Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate – Dáil Éireann (33rd Dáil) – Tuesday, 17 Oct 2023

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Park-and-Ride Facilities

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Transport for being here tonight to answer this question. He will be familiar with the N3 route I am talking about. Unfortunately, the motorway takes a sudden stop at Whitegate and we have a truncated version of that N3 all the way to Cavan town. I am incredibly proud and supportive of the work the road section of Cavan County Council is doing to develop that into a motorway through County Cavan, as we deserve and as County Meath has all the way down from Dublin into Cavan town.

What I am here to ask the Minister of State about tonight, however, is park-and-ride facilities. I have gone to see some of the facilities that are along the N3, particularly in our neighbours in County Meath. There is a fine example of exactly what I am talking about at Garlow Cross. We are a Government that is trying to promote public transport. We are a Government that is trying to promote care for our environment and our planet. To do that, we have to provide the facilities so that people can use public transport to our capital city. As the Minister of State will be aware, there are quite a lot of commuters from Cavan travelling daily to Dublin.

Specifically, I want to highlight Whitegate with the Minister of State tonight. Whitegate is on the eastern part of the county, just before the Meath border. At present, it is chaotic, dangerous and very unsafe, both for commuters and for those trying to park and ride because there is no dedicated facility for that. It is not equipped to do it for the number of people using it. Each morning when I am driving up to the Dáil, I say to myself there will be an accident because cars are so desperate to find a space, they are parking on the bus stop, which is to facilitate people embarking on and disembarking from public transport. I would like the Minister of State to speak to that.

Cavan County Council is engaging with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Bus Éireann. Feasibility studies and feasibility and option reports have been completed or are under way with those organisations to try and put in place a vision and a plan and give Cavan County Council the funding to enable it to deliver a proper park-and-ride facility that would be well utilised, I can tell the Minister of State, by people from all over the east of the county, taking in Munterconnaught, Maghera, Mullagh and Carrigabruse. At present, people are afraid to use it because it is so chaotic and dangerous.

While the Minister of State is doing that, it would be remiss of me not to take the opportunity also to highlight other danger areas such as at Lavey GAA, where people are using vacant spaces there for parking their cars. The football grounds are good. The club gives over some of its parking facilities for people to park safely, but it is a chaotic dangerous junction. If we do not get funding given to Cavan County Council to address that, an accident will happen.

The Lavey Inn is another fine example of where we could have a park-and-ride facility. Killygarry-Poles is another fine example of areas where people come to meet with the N3. The bus stop is there, the bus facilities are there but we do not have the park-and-ride facilities we really need to make it safe to encourage people using public transport.

When we are looking at that entire route, around Tractamotors, which I am sure the Minister of State is familiar with, another really dangerous junction is choking up traffic going in and out of Cavan town. Cavan County Council is working with consultants to try to address that, but I would ask the Minister of State to apply as much pressure as possible so that funding is made available to Cavan County Council to do these important works.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to address this issue and discuss park-and-ride facilities. In my constituency of Dublin West that has a population including many Cavan people, I am aware from engaging with people who are commuting and have family members of the importance of this to the people in Cavan.

There are a substantial number of people in regional towns, the rural hinterland and, to a lesser extent, in the metropolitan area who do not have ease of access to high-quality public transport, either through walking or cycling. Appropriately located and designed park-and-ride facilities can enable these people to access public transport and enhance their options to reach a wide range of destinations in a sustainable manner and increase the usage of public transport, thereby maximising the value of investment in existing and new schemes. Park and ride can intercept car trips where people are reliant on a private car at an early point in their journey, thereby reducing the distances travelled by private car with a corresponding reduction in carbon emissions and congestion.

The National Transport Authority, NTA, has long recognised the importance of high-capacity park-and-ride facilities at designated public transport interchanges. It has been providing these facilities as part of ongoing investment in public transport. In line with the climate action plan, and to support the timely delivery of park-and-ride sites and a cohesive overall programme, the NTA established the park-and-ride development office in February 2020. This office provides design services to assist in the delivery of park-and-ride projects throughout the State. Plans to expand the park-and-ride network are set out in the various metropolitan area transport strategies which have been prepared by the NTA.

Caution must be exercised in the planning of park-and-ride facilities to ensure unintended consequences do not arise as a result of their provision, such as encouraging more dispersed development patterns by enabling longer distance commuting. It is the intention of the NTA, in conjunction with TII, Irish Rail, local authorities and landowners to deliver high quality major interchange facilities or mobility hubs at appropriate locations served by high-capacity public transport services. These will be designed to be as seamless as possible and will incorporate a wide range of facilities as appropriate, such as cycle parking, seating and shelter.

