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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2023

Vol. 1043 No. 7

Ceisteanna ar Pholasaí nó ar Reachtaíocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation

Our Defence Forces are facing a crisis and personnel numbers are critically low. Under the Tánaiste's watch, more people are leaving the Defence Forces every year than are being recruited. The Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces set out a very clear roadmap to address this crisis. It capital terms it set out the need for a €250 million investment each year for the next ten years. Last year, the Government missed that target by €70 million. The Tánaiste is now Minister for Defence and he missed the target this year by another €70 million. The capital budget for the Defence Forces is exactly the same as it was last year and the Tánaiste has ignored the Commission on the Future of the Defence Force's recommendations two years in a row. The budget includes no new measures to address the retention and recruitment crisis in the Defence Forces. It is clear the Tánaiste is neglecting our Defence Forces. That will continue as long as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are in Government. Will the Tánaiste be upfront and acknowledge that the budget failed to deliver the investment our Army, Air Corps and Naval Service so desperately need? Did the Tánaiste even seek the money in the first place or did he decide not to ask what the commission required?

The time is up, Deputy.

The Deputy is wrong. All he is attempting to do is exploit our Defence Forces for his own electoral and political benefit. The fact of the matter is that not one project is being held back, capital-wise.

In what way am I wrong?

Some €120 million worth of projects are under way and being developed. The capital programme is not finished, actually, because there are further national development plan allocations to take place. Your €250 million, of course-----

It is the commission's €250 million.

Yes. You have to build it up.

Yes, the €70 million-----

You are a bit more intelligent than you are letting on.

It is €250 million every year.

You know we cannot get to €250 million from day one when you have to build up the capital programme-----

You gave them no extra money this year than you did last year.

-----and you have to do the procurement.

You built it up by zero this year.

You built it up by zero this year.

There you are again. You are shouting again.

You built it up by a total of zero.

You are roaring again because it is all about the soundbite.

I thank the Tánaiste.

Your politics are the politics of the soundbite. I am more about substance.

How much did you build it up this year? Zero. You are the Minister for Defence. At least Donnelly went looking for the money.

Deputy, you are out of order.

At least Donnelly went looking for the money.

You are out of order, sir. Will you have some respect for the Chamber and your colleagues, please?

I want to join others in offering sincere sympathies to the family of Kim Damti on the awful news of her death during the brutal Hamas attack at the weekend. We are all thinking of her and her family. Today is the last sitting day before strike action is taken by community and voluntary care workers in section 10, section 39 and section 56 organisations. They do not want to go on strike. At a briefing organised by my colleague Deputy Duncan Smith yesterday, Martha Buckley, who is a carer for older people, said, “I’m going to be crying on the picket line, but we have no choice.” I have heard from constituents whose children will be desperately badly affected by the strike next week, as they will themselves. No one wants this strike to go ahead but the Government is doing nothing to stop it. The Tánaiste did not allocate anything for these workers in Tuesday’s budget. I understand that the unions have not even received contact from the Government in an attempt to avert the strike scheduled for next Tuesday. Will the Tánaiste step up now and avert the awful consequences that strike action will have for all of those - children with additional needs, wheelchair users and so many more - who will be really impacted by the withdrawal of services by the community and voluntary sector?

I thank the Deputy.

Will he avert strike action by guaranteeing pay parity for community and voluntary workers before next Tuesday?

I appreciate the Deputy raising this issue. I say to her that the Government is committed to resolving this issue. There had been discussions between the unions and Government officials and there had been contacts. As the Deputy knows, an offer was made but that was not acceptable to the union side. Contacts are ongoing and it is our determination to work with all sides to avoid strike action. We want to avoid strike action next week and we want to try to get this issue resolved on a sustainable basis into the future.

