Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 2023

Vol. 1044 No. 2

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Israel's carpet bombing decimated Gaza's medical infrastructure, crippling the ability of Palestinians to help the injured, the sick and the dying. The destruction of hospitals is a direct violation of international law, a war crime, yet Israel believes it has the right to bomb hospitals. Last night, Al-Ahli hospital in Gaza City was bombed. "Devastation", "carnage" and "a massacre" are just some of the words used by those who witnessed the devastation. Hundreds of innocent men, women and children have been reported dead, their lives wiped out in one horrific instant. Many more lie lost, buried beneath the rubble. This atrocity is made all the more harrowing because so many of those killed and wounded had fled their homes believing they were safe at a hospital, but they were wrong. Last night's bombing of Al-Ahli hospital demonstrates that nowhere is safe in Gaza. All the while, Israel's siege on Gaza continues and it intensifies a merciless military bombardment of an impoverished refugee population. We are now bearing witness to human catastrophe on an unimaginable scale.

So far, more than 3,000 Palestinians have been killed, a third of whom were children. Thousands more have been injured and an entire population has been displaced from their homes. The people of Gaza now face starvation as food runs out. Supplies of electricity, fuel and essential medicines are cut off as Israel continues its blockade. There is no clean water so the people of Gaza, desperate to survive, are drinking unsanitary water. Now the fear is that we will see an outbreak of cholera in Gaza. A disease such as cholera would rip through a war-torn, impoverished and malnourished population whose medical infrastructure has been obliterated, heaping nightmare upon nightmare. Gaza's children scavenge for supplies in the rubble of what were once their neighbourhoods, schools and playgrounds. Little kids on their bikes doing everything they can to help their mammies and daddies are traumatised by conflict and now stalked by disease. Níl an bhuamáil ar Gaza, atá á déanamh ag Iosrael, cosantach. Ionsaí ar dhaoine bochta atá ann. An bhfuil an Taoiseach chun iarraidh ar sos cogaidh? I said to the Taoiseach yesterday that Israel's actions are not defensive. Carpet bombing civilians is not defence.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Starving people is not defence. Impoverishing and displacing people are not defence. Destruction of their hospitals is not defence. This is in fact an all-out offensive assault on a refugee population trapped in the world's largest open-air prison. The leadership of the international community condemns, deplores and expresses outrage but does not shout "Stop". Humanity now demands we call for a full and immediate ceasefire. Stop the slaughter of the Palestinians. Stop the bombardment of Gaza. End the blockade and create space for a dialogue. The Taoiseach has described Israel's bombardment of Gaza as collective punishment. He said it is in breach of international law. Will he condemn these actions by Israel? Will he demand the one thing that can transform this awful situation - an immediate and full ceasefire?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this really important issue which I think is on the minds of everyone in this House and everyone in the country. On behalf of the Government, I condemn unequivocally the bombing of the Anglican Al-Ahli hospital yesterday in Gaza. It was an atrocity. It violated the rules of war and violated basic humanity. It might yet prove to be a war crime but whatever has happened, the violence must stop and we stand in full solidarity with the people of Israel and Palestine who want the violence to stop, and there are many of them. We do not yet know the details or all the facts about the attack, whether it was deliberate or intentional, whether it was carried out by the Israeli Defense Forces, Palestinian Hamas or Islamic Jihad. We need an independent investigation if that is at all possible. What is certain, however, is that the Palestinian civilians here are the innocent victims. That is absolutely certain.

As a Government, we call for three things to happen immediately: for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire to be observed by all parties to the conflict, and let me be clear about that; for Hamas to release its hostages and to do so immediately, without precondition, and to lay down its arms; and for Israel to turn back on the power and water and to allow humanitarian corridors to be created to relieve the extraordinary burden on the people of Palestine who are suffering today.

What is clear is that there is no military solution to this conflict. It has been going on for 75 years or more now. The only solution is peace, and a just peace. Caithimid sos cogaidh a fháil anois, ar gach taobh.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I welcome that call. We need ceasefires. We need peace. We need an end to the bombardment and the blockade, and the suffering inflicted mercilessly by Israel on the Gazan population. Let me just say to the Taoiseach what we do know. We know that Israel has bombed hospitals in Gaza before. It is a repeat offender in this regard. We know that Israel ordered the evacuation of hospitals. We know that Israeli spokespersons have defended the targeting of hospitals in urban settings. Above all else, we know that Israel has been allowed by the international community, time and again, to break international law. The Taoiseach has recognised those violations himself. I ask him now, on behalf of the Irish people and as Head of Government, to condemn the actions of the Israeli Government in this regard.