TII, in collaboration with Cavan County Council, is investigating the provision of enhanced parking facilities and works to improve the safety of rural bus stops on the N3, much of which the Deputy has spoken to in her contribution. This work began early this year.

There are currently three locations identified by TII and Cavan County Council. Cavan County Council has begun work to prepare feasibility and options reports for two of these locations. When that has concluded we can provide a further update on progress. The fact that we have investment and the two important delivery agencies in transport, the NTA and TII with the local authority making further progress with feasibility and option reports, will enable us to make further decisions on funding and where the best location might be. The commuter population in Cavan makes it an important place for that option as well as removing the displacement effect to which the Deputy referred in GAA clubs and elsewhere, which occurs as a consequence of the lack of a hub. That is an important context as we advance the feasibility and options reports.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I welcome the news that TII is working with Cavan County Council and that three areas or locations have been identified. I want to take this opportunity to thank Paddy Connaughton, our director of services, with whom I know the Minister of State will have worked closely, and John McKernan, our senior executive. I know they feel passionately about this. If there is money to be got, they are always front and centre in seeking it.

Whitegate is the most obvious and evident location where there is an issue. There is not even the use of a GAA park. The Lavey Inn kindly gives over parking. We have nowhere to take ground from. You see people parking in the bus stop which is really dangerous. People feel so passionately about this that they are coming out to protest on Friday. I want to make sure the Minister of State gives all the support he can to the county council that it gets the funds to deliver.

I will also take the opportunity to say I also made a submission on the rail lines. I want Cavan to be included in that. We are looking at developing the N3 from Whitegate to Cavan town. We should be ambitious enough to look at a real rail line, one that gives proper public transport all the way to Cavan town. It is maybe more than two years since I first sought a meeting with the NTA on a dangerous junction on the main street in Bailieborough. Two years on, we are still looking at a very dangerous junction. It is hostile towards pedestrians and traffic. It causes huge congestion. HGVs have to go through the town. It is an absolutely chaotic junction. I ask the Minister of State, if he can, to put some pressure on the NTA in order that it would be very forthcoming with Cavan County Council to make that junction a priority in the works for which it is providing funds to the council. It must ensure that junction is addressed sooner rather than later, or there will be a serious accident.

Deputy Jack Chambers

The Deputy’s contribution speaks to the need for wider investment in transport. From a public transport perspective, part of that is delivering greater rail and other infrastructure. The all-island rail review is the starting point for the wider vision we have on rail. To complement that, we must continue investment in roads infrastructure. We must make sure junctions and road infrastructure in towns and villages is made safer and we must promote road safety as a core part of roads investment. That is something we are seeking to prioritise.

On the progress on the different locations, I note the Deputy’s suggestions. Further work will be progressed by TII and the NTA as part of the feasibility and options report. Transport connectivity is hugely important for people who live and work in Ireland and is key to bringing life back into our villages, towns and urban centres. To encourage strong local economies and to give people real and viable alternatives to private cars, we need to provide good public transport options. We believe that expanding the public transport network and increasing service levels throughout the country in the ways set out in policies such as Connecting Ireland will lead to more balanced regional development and greater connectivity for all transport users. Park and ride can play a really important role in addressing congestion by intercepting private car trips and giving people the opportunity to use that public transport outlet in many areas. High capacity park and ride facilities are a really important part of that.

We will take on board what the Deputy has set out in the context of the park and ride facility. I note her comments on Bailieborough and will reflect that to the NTA as well as her suggestion on rail. I thank the Deputy for raising this issue this evening.

Disability Services

Deputy Joe McHugh

I am delighted the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is here as I know she is very much on top of her brief. This is evidenced by her presence throughout the country, including Donegal where she has visited a number of facilities in her time as Minister of State.

I raise this issue on behalf of the Special Needs Parents Donegal Network Group. Public representatives met with them yesterday and had a very good meeting. No doubt the Minister of State will have received the information in the brief from her colleague the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, who was there. He will have the report and the very intensive research it contains. One of the figures presented by the HSE yesterday was that there is a 56% vacancy level. The vacancy challenge is not confined to the north west; it exists throughout the country so it is a national crisis. I know that the Minister of State would like people to be in those positions in the morning but we have certain challenges. One mission statement from the parents was that their children cannot wait. Intervention is needed at a very young age, as the Minister of State will agree.

Parents have carried out the research and they have come up with solutions. They live their lives in the here and now. They cannot accept the mantra about waiting on people to apply. As public representatives, we have to challenge the argument that not enough people are available to apply. We have to look at alternatives. These parents, who live their daily lives dealing with their own children with disabilities, have come up with four comprehensive solutions. I know the Minister of State will take this back to her officials. I am asking for these four recommendations to be taken very seriously as part of a bottom-up, grounded, common-sense approach. They contain some very pragmatic suggestions.