I want to return to the tragedy that is unfolding in Gaza at the minute. The Tánaiste previously mentioned two things which I would like to understand a little more about. My colleague Deputy Cairns asked about the response of the European Union and in particular the response of Ursula von der Leyen, who has completely shut her eyes to what is occurring in terms of the collective punishment and the bombs that are dropping on Palestine at the minute. That is concerning. I think the Irish State held itself well over the weekend. We are asking how that will continue. In particular, the Tánaiste referenced opening up the humanitarian corridors. I would like to know what information the Tánaiste has on humanitarian corridors and how quickly we can open them up. The situation with the siege that is occurring there is medieval at the minute. There is no water or electricity. Cholera will set in fairly soon and there will be a crisis of incredible proportions. What is the Irish State doing to ensure we can open those corridors quickly?

As I said to the Deputy's party leader, I have been interested in and involved in this issue for many years. What happened last Saturday is so significant that we have to take a moment to try to understand the impact on the Israeli psyche and society. This is not to justify anything but just to understand it in terms of the prism through which they have looked at this issue, which is security, security, security, terror, terror, terror. I do not believe in any military solution, ultimately. I believe in a political solution and a two-state solution. I believe in humanitarian interventions. Obviously, we are committed to that. The EU is the biggest donor and will remain the biggest donor in terms of the daily needs of Palestinians, from education to health to food. It is wrong to close off Gaza from fuel, food and so on.

I thank the Tánaiste.

I have asked my officials to work with UN authorities. The situation is very grim and what we are getting back from our UN interlocutors is very grim.

The time is up, please.

It is not right that this should happen.

The people of Gaza are paying an absolutely terrible price for the crimes of Israel.

Already 300 children have been killed by bombs by the Israeli state. These are tantamount to war crimes. Cutting off electricity, with no medical supplies and no food, to 2 million people is tantamount to a war crime. What has happened over the past week would sicken anybody in this House. Nobody wants to see anybody die. Will the Tánaiste use his influence as the Minister for Foreign Affairs for this country, at EU level, to hold Israel to account for its continued war crimes against the Palestinian people?

I hope we can have a debate next week in the House on this matter, when we will get more time to elaborate on it. I think it is time for all parties in this House to condemn Hamas as an organisation.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I genuinely say that in fairness. It should happen. Ireland has already submitted legal opinion to the International Court of Justice in respect of settlements and in respect of breaches of international law. Long before this terrible atrocity happened, we submitted a very robust and comprehensive legal submission. We have always called out breaches of UN resolutions and international law in respect of settlement expansion.

To this day, there is an urgent need now to stop settler aggression, which is happening right now in the West Bank. That is causing further potential for violence and escalation in areas there.

I thank the Tánaiste.

The situation is fraught all round. We all have work firmly with the right principles in accordance with international law to try and deal with this.

Condemn Israel. Condemn Israel's abuse. Condemn the war crimes.

Please, Deputy.

Condemn the war crimes.

On Sunday, 8 October, two days before the budget, a HSE tender issued to build a new €18 million medical clinical school on the grounds of CUH. The tender close-out date is just four weeks. I can find no reference to this development in the records of the House.

It is a new clinical medical school at CUH. I cannot see where the project was presented to the Dáil and where it was debated, scrutinised or approved by the House. University College Cork, UCC, informed us through the Irish Examiner that the development is for "anticipated" needs, not pressing or present needs. South East Technological University, SETU, is awaiting the outcomes of endless advisory panel reviews for new programmes in dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing and veterinary, not to mention the approval of our 2012 engineering building approved. UCC has its answer before any of these SETU processes have concluded seeing that this project has been whipped through the statutory approvals process. It is a beautiful thing to see three Ministers at the height of their powers making things happen for the people of Cork. I ask the Tánaiste will he answer this to the people of Waterford.

The Deputy has an awful set on Cork. It is extraordinary.

Two days before the budget.

For three years, the Deputy has. The Deputy should know because there is a medical school already there. CUH is a university hospital. By the way, universities are approximately 50% funded by the State.

This is on the campus of CUH.

I am saying to the Deputy they have other mechanisms by which they get money - finance, borrow, etc. - to update existing facilities. I am glad the Deputy mentioned it, by the way, because Deputy Doherty said there was nothing happening in Health. Deputy Shanahan is now criticising the fact that there is a major €18 million project going ahead.

