deputy has referenced that, in his view, more than 50 young people would be making an application and asked what the provision might be by Bus Éireann. To be fair, the date for receipt of applications has passed. The Deputy has acknowledged there has been a reduction in terms of the moneys required, in that it costs €75 at post-primary level and €50 at primary level. These moneys are to be paid or details with regard to medical card are to be made available only by Friday, 9 June. A more complete judgment of the requirement will be made at that point.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister for her response. I ask her to ask the Department to sanction a service from Cobh to Carrigtohill for the next school year in order to facilitate the young people involved. The parents have already done what the Minister has suggested; they have applied, but they have been told there is no bus service. We have many girls who are now discommoded. The cost is horrendous. I contend that they cannot realistically apply to the nearest school now, because some of them are in third, fourth or fifth year. Changing schools would mean a complete disruption of classes, subject choice, career choice and everything else. The actual distance involved is very short. The Minister did not mention Cobh or Carrigtohill at all. I received a similar response to a parliamentary question earlier. I suggest that the Minister go back to the Department and tell it to sanction this bus service from Carrigtohill to Midleton for the young people involved. It would make a massive difference to the families. There is no bus service there at present, or any way of getting from one place to another and Cobh does not have the capacity either. Perhaps the Minister will come back to me offline and tell me what can be done here. Some of these parents do not drive. I am told it that it is costing people up to €500 per annum in some instances. That is horrendous. This is an issue that needs the Minister's personal intervention. I sat in that chair for a while and I know what it means. The Minister has to call in the officials and say that there is a problem and that we want a solution. She knows the area in question well. She wants to do right by these girls because she taught in that school and knows exactly what I am talking about. We cannot allow this to continue. There is stress and strain on girls and a danger to them because they are hanging around in the evening waiting for a bus that might not come.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to update him on school transport. I reiterate that all eligible pupils who have applied on time this year have been facilitated for the 2023-24 school year. In addition, there has been a 40% increase in the number of concessionary tickets issued to the relevant pupils for the current school year in comparison with the number issued for the 2021-22 school year. There are criteria, that is, the student is living 4.8 km from his or her nearest or next nearest school, but there is a review under way. We must allow the review to be completed. It would not be fair to make a unilateral decision on one specific school. It is important that we allow the review to run its course. We have made concessions, as an interim measure, while the review is up and running, with regard to eligibility for the student to attend his or her second nearest school. If it is a case that the student's first or second school is full and he or she can produce confirmation of such from the school, the student will be eligible for transport to the third-nearest school. However, we must allow the review to be completed. Applications will be will adjudicated on or after 9 June.

An Ceann Comhairle

When will the review be completed?

Deputy Norma Foley

Phases 1 and 2 have been completed. It is expected that phase 3, which is the final phase, will be completed imminently. However, that will involve the sharing of information. It will have to go to the Government to be signed off and there will have to be discussion and negotiation with a variety of Departments, most notably, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, with regard to what will be involved.

Rural Schemes

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I have been raising the issue of the impact of domestic turf-cutting on agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, eligibility and scoring for farmers with commonage land for weeks. I have spoken to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, about it, as well as writing to him. The Minister of State will know there has been significant uptake of ACRES among farmers in County Mayo and along the western seaboard and the amount of money received by farmers will largely be determined by the scoring of their fields for biodiversity. Many farmers in the west will be relying on commonage and mountain lands to generate these scores. Parcels are marked out of ten, with ten being the highest score. The issue is the scoring of mountain land, where active turf-cutting means all farmers on that commonage will lose marks, even if the turf cutter with the turbary rights is not one of those farmers. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is advising that active turf-cutting on parcels of land will lead to a reduction of 30% in the scoring. That means these parcels will now be marked out of seven. A score of four or more has to be achieved in order to get any payment.

Most commonage lands will have active turf-cutting taking place and this 30% reduction for shareholders will see a drastic reduction in payments for individual farmers. People are waiting to cut their turf, but they do not want to jeopardise their neighbours' payments and they are unsure as to how this would affect those payments. They may decide not to cut, but find that others will do so, lending to all payments being reduced. I ask that a sensible approach be used here. Previous schemes, such as the wild Atlantic nature scheme, mapped the area of the mountain being cut and excluded that from the scoring, while the recent of the mountain parcel was scored normally. Farmers are responsible custodians of their lands and are making considerable efforts to embrace biodiversity and tackle climate change. They need clarity and certainty as to the income they will receive and they are more than willing to play their part.

This is a real issue. I am giving the Minister of State a solution to it. The issue can be cleared up. These communities are experiencing significant anxiety. We do not want to have a situation where neighbours are falling out with one another over whether they can cut turf on their bogs. There is no impediment to them cutting, but they do not want to take away 30% of their neighbours' payments either. These farmers are very much dependent on these payments. I am concerned about ACRES - we may talk about it at another stage - with regard to farmers' expectations of what they will get out of the scheme.

When I see how things are transpiring at present, I think there will be farm families who will be hugely disappointed come September and October when they do not get the payments they were promised or they envisaged they might get under this scheme. That is a wider issue. I ask the Minister of State to look at it as well because farm families are dependent on these payments, this year above any other year, with the input costs and with the struggles of the cost of living around this as well.

