The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is very welcome.
Sustainability of Stability of Services Provided by Section 39 and Section 56 Organisations on behalf of the HSE and Tusla: Statements
I welcome this opportunity to address the House on the hugely important role that section 39 and section 56 organisations and their staff play in our health and social care services. I welcome everyone in this Gallery to hear this debate.
Next week, a number of section 39 and section 56 organisations may begin a strike. This matter is highly important to me and to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. I recognise the potential impact that any industrial action will have on the lives of those who avail of services provided by section 39 and section 56 organisations. The sustainability of these organisations is a multifaceted problem affecting multiple arms of the State. The sector is experiencing critical dependencies around the competitive ability to recruit and retain staff. This has been highlighted by the sector for numerous years. Many Departments have funding relationships with these organisations. The matter at hand will affect the Departments of Justice, Education and Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It will have ramifications for the Departments of Social Protection and Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.
The coming weeks will constitute a benchmark moment for this sector. I am grateful for the attention that has been paid to this escalating issue by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. This is one of those rare instances where all parties involved in discussions are effectively on the same side and wish to see a resolution reached that is satisfactory to all. To achieve this, a balance has to be maintained in respect of the impact on Exchequer funding. As always, there are limits to our spending ability.
To provide a little more context, I will briefly outline the situation. Officials from my Department, the Department of Health, the HSE and Tusla attended a number of engagements with trade unions under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, in recent months. In July, that process culminated in an offer being made to unions. My Department and the Department of Health made a combined offer amounting to a 5% increase in funding for pay, effective from November 2023 and with 3% backdated to April 2023.
In addition, a commitment to re-engage with trade union representatives following further public sector pay agreements was also offered. This was an important move. Union representatives rejected the offer. As we now know, unions representing section 39 and section 56 workers have announced that their members in a selection of employer organisations will take indefinite strike action, commencing next Tuesday, 17 October. Actions will involve health and community workers in a variety of grades and in multiple locations across 62 voluntary service provider organisations. Any industrial action will negatively affect the people who use these services. My officials and those in the Department of Health are available to engage with employers and unions. The hope is that a suitable solution can be reached to avert any industrial action. In the meantime, the relevant agencies – Tusla and HSE – have been asked to engage in contingency planning with the employer organisations that will be affected by industrial action so that any impact on those who depend on these essential services can be managed to the greatest extent possible.
I am conscious that similar considerations arise in respect of other sectors across government, adding to the complexity in seeking a resolution for any specific sector. As highlighted, staff recruitment and retention challenges comprise a critical factor affecting the sustainability and stability of section 39 and section 56 organisations and their ability to deliver services on behalf of the State. These challenges are mirrored in many of the health and social care professions across the country.
My Department is engaged in ongoing dialogue with involved agencies and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Indeed, I understand my officials are meeting their counterparts in that Department around now to discuss these issues once again. It is recognised that a solution to the current situation will involve additional investment into these sectors, securing their sustainability and stability. These discussions are continuing. Until they are concluded, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further. Suffice it to say that the sustainability and stability of health and social care sectors are a concern for me and the Government, including the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman. We recognise that the ability of voluntary organisations to pay their staff is highly dependent on State funding.
Regarding section 39 organisations, these voluntary organisations deliver a range of health and social care services to communities around Ireland. These include: residential, day and ancillary services for people with disabilities; mental health services; palliative care services; addiction services; and other health and social care services provided in the community. They also include a wide range of community initiatives that improve older people’s lives, maintaining a sense of community and combating loneliness and isolation, while also providing practical services such as meals on wheels, laundry, basic essential repairs and much more. These types of supports in the community are extremely valuable. Voluntary organisations frequently make up a large part of the service delivery landscape – for example, delivering between 70% and 80% of disability services in the majority of community health areas. Staff of these organisations perform the same roles as public sector staff but may receive lower pay.
Building Momentum, the public sector pay agreement, has widened the gap between section 39 workers and other workers delivering equivalent services in the public sector. Notably, in the case of disability services, HSE and section 39 staff frequently work directly alongside each other in multidisciplinary teams, particularly on the children’s disability network teams. Their work is essential in providing services to many families and vulnerable people in society. The systemic sustainability and stability of organisations in the health and social care sector is, therefore, a significant concern for the Government. I understand these challenges and recognise that the ability of voluntary organisations to pay their staff and effectively and safely deliver services is highly dependent on the State funding they receive. Staff recruitment and retention challenges are not new or unique to these organisations, but I remain committed to effectively working with all relevant parties to resolve these systemic issues.
With the potential of industrial action next week, we face an urgent and difficult situation in seeking to resolve the pay claim from staff employed in the community and voluntary sector.
I know from my engagement with service users and families that the announcement that service disruptions will begin next week is already causing significant distress for many. We have a collective responsibility to exhaust all opportunities to avoid further anxiety and the impact of actual service disruptions. In that regard, I acknowledge the constructive engagement and openness of the staff representatives during discussions facilitated by the WRC. Unfortunately, these initial engagements did not result in a resolution but the Departments remain available to reconvene and we all know that a solution will only be reached through further dialogue.
As a Minister of State in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, I find it particularly hard to accept the status quo. We are not just talking about figures on a spread sheet. These are real people with real lives. These are individuals and their families who are trying to keep the show on the road. Ultimately, these staff are supporting people with disabilities who, in turn, are trying to live their lives. Some will say there is a fear of contagion and of the impact this will have on other sectors. I look at it differently. I look at the contagion of care and fair wages for staff, a contagion of increased pride in the work being done by section 39 and 56 organisations, a contagion of equality.
When I was appointed Minister of State with responsibility for disability, one of the key issues I addressed was pay restoration for section 39 organisations. I secured and delivered the money for it in 2020 because it was the right thing to do. This stemmed from a time when financial emergency measures in the public interest cuts were made to the pay of public servants and when section 39 organisations were faced with difficult decisions due to reductions in their core funding. While it is understood that pay savings were made by certain community and voluntary organisations, the precise mix of pay cuts or other savings measures varied from organisation to organisation. To address this, a process involving the Department of Health, the HSE and ICTU was initiated at the WRC in 2018 to work through the complex issues involved and agree a process to consider the pay of staff in section 39 organisations whose employers had cut their pay. This resulted in funding being made available for pay increases for an initial 50 larger scale agencies within a total group of 300 agencies that met various criteria. Pay rises commenced in 2019 with an annual pay increase of up to €1,000. In December 2020, there was further engagement at the WRC, which resulted in funding being made available for pay increases for cohorts of staff in the remaining 250 agencies identified in 2018. They had to wait far too long. A payment arrangement consisting of three phases was agreed, with the first two payments made in 2021 and the third and final payment made in 2023.
Notwithstanding the efforts to address pay restoration in recent years, the Government recognises that sustainability and stability challenges persist in the voluntary sector, in both section 38 and section 39 organisations. The HSE and the Department are working to develop short, medium and long-term solutions to address recruitment and retention issues. I chair a working group on this issue, which meets regularly and is attended by representatives from the HSE and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.
I put on the record the fact that the official from the Department of Finance has left and that an official from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has arrived.
The HSE also has a dedicated team working closely with individual organisations to address sustainability challenges.
Regarding WRC engagement to date, although neither the HSE nor the Department are the direct employers of staff in these organisations and therefore have no power to set pay rates or terms and conditions, both parties recognise the role section 39 organisations play in supporting and shaping the sector through the funding provided. The priority for both the Government and the HSE is to ensure that service users receive adequate services to live fulfilling lives in their communities. In recognition of the fact that recruitment and retention issues are affecting the ability of section 39 organisations to deliver services, my Department and the Department of Health made a combined offer to increase funding by approximately €54 million on an recurring annual basis to section 39 and section 56 bodies. The unions did not accept this offer and indicated that their members in a selection of organisations, including, disability services providers, would take indefinite strike action from Tuesday. Any industrial action will impact negatively on the people who use these services. I again urge the unions to return to the negotiation process. The employer organisations also need to be directly involved to avoid industrial action and the negative impacts this will have on service users.
In an effort to mitigate this impact, the service providers affected have been asked by the HSE to ensure that they: identify priority cases that need contingency planning during the strike action; identify essential services that must continue during the strike action; link in with the relevant trade unions and seek derogations for particular priority staff who may need to be rostered to continue essential service provision; engage with trade union officials regarding developing contingency plans to minimise service disruption; and communicate with families regarding this strike action and potential disturbance to services. The HSE will continue to engage closely with services to ensure the impact of any service disruptions can be minimised to the greatest extent possible.