No. I am criticising the fact that there is nothing comparable in Waterford.

The Deputy will be aware that we need more doctors, nursing staff, dentists, etc. I have no problem with expanding clinical and medical schools across the entire country to get the requisite numbers that we need for future population growth. The population is growing already.

Will the Taoiseach expand on the basis of benefiting University Hospital Waterford?

I cannot win today.

On behalf of the Rural Independents, I want to condemn both sides in Israel - the horrific attack by Hamas and, indeed, the ongoing response of the Israelis - and the death of that young Irish citizen. It is horrific.

I want to ask the Tánaiste how come the Government had a budget this week and it did not even mention these workers who are going on strike next week. Forced to go on the picket line, they do not want to go on the picket line. They are the best carers out there looking after our elderly, vulnerable, sick children, wheelchair users and everybody else, and they are forced to go on the picket line in tears to get parity of esteem with their HSE colleagues, who get €4 an hour extra doing the same work in the same settings. This is shocking, and we had a budget that ignored them completely. This budget - I do not know what planet the Government is on - ignored the fact of these workers and the impending strike and it will force them out onto the picket line to get basic human rights - parity of esteem in pay. The Government did not treat them well in the budget - low-paid workers anyway.

I thank the Deputy. The time is up.

To leave them out completely and the strike pending beggars belief.

First, on the Deputy’s earlier comments, we want a de-escalation of all violence in the Middle East. We do not accept or approve of any breaches of international law in terms of the bombing of innocent Gazans and the killing of children and women as a result of the indiscriminate bombing that is currently going on.

In respect of the section 39 organisations, pay negotiations and discussions do not get mentioned in budget statements generally. There is a public service pay agreement due and that will have to be negotiated with the unions. Likewise, in terms of section 39 organisations, the Deputy will be aware that negotiations had taken place, an offer had been made and it was not deemed acceptable.

That will continue. We want to get it resolved.

Like previous speakers, I would like to express my condolences with the family of Kim Damti and also to condemn the actions of Hamas in the targeting of civilians. I have absolutely no hesitation in doing that. However, when we do that, we must also condemn Israel and its actions. There is no way out of that. Their language and the language of the defence minister is simply appalling. The Tánaiste mentioned the Old Testament, and the Israeli Defense Minister talks about the Palestinians as "human animals and we will act accordingly". That is totally unacceptable.

In my short minute, I cannot go into the background to this. However, I congratulate the Tánaiste and the Government on their leadership in relation to going against Hungary and the Commissioner there, and showing leadership in relation to keeping up the humanitarian assistance, but we need to do a lot more than that. Gaza is an open prison.

As I speak here, I am conscious that the Red Cross has said the hospitals will be turned into graveyards. We are talking about thousands dead in Israel and Palestine.

I want our voice to be heard. The Government has made a very good start. This war has to stop. Israel, like Hamas, has to be called out. We need to be a voice for peace and to stop this horrific slaughter.

I appreciate the Deputy raising the issue. We are a voice for peace. We will be a voice for peace. We have maintained contact with all of the states involved and all of the interlocutors involved in the Middle East process.

I am only weeks out of the Middle East, having been there for three days. I did not anticipate the horrors of what was to follow although we were fairly depressed coming out in the absence of any political momentum and in what was clearly a deteriorating situation. In our view, there has to be a political track developed to once and for all try and resolve these issues. There has to be a determined effort by significant major powers, both in Europe and elsewhere, to get this on a sustainable political path because the implications are horrific on the citizens of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, but also all the neighbouring countries face huge challenges as a result of the violence that is unfolding right now.

I welcome the budgetary decision to introduce again the €1,000 reduction in the student contribution fee for higher education students. This has been introduced again as a part of the cost-of-living package. Last year, students studying outside our jurisdiction, be it in Northern Ireland, Britain or elsewhere, were wrongly denied this payment and, similarly, were denied the rent tax credit as well. Whatever obstacles exist to ensuring those two benefits are applied to all students from the State should be removed without delay. It is well within the capacity of Government, if the will is there, to ensure some bit of fairness for those students who in many cases did not obtain places here on the courses of their choice and are studying elsewhere. The Exchequer is, quite rightly, supporting some major capital projects in Northern Ireland, and presumably within proper Government financial procedures. If we are serious about student mobility, our administrative systems must adapt and change and ensure a level playing field for all students. Families here, regardless of their children's study location, have similar cost-of-living pressures.

