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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Feb 2024

Vol. 1049 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle agus guím beannachtaí na Féile Bríde uirthi agus ar phobal mór na hÉireann.

Inniu arís, chonaiceamar an cultúr a bhí ann in RTÉ faoin iar-ard-stiúrthóir RTÉ agus faoi na rialtais i ndiaidh a cheile. Tá muinín caillte ag an bpobal in RTÉ. Tá sé soiléir gurb é an t-am anois deireadh a chur leis an gceadúnas teilifíse, athchóiriu a dhéanamh ar RTÉ agus é a chur ar bhonn maoiniú inbhuanaithe.

Yesterday, we were all given another glimpse, if we needed another one, of the culture that prevailed at RTÉ under the former director general and successive Governments. The report by McCann Fitzgerald found ten redundancies under the 2017 voluntary exit programme did not satisfy the requirements of a redundancy within the meaning of the Redundancy Payment Acts and that, as a result, it may be the case RTÉ should not have applied a tax exemption on the €223,000 it made in exit payments to ten individuals. We also learned the exit package of RTÉ's former chief financial officer was not approved by its executive board. I have called on the Revenue Commissioners to investigate these revelations in full.

Only last week the latest report on the fiasco around Toy Show The Musical, which was also not approved by the executive board, was published. These are damning findings and the public is sick to the teeth of all of this. It is little wonder payments of the TV licence have fallen off a cliff. It is vital the public trusts RTÉ but trust takes time to build and needs to be earned. People are sick of the squandering of public money and lack of accountability with no one held to account. It seems the only people being held to account are the 60 people being brought before the courts every day for non-payment of the TV licence. What a contrast: one rule for RTÉ executives and another for taxpayers.

Public sector broadcasting is essential and needs to be funded properly. It needs to be independent, rigorous and trusted. That is why the current situation is untenable. A bad situation is being allowed to deteriorate. The Government needs to stop dithering and needs to act. It has had a report on its desk since 2021 - three years now - with recommendations to abolish the licence fee and to replace that revenue with Exchequer finance. I want the Government to act on that recommendation. Government bickering and indecision is making a bad decision worse. The public wants decisive action on this and wants it now.

Sinn Féin would abolish the TV licence and fund RTÉ and other public service media through Exchequer funding. This is what was recommended by the report of the expert group on the Future of Media Commission, sent to the Government in July 2021. Such an approach would end the farcical and often cruel pursuit of hard-pressed individuals through the courts for non-payment, sometimes resulting in their imprisonment for a couple of hours. Removal of the licence fee and its replacement with direct Exchequer funding would put RTÉ on a sustainable financial footing. It would allow for rigorous financial oversight by the Comptroller and Auditor General and would ensure financial scandals like those we have seen in RTÉ would be a thing of the past, never to be tolerated or to happen again.

The Government has suggested this would impact RTÉ's editorial independence but none of this will. The commission's report is clear and makes recommendations on that and to how multi-annual funding would be provided. Nobody suggests TG4 is being interfered with. It is Exchequer funded. It is not funded by the licence fee and there is no suggestion its editorial independence is in any way jeopardised by that. I ask the Tánaiste to stop dithering and delaying, to make a decision to scrap the licence fee, to replace that financing with Exchequer funding and to fulfil the recommendations of the commission's report.

Ar dtús báire, guím Lá Fhéile Bríde do gach éinne agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle as an óráid a thug sí dúinn roimh thosach Cheisteanna ó Cheannairí.

I take this opportunity to wish Charlie O'Leary, who is celebrating his 100th birthday, the very best.

He was an iconic figure in the Jack Charlton Irish football team set-up back in the heyday. His contribution to Irish soccer has been immense and I think we all thank him for that.

I share the Deputy's dismay at the unfolding events in RTÉ and the clear absence of proper governance in respect of a range of issues that have been well articulated in various reports, in this House and before many Oireachtas committees.