Since my appointment to this role, my overarching ambition has been to improve the range of disability services available to children and adults. I recognise the essential role section 39 providers play in achieving this. This year’s financial allocation for disability services demonstrates the Government’s strong commitment to building capacity in this area. I was delighted to announce earlier this week that an additional €195 million will be invested in disability services for 2024, bringing total investment to €2.8 billion. My priority for 2024 will be the enhancement of person-centred supports and services, supporting the progressive roll-out of the action plan for disability services, and the roadmap for children’s disability services. I am aware that the implementation of these strategies cannot come quickly enough for those awaiting access to services and their families. I am confident that the allocation for 2024 will allow crucial investment in important services. I will work closely with my ministerial colleagues, the HSE, voluntary providers and disabled persons organisations to ensure that this funding has a substantial impact in 2024.
I turn now to current Government discussions about section 56 organisations. Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, is legally responsible under the Child and Family Act 2013 for a wide range of services to support and promote the development, welfare and protection of children and the effective functioning of families, which include family support services, child protection services, alternative care services, birth information and tracing, adoption, children’s services regulation and Tusla education support services. A major contributor to delivering these services is the work section 56 organisations carry out. Tusla works with more than 600 section 56 organisations. These organisations deliver a broad range of vital services locally all over Ireland including psychology services, speech and language therapy, play therapy, bereavement counselling, general counselling, art therapy, provision of residential-care placements and services for survivors of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. In addition, these organisations range from multinational operations with hundreds of employees to local community-based organisations with small cohorts of staff that are often dependent on volunteers. Section 56 bodies have seen funding increase from €138 million in 2014 to €206 million in 2022. That is an increase of almost 50% and is reflective of the increasing demand for services and the demands arising from recent societal challenges. Also included in this increase, is the addition of initiatives such as the children and young people's services committees national programme and area-based childhood programme, as well as the expansion of the family resource centre programmes. Previously, a €6.5 million increase in funding was provided to section 56 services to allow them to begin to address the sustainability and survivability crisis facing the sector.
Further increases to funding include the €7 million paid to organisations under various Covid-19 measures during 2021; 11 additional family resource centres, FRCs, added to FRC programme at a cost of €1.76 million with additional increases in funding to other existing family resource centres; and dormant account funding for the FRC programme was secured over 2020, 2021 and 2022 amounting to €2.77 million.
Tusla relies on the delivery of services by a variety of section 56 bodies. These services are always prepared to be flexible and adaptable and open to the complex needs of children and families served by Tusla. In the event section 56 services ceased operations, the agency would be under tremendous financial and resource pressure to maintain these services for families. As has been the case in other settings, the State having to step in, in an emergency capacity to stabilise an organisation, has significant cost and risk implications and is an action of last resort.
Section 56 organisations have reported that due to the inability to compete as a recruiter, potential staff have declined positions in the advanced stages of recruitment. The recruitment and retention of staff in this sector has become a major challenge and is impacting service delivery and responses to additional demands. Attracting and retaining qualified and skilled staff who can provide the level of care required for children and families is vital within these services. The time and resources required to deliver a successful recruitment campaign have significantly increased for these organisations. Potential staff declining positions due to current salaries assigned to posts has been flagged by the sector and many service providers have been unable to increase salaries since 2014 rates. Being unable to recruit and retain staff is impacting service delivery for these organisations and compounding waiting lists.
In budget 2024, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, prioritised resourcing Tusla to fulfil its statutory responsibilities and support the most vulnerable in our society. This will increase Tusla’s allocation in 2024. Over the coming weeks, the Minister will be engaging with his officials and senior Tusla management with regard to Tusla’s business plan for 2024 which will determine how best to use this funding to achieve better outcomes for Tusla’s service users.
The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, will be joining me as he is at a Cabinet subcommittee meeting at the moment. He sends his apologies that he is not here at the start of this debate but he will join us as soon as he is out of the Cabinet meeting.
I start by welcoming to the Gallery the members of the National Federation of Voluntary Service Providers, and, more importantly, I want to welcome those service users who are here because they are understandably, justifiably, and incredibly anxious at the moment that the Government has allowed this to deteriorate to the level where we are now mere days from a very serious industrial action.
As the Minister of State knows, the industrial action is taking place following the breakdown of Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, talks in July. We are now in October so the Government has had all of that time to come to the table. This is not, as the Minister of State said in her contribution, one of those rare instances where all of the parties involved in the discussions are effectively on the same side because if the Government was on the same side as the service providers, or indeed as the unions, this matter would be resolved.
When the pay was cut by Fianna Fáil and the Green Party back in 2008 and 2009, a number of issues were raised at the time, all of which related to funding. I was a representative of those workers at the time and I remember it very clearly. A number of organisations were taken to the Labour Court but the advice from the then Government was very clear. It was to cut the pay. These organisations were told that their grant had been decreased. The service providers asked what would they to do as they would not be able to deliver the level of service. The response from the Government was that they would deliver that level of service and that there would be no reduction in service delivery. Where else could these organisations cut only to cut pay?
For workers in the public service, there was a route back to pay restoration. There was not a route to pay restoration for these workers and, as a result of that, notwithstanding the small interventions which have been made, it is estimated that the pay difference is more than 10%, and in some instances, is up to 20%. The end result of this is that these organisations are now haemorrhaging staff to the HSE. Staff are leaving to go to the retail sector because they know that it will pay better. Believe me, they do not want to have to do this.
I spoke to workers in the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, Fórsa and SIPTU recently and they are saying that they will be on the picket line if they have to, but that they will have tears in their eyes. They do not want to have to leave the people who depend on the services and do not want to be on strike, but the Minister of State's Government has left them with no choice. They have made themselves available for discussions, they have rejected the quite frankly derisory offer which was made, bearing in mind that The Wheel is estimating that the difference could be as much as 20%. Some 5% is obviously not going to do it.
The Minister of State had to have known that the 5% was not going to be a runner, and that that was effectively going to insult the organisations. She is now a Minister of State, so she knew that this would be an insult to the people who were down in the WRC. She comes in here, months later, and says everybody should making their best efforts when she knows that at every turn, the workers have said that they are available for discussions.
I raised this issue with the Tánaiste last week and I asked about contingency arrangements. There are no contingency arrangements. The Minister of State was correct when she said that the service users are panicked, anxious and worried. Of course they are, because they do not know what is going to happen but they see that the Government is fairly intractable on this.
I welcome the Minister of State’s commitment that this is going to involve extra funding. That is a clear signal to the unions that there will be extra on the table and a clear signal that the Minister of State knows that that 5% was an outright insult to the men and women delivering the services.
Let us not forget that 70% of services, which are provided to persons with disabilities on behalf of the Minister of State’s Government and the State, are provided by voluntary providers. They are doing the work of the State but are doing it for significantly less money than their comparators within the HSE and the other services.
I take issue with the Minister of State when she said she was “delighted”, no less, to announce earlier this week an additional €195 million. I am looking at a response, however, from the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, which was sent to our party leader where it said that €131 million of that funding was for existing levels of service. How is that then an additional €195 million? It is not as €131 million of that was just to stand still. There is, therefore, not very much by way of additional services or additional money.
The response from the Department states that section 39 and section 56 organisations are privately-owned and operated and that the terms and conditions of employment of staff in those organisations are ultimately between the employer and their employees. Is the Department actively trying to drive these workers to the picket line?
This is not my speech.
This is a quote from a response given by the Minister of State’s Department.
That is not in my speech.
The Minister of State knows that these organisations do not have the capacity to raise the money. The money they get is money in and money out. They do not have reserves or the capacity to go in and negotiate in the way that a private sector employer would and to call them privately-owned and operated where they are voluntary services-----
I did not.
The Minister of State's Department did.
Do not misquote me.
To call them that is, as the Minister of State knows, disingenuous in the extreme. Both the Minister of State and I know they deliver services on behalf of the State for a fraction of the money people directly employed by the State get paid. The Minister of State needs to look at what the public pronouncements are and to consider whether or not there could be perhaps more respect shown to those workers and that perhaps that is the route to a resolution, that is, recognising that these workers deserve their pay increase.
More than that, the Government should look at the actual impact that the failure to address this issue is having. The unions have been incredibly patient as have the workers. This is going on for years. Every single time there is any pay movement on a national wage agreement or otherwise, the gap gets wider. We know the public service trade unions are going to be engaged in discussions before the end of the year and I am hopeful that there will be some class of an agreement arising out of that.