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. Coming from the Border area, the Deputy has been a particularly vociferous and articulate advocate on behalf of students who are in Northern Ireland and, indeed, as he said, elsewhere. I will talk to the relevant Ministers in respect of this to see what can be done.

Given the appalling vista that now opens up in the Middle East and the continuous conflict between all sides, I ask the Tánaiste if it might now be an opportunity - a tragic opportunity but one nonetheless - for Ireland to make a particular case to the international community, through the United Nations, the EU and wherever, to set up a permanent structure in situ in the Middle East to which all sides could go with their grievances as they occur because the lack of such a structure now leaves nothing except the hard men who dictate what happens. Hamas has now brought on the Palestinian people an appalling vista as well. Similarly, the things that have gone on on the other side as well will continue unless there is a structure of that nature with a permanent emphasis on bringing peace to the area.

I omitted to say earlier that during United Nations General Assembly week, the European Union took an initiative on the Middle East. Dr. Koopmans, its special envoy, with the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Mr. Josep Borrell, convened a meeting of EU member states and Arab member states to identify the benefits that might flow if a settlement was arrived at.

This was the beginning of a new effort by the EU to try to deal with the intractability of the Middle East issue, not realising what was about to happen. I meant to mention this to Deputy Cairns earlier because it illustrates the degree to which the EU, and Josep Borrell in particular, remains engaged. Being open to stakeholders is a constant for the EU.

Two weeks ago, a young boy was playing a football match in County Monaghan when he suffered a serious injury involving a complicated fracture. The medical advice was that he should not be moved until an ambulance arrived. It took three hours for the ambulance to arrive. In this week’s budget, the Government has underfunded our health service. How long will young children be expected to wait for ambulances next year? How many elderly will be left waiting in their homes for the emergency care they need? How does the Tánaiste stand over the Government’s record in allowing situations whereby people are obliged to wait hours on end for ambulances to become the new norm?

That is very distressing for the young footballer and his family. I hope he is making a good recovery from his injuries. I am not aware of the background as to why the ambulance service took three hours to get to the particular location but there has been significant investment in the National Ambulance Service. There is no getting away from that, and it will continue. The most important aspect of that is the professionalisation of our whole paramedic area and the development of the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council, PHECC, in particular to really raise standards. This has happened over the past decade to a transformative degree, which is not often acknowledged. It is critical for any person who has an injury that the professional gets there as quickly as possible. Three hours is far too long to wait for an ambulance to come.

The intervention by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Connolly, on the events in Israel is significant, particularly her comments regarding the leadership shown by the Tánaiste. I echo those sentiments. I also want to put on the record that there is a very small Jewish population in this country that feels particularly vulnerable and fearful right now. I want to acknowledge that and put those words on the record. Those people are not forgotten in this country.

There are those who suggest that they favour spending and using windfall tax gains today while simultaneously claiming to be fiscally responsible. On Tuesday - and I welcome this- the Government introduced the infrastructure, climate and nature fund, the moneys in which are to reach €14 billion by 2030. Will the Tánaiste give some insight into the rationale behind the initiation of that fund?

I thank the Deputy. I concur with what he said about the Jewish population in our society. Our Constitution has always embraced our colleagues in the Jewish community. It is an important point that the Deputy made. I make the point that there is a variety of different strands of opinion within Israel, which we have seen recently in civil society there in the context of constitutional issues. That needs to be said.

On spending and the fund, the idea is that we can plan in a way that there will be a sufficiency of capital money available in order that when there are economic downturns, we can maintain the capital projects to which we have committed and that we will have resources to build the roads, public transport, provide the buses, water infrastructure and have the capacity to buy land in terms of biodiversity, nature restoration and meeting our climate targets and reducing emissions.