The turf-cutting one is immediate. That needs to be solved now.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Senator Pippa Hackett)

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for this opportunity to discuss the new agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES. ACRES is our new, hugely popular and ambitious agri-environment climate measure under Ireland's CAP Strategic Plan 2023-2027. The Government has committed €1.5 billion to the scheme over its duration, which is the largest amount ever committed to an agri-environment scheme. The commitment of such a large amount of money highlights the importance of the scheme to the delivery of long-term environmental improvement through the participation by a significant number of farmers on the most appropriate land, with each making a strong improvement on his or her farm. ACRES has truly captured the imagination of farm families across the country with thousands upon thousands of farmers applying to join this exciting scheme. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, has confirmed that 46,000 farmers who applied for ACRES are being accepted into the scheme.

There are two approaches with ACRES. ACRES co-operation project, CP, applies in eight mapped zones that are areas of high nature value, hold significant carbon stores and are home to some of the most pristine waters in the country. In these CP areas, farmers work collectively and collaboratively to make major climate and biodiversity improvements. ACRES general is for all other farmers not falling within CP zones. Participants in ACRES commit under their ACRES contract to undertake certain actions for a period of five years. There are attractive rates of payment available under both approaches.

We are hugely supportive of farmers in the commonage areas. Commonage falls within both approaches and is a mandatory action for all ACRES participants with commonage land. Applicants with commonage received priority entry into ACRES general under tier 1 to incentivise farmers to help ensure habitats on such lands are maintained or restored to good condition through appropriate management practices. There is a set payment per hectare for commonages of 10 ha or less, with a requirement for the submission for a commonage farm plan prepared by certain advisers. As there is a results-based payment associated with commonages of greater than 10 ha, the application includes a commitment to have the commonage scored by an approved commonage assessor by a certain deadline. A payment will then be paid to that shareholder based on the score awarded. This assessment can be carried out without the consent or agreement of all shareholders where at least one shareholder is an ACRES participant.

Let me say clearly and for the absolute avoidance of any doubt that ACRES does not prohibit any activity on commonages. The approach in ACRES for commonage is for results-based payments so the payment rate relates to the quality of habitat using a range of criteria assessing the ecological and hydrological integrity of the commonage and various damaging activities. This scoring work on commonages will be undertaken at no cost to the farmer. Once completed, this work will also be a useful management tool to assist farmers to improve the management of commonages by helping to identify potential foraging capacity and appropriate stocking levels which optimise the achievement of a range of environmental services in parallel with agricultural activity. Additionally, the scoring will provide a benchmark by which farmers, with the support of their advisers and ACRES co-operation teams, can monitor progress and target specific areas for action to improve scoring and associated payment. This, ultimately, will be the way in which commonage farmers can enhance their contribution to national environmental outcomes.

While fully appreciating the rights of farmers to cut turf, the Department and co-operation teams are conscious that active turf-cutting could have a disproportionate impact on scores on commonage, and to ensure ACRES participants on commonage lands are rewarded for their environmental ambition, we are now proposing that non-turbary and turbary areas are scored independently of each other.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I appreciate that. Obviously, it is results based. However, when the Minister of State says that everyone will be eligible, the fact is that if the parcels were marked out of seven and they cannot achieve a score of four or more, they would be eligible but they would not get any payment.

I want to let the Minister of State expand on what she says "we are now proposing that non-turbary and turbary areas are scored independently of each other". Does that mean it will be similar to the other scheme, the wild Atlantic nature scheme, that has mapped the area of the mountain being cut and excluded that from the scoring while the rest of the mountain parcel is scored normally? The Minister of State might clarify if that is exactly what this means. Is it following the model of the Atlantic nature scheme? If it is, it will work.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Senator Pippa Hackett)

I thank the Deputy. To finish where I ran out of time, the idea is to separate out those areas. Where turf-cutting is allowed, that will be taken off the overall score. The farmer should not be disadvantaged by cutting, but if the farmer is cutting on a non-turbary area, he or she will be disadvantaged by that, but that is because he or she is damaging the habitat and does not have the permission to do that. That is a welcome development. It also means turbary rights on commonages are unaffected if the shareholder wishes to proceed with that activity and he or she will not be penalised for that. In doing so, any scoring related to active turbary will be confined to those subunits of active turbary, thereby allowing the vast majority of commonage land to be assessed independently of turbary, where such rights exist. ACRES farmers will be paid in full for their combined score on non-turbary and turbary areas, subject to scheme ceilings. The ultimate aim of all the ACRES schemes is to deliver an environmental return to the land for the wider landscape and, it is hoped, to the farmer as well.

It is important to say ACRES is not an income support scheme in the same way basic income support for sustainability, BISS, and direct payments would be, but we want to see farmers rewarded for good work. That is why we are taking the results-based approach. We have seen it work well in terms of European Innovation Partnership, EIP, projects, such as the hen harrier project. This is what has spawned these new co-operation project levels. I am familiar with many of the areas on the western seaboard as well and I look forward to the farmers engaging and us delivering on our environment ambitions through this scheme.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 9.08 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 17 Bealtaine 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.08 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 Bealtaine 2023.