If this is not resolved, they will fall further behind. Every time there is a pay award, the gap gets wider. The job in the HSE becomes more attractive and the job in the voluntary sector becomes less attractive. Service users are left to worry about who is going to provide the services to them. I note that the senior Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is here. I welcome him. I hope that, in his contribution, he will be able to outline how he believes this situation will be resolved. As I have said, there are service users in the Gallery and I am sure they want to know how the Minister thinks this situation will be resolved because resolved it must be. Some 70% of the services for persons with disabilities are provided by the voluntary sector. Those people need to be paid to provide that service. They do not want to be on the picket line next Tuesday but it is in the gift of the Government to ensure that does not happen.
I too extend a welcome to the National Federation of Voluntary Service Providers and service users in the Gallery.
The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, recently announced the intention of SIPTU, Fórsa and Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, members representing section 39 and section 56 workers to initiate indefinite strike action on 17 October. It was announced three weeks ago and I thought surely there would be time to resolve the issue before they went to strike. If this industrial action is not averted, serious hardship will befall families and communities. These are workers who work in front-line services, including health and disability services and family support. They look after children and take care of older people. They also offer homelessness and addiction services. Section 56 organisations provide services funded by Tusla. There are at least 700 section 56 organisations that provide services related to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.
Section 39 organisations are generally voluntary, non-statutory service providers responsible for the provision of personal social services, mainly disability services. There are approximately 1,900 organisations with section 39 status and they include children's disability network teams, CDNTs, respite services, hospices, mental health providers, nursing home and home care providers, small community-based groups and social care services. We have examples such as Enable Ireland, Rehab Group and the Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA. This dispute over the disparity in terms and conditions is not recent. It has been ongoing for more than 13 years, dating back to a decision to reduce pay for those workers during the recession. While pay for the HSE and their section 38 counterparts has been restored, that has not been the case for section 39 and section 56 workers. The industrial action that is to start next Tuesday is an inevitable consequence of the Government's ongoing refusal to properly address the disparity in pay and conditions for these workers. The workers in these sectors have now chosen to take this action because the State, as the chief funding body, has failed to grasp the seriousness of the staffing crisis that it helped to create. There are, for instance, 707 staff vacancies in CDNTs according to the most recent HSE census, taken almost one year ago. I recognise that not all of those teams are section 39 organisations and some of them are within the HSE. The point is that the section 39 CDNTs are haemorrhaging staff to the HSE. This situation cannot be sustained. We have over 10,000 children with disabilities waiting more than 12 months for an initial contact with a specialist team. We have more waiting for overdue assessments of needs.
Respite is another service staffed by workers in section 39 organisations. Respite plays an essential role in supporting family carers and disabled people, yet three quarters of families are unable to get respite at all. There is now a significant and growing level of unmet need in respite care with fewer than 5,200 people receiving respite services in 2022 despite an estimated 20,000 people, or more, with intellectual disabilities, physical and sensory disabilities or autism living with their families.
The situation is getting worse. Fewer people received respite in 2022 than received it in 2018. These are the sorts of essential services that will be affected due to the Government dragging its feet on this issue for years. We must also remember that we are in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, with increased prices for food and fuel, increased mortgage interest rates and so forth. Workers are having to deal with this while they area on lesser terms and conditions than their HSE and section 28 counterparts who are often working next to them in the same building, who have the same qualifications and do the same work, but with whom there is a pay disparity in excess of 10%. Workers do tremendous work to deliver vital services in the community and they have been treated abysmally. The decision to take strike action was taken with a heavy heart. It is an action of last resort. It has been a difficult decision for the workers involved who are passionate about delivering essential services.
It was clear that the offer of 5% made by the Government in July fell way below what was expected and would be rejected as the pay differential is in excess of 10%. I raised this issue here in the Dáil with the Taoiseach. In response, he told me:
I do not think it is correct to say that the Government expected the offer would be refused, because a very similar offer was accepted by the community and voluntary sector when it was put to a ballot ... On this occasion, a decision was taken by the unions not to put the offer to a ballot of their members. It is unfortunate that did not happen.
That was factually incorrect. All three unions carried out a ballot of their workers and report that the ballots returned showed a very high level of participation and overwhelming support for industrial action up to and including strike. The Government now has to engage seriously with the unions and make a sufficient offer to ensure this issue is dealt with. We must ensure that disabled people, their families and wider communities will not be put through the hardship this will inevitably cause. These organisations, as I said, are haemorrhaging staff to the HSE and section 38 organisations. They already, in many instances, have to curtail their services because they cannot get the staff to provide a full service. If the issue is not addressed properly, these essential services will close and there will be an obligation on the HSE to step in and provide them itself at a much greater cost to the taxpayer.
Government inaction and delay has only served to put these vital community services at risk and leave section 39 and section 56 workers to feel as though they have no option but to withdraw their labour. The Government offered workers a pay increase of just 5%. The reality is that the pay gap of some staff in section 39 organisations has been estimated to be approximately 15% when compared with staff employed by the HSE or section 38 organisations despite their doing the same work. A Sinn Féin government would engage seriously with the relevant trade unions. As part of our proposed budget package, we allocated additional funding to provide for the outcome of such a negotiation. The Government needs to act now. I am delighted to hear that officials are engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, and I hope that will lead to serious discussions whereby a sufficient offer is put on the table to the unions for their workers. Families understand the need for strike and they are supporting the workers in these organisations even though they are dreading the thoughts of it because of the hardship it is going to bring. Those families realise that if something is not done to address this issue, the services will not be there for them very soon.
My predecessor, former Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, brought forward a motion on this issue in December 2019. It was his last action before the previous Dáil was dissolved, which happened just after Christmas. His motion addressed the pay disparity between the section 39 organisation and other organisations. Fianna Fáil supported that motion. Why now, when the party is in government and has the ability to address the issue and solve it once and for all, can it not do it? I am begging the Government to ensure this issue is dealt with as soon as possible.
I have stood across the House from the Minister of State more often than I have stood across from any other Minister in my time in the Dáil. While I may have taken issue with figures and things she has said before, I have never had such an issue with something she has said in the Dáil as I have with one of the lines in her contribution today. She said there is a collective responsibility to exhaust all opportunities and avoid further anxiety. She said there has been constructive engagement. She went on to say that the Departments remain available to reconvene with the workers' representatives and trade unions. She said we all know that the solution will only be reached through further dialogue. The Department remains available to reconvene. It has had 21 days' notice of formal strike action and has not responded or reached out to restart formal talks. It had 21 days' notice. The unions have been perfectly clear that they are available to go back to the Workplace Relations Commission at a moment's notice. They would speak from this moment until Tuesday morning, through the weekend, but there has been no formal contact from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth or any Government Department to the unions to restart formal talks. That is inexcusable in response to this dispute.
The real truth as to where the Government lies in this dispute was clear in the Taoiseach's response on Leaders' Questions last week. He said that the 5% offer was the offer on the table and it was a take-it-or-leave-it contribution. There seems to be a bull-headed approach from the Taoiseach, at least, that is leading to industrial action and strike.
That seems to be where we are going and it seems to be driving Government policy and tactics on this issue. Nothing from that Leaders' Questions debate to this moment has dissuaded me that that is the belief. I hosted a briefing yesterday that was very well attended by members of the Opposition. There was only one Member there from a Government party who did not contribute, I will mention Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, but many representatives from the Opposition were there. We heard from Fórsa, SIPTU and the INMO but we also heard from workers in section 39 organisations. They said they would be in tears on the picket line and that they had never felt so much guilt in their lives than they did facing into Tuesday. They said they have been left with no other opportunity. If this goes ahead on Tuesday and those services are not given, we cannot get those services back. This is not like an industrial action in a factory where the action ends and people can catch up and pull extra hours and overtime and all the rest. When those services do not happen on Tuesday, they are gone forever. No-one knows that more than the service users themselves and the workers who look after them. There is, therefore, huge guilt. It is not even like the barristers a couple of weeks ago where they had a day on strike. And what happens in the budget? They are sorted with €9 million at the stroke of a pen. The barristers were sorted after one day of action. This dispute has been going on for years. It has been ramped up, particularly in the last 18 months. The unions and workers have been patient. They have been massively patient and have engaged with the arduous, sometimes tedious, work of trying to negotiate with the Departments. The Minister cannot, therefore, say this is a move or action that has taken the Government or any of the Departments by surprise.