I support the Taoiseach's call for a ceasefire. That is where we must go - make no mistake about it - but equally we need to call out and condemn the actions of Israel. Will the Taoiseach do that?

The Taoiseach

We know from recent history and, indeed, the history of the past few decades that both the Israeli Defense Forces and Hamas and Islamic Jihad are all capable of terrible atrocities. As a Government, we condemn them unreservedly and unequivocally. I want to be very clear about that.

As I have said, we call for three things to be done: an immediate ceasefire to be observed by all sides; Hamas to release the hostages; and Israel to turn the water and power back on and allow humanitarian corridors to be created.

The Deputy spoke eloquently about war crimes and I agree with her. I am glad to hear the Deputy speak so strongly about war crimes. Since independence, for 100 years now in Ireland, we in our millions have rejected terrorism and rejected those who attacked civilians, whether it was hospitals or shopping centres or restaurants. There is one thing I can say to the Deputy very clearly. For 100 years, we rejected terrorism here. We reject it there, now and always. People who commit war crimes should be brought to justice even if it takes 50 years. I hope the Deputy will concur with that sentiment.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

We have all been watching the violence escalate in Israel and Gaza over the past 11 days with grave horror and distress, as civilian deaths have mounted.

Late last night, we learned with increasing horror that an air strike on the al-Ahli Arab Hospital in besieged Gaza has killed many hundreds of people. An image which will stay with all of us is that of the press conference held by hospital staff surrounded by such appalling scenes of carnage. The Taoiseach has described it rightly as an atrocity and it clearly is only the latest in this awful conflict. They are still pulling bodies out of the rubble in that hospital and in the other residential areas of Gaza which have been under bombardment by Israel. I think all of us share the same human response of distress and grief to see this humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza unfolding before our eyes.

I listened to the Israeli ambassador’s response this morning which shamefully focused less on the human tragedy resulting from the attack on the hospital and more on the attribution of blame for the bombing of the hospital. Certainly, we believe, and I think the Taoiseach does too because the Tánaiste has said this, that there is now a need for an independent international investigation to be carried out into last night's attack on a hospital and that should be carried out by the International Criminal Court, which has accepted the mandate. The Tánaiste, as I say, has spoken in support of that.

What is undoubtedly the case is that even before last night’s attack, Israel had been committing horrific breaches of international law upon the people of Gaza. The bombardment of civilians and of civilian infrastructure, the siege and starvation tactics being deployed upon the people of Gaza and the forced evacuation of thousands into the south of this tiny open-air prison all amount to clear violations of international humanitarian law. Just as our legal framework at international level criminalises the barbaric acts of Hamas, which I have condemned, it also provides a clear framework which should be governing Israel's response. Any nation in any armed conflict, no matter what the provocation it claims, is bound in law to comply with internationally established laws of war, international laws and the Geneva Conventions. This much is evident: the besiegement and bombardment of civilians amount to clear breaches of those laws and those conventions.

There is no space for equivocation on this. I believe that Ireland and the Irish Government need to be at the forefront of calls, at EU and UN level, for Israel to respect international humanitarian law. We need to speak with a united voice on that. That is why we, in Labour, have put forward a series of amendments to the motion the Government has proposed. I want us to be sure that we can take those amendments, that we can debate this and create a united voice for peace across the floor of this House. Will the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste accept our amendments, which would unreservedly condemn the collective punishment and the indiscriminate bombing of residential areas in Gaza and which would call for not only a humanitarian pause but an immediate ceasefire? I heard the Taoiseach's response earlier and he and the Government have been strong on that too. We need to speak with that united voice to ensure that we see relief for the appalling conditions of the citizens of Gaza.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I have not had a chance to see those amendments yet but I met the Tánaiste this morning and I know he is working on it. If we can agree an all-party motion on this matter, that would be beneficial and would send a very strong statement beyond this House to the people and to the world more widely, but it needs to be balanced. It needs, as the Deputy has done, to condemn Hamas, to recognise the atrocities that have been committed by it, as well as others.

I will point out, once again, we condemn without equivocation the attack on the hospital last night. We will do so at EU level and we will do so at UN level as well. It was an atrocity. It certainly violated the rules of war and, beyond rules, basic humanity that civilians in a hospital should ever be targeted by anyone in any conflict or any campaign of war or terror.