The report is unacceptable in terms of what it reveals, not the report itself, but what it reveals is unacceptable in terms of the absence of the RTÉ executive, for example, sanctioning redundancies and redundancies happening where in fact there was no suppression of jobs. The situation with the toy show was equally shocking. The €2 million loss was equivalent to the deficit at the time. The Government shares that annoyance and anger and there are further reports coming. Those should be subject to further examination by the relevant Oireachtas committees, especially the media committee, and the Committee of Public Accounts will no doubt seek to have further sessions in respect of the reports that are to come, such as the one on governance. The situation is concerning.

That said, the RTÉ licence fee should be paid. I do not accept the protestations that it should not be paid. Public service broadcasting is extremely important, particularly in the world of social media. I have articulated very genuine concerns about full Exchequer funding to media generally because any new system of funding would not be just for RTÉ, but for all public service content in all media, including local radio and national television. I identify two issues with it that have not been addressed by the commission and I spoke to the commission afterwards when the report was published. One issue is the question of independence, which is a very legitimate one.

Sinn Féin's instincts in terms of media have been fairly well demonstrated by its very serial suing of media. "[T]he number of legal actions that have been filed by Sinn Féin members points to a coordinated campaign against the media in Ireland". Those are not my words, but are from a joint letter signed by 15 individuals and international press freedom organisations. In November 2023 these freedom of expression advocates warned Deputy McDonald that the spate of defamation cases being taken by Sinn Féin TDs is having a chilling effect on democracy.

What about section 31?

Signatories to the letter included the Daphne Caruana Galizia Foundation. Many people feel the party's behaviour in that respect, and that co-ordinated behaviour, is one that is suppressing the media.

Irrespective of who is in government in the future, it is a legitimate question. It sounds great that we will pay all the bills and have full Exchequer funding, but it means any government in the future has a control over Irish media I am clear would not be a healthy one. Even if it was just about the allocation of resources with health, social protection, housing or whatever coming first, in the normal Estimates cycle where pressures come on for various expenditures - and there are finite resources no matter how well the economy is doing - there is always the potential for any government to put the pressure on, squeeze, reduce the funding or use the leverage with a view to controlling the message.

Is the Tánaiste talking about section 31?

That is a view people think Sinn Féin is at in terms of things.

It is interesting, because I never heard the Tánaiste mutter a word when former colleagues in his parliamentary party, for example, Colm Keaveney who served with the Tánaiste and sued the media and sued a journalist in the Irish Independent when he was in the parliamentary party. What about Frank O'Rourke, who is suing the media? John O'Donoghue, the former Ceann Comhairle, is suing the media in Kerry. What about former Senator Larry Butler? That is just me Googling in the last five minutes, so do not start this nonsense.

Before there was even a scandal in RTÉ the commission recommended getting rid of the TV licence and replacing it with Exchequer funding. The commission looked at all this. It looked at how to ensure independence. It talked about multi-annual funding that is voted on in the Dáil. The Government has decided to dismiss that. It says it wants a universal fee applied to every single household, another household charge. The commission is very clear that is not the approach we should be taking. TG4 is not licence fee-funded; it is Exchequer-funded. Is the Tánaiste suggesting there is interference with the editorial control of TG4? The reality is people have lost faith in RTÉ. People are being summonsed before the courts at a rate of 60 per day for non-payment of the TV licence. It is time to implement the commission's recommendations of three years ago to scrap the TV licence, replace it with Exchequer funding and put in place the multi-annual funding we need so RTÉ and other public service content media can thrive in future.

Again, I quoted reputable, independent people who monitor freedom of the press and of the media. Ireland enjoys one of the highest places in the world index on freedom of the media because of government behaviours. The bottom line is from the party leader down Sinn Féin has been systemic in its legal actions-----

People in glasshouses.

-----against the media, which are having a chilling effect. That needs to be put on record when the party is advocating a system that in my view would potentially have a negative impact on media in Ireland into the future, on its independence and indeed on its freedom.

That is nonsense. It is the commission that is advocating this.