It is disappointing because the Minister of State mentioned in the first page of her speech, and we know this, the number of different areas this dispute around section 39, section 56 and section 10 workers impacts, including health, justice, education, housing services, homeless services, further education and the Department of Social Protection, yet we do not see that level of response from any of the senior Ministers in those Departments at all. It seems the Minister for Health, who writes the biggest cheque for all of this in terms of funding section 39 organisations, has no interest in resolving this dispute. These workers are the backbone of our social care system. They are the ones who keep everything else afloat. It has been an absolute dereliction of duty from the Government that we are going to face this action on Tuesday. We have two full working days, but we have four days between now and then for something to be done. The unions have made it clear that they are available to return to talks straight away all through the weekend, whatever it takes. The ball is firmly in the Government's court, and everyone sees it that way. The service users and their representatives and unions see it that way. We in opposition see it that way. It is unbelievable that in a dispute that impacts the most vulnerable in our society, the Government does not see it this way and that we had a response such as we had from the Taoiseach during Leaders' Questions last week. In the contribution by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, I hope we will hear something that will lead to formal talks and a resolution to this dispute.
What happened on Tuesday in the budget was 90 minutes of two senior Ministers followed up by various announcements from other Ministers with not one mention of section 39, section 56 or section 10 organisations. These workers are beyond the end of their tether. They feel absolutely forced into this. No-one is going into this dispute cheering it as something good. It is going to be tough, hard and painful, but there is no other choice. The ball is firmly in the Government's court. This is a strike of last resort and it is up to the Minister to stop it.
I thank the Minister and Minister of State for being here today. I will preface this by saying I would not normally speak on this kind of industrial relations issue. I believe that industrial relations matters are best dealt with in a negotiation room. They are often best dealt with in advance of strike action, although I fully accept that the right to strike and use of strike action is an important tool for workers. If that is my principle, why am I standing up here today? The reason I am standing today is that there is more than just an industrial relations issue going on here. There would appear to be an attempt by Government - I can only use the word "Government" but I will come back to that word - to save money over time by not restoring the pay to these workers. There is no other way of explaining what is going on here. A very difficult decision was made to reduce pay right across the public sector in 2011. Since then, there has been a process of restoring pay under the Building Momentum agreement and so on. Yet there has not been enough progress for section 38 and section 39 organisations. The Minister is right. It is incredibly complicated. There are so many different forms and sizes of organisations and types of employment. Let us be clear, however. That is not because of the section 38 and section 39 organisations. It is because decades of Irish Governments have relied on voluntary groups to deliver what should be a public service. Nearly €6 billion of the HSE's €23 billion falls into the section 38 and section 39 organisations. Mr. Bernard Gloster from the HSE appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts last week and spoke about these difficulties. These are State services provided by voluntary organisations and the State is the shadow director in all of this because it exclusively funds many of the services.
I will return to the word "Government". Out of everybody who holds ministerial office, both the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, are probably the chief champions to try to resolve this issue. I wish all 15 members of Cabinet were here because this does affect Ministers right across the board. What I would say to the Minister and Minister of State, and particularly the Minister because he is a member of Cabinet, is that I wish to relay the incredibly strong feeling that was relayed at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting on Wednesday, which is that not enough is being done to resolve this. In 2018, the process started around the categorisation. It is still not resolved. For some workers, it is still not resolved. What is most breathtaking is that the 5% offer was made to these workers by people who had had full restoration of their public sector pay. The Minister should think about that. People who have had their full pay restored made an offer of 5% to workers who have not had their public sector pay. It is just breathtaking. What is worse is that even if they had succeeded in getting that 5%, it would permanently hamstring the full sector to the extent that it would have a recruitment challenge going forward. The sector would constantly be competing with the HSE because the pay rate would be below. Therefore, not only would the Government be saving or penny-pinching in one area but it would also be creating a recruitment challenge permanently for those section 38 and section 39 organisations.
There is an opportunity now before the strike for the Government to send a very clear message that this should have been resolved last year but it will be resolved now, and it will be resolved around the table and the Government will put the money forward. I say in the strongest possible terms on behalf of the Fianna Fáil backbenchers, many of whom could not be here because they might be from rural constituencies across the country, although I acknowledge Deputy McGuinness will speak after me, that we want this issue resolved, but not for any political gain. We want it resolved because it is the right thing to do for the people who have had their pay reduced for a long period of time and for the people who need these services. It is the right thing to do for the section 38 and section 39 organisations that are going to need to provide these services, and for who? Not for themselves but for us and the State. They provide these services for us. Both the Minister and Minister of State are strong advocates to try to resolve this issue. They are incredibly strong advocates in this space. For them to continue to do their jobs in order that section 38 workers can do their jobs on behalf of us in this House, we need to resolve the issue as soon as possible. I accept that some progress has been made, but I believe we need to go faster.
This did not happen today or yesterday. This has been going on for successive Governments, which have failed miserably to deal with the issue. It is the price we pay for the status quo and protecting the system.
It is causing worry and anxiety to families and individuals up and down the country. All the voluntary organisations involved, regardless of how they are described under whichever section, give significant commitment and passion to the job they do. It is unequalled anywhere. Any investment into the sector yields at least four or five times its value. That investment in that sector should start with those who are employed. The Minister should remove the difference between the different sections and their pay scales. The Minister should acknowledge the contribution that they make, not in a piecemeal way but upfront and directly, by paying them what they are due. Respect them for the work they do. If the Minister respects them, then he will pay them.
I believe that Ministers, after this debate, should be focused on all the groups that are involved and demanding everyone to sit around that table, every day, all day, until it is resolved, because it is a significant issue for the Government and equally for those who are threatening to strike. They do not want to go on strike but, unfortunately, they are not being recognised by the Government for the work they do. The Minister is causing consternation and disruption of the services at a time when it is absolutely not needed. There is money in the coffers of the State to settle it and to once and for all show respect to those workers and bring them on par, and to take away the pressure from those who are managing within all of these sections. That includes the pressure of trying to keep staff who want to stay with the organisations, but because of the cost-of-living issues and many other issues in their lives have to try to get a better-paid job. I suggest that many would stay in their employment if only they had the right terms and conditions.
It is true to say that those who lobby the hardest, the creaking door, get the attention. I believe we have to insist on the focus on a group that is dedicated to its work and does not creak loudly often, and it should have done so. With that in mind, I again emphasise the need for the Minister to get around that table today, tomorrow and for as long as it takes.
It is interesting to look at how the State interacts with all these agencies. Those players in the State, within the Civil Service and indeed the political elite, are quite happy to see all these workers work all the hours that God will send them because they like doing what they do and are passionate about their work. That is how the Government gets away with not paying them, but it is not good enough anymore. Every Member of this House, Government or Opposition, will support what is being said here today. We need to emphasise to both the Civil Service which deals with it and the politicians who are meant to give leadership in this area that they need to resolve it now and that the strike should not take place next Tuesday.
The other interesting aspect of this is that the example could be given of the Covid payments. They were a good news story and everyone was going to get paid. What happened? Many people who expected to get paid were not paid at all. That is a shame. Shame on the State for not having it planned properly, for not having sufficient funds in place and now, at this late stage, for ignoring the pleas from those who have not been paid to be paid. It is not good enough for the State to turn a deaf ear to them or any group. It is not right and it is not good governance either. If good governance is to play any role in this, it means that the employers, the Government and all involved should be around the table immediately.
I fully respect all the work that these organisations do. It is a disgrace and a shame that they are having to threaten strike action to achieve what they want. It is also taking substantial resources away from the front line and putting them to work to try to fill the gaps that might be created should the strike go ahead. It is the most appalling example of bad management I have seen in a long time. It has been caused by one government after another being willing to turn that blind eye to what was going on. I am delighted that the organisations are now standing in solidarity with them, like we are today, and saying to the Government to pay up and show them respect, and that they will get on with the work.
I welcome the National Federation of Voluntary Bodies, the workers in the Gallery and those who are looking in. Sometimes I think I live in a parallel universe. I was sitting here listening to Deputies McGuinness and McAuliffe, who have stated, and I am paraphrasing, that it has not caught up on them, they are not surprised that people are taking this action and it is disgraceful - all these lovely words. They also talked about the strong will of the parliamentary party in Fianna Fáil. Did they put forward a motion in the parliamentary party to the effect that they would not support the budget that they supported last night, which did not mention a single word about supporting the workers of section 39----
That is what Parliament is for.
----section 56 and section 10 organisations?
That is what Parliament is for.
Not once was it mentioned.
I will not take lectures from Deputy Donnelly.