One thing that was very evident yesterday was the lack of essential equipment. There are communication difficulties when the time comes to get wheelchairs changed, to get bigger equipment and to get measured and so on. The families of children with complex needs feel they are not receiving regular therapy, support or timely access to equipment. No indication has been given to parents on how this will be managed when there are no therapists on the team. That is the first point.

The second point relates to redeployment. The parents have proposed the redeployment of experienced and skilled resources from other areas. They are not looking to reinvent the wheel; they are looking at what we did during the Covid pandemic when redeployment was a major feature of our approach to the challenge we faced then.

The third recommendation relates to parents who are paying large amounts of money on private therapy. They are calling on the HSE to implement an emergency model to support access to private therapies where support and therapy cannot be provided by the HSE.

The fourth recommendation relates to therapeutic support and guidance for schools. The Minister of State will be aware of the pilot model through the Departments of Education and Health. I was involved in that. I know there is some resistance – I will not say whether it is coming from the Department of Health or the Department of Education – but I feel there is a real opportunity to use that pilot as a way forward and to use occupational therapists, speech and language therapists or physiotherapists to take a more integrated approach to health through our schools as well. I know the Minister of State will agree.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me an opportunity to engage with him on it. I look forward to taking away the four suggestions made by the parents. It is very important that children are fitted for their equipment in a timely fashion.

It is very important for children who need access to wheelchairs as they grow that their needs are met. If they are not, other issues will follow suit. I hear what the Deputy is saying about redeployment or even if we could just introduce the HSE's own policy, the national access plan, NAP. The team we spoke about in County Donegal is a HSE team, as is the primary care team. Why can we not apply the NAP, whereby some clinicians working in primary care could assist in the crisis in our disability teams, if nothing else, even from the level of occupational therapy at this point so that children can have proper sitting equipment at school, at home or in the service they attend? That would be our one ask, that the disability lead - and a fabulous disability manager at that - Ms Quinn, work with me and her colleague in primary care. If we could achieve that, we would achieve a lot to start. The Deputy spoke about redeployment; I have looked at County Donegal at lot on this. The panel system does not work for County Donegal by any manner or means. I also do not think the recruitment system within the HSE works for County Donegal. It works very well for recruiting doctors and administrative staff but it does not work for clinicians in certain parts of the country. I would abolish the panel and make it available and let people travel as they so wish, as opposed to waiting for a vacancy to come in County Galway or in County Dublin, for example. The panel system should be abolished completely and it should be made available so that people can move to their desired location, as opposed to waiting for it. The other thing about recruitment with the HSE is that there is an internal model for when you go for a senior post and an outsourcing when you go for an ordinary grade. The recruitment agency within disability is not doing us justice when we have 700 vacant posts. I hear what the Deputy is saying about redeployment.

On support therapies and schools, I have given a lot of thought to these matters. Earlier, there was a motion and the Government tabled a counter-motion. My hope is to establish a ring-fenced support mechanism in the coming months which supports parents who access assessments of need privately. I am also looking at that in terms of therapies and what mechanisms can support families to access the package, be it six weeks of occupational therapy or six weeks of speech and language therapy. When we are not able to deliver the service, we have to look at another parallel process of delivery. Some 700 therapy posts not filled is the equivalent of €56 million unspent within my disability budget. I need to look at repurposing if I cannot deliver to meet the needs of the families and, most important, the child at the centre.

On schools, the Deputy is well aware of the school model. We removed therapists from special schools and it ended up levelling down the system. It did not raise it. We talked about equity of access. At the moment, I have partnered with the HSE in County Wexford. The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Kehoe, and Deputy James Browne were there on the day and we are now giving funding to the school to recruit the therapists. They recruited the three of them, would you believe, in the space of two weeks. There is full access to therapists in the school in County Wexford, meeting the needs of the young people. I am addressing that and looking to expand it. I have no problem working with the Deputy or Deputy McConalogue on it.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I thank the Minister of State. I appreciate her honesty. It is a sign when a Minister of State deviates from his or her script. It shows a bit of respect to the people who raised this issue. It is a very dignified thing to do; she is talking from her own personal interactions with officials and she has obviously thought about this issue. There are ways forward. I thank the Minister of State for agreeing to look at these recommendations seriously and discuss them with her officials. I join the Minister of State in acknowledging Edel Quinn and her team, who were there yesterday in force. They meant business by their presence. Out of respect to all the parents at that meeting, it is really important. I acknowledge my Oireachtas colleagues who attended that meeting. We were there to listen but there was a very strong message from the parents. They want action because their children live in the here and now.