It is a fair point I am making. The kind of populist response the party has articulated-----

It is the commission's response.

-----is pure populism. When I mention replacing the licence fee with a reduced universal fee - up to 70% were paying the RTÉ fee - that was advocated by the Oireachtas committees. Successive Oireachtas committees on media advocated that. It is not just my idea. The Oireachtas committee did it. We supported it in opposition. We did not play the populist card that everything can be paid at the end of the day.

The commission has recommended it. It is very disingenuous to describe the commission as populist. With respect, stop dithering on it.

He described you as populist.

They know the politics.

You describe yourselves as populist.

They are resigned to the politics as usual.

The Government is dithering on it. Its members need to talk to each other and come to a decision.

Out of respect to the next speaker, can we please conclude? We move to the Social Democrats and Deputy Cairns.

I send our sympathies to the families and friends of the young people who died and were injured in the horrific crash in Carlow last night. Such a shocking loss of so many young lives is devastating and my thoughts are with them today.

I will start with a quote:

The story for people with disabilities continues to worsen year after year. Access to therapies is simply appalling and respite care and opportunities for work for people with disabilities are very poor. The assessment of need statutory rules are continuously breached [...] We also know that the Government scrapped the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant [...] We have been waiting for the new scheme for four years and seven months, longer than the duration of the First World War. There is no excuse for this inertia and lack of progress.

The Tánaiste might recognise those words because they were delivered by him in opposition during Leaders' Questions in October 2017. Leo Varadkar was the Taoiseach then too. Maybe the Tánaiste can help me and point to one single thing that has changed in the intervening six and a half years other than the Tánaiste entering government. The only thing that comes to mind is it has now been 11 years since those transport schemes were scrapped, or to use the Tánaiste's analogy, more than twice the duration of the First World War, and still there is no replacement. Is it any wonder disabled people and parents of children with disabilities feel not just ignored by successive Governments but actively harmed? The consistent failure to provide basic supports is not just some kind of an inconvenience, but is ruining people's lives. It prohibits early intervention, results in social isolation and increased rates of poverty and ultimately prevents people from being able to live a full and independent life.

The delivery of disability services by this Government can be summarised by one word: failure. The failure starts early when children are left waiting for assessments and then denied access to essential therapies and it continues throughout a person's life, such as when you cannot access education, are locked out of employment or cannot get nearly the amount of personal assistance hours you need. The list goes on and on. It is infuriating for people to listen to the same broken promises from successive Governments for years. When the Tánaiste was in opposition he made lots of commitments to improve services. What does he have to say about those commitments? Tens of thousands of people are stuck on waiting lists. The only thing disabled people are guaranteed access to is a long waiting list. When is this going to change?

My questions are as follows: when will the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, be fully staffed? When will a new motorised transport grant be introduced? When will the Government ratify the optional protocol to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities?

The Deputy asked what has changed or what has developed. I will take education alone. There have been very significant developments since this Government was formed. Seven special schools have been established, and five of those are up and running. We focused on special education very quickly because, prior to that, there had not been the establishment of special schools. There are two in particular in the Cork area and a third under way. There has also been a very significant increase in the number of special needs assistants working in our schools over and above what was a very significant scheme, which I introduced back in 1998. I have had a lifelong interest in special needs education and I am very keen that we continue to improve resources.

Approximately 20,045 special education teachers will be available for allocation to schools in 2024. That is an increase of 20% compared with 2019-20, when the number was 16,626. By the end of this year, there will be 21,584 SNAs available to schools. That is an increase of more than 35%. Therefore, there has been a difference and there have been improvements in some areas of special needs provision. Back in the 2019-20 school year, that number stood at 15,000. Moving from 15,000 to 21,000 SNAs is a significant degree of progress on that front. Approximately 51,000 children participated in the summer programme last year, which was an increase of 300% over the 2019 figure. There are about 389 new special classes for this year, which gives us about 1,300 new special classes sanctioned over the past four years.