I did not interrupt Deputy McGuinness. Last week and over the last couple of years since I have been in this Chamber, I, like many others, have raised the issue of section 39, section 56 and section 10 organisations. We have raised it for years, on occasion after occasion. We met the workers and the unions yesterday in the audiovisual room in Leinster House and they were angry that there was zero provision in this budget, which Deputies McGuinness and McAuliffe backed, to address pay restoration for these workers. Not a single member of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the Green Party bothered to turn up to hear from them yesterday. They would have seen that they were resolute in their determination to stand strong for pay restoration and with their clients to defend the work that they do and demand that they are respected as the highly trained and experienced workers that they are. Could I correct the record? One did turn up, as has been mentioned earlier. He arrived, went to the back of the room, probably realised he was at the wrong meeting, and swiftly left.
Deputy Donnelly does not know that.
That is shocking.
That is shocking.
All I can say is that I was at the meeting.
Is this about scoring points or supporting people?
Deputies McAuliffe and McGuinness were not there.
Is this about scoring points or supporting people?
Deputy McAuliffe was not there.
(Interruptions).
Deputy Donnelly needs to be able to speak without interruption.
He should tell the truth.
There is no doubt that people will ask why the workers are on strike. Why would people who are looking after people who are so vulnerable withdraw their labour? It is precisely because they care so deeply about the people whom they care for, including those in drug services, disability services, homelessness services and section 56 organisations, whom I have worked with previously; those who care for those in care; and the most vulnerable children in the State. In 2008, these workers took the hit for the bankers and bondholders that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party also backed. They expected rightly that when the time came, they would get their pay restored, would be treated like the public sector workers who also rightly got their pay restored and would be put on a par to where they were prior to 2008.
It is crazy that if this situation is not resolved and the workers do not get pay parity, these services could potentially close down. Then what would happen? The State would have to step in. What will happen when the State steps in? It will use public sector workers who have got their pay restoration to take over and provide these services for the most vulnerable. It is beyond credulity that we are now faced with a situation where workers have to go on strike next week when we know there is a solution.
We know there will be a solution to this. It should not be that the workers and the projects they are involved in are haemorrhaging staff. They have told us that time and again, but the Government has not listened. If it listened to the reason they are haemorrhaging staff, we would not in the position where the Minister of State is in the Chamber and people will be terrified this weekend as to what services they will get. I know staff will do their best and will look after basic services, but there are other things people need to help them get through the day that will not be there.
I plead with the Minister of State not to let this go to the wire. Let us deal with it over the weekend so that it is resolved by Monday and people will get the respect they deserve.
I fully recognise the passion and bite in this debate are a reflection of the importance of the issue. At this point, however, I cannot for the life of me say I have witnessed an urgency in addressing this most important issue.
The Minister of State referred to the potential for industrial action. I wonder whether that is an insight we do not have. When I talked and listened to union representatives, whether they are from SIPTU, the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, or Fórsa, they had not heard from the State on this issue. Given she referenced the potential for industrial action, I hope to God the Minister of State does not have much in her diary this weekend and somebody is standing by a table waiting, and I hope it does not go down to the wire, for some form of intervention. In the absence of that, the reality of industrial action on Tuesday will have far-reaching consequences for communities, individuals and people who cannot face what is occurring. The fault for that lies with successive governments. That has to be to the fore of this.
Nobody knows more the impact this will have on service users than those who provide the care for them day in, day out. This has gone on for 13 years. During my time as a Member of the Dáil since 2020, probably the most meetings I have had with people has concerned this issue. We have met over Zoom, they have come to my office, they have protested, and they brought me to visit the centres, all in recognition of the importance of the work we believe we know but cannot truly know until we go in and stare in the whites of the eyes of the service users and see the contribution made by those who deal with them day in, day out. That is why I know full well there will be tears on that picket line on Tuesday. There will be tears on the picket line for as long as this happens because nobody wants this to come to a head, as it seems it will on Tuesday. I hope that we intervene.
This has been going on for 13 years because the cuts were initiated in 2010. In 2018, a 5% increase was offered with an offer of pay parity with HSE workers over a five-year period. That has not materialised. This comes down to a simple principle, namely, parity. It is parity for workers who believe that they do just as important and vital a job as those who are employed by the State, even though they are section 39 workers, as they are also paid by the State.
I cannot help but give voice to some of what will be lost in my community and constituency when this happens on Tuesday. I will go through the list of organisations. The Daughters of Charity child and family resource centre is on Henrietta Street. A couple of weeks ago, I had the great pleasure of speaking at the 100-year anniversary of their early learning programme there. We walked in, were brought around the centre, and we met the workers and service users. I was brought to the crèche area where there was a line-up of identical little coats for the children to ensure that no child who comes into that centre is at the loss of a coat, because it is understood that child poverty and poverty in general are measured by an absence and a want. The centre ensures that no child who comes there is devoid of that warm coat. It has a therapeutic room just so a child can go in and be able to avail of peace and quiet. The centre's staff talked about some of its initiatives. One of the workers there talked to me about the importance of those coats because they try as best they can to bring the children outside, as they often come from overcrowded conditions in complexes that do not often have access to an outdoor space. That will be removed on Tuesday because of what I believe to be an absence of urgency, fairness and a belief in parity and that people doing the same job should be paid the same. It is unfathomable to me.
I see the family resource centres that operate all over the country will be forced to remove their labour on Tuesday. I think of the Hill Street Family Resource Centre in the area where I live and about the best of the north inner city. The well-known percentage is that 40% of families and people who live there were born outside the area. When I go to the Hill Street Family Resource Centre I see all the beauty of that contained there. People from all over the world who have come and found their home in the north inner city go there. They are met with a cup of tea, they get language supports, and it becomes the place where their confidence is built up and they become part of the community. Volunteers and people who are now employed at the centre started there when they found a place of peace and welcome there 20 years ago. That will be removed. Every single day that this strike goes on will have impacts.
I hope to God the diaries of the Minister and Minister of State are clear this weekend. It should never have been allowed to get to this point but we need urgent intervention to get people around a table and to offer parity. The absence of parity is cruel. When we talk about structural and State-led violence, what more can I say about this than community and voluntary workers who work with some of our most vulnerable at-risk groups across a plethora of different societal intervention spaces are being forced, after 13 years of activism, to remove their labour? It is unfathomable to me that this has been allowed happen.
I hope the Cabinet colleagues of the Minister and Minister of State have not simply left them holding the ball on this one. I cannot for the life of me understand why other Ministers are not present. Where is the Minister for Health on this? His absence is very pronounced and felt because some of the organisations he is supposed to oversee will feel this. I strongly urge the Ministers to keep a long table and a place for people to sit. Those representative organisations who have been crying out for the Ministers to meet them should receive a phone call at some point, hopefully tonight, and this can be addressed over the weekend.
Like previous speakers, I can speak for myself and other backbenchers in that I have spoken several times about section 39 and section 56 organisations. This has not happened overnight. From speaking to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, I know that they are very aware of this and they want to find a solution. We have to find a solution. Like previous speakers, I have met several section 39 organisations in the past few months. I have visited their centres and services. I see the role they play for people with disabilities, older people, and in the delivery of the range of health and social care services in the community, including residential and day care services.
This is about community and the work that section 39 organisations do in the community. There is an anger out there. I submitted a Topical Issue on section 39 agencies that has been selected for tonight. Everybody I have spoken to is angry. They do not want to strike. The issue is, when they strike, what will happen to users of the service. It is important. I welcome the Minister of State's comment that talks are going on with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. That is something we need to address. However, I believe the Government will do what it has to do. We do not want to be in this situation with our most vulnerable. The most vulnerable people in our community will be affected if there is a strike on 17 October.
Section 39 workers do not want to strike. I know they do not. I have a fear that we will not get something done soon. I understand that we are where we are today. I also understand that opposition can be everything to everyone. I have learned that since I was elected to the House.
When someone is in opposition, he or she can commit to everything. There is no question about it. It does not matter what anyone wants, he or she can commit to it. However, at the end of the day, we have had a stable Government. We put up a budget that is very fair.