The second-biggest city in Northern Ireland, Derry, has fewer than 6,000 third level students, whereas 35,000 to 40,000 students have descended on our second-biggest city, Cork, and are attending Munster Technological University or University College Cork. What commitment can we give to try to assist in the development of a major third level institution in the second-biggest city in Northern Ireland, particularly in the context of the barriers that have been put up over many years in the context of that development? As Lord Mayor of Cork, I had the privilege of presenting the freedom of the city of Cork to John Hume. I proposed that it be called the John Hume memorial university, which would have huge international attraction. Cross-border development is extremely important for the region. What progress can be made on that in the next 12 months?

We have made progress on that. Under the shared island initiative, this year we announced a massive investment in the Magee Campus of Ulster University for the construction of a new building. I think there is up to €40 million in that allocation. I will get a precise figure for the Deputy. In addition, in the shared island research projects involving collaboration between different universities on the island, the Magee Campus, and Ulster University more generally, would have won some projects. It is very interested in a partnership with the Atlantic Technological University network as well. There has been very good progress. Last year, our officials worked very hard on this and the announcement was made earlier this year.

I raise the issue of the summer flooding that took place at the Shannon Callows. Once again, farmers and their lands have been absolutely devastated by flooding over the summer months. Farmers are under huge financial pressure. They face absolute wipe-out. They have no silage, hay or fodder for the winter months. They urgently need support from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Save our Shannon organisation has written to the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, three times and still awaits his response. I am asking that these farmers be supported by the Department in the short term. In the longer term, I am asking for a single agency for the River Shannon to manage it once and for all and that one agency would be responsible for it. We brought forward legislation nearly three years ago. The then Minister said he wanted to bring forward his own legislation and asked us to give him nine months to do that. We are nearly three years down the line and there is still no legislation for the management of the River Shannon. We cannot keep allowing flooding to devastate farmers' homes and lands over and over again. I ask for an update on the legislation.

I recently met with the Shannon Callows farmers group. The meeting was organised by Deputies Troy and Cowen, Senator Eugene Murphy and a number of others. They made a very harrowing presentation on the impact of flooding on their farms. I undertook to go to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which I have, and I have spoken to him on this in the immediate sense of some supports, particularly fodder, to be provided to the farmers in view of the financial predicament in which they find themselves because of a weather event. Whether it is what is happening with the climate, these events are significantly different from what would have been the case in times past. I will revert to the group when I meet it and let the Deputy know how we matters are being progressed. My understanding is that work is still ongoing in respect of the legislation.

On the rates revaluation happening in County Galway, I was contacted by a businessman who submitted appeals in respect of three of his offices last November. He did not receive a response. Last week, he was in Tuam for a public consultation and was told by a person from the Valuation Office that it had no record of the appeals. When he met a more senior person, that man apologised profusely and said that the office does not have the people it needs to deal with appeals. The man to whom I refer will now have to go through another process in order to try and get his appeal heard.

On the vacant property tax, 25,000 notices have been issued by Revenue. People will be appealing these decisions. The appeals have to be in by 7 November. I am asking that sufficient resources be made available in Revenue to deal with people's queries. I also ask that sufficient resources be provided to the Valuation Office.

I do not know if they are having recruitment issues or whatever, I cannot get into the micro level of who is answering phone calls or not in a given situation. However, I will certainly speak to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage-----

They do not have the resources.

There has never been more funding allocated than in recent years. We need some efficiencies-----

People are needed.

-----and better ways of working.

I want to express my sympathy and condolences to the family of Kim Damti and the families of all those who have tragically lost their lives over the past week. Speaking about Russia on 19 October last year, President von der Leyen stated: "... attacks against civilian infrastructure, especially electricity, are war crimes. Cutting off men, women, children of water, electricity and heating with winter coming - these are acts of pure terror. And we have to call it as such." Now, when Israel is doing precisely that, all she has to say is about the right of Israel to defend itself, giving a green light to the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza that is currently taking place. Will the Tánaiste do what President von der Leyen refuses to do? Will he call it out? Will he describe Israel's siege of Gaza as a war crime? Will he describe the raining down of bombs on residential buildings and hospitals as acts of pure terror?