It might yet prove to be a war crime. That has yet to be determined. I agree that an independent international investigation is required if at all possible.

In terms of what we are calling for as a Government, clearly we are calling for three things to happen now: for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire to be observed by all parties to the conflict; that Hamas should release the hostages it is holding and should do so without conditions; and that Israel should turn the power and the water back on to relieve the burden on Palestinian citizens living in Gaza and to allow the creation of humanitarian corridors. The possibility that people could run out of water in the next few days, that a largely medieval disease such as cholera could stalk Gaza again, is unthinkable and cannot be allowed to happen.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Taoiseach for the response.

The response of Ireland and the international community clearly matters. It is time for the international community to call stop.

While I agree with the three calls the Government has made, we need to do more. Ireland must do all we can, not only to bring about a ceasefire, to bring about, what the Taoiseach has described, the release of hostages and the restoring of power and of water to Gaza, but to ensure also that Israel is held accountable. I have already written to the President of the EU Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, seeking a stronger position from the EU on this. Today, I have also written to the US ambassador to Ireland, H.E. Ms Claire Cronin, because the Biden Administration should be pushing for an immediate ceasefire and for an end to the bombardment of Gaza and we should ensure that Israel is held accountable for breaches of international law.

Following Hamas's horrific attack, which I have condemned as so many of us have, many countries have been reluctant to remind Israel of its international law obligations but it is at this times when grief in Israel is so raw that it is all the more important that we see a calm, a compassionate and, above all, an internationally legal response to the calamity that was inflicted on the people of Israel. We need to ensure that this hideous calamity that we are seeing unfold now for the people of Gaza is not allowed to continue and that Ireland is a strong voice at international level pushing for that ceasefire, for that restoration of power and services to Gaza, but also to hold a nation like Israel accountable where it commits war crimes.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. We had a video-conference of the European Council - the 27 Heads of State and Government - yesterday. It was a good meeting. It built on the statement that was released by the President of the European Council, Charles Michel, on behalf of the European Council on Saturday, puts us in a better place as a European Union and is a more consistent approach. The European Union can have more influence acting together than any member state can on its own.

We agreed very clearly to condemn the terrorist actions by Hamas and to recognise Israel's right to defend itself but that has to be within the confines of international humanitarian law. We spoke about the need to de-escalate this conflict. It cannot be de-escalated without an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, and that is something that we are calling for as a Government. We also agreed that there needed to be a humanitarian response to relieve the suffering of the people in Gaza and far from suspending aid, we agreed that we would treble aid to Gaza as a European Union. We also agreed that we would work with Egypt to try to open a humanitarian air corridor as soon as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Verona Murphy on behalf of the Regional Group.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I hope the Taoiseach had the opportunity to read David McWilliams's article in Saturday's edition of The Irish Times giving his opinion on the budget with regard to housing. If the Taoiseach did not get a chance to read it, let me put some of the main points to him. He starts off by highlighting the folly of awarding a tax break on mortgages, which sounds nice in theory but in practice only helps to ensure that house prices remain higher than they need to be, a move, he argues, that will not lead to a single extra house being built. Indeed, he says that if tax breaks are given every time interest rates rise, house prices will rise regardless of whether interest rates rise or fall.

Mr. McWilliams then moved on to highlight the problem of the rental tax credit. It is not a long-term solution to any problem and is more likely to put a floor on rents, which could possibly drive up rental costs. His next target for criticism was the tax break for landlords. Yes, we need people to be landlords and we need conditions to encourage people to rent out property rather than having it lying idle but the tax break is hardly a necessary way to spend money. High rents and high demand should be enough of an incentive for landlords to rent out property. Making it more straightforward in terms of regulation and red tape would have been a better option. Landlords would be better served by a functioning Residential Tenancies Board where issues were dealt with in a timely manner. He also wrote “Instead of doing something that could boost building like, say, cutting development levies or funding them through higher local property tax or cutting VAT on new builds, parties of the centre have adopted the nonsensical policy option advocated by Sinn Féin,” and that the Government “should be confidently highlighting the ideological difference between themselves and Sinn Féin rather than robbing Sinn Féin’s clothes".