This issue definitely needs to be addressed. I will give an example of one case that I am working on at the moment. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte has done her best on this and I thank her for it. There are loads of centres in Carlow but I will not mention all of them because I will bring it up later as a Topical Issue. I have a case in Carlow with a lovely service provider and a young man who has been looked after by his mam and dad for his whole life. He has a lot of issues because he has gotten older and his parents have gotten older so they could no longer mind him. We had to get him into a residential centre and the parents were devastated. We have to appreciate the work the families put in and give to the community that is forgotten. Every one of the families I know deserves an award. They are absolutely excellent. Under section 39, the centre could not get staff. As we know, there are huge recruitment and retention issues. We got money for the man to go into residential care but there were no staff to look after him. Because of that, the poor chap is still at home. The money is there for the residential home but because there are no staff, we cannot get him into that residential home. That is an absolute nightmare. It is unfair on the family, and unfair on the man himself. These are the issues I face daily in my own area. I know the money is there so I feel that we as a Government, and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, know that this strike just cannot go ahead. We cannot have the most vulnerable people in our community left like this. Section 39 providers have no other choice. We need to find a resolution. As for our workers and the work they have done, I want to compliment every worker that works in my own area and across the country. They go above the call of duty. They are absolutely excellent and we need to make sure, as the old saying goes, that for a proper day's work there is proper pay. We need to make sure there is proper pay, proper respect and that we do our best to make sure there is no strike on Tuesday.
I welcome our guests here today and I thank them for what they do. I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the essential section 39 and section 56 workers who are at the coalface of community and voluntary services every day providing essential care and support to some of our most vulnerable citizens. These workers have not had a meaningful pay rise in 15 years. That is 15 budgets where successive Fianna Fáil, Green Party and Fine Gael governments failed to recognise the value of these people and their work by failing to adequately fund section 39 agencies. These agencies have highly skilled and highly qualified people who are still being paid at 2008 wage levels while trying to pay bills and survive a cost-of-living crisis in 2023. The Minister would not do it and I would not do it, and I do not see why they have to do it. Identical jobs in other arenas such as the HSE attract much higher pay rates. I have heard from agencies such as Cheshire Ireland, which cares for our elderly loved ones, and other nursing home advocates such as the Alliance detail their constant struggle to recruit and retain their staff simply because those staff can get more money for doing the same job in other areas. The Minister knows this and I know this. We all know why this is happening. This is happening because of the pay disparity. In my area, there are people from County Kildare who work in this sector and still have not gotten a Covid-19 bonus. They ring my office and ask why they got no Covid-19 bonus. Are they not valued the same way as others are? They should be and this needs to be looked at.
Sinn Féin has constantly called on the Government for full pay restoration for all section 39 workers. That call has yet again fallen on deaf ears. These workers are at the end of their patience. They have exhausted every other available avenue before coming to this juncture with the Government, again, putting insurmountable obstacles in their way. The Minister recently said that section 39 workers' pay restoration must be a priority. That begs the question, "whose priority?", because the Minister is not prioritising it. It is clearly not this Government's priority when industrial action is the final resort for workers who are only seeking pay justice and fairness. It is an insult to leave these workers waiting. Pay restoration and pay parity for all section 39 workers is the only action. Anything else is simply not good enough. These people feel they have no option but to withdraw their labour. What will the Minister do before Tuesday? These services are vital. We all know how vital they are and the extent of the work these people do for little or no restoration and pay. Where is the urgency? I too want to know where the Minister for Health is.
Deputy Murnane O'Connor said that when we are in opposition, we can commit to everything. When Sinn Féin commits, we actually mean it.
It is very obvious that we should not be in this position. It should not have come to this. These workers provide a vital service in our community, yet they have to potentially go on strike on Tuesday. That is embarrassing. There is no disrespect to the Minister and to the Minister of State personally, but it is embarrassing. This country is awash with money and for the money they are looking for and for pay parity relative to their colleagues, it is embarrassing. Hopefully, the Government will address this issue and pay these workers what they deserve. For example, Deputies are paid very well but we could not a situation where one Deputy was paid less than others. We would be the first ones to give out and we are paid very well, yet we have health service workers are in this situation. That is completely unacceptable.
Section 39 workers - I was at one stage - are paid 10% less than their colleagues so they have lesser terms and conditions. It is just not acceptable. We can have all the platitudes we want but we need to address this issue to prevent a strike. The only thing that will prevent a strike is if the workers are finally acknowledged and paid what they deserve. This has been going on for far too long at 13 years and more. This is a legacy from the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, years, and austerity that has left a bitter taste with a lot of workers such as teachers, nurses and section 56 and section 39 workers. This is a legacy issue and a throwback but it needs to be resolved very quickly.
I can never understand why these artificial tiers are put in place regarding people's pay, especially in the public sector. I just do not get it. Why would we want to pay somebody 20% or 10% less than another person who is doing the exact same job? Who would make that kind of stuff up? Maybe this can happen in the private sector where it is a race to the bottom and people are trying to profiteer. We are talking about public sector workers generally who do work the vast majority of people will not do; let us be honest. It is a really important job but we pay them less. It is absolutely ridiculous. Hopefully, this can be resolved so that workers do not have to go out on strike on Tuesday. I am sure it is the last place they want to be. They want to do their vital jobs but if they need to go out on strike, they will get all of our support and our solidarity. They will get a huge amount of public support as the public is on their side. They know an injustice when they see it. I hope the Minister and Minister of State will do the right thing and pay these workers what they deserve.
Interestingly, I received an email in the past few days from the National Women's Council which will have a seminar next week on considering the inclusion of the value of care in the Constitution.
Certainly, it is something I would support. I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health, where I would have mentioned this previously, as well as at public meetings, that I am very impressed with the way Scotland handles its care system traditionally. It seems to have a healthcare system that attempts to embrace the individual and embrace communities, and without wishing to diminish the work that is done by the healthcare sector here, we are still suffering from a historical hangover that likes to keep the community and individuals at a distance from the institutions and from the State when it comes to healthcare. We do it in education as well. The State farms out a lot of services rather than taking those services on board itself and embracing all that is involved in them.
For the public who are watching, of course, section 39 is a fairly nebulous term. It does not really mean an awful lot. It is worth repeating that when we talk about section 39, we talk about those organisations that are funded by the HSE, that reach into every community in the country and that provide essential health and social care services to people with disabilities and to the most vulnerable in communities in towns, villages and parishes throughout the country, including residential, day and ancillary services for people with disabilities, mental health services, palliative care services, addiction services and a myriad of other health services and social care services that are provided in the community. Every constituency, including my own, Dublin South-West, has a myriad of these community services. At some stage, some of these section 39 or section 56 organisations may have been voluntary associations or associations connected with care and services that had been provided traditionally or historically by religious orders or religious institutions going back many decades and they were transformed into voluntary organisations.
The mind boggles as to why it has taken so long for the rubber to hit the road on this issue. The bottom line is the State accepts that the ability of these organisations to pay their staff is highly dependent on the money the State gives to these organisations, and if all these section 39 organisations were unable to deliver the agreed level of service agreed with the HSE and with the State, the HSE, Tusla and other organisations would have to step in to provide and manage these services. Can we imagine such a scenario? If the HSE and Tusla had to employ the kinds of professionals and care workers who are working for the section 39 and section 56 organisations and provide those services themselves, they would. Mr. Bernard Gloster, CEO of the HSE, in response to a question from me in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health, of which I am a member, said simply that the HSE pays more. That is why, of course, the HSE is the chief poacher of staff from many of these section 39 organisations. That situation is so obvious. It is so evident. It has been allowed to continue probably because successive administrations have believed they could do it, that the section 39 organisations would not withdraw cover, just as nurses and doctors in particular acute hospitals or in acute care centres may threaten to strike but, when push comes to shove, they do not deliver on it because they know of the consequences.
I am not aware of any emergency provision that has been put in place by anybody for next Tuesday - maybe it has been spoken of here - if this were to come to pass. Equally, as a result of a very robust, strong and supportive conversation we had at our own parliamentary party last night, which is not the first conversation we have had, and although I am not a Minister and I am not in a position to make these decisions, it is obvious that strike action next Tuesday simply cannot happen and the Government must move every mountain at its disposal to ensure it does not happen. When I say that strike action cannot happen, I do not want anybody in the Gallery to misinterpret me as saying people should not take strike action next week. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is it has to be dealt with, it has to be resolved, or some kind of invitation or meaningful gesture that gives confidence to that sector to give a second thought to its action next Tuesday needs to be taken. That is certainly the thrust of what my colleagues feel. It has to be done.
Previous speakers have already adverted to the fact that, very reluctantly, these organisations have taken this decision in relation to strike action. I, along with members of the Opposition who represent my constituency as well as a group called WALK, was at a public meeting in the Red Rua theatre in Tallaght a few weeks ago which was very well attended. The section 39 piece featured very prominently in the discussion. The esteem in which the people who work for these section 39 organisations are held by parents, managers of the organisations themselves and the individuals who are on the receiving end of their great care and attention was palpable. It is simply a service the State has been taking for granted for too long and that simply cannot continue.