In the concluding 60 seconds, I know my two Oireachtas colleagues will raise the issue of Letterkenny University Hospital. I do not have time to discuss it now in the short time left but I want to pass on my message through the Minister of State to the Minister of Health to look very seriously at the winter plan for Letterkenny University Hospital to get the patient flow right. There are senior posts needed there, from registrars, phlebotomists, occupational therapists, radiographers, sonographers and nurses to porters. There is a comprehensive winter plan put together by the manager of that hospital. It will not sort all the problems but it will address the fact there are very elderly, frail and sick people spending too many hours on chairs in waiting rooms. I ask the Minister of State to pass that onto the Minister.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I look forward to engaging with the Deputy going forward on County Donegal and the CDNT. I am concerned about the CDNT in County Donegal for the simple reason that it is a HSE team. If we fail to recruit onto a HSE team, my options are very limited. We have to make it incredibly attractive. The clinicians were incredibly helpful to me during the summer when I was down there. They are the ones who told me about the panel process, what I needed to do and am trying to do. To be very fair to Bernard Gloster, he is more than willing to step up whatever needs to be done to ensure that there is a proper, functioning team, not just in County Donegal but across the CDNTs. At the moment, there is a clear pinch point in County Donegal because when you do not have the occupational therapist assessing the child for their basic need of machinery they require to live a full life, there is an issue. I appeal to the HSE again that, regarding the national access plan, they redeploy staff, even if it is only for a week, to have some of assessments done for children in crisis, for footwear or wheelchairs and that it is a priority. I take that point away from tonight and will revert to the Deputy over the coming days.

Hospital Services

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I apologise. Whenever the Minister for Health is not available when a Topical Issue comes up, the protocol is that we are to be made aware that the Minister is not available. That has not happened in this case. We cannot proceed. The Minister for Health has not notified us.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Are the Deputies not proceeding?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

That is the protocol. It is clearly established. I am the Sinn Féin Whip. The protocol is that we are to be made aware of it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand the protocol but it is just a pity that we did not know.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

The need for me to table this Topical Issue arose following weeks of worry and disquiet among workers, users and families who have children or grown-up children with disabilities. They were very worried.

The phone was hopping in recent weeks. It culminated in a deputation coming to my clinic in Scotts Hotel on Saturday, led by Donie Doody and several others. I am glad that the matter seems to be resolved. I have raised it several times over the years in this Chamber. What we hear is that 3% will be paid from last April, 2% in November and 3% next April. My understanding is that there is still 1.5% outstanding before pay parity is arrived at with HSE workers and other public sector workers. I ask that the payments be made and that there be complete parity for the workers. When HSE or other public sector workers get a raise in the future, I ask that these people will get one as well. They took a pay cut back in 2008, which is 15 years ago. It is an awful long time to leave them without proper pay and pay parity.

The strike would have left thousands of people without assistance or access to day care centres, leaving many potentially trapped at home, with some unable to even get out of bed without help. We have so many of these service providers in Kerry such as Cheshire Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Enable Ireland, family resource centres, the Irish Wheelchair Association and the Kerry Parents and Friends Association. All the individuals and workers involved are highly trained. They can deal with the problems and the expansive range of disabilities of the users. No one else could do their work.

It was very hurtful and many people were very angry that the talks went to the brink so late last night. We thank the Department and the people on the workers' side for their work in recent days and for working into the night and ensuring the strike was called off. We are all very grateful for that. I appeal to the Minister of State that whatever difference remains - I am told there is a difference of 1.5% - it will be addressed, that the workers in section 39 organisations will get complete pay parity and that they will have this in the future.

The stress imposed on families across the country cannot be reversed. This treatment by the Government was not desirable. I am very hurt about that, as are many other people.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter, which the Government has been working intensively to resolve in recent weeks and months. The sustainability and stability of health and social care sectors and the impact of industrial action on essential services is a concern for the Government. I am particularly aware that staff recruitment and retention challenges have been affecting the sustainability and stability of the section 39 and section 56 organisations, and their ability to deliver services on behalf of the State.

Following intensive talks under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission, parties to the process, including the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Health, reached a pay agreement with unions. Sometimes it is wrong to name people but we had officials there and they played a phenomenal role - Colm, James, David, Anthony and Garry. The unions were representing section 39, section 56 and section 10 organisations. I thank the representative bodies from the unions for their role in achieving the successful outcome early this morning.