Prior to the budget I met both Ministers, Deputies Michael McGrath and Donohoe as part of the Regional Group delegation. Part of that discussion was on interest rate rises. Rates have risen by 4.25% since July last year, leaving first-time buyers stretched to their limits to purchase the most basic housing units in regional Ireland. Before interest rates started to rise, first-time buyers' inability to obtain sufficient mortgage approvals was a significant component of the housing crisis. As a result of higher interest rates, banks have changed their underwriting criteria, resulting in first-time buyers being able to borrow considerably less than a year ago, that is, by approximately €50,000 per couple. I put two proposals to the Ministers. One was a mortgage interest relief scheme granting tax relief to first-time buyers that would give banks more flexibility to underwrite larger mortgages for first-time buyers such that those on marginal incomes could get a mortgage sufficient to buy a home. The second was for the Government to rebate the VAT on new homes directly to first-time buyers, immediately after taking possession of their homes. On a sum of, say, €325,000 this would amount to €38,656. Will the Taoiseach now consider some of these proposals? The measures would be temporary and reviewed when Euribor rates reduce below 2%. They most certainly would increase the prospects of house building becoming viable and ensuring that buyers were in the market in the future.

The Taoiseach

We will always consider good proposals from other people and the Opposition. I think we have shown that when it comes to housing policy. We have taken a number of steps in recent years and months that we might not have done previously. We will always consider these things but we must be careful around demand-side measures. I am not against demand-side measures but we must be careful because of the risk of putting up property prices.

I did read David McWilliams’s article. He is a very good commentator and a very interesting one but I disagree with his analysis on this occasion. I will tell the Deputy why. We have done five things in the budget and before the budget that I think do make a difference and they were not accounted for in the article. First, we approved a €5 billion budget for housing. That will allow us to break all records in the provision of new public housing next year, social, cost rental and affordable. We will break all records next year because of that budget. Second, we increased the rent credit to €750 for a single person and €1,500 for a couple, putting roughly a month’s rent back in people’s pockets. Third, we extended the help-to-buy scheme. It helps many first-time buyers to get their deposit. They would not even be able to bid for a house were it not for help-to-buy and I am glad we extended that for another year. We also put in place tax breaks for small landlords to encourage them to stay in the market. That had been advocated by the Regional Group only a few months ago. Mr. McWilliams suggested that we should cut development levies. We have done more than that; they are gone. We got rid of them a few months ago. If anybody says that this Government is only interested in demand-side measures, it is totally incorrect. We have supply-side measures too. The suspension of the development levies is an example of that. The grants to renovate and do up derelict properties have had 4,000 applications already. That is another example of a supply-side measure. The reforms we are making to the planning system are a further example of supply-side measures.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I cannot say I agree with the Taoiseach on many of those points. When the Taoiseach says demand-led measures, the demand he is aiming for is a target of 30,000. That is half of what the Housing Commission says we should be aiming for. For the past ten years, we have incurred a deficit of 250,000 homes. That is 25,000 a year less than we should have been building. If the Taoiseach continues with his attitude, we will end up with another 250,000 deficit on top of the deficit we already have. The Government’s targets are far too low. The Housing Commission says we need to be building between 45,000 and 65,000 homes annually. The Taoiseach is greatly underestimating the level of anger and frustration in families who are unable to get students into college accommodation or get their families to move out for the want of accommodation. Furthermore, many are taking back their sons and daughters with grandchildren. The Taoiseach should read the article again and please consider the proposals I have put to him because we need to build more houses and ensure they are viable into the future.

The Taoiseach

When I first became Taoiseach in 2017, we were only building around 14,000 new homes a year in the State. That has more than doubled. We are up to 30,000 and I would like to see it double again by the end of the decade. I believe that is possible.

The target we set of building 29,000 new homes this year is a target, not a ceiling. We intend to exceed it, just as we did last year. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, is working on revised targets for the coming years. We have advice from the Housing Commission and we also have advice from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. We have to take both sets of advice into account. I expect that early in the new year we will increase our housing targets for the years ahead for the reasons the Deputy gave. We should also include in those targets student accommodation, which currently counts for nothing. That does not make sense to me. Those targets should also include bringing vacant and derelict homes back into use because they also count for nothing at present and they should count.

Deputy Joan Collins

First and foremost, I want to send my solidarity to the Palestinian people and all living under siege in Gaza now. What the State of Israel is doing now is a war crime. It breaks international law. I can think of no other words to describe it than ethnic cleansing. We are speaking on this issue later but I want to call again on the Government to condemn the Israeli state and to put massive pressure on it to declare an immediate ceasefire and an immediate end to the murder it is inflicting. Any indiscriminate killing of any citizen by any group should be condemned.