If ever there was a cliff edge in society, this is a care cliff edge we are talking about. It is an issue that is concentrating the minds of everybody on this side of the House and concentrating and focusing those minds very determinedly. That is certainly my impression of my parliamentary party meeting last night.
I assure those in my constituency who work for section 39 organisations that I, as their representative, and my colleagues are determined to do whatever we can to ensure this is resolved. According to a ministerial response we had last night, some section 39 organisations are in a position to remunerate their employees better than others. The Minister and the Minister of State will have reflected that in their contributions as well. Obviously, we are not talking about those organisations. We are talking about the organisations which are facing very significant challenges. The alternative clearly is that the State, through the HSE or Tusla, would have to provide those services and, if they did, they would have to pay the going rate to employ people to do those jobs.
Deputy Cronin is sharing time with Deputy Ó Murchú.
I thank an Teachta Ó Murchú for sharing his time with me.
I am extremely concerned about all our section 39 and section 56 workers, such as all those working in the Irish Wheelchair Association in north Kildare and Dara Community Living in north Kildare. I welcome the disability federation, the federation of voluntary service providers, and the service users, or, as I like to call them, the citizens of the State, to the Gallery here today.
I would like to give a special welcome to Ms Carol O'Donnell, who is the CEO of Dara Community Living, to the Gallery. Dara Community Living provides the opportunity for people with intellectual disabilities to live in the community. It also provides respite to families with family members with intellectual disabilities. Dara is a place I know well. We value it very highly in our constituency and in our community. I worked there and I know what the workers do, day in, day out. I would like to give a shoutout to the section 39 workers: Mr. Liam Carthy, whom I met there just last week, Ms Michelle Farrelly, Ms Sinéad O'Connor, Ms Fidelma Fitzsimons, and Ms Lorraine and Katie O'Dwyer, to mention just a few. They are people I worked closely with.
There are many others working there and they are an absolute treasure to us in north Kildare. The good work they do is untold. They represent such good. I want to pay special tribute to them in the Dáil today and give them a shout out because it is the least they deserve.
They were there on the front line during Covid when the rest of us were able to work from home and we did not know what we were facing. It is critical that they now have their work recognised in good pay and conditions. Section 39 workers like those in Dara show up for work every day. They are the workers people like our citizens in the Gallery rely on to live their best lives. They make a profound difference to people’s lives every day. There are few enough of us who can say that about the work we do but that is true of the section 39 workers. They give people dignity to live their best lives in the community. They do not want to go on strike. I am extremely anxious that they be valued by actions and not just words and that their pay be protected, given the huge difference they make to people’s lives every day. The Minister of State got a taste of that when she came to the official reopening of the new premises in Main Street in Celbridge. I listened to the start of her speech from my office. There is no point in giving a speech like that because she is in government. This threatened strike is now at her door. An Teachta Paul Donnelly said earlier that he thought he was living in a parallel universe when he was listening to the speakers. I have noticed there are a lot of Fianna Fáil speakers here today. I hope that the Minister of State does have something up her sleeve. I think it is disingenuous to make the best of our workers wait. It is at her door and she must act.
I also welcome the National Federation of Voluntary Service Providers and those citizens who use the services here today. I think we all accept on some level that it is a complete disaster that they had to come here and we have to have this conversation. We have dealt with a budget that did not put anything aside to deal with this issue. We talk about section 39 and section 56 workers. The Irish Wheelchair Association does huge, visible work in my constituency and many people avail of their service in the town of Dundalk. Many of these organisations were set up because the State failed to deliver certain services and then service level agreements or whatever were entered into. It makes no sense that the likes of the HSE is poaching people on the basis of higher pay. In a cost-of-living crisis you cannot blame people for taking jobs but we have now left people with no choice but to strike. I know it will be very difficult for these people. The reason they have not shouted quicker or louder is because these are people who really care about the vital work they do whether it is in homeless services, disability services or for the most vulnerable. The Minister of State spoke about engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. That has to be real. I am always afraid when I hear about the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform; that is where issues sometimes go to die and that cannot be the case here. They are looking after the people who need those added resources and we need to look after them. We cannot go through this any longer.
This is my 50th time since being elected to stand here and discuss the disability sector. Section 39 organisations, as the Minister of State is only too well aware, are very close to my heart. I also welcome the service providers and some of their clients who are with them today in the Gallery.
The Minister of State has been to the section 39 organisations in my constituency. Wexford probably has the highest concentration of service providers as well as service users in the country, from Windmill Therapeutic, Cumas, Reach Ability, St. Aidan's and the Wexford Wheelchair Association and there are more. The Minister of State has been to visit them and has seen what they do. I have been to meetings called by service providers on the basis that they are haemorrhaging staff because the pay disparity is €4.20 an hour. No one can blame the existing section 39 workers for wanting to better themselves. It causes them physical and emotional pain to leave the service providers and move to the HSE such is their devotion to those to whom they provide care. I see it first hand. I interact so much with the families in my community who use these services. They are petrified that they will not have a day’s service next week. Many of the families we are talking about are parents in the 70 to 85 years bracket. They are barely able to manage the clientele that the section 39 services provide for at home. These are their loved ones but they find it very difficult in many circumstances. Nor are homecare support packages available. We have 564 waiting in Wexford. This issue is paramount. I know the Minister of State understands. I am not going to patronise her and say that she does not. What I do not understand is that although she is a strong advocate for the sector she has not taken command of the civil servants who are not backing this. As her own colleagues have said, this did not begin today or yesterday; it is going on for years. I do not stand here and relish the fact that the Minister of State’s own colleagues and backbenchers are standing as if they are in opposition. We are united here entirely as elected representatives on what needs to happen. It is not just because we want section 39 workers to be better off but because we want to see the families and service users in a position where they are not so vulnerable that they do not have a service available to them.
The Regional Group insisted that this come to the floor for debate. We also put it in our budget proposal that there would be pay parity for section 39 workers. This has gone on far too long. As a State, we need to plan. We cannot allow this to fester. It is not just about the strike. In Wexford, we have had a reduction in beds. We are actually going backwards. Some service providers provide residential placements as well as day services. In 2021, residential beds went from 67 and then 70 in 2022 back to 56 in 2023. I say to the Minister and the Minister of State that this needs to be addressed. We need planning for the future.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on what is a very emotive issue for everyone in the House. I welcome the people in the Gallery. On a normal day they have other things to do to look after the work and the services they are providing.
Everyone knows that if we do not pay our workers properly they will go where they will get better pay for doing the same work. That is the kernel of the problem but it has gone way beyond that because it is now a service provision issue. Services have been closing over the past six or eight months on the basis that we cannot get staff. We cannot get homecare workers because they have gone to the HSE. They are the facts. In the constituency which the Minister of State and I represent, there is Ability West and the Irish Wheelchair Association; Brooklodge day centre which contacted me the other day; and the Brothers of Charity. We have all of these and more. Then the parents of people who need the services are ringing me. The other day a woman rang me. I asked her what age her son was and she told me he was 42. The mother was 85 years of age. She is worried about what her son will be doing next Tuesday. She has spent 41 years looking after her son and now, at 85 years of age, she is doubly concerned about his future. A woman was on to me this evening who has an adopted daughter aged 31. What will happen her? These people are not ringing because we are politicians. They are upset. They are breaking down on the phone. When we talk about negotiations about wages there is a game that goes on.
I saw it happen with the school secretaries - it was played out again and again. The Department of Education said it was the responsibility of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It does not matter. This evening, Government Deputies have put it squarely in the Government's hands that this needs to be solved before Tuesday. The Minister for Finance was right, and I agreed with him when we met in respect of our budgetary submission. He said it has gone way beyond a pay issue. To make an offer or try to barter is not what this is about; it is about a service. We need to give pay parity - full stop - in order that equal services can be provided.
I can see HIQA closing a hell of a lot more services in the next few months unless we cop on to what is happening because we do not have the staff to run those services. We can talk about all the money in budgets, what we will invest in services and all the infrastructure that will be put in place in respect of disability, but if we do not have the staff to run the services, we will be going nowhere. As a member of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters, I plead with the Government. We have heard over the past three years about the torment, anxiety and stress that people in that sector go through. Here we are adding more stress, worry and anxiety for families. It is not right. It should never happen. I do not blame this Government in particular; I blame successive Governments. The ball is firmly the Government's court. Its backbenchers have said that.
I welcome former Senator, John Dolan, from the Disability Federation of Ireland, who is in the Gallery. This is serious. Everybody is serious about it. I plead with the Government to work over the weekend and get it right for Tuesday.