The agreement, which unions have indicated will be put to their members, proposes an 8% increase over three phases: an increase of 3% backdated to April, as Deputy Healy-Rae rightly says; an increase of 2% from 1 November and an increase of 3% from March 2024.

In addition, agreement was reached to commence a process to facilitate discussions on appropriate further funding increases, having regard to Building Momentum and any successor public sector pay agreement. To be honest, that was the hardest aspect of all to be agreed. It was to ensure that we do not find ourselves again with the gap widening. We must have a parallel process. To be very fair to the unions and to the departmental officials, they have worked out and laboured on the language that they can put to the members now on a parallel process to ensure that a pay gap does not develop again. That is a very important piece. Most importantly, and in the immediate term, this agreement has resulted in the postponement of planned industrial action by staff today.

The Government is committed to the expansion of services for people with disabilities. The disability action plan was approved by the Government in July of this year and is currently being prepared for publication. In addition to the disability action plan, the roadmap for children's services will be launched next week. The roadmap aims to improve services for children with complex needs and their families.

I recognise the essential role section 39 organisations will have in delivering the ambitions and targets of the disability action plan and services for children. My Department has been engaged on the issue with the Department of Health since the transfer of functions. As we all know, that initial offer in July to increase funding was not accepted by the trade union representatives and, consequently, unions representing section 39 and section 56 workers announced that their members in a selection of employer organisations would take indefinite action, so it was crucial that we found a resolution.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach spoke earlier. I was acutely aware that there were television programmes being broadcast, all the while knowing that an agreement had to be found. I recognise the hard work of all the parties involved in reaching this agreement, including the officials in the Departments, but, most importantly, I acknowledge the families who were in anguish wondering if the dispute could be resolved. I also acknowledge the staff who were reluctant to feel that they were forced into strike action to get a resolution. I thank all for their patience and for bearing with the Government. Perhaps it took too long, but I hope that we can reach a desired outcome.

My job in all of this is that in 2018 when pay restoration was discussed, the top 50 organisations were picked out of the 300 and they left 250 behind. I was determined, along with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, that this time if we were introducing pay restoration we would get it for all and we would leave no organisation behind.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. As she stated, the recruitment and retention of staff is a problem. I raised this matter in the House a few months ago. I am not sure how long ago it was, but I raised it a number of times.

I am still a bit worried about any difference that might still remain. I have been told there is a difference of 1.5%. That should not and could not be the case. Some 5,000 workers were going to go out on strike. Thousands of disabled people and their families would have been upset. Some of them would not have been able to get out of bed today. The talks should not have gone to the brink like that. I am glad the Minister of State has admitted that it should not have gone that far.

People are born with disabilities and others become disabled during their lives. As elected representatives in this Chamber, we must do our level best for them and help the workers because the work is highly specialised. The staff are trained and it takes years before people are on top of their job in certain areas where there are tricky and hard things to do to manage these people who are the way they are through no fault of their own. We call them special people.

Whatever about anything else, we must help disabled people and people who cannot fend for themselves. There is one big worry. I know several parents who have such children and they have borne the cross very well all their lives. However, they get older and get into their 70s and 80s and then perhaps only one parent is left. Age determines how long we stay on this earth, no matter what kind of health we are in. These parents find themselves in this position and are totally dependent. There should never again be any difference in the pay of section 39 and section 38 workers. They are all wonderful people and they must all be treated the same as far as pay is concerned.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I have consistently stated that the Government's commitment to the sustainability and stability of the health and social care sectors, recognising the ability of the voluntary organisations to pay their staff, is highly dependent on State funding. That is critical. I have totally recognised that and, along with everybody else here in the House, I have advocated for it. As the Deputy totally understands, we had to engage in a process. The process may have been a bit late in starting and it may have taken a little bit too long but we got there in the end. I thank the Ministers, Deputies O'Gorman, Stephen Donnelly and Donohoe, for the role they played in allowing us to bring out an envelope to engage in that process. In doing that with the support of the three party leaders, they also ensured that we addressed the provision in Building Momentum that stated we would commence a process to consider appropriate further funding increases having regard to the Building Momentum agreement and any successor public pay agreement. That is the kernel of the matter. We must prevent any further expansion of gaps and keep conditions aligned so that there is equal pay for equal work because all of these people are doing the work of caring for persons with disabilities, whether in voluntary bodies under section 38 and section 39 or in the HSE, and I see their work as equal. As I said last week on the floor of the Dáil, to me, equity means equity for the workers as well as equity for the service users.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 9.22 p.m. go dtí 9.10 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 18 Deireadh Fómhair 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.22 p.m. until 9.10 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2023.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 17 Oct 2023