I raise another important topic. Almost exactly one year ago, the EU passed a directive on adequate minimum wages. Part of the directive was the requirement for countries with less than 80% collective bargaining coverage to implement plans to increase coverage by November 2024. That is only a year away. The 80% threshold is based on trends that clearly show that most countries with a smaller share of low-paid workers and high minimum wages have over 80% collective bargaining coverage. We will continue to implement plans until we reach 80%. Ireland has a collective bargaining coverage of 33%, meaning we would need real structural changes to more than double our coverage. Sectoral bargaining will not bring that structural change. The EU passed this directive in recognition that increases in minimum wage are no substitute for a worker’s ability to negotiate his or her own pay and conditions. That means a greater ability for workers to negotiate with their own employer through their own union. Ireland has among the lowest collective bargaining trade union density in the EU. The implications of this are that Ireland has among the highest prevalence of low pay and among the highest market inequality rates in the EU. We have growing deprivation, at risk of poverty and consistent poverty rates. From my work with trade unionists, I know that workers in many sectors, especially low-paid areas such as retail, hospitality, bars, administration and workers in bogus self-employment face employers who are increasingly anti-union. The Government is on the record saying the directive will be on the agenda for the Labour Employer Economic Forum. I do not think this is good enough. The Dáil needs to see these plans before they are presented to the EU next year and there needs to be real democratic oversight of this.

To get anywhere close to the 80% threshold we will need to more than double our current collective bargaining rate of 33%.

This will require both structural changes and primary legislation. What are the Government's plans to make those changes? When will we see them? If we do not see movement on this soon, the Opposition will need to start introducing Bills to address this directive.

The Taoiseach

I am familiar with the directive; I was involved in putting it together in my last job in government as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has two aspects. One relates to the national minimum wage and the other to collective bargaining. On the first part, relating to the national minimum wage, we are way ahead of it already. We established the Low Pay Commission during the Fine Gael-Labour Government a long time ago. We are now very much en route to having a living wage in Ireland, calculated at 60% of the median wage. We could even get there as quickly as next year, given the significant increase of more than 12% in the national minimum wage due in January, running at roughly double the rate of inflation. I am proud to be part of the Government that has achieved that, as well as adding new protections and benefits like paid family leave and sick pay and, later this year, a pension for every worker, which we do not currently have, through auto-enrolment.

On collective bargaining, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Richmond, are preparing legislation in that regard, which will require good faith engagement between employers and the representative of employees, which may be trade unions or other mechanisms such as work councils. That legislation is currently being developed. It is important to point out, when it comes to collective bargaining legislation and the EU directive, that collective bargaining is not the same as forced union recognition; they are separate matters. There are ways to enable collective bargaining that can work, such as joint labour committees, JLCs, and joint industrial councils, JICs. We see that working in many sectors in Ireland, including the construction sector, for example. It is about more than minimum wages. It is also about terms and conditions, pay scales and protections, which is what we see in our employment regulation orders.

On a factual point, it is important to state again that poverty rates can go up and down in any given year but they are certainly lower than they were ten years ago. Poverty has trended downwards over the past ten years and income inequality has narrowed over the past ten years. I hope the Deputy will be able to acknowledge that in her response.

Deputy Joan Collins

The EU passed that directive in recognition that increases in the minimum wage, as the Taoiseach mentioned, are no substitute for workers' ability to negotiate their own pay and conditions. That means a greater ability for workers to negotiate with their employers through their unions. The Taoiseach said that the minimum wage has been increased, which is welcome. Any increase in income is welcome but I call for a €15 living wage for workers to be able to survive in this economy from the point of view of the cost of living. Food prices will go up again this year by at least another 10%, I think - those are the indications I read the other day. That will have a huge impact on workers. I ask the Taoiseach to bring forward the legislation on which the Minister, Deputy Coveney, is working, as quickly as possible in order that we can all have a look at it and to ensure there is plenty of transparency for Members of this Dáil.

The Taoiseach

The real minimum wage, the national minimum wage, is set at 60% of median earnings. That was the recommendation of the Low Pay Commission, which the Government accepted. It was the consensus view of employers, unions and academics and it is the fairest way to calculate it. That is the target we will achieve, if not next year, then the year after. That is a big change just in the past five or six years. We are introducing a living wage, have introduced statutory sick pay and paid parental leave and, this year, we also will legislate for auto-enrolment so that every worker has an occupational pension on top of his or her State pension. I do not think any Government in the history of the State, on any objective analysis, has done more in terms of workers' rights than this Government.