I thank the service providers and representatives for coming here today. I will speak about what section 39 workers in County Limerick mean to me. The father of the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, was a founding member of St. Joseph's Foundation in Charleville. We are very fortunate to have access to the St. Joseph's Foundation in Granagh, where I am from. It has been there for many years. It now also has an equestrian therapy centre. On 1 October, singer-songwriter Brian Kennedy will come to St. Joseph's, as he does every year. He will perform there as part of the Liam O'Connor Show. One of the songs that he sings every time he comes there is "Life, Love and Happiness". These people, and all the section 39 workers, give life, love and happiness to everyone who uses their services. I hope the Government can see how important they are to us.
Enable Ireland, the Irish Wheelchair Association and Rathfredagh Cheshire Home all offer fantastic services in County Limerick. All they are looking for is pay parity. They are paid 9.5% less than their counterparts in the HSE, who do the same job as them. In 2010, workers took a pay cut because there was a financial crisis. Section 38 and 39 workers took a pay cut; section 38 workers had it reversed after some time but the Government left section 39 workers behind. These are the same people with whom I am involved all year round doing fundraisers. The welcome we get when we go to their centres is uplifting, as is the happiness that meets you at the door thanks to what these people do. They not only work, they go above and beyond and create a family structure and environment for which they do not get any recognition. The Government and Opposition Deputies who are present in the House all agree that they should get pay parity. For people who think they want to strike for more money, they do not. They want to make sure they get the same pay as the people in the HSE who do the same work as them. It is the same as the smaller private nursing homes, the staff of which have also been up here. What has the HSE been guilty of? It allowed agencies to bring people in and train them up for six months. After that, the HSE poaches them and gives them the section 38 wage. It does not want to bring section 39 workers up to the relevant pay grade because it will not be able to get them to work for it because there is no place to work like the organisations for which they work; it is a family.
If something is not done by Tuesday, day services for adults with intellectual disabilities will close, as will most of the residential sites for adults and children with intellectual disabilities. There will be huge reductions in services provided by disability teams for children with intellectual disabilities. This will increase waiting lists and put additional stress on families. In addition, it will stop students in training from graduating because they will not be able to get placements. None of those people want to strike. This did not happen yesterday or 12 months ago. They have been looking for pay parity since 2010 and recognition for the work they do, and they even go above and beyond.
The Minister was there the other night when people from Cliona's Foundation came to the House and heard from them about the work it does. I hold all of these people on the same level as everyone the Minister heard in that room. There were tears in his eyes when they spoke the other night, when Cliona's parents spoke about her. There was not a dry eye in that room. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for organising such an event. The same thing is happening in this case. We cannot allow these people to go on strike on Tuesday. It will not be their fault; it will be the Government's fault if it happens. With a heavy heart, I ask the Minister to get this sorted before Tuesday and to give these people the recognition they deserve. They go above and beyond what any other workers would do. I thank them from the bottom of my heart for what they do. I ask the Minister to please get this sorted before Tuesday and give these people the pay parity they so richly deserve.
I welcome those in the Gallery who are here to listen to this debate. Deputy Joan Collins was due to speak this evening as well but, unfortunately, she had a doctor's appointment so she had to leave.
As we all know, sadly, we are facing into a strike next week by organisations that do not want to put the people they assist at risk, who provide vital services for many of the most vulnerable people in our society. They have been forced into this position by a Government that refuses to recognise the value of the services they provide. I must ask why the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is not here. The Minister and Minister of State who are present cannot facilitate pay restoration on their own.
It is only the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, and his Department that can sign off on this. It shows what his Department thinks that he would not even bother to be here for this debate.
I mentioned organisations like the Irish Wheelchair Association, which I met last Monday in Donegal to hear of the impact the strike will have. There were many service users in attendance who spoke highly of the support they were getting and who were 100% behind the staff in their strike action. To hear the respect that vulnerable service users had for the staff was humbling and showed the impact that the strike would have on them, but their support was total. It also showed that the amount of respect the Government would lose among the most vulnerable people would be shocking.
These agencies are State funded to provide services that the State has declined or failed to provide, yet the State has cut the funding to them and they have not seen pay restoration since the crash, which was over 12 years ago. These workers are on lesser terms and conditions than their HSE counterparts. According to some organisations, the pay differential is as much as 20%. That is not even to mention that they have no pension entitlements either. This has led to a staff turnover rate of approximately 30% per year, which basically means there is a completely new workforce in place every three years. The loss of knowledge is shocking. How can any organisation work like that?
It is amazing that, in 2023, we are still talking about the effects of the bailout on every part of our society. The carer’s allowance has not been increased since 2008, yet carers were only looking for pay restoration in the budget. Criminal barristers only received partial restoration in this budget of the cuts suffered before the bailout. The pay issue that staff of section 39, 56 and 10 organisations are going on strike over next week dates back to the bailout. Housing was attacked by the troika, and we are still living with that. Thousands of children are homeless because of the bailout and there is no sign of even an attempt to resolve the issue. Maybe if service users of section 39, 56 and 10 organisations were wealthy or educated in the right schools, this matter would have been sorted by now. Sadly, that is the reality as I see it.
The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform can do the right thing and resolve this strike before it happens. That is not too much to ask. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, should be here listening to the views of Deputies.
First of all, I recognise the presence of many staff members of section 56 and 39 organisations in the Public Gallery. I also recognise that they have been joined by many service users, who will be impacted by industrial action, and their family members. I know that the threat of industrial action is not one that is made lightly by any of these incredibly dedicated staff members.
The sustainability and stability of the health and social care sectors are a key concern for the Government. We recognise that the ability of voluntary organisations to pay their staff is highly dependent on State funding. Section 39 organisations have seen overall disability funding increase from €531 million in 2018 to approximately €707 million in 2023, or by approximately 33%. Section 56 bodies have seen funding increases from €138 million in 2014 to €206 million last year, or by nearly 50%. These services have grown and, as we all know, demand for them has grown significantly as well.
As outlined in July, my Department and the Department of Health made a combined offer of a 5% pay funding increase to employer bodies. This offer was in line with those accepted by community and voluntary staff in other sectors. The offer to workers in this sector would have been effective from November 2023, with 3% of that backdated to April. That combined offer was not accepted by the trade union representatives and unions representing some section 39 and 56 workers announced that their members in a selection of employer organisations would take indefinite strike action.
While the Government has engaged in a process through the Workplace Relations Commission, it is worth noting that section 39 and section 56 organisations are privately owned and operated and the terms and conditions of employment for their staff are ultimately between the employer and the employee. Similar considerations arise in respect of other sectors across government, adding to the complexity in seeking to resolve matters in one specific sector.
All involved parties, including the Government, want to see a meaningful resolution that improves sustainability and the ability of these vital organisations to recruit and retain staff actively. The Government is working with Tusla and the HSE, which are the relevant agencies and are engaged in contingency planning with the employer organisations that will be affected by industrial action so that any impact on those who depend on these essential services can be managed to the greatest extent possible.
Next week, we will face a strike. I recognise that, if it goes ahead, it will impact on people with disabilities, their loved ones, families seeking support in some of the most challenged communities across our country, and children in need of a safe place to stay. Let me be very clear – the Government wants to avoid this industrial action. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, our departmental officials and I are working hard to avoid it. The unions have made it clear that a meaningful offer is what is required. That is what is being worked on across the Government. The Government is the funder, which puts a responsibility on us to be part of the solution and to address the matter at hand. Over the summer, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform worked with us on developing an offer and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, understands the points at the core of the industrial action. Through the combined work of our Departments, and with the co-operation of the employers and unions, we look forward to arriving at a potential solution as soon as possible. That solution needs to be a long-term one that resolves an inequity that, as many Deputies have pointed out, is over a decade old. Sticking plasters have been put in place to try to resolve this disparity in the past, but they have not worked and that approach cannot happen again. We need something that will work for the long term.
As the Minister of State pointed out, the Department acknowledges the important role that these organisations and their workers play in our health and social care services. This work is essential in providing services to many families and vulnerable people in society. In our Department, we are ready to support, to talk and to engage. We encourage the unions to return to the WRC process – and we would welcome the presence of employers there – with a view to avoiding industrial action and the negative impacts that it would have on the people and families using these services.
I recognise that resolving this dispute and, more fundamentally, addressing the key recruitment and retention challenges that many Deputies have spoken to and that are being experienced within the community and voluntary sector will involve additional investment in the sector. Our Department stands ready to play our role in resolving this issue.
That concludes our debate. We thank all those who have contributed as well as those who have attended in the Public Gallery.