I will not allow the Deputy put words in my mouth. He knows that I have consistently called out indiscriminate bombing of conurbations, particularly in Gaza, as far back as 2009.

Will the Tánaiste call them war crimes?

When I visited Gaza, I could see for myself that if you bomb a residential block, children and women will be killed. I do not need, with respect, any lectures or tutorials from the Deputy as to how I express and articulate myself in respect of the Middle East. I ask him to unreservedly condemn Hamas.

I do not need lectures from the Tánaiste. He will not condemn a war crime.

Would he describe what happened------

The Tánaiste will not condemn a war crime.

-----last Saturday as a war crime?

I do not need lectures from the Tánaiste.

I am just asking him if the Deputy would do that or has he done it?

The Tánaiste is an absolute hypocrite.

It is seven weeks into the school term and it appears that there are still more than 200 students in County Wicklow who do not have seats on their school buses. I use the word "appears" because it is impossible to get information from the Minister for Education.

More than 200. It is impossible to get information from the Minister for Education on this matter. I have repeatedly asked her for details in relation to it. The Ceann Comhairle will agree with me on the responses from the Minister. Parents need clarity and an honest response from the Department as to whether their children will get places on school buses at all. Will the Tánaiste direct that either a representative from the Department of Education or Bus Éireann come to County Wicklow to meet parents? They just want to find out what is going on and whether school bus places will be available for their children in the future.

We are out of time. I will take two 30-second questions from Deputies Higgins and Ó Murchú.

I welcome this year's budget. I know it will help families and households, but I have had a lot of contact from local businesses in my area that are excluded from the increased cost of business scheme. In particular, pubs and supermarkets in Lucan and Palmerstown are among those businesses that have been in touch. They are in the hospitality and retail sectors, which are really labour-intensive and which also require, by their very nature, a large footprint, which, therefore, increases their rates bills. Based on their rates bills, they will not qualify for Government support, even though they are among the industries most impacted by the increase in the minimum wage, the new bank holiday and mandatory sick pay. Will the Government re-examine the scheme or look to see how we can support these businesses with their costs?

On my behalf and on behalf of Deputy Munster, I commend the board of Drogheda United FC and its chair, Councillor Joanna Byrne, on their work. There has been provisional acceptance of an investment offer by the Trivela Group, which has been okayed by the FAI and which must be finalised at next month's AGM. This project is about keeping the best parts of a community club, professionalising it and developing a new stadium.

Is there a question?

Yes. Soccer and the League of Ireland need this sort of redevelopment. In order that I do not get lynched, I must also state that Dundalk FC has a development group that is working on short- and long-term plans in relation to the development of Oriel Park. We know that the bid to host Euro 2028 has been a success and that money is needed for the redevelopment of Casement Park. However, money is needed across the board.

Now that Deputy Shanahan is not in the Chamber, you could go down to Turner's Cross in County Cork. We made a lot of incremental investments there to provide a fine little stadium there over the years.

I will talk to the Minister for Education about the issue Deputy Whitmore raised.

Particularly a meeting.

To get the issue resolved is the main thing. CIÉ should be talking and people should be talking on the ground locally.

On the matter raised by Deputy Higgins, across the budget area, about €250 million has been allocated in terms of business schemes. The precise details have yet to be worked out. Equally, in areas relating to mental health, older people and disability, people come to us saying they could do with more. We have to weigh all of this up. This is a huge budget. In any scheme that has been announced, there are always lines drawn in the context of finance, tax and so on. We have to be clear from here on in that this is a substantial budget. We have been criticised by economists and so on who say it is too big. We will assess everything. There is a degree of finality to the overall framework around this budget, but I hear what the Deputy is saying.

I will follow up with the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on the matter Deputy Ó Murchú raised. I am not quite clear what the question was.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 1.16 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 1.56 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 1.16 p.m. and resumed at 1.56 p.m.
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