An agreement on section 39 pay and funding was reached in October. That had been raised in this House. Overall, as regards the health side, €700 million extra has been invested in disabilities between 2018 and 2023. Some 5 million hours of home support will be delivered this year in personal assistant and home support services. As regards children's disability services, approximately 800 whole-time equivalent posts in the CDNTs in recent years have been provided for in additional funding. Some 350 of those posts have been filled. There are issues around staffing vacancies due to staff movement. Remaining CDNT posts are at various stages of recruitment. People on disability allowance, blind pension and invalidity pension are €29 better off per week since the Government took office. We have brought in a range of cost-of-living supports for disability services in the cost-of-living package.

In respect of the disabled drivers and passengers scheme, which provides relief from VRT and VAT on the use of an adaptive car as well as an exemption from motor tax, approximately €80 million is provided. A new scheme is being developed. The senior officials group is meeting to bring that to a conclusion.

I will continue with another quote.

There is a very disappointing complacency - almost a smugness - in the ... response to issues of this kind. It is now standard practice and a mantra ... [to] just itemise what ... [is seen] as positives and so on but ... not deal with the hard questions that are asked.

Again, those are not my words; that was what the Tánaiste said to the Taoiseach when he fobbed him off back in 2017, just like the Tánaiste has just fobbed me off. I ask him again to please just deal with the questions I have asked him. When will the CDNTs be fully staffed? When will a new transport scheme be introduced? Am I to presume that is a "No" on the ratification of the optional protocol?

People have heard enough broken promises and enough itemisation of things like that. All they want are basic services, services the State has an obligation to provide and to which people have a right. Is it really too much to ask to be prioritised rather than forgotten, or for anybody in government to act with urgency? The Tánaiste has just listed off a few things. His long-term priority of special education needs has amounted to precisely zero special schools in Cork South-West. He referred to children's disability network teams. Not one of them is fully staffed. Pay parity for section 39 workers is still not there.

I did not fob off the Deputy.

Will the Tánaiste answer the questions, please?

What I did was challenge the assertions in the Deputy's contribution that zero had happened since the Government's formation. That is what she said in respect of special needs services generally, and I am entitled to do that when she raises what I believe to be a misleading presentation of the situation. That is not to say I do not recognise that serious issues remain, particularly in access to therapies. I have consistently said that in this House, both in opposition and in government, and I will continue to do that until I am satisfied that a sufficiency of therapies is available. It has not been for want of political will or funding. The HSE has had a model for quite some time-----

Will the Tánaiste answer the questions, please?

-----around progressing disability services, which I have had issues with and which I believe has been problematic and of a nature that has reduced children's access to therapies-----

Will the Tánaiste please answer the questions before his time is up?

-----whereas I want to increase children's access to therapies, particularly as regards special schools. I answered the Deputy's questions about CDNTs, the disability motorised scheme in terms of the work under way there, and the protocol, which the Government is examining.

Examining it for four years.

However, the more fundamental issue is to get services and to increase services.

I want to raise the issue of wind farms and the proposals to build them across rural Ireland. It has come to County Galway, where, right now, surrounding Tuam, there are four proposed wind farms. There are lots of issues with the wind farms. The turbines have become larger and higher. When the guidelines were introduced in 2006, the span of the blades was 50 m; now it is 186 m, and we still have the same distance from a house for the same type of turbine. Draft guidelines are in place but they do not have to be adhered to.

Second, let us take the places where they are being proposed, such as Belclare, in my area. It is right beside Knockmaa. A total of 120,000 to 130,000 people visit it every year and walk that hill and view the surrounding visual amenity that is there out onto Galway Bay. They will see these turbines facing them. In another place they are going into a bog, peatland. We cannot even cut the turf there, yet the proposal is to take out 14,000 cu. m of bog and put in 140 loads for every one turbine to set them up and to keep them structurally sound. There is something called the wake effect, which effectively means that wind comes back from the propellers. It is part of the whole system and it cools down the earth's surface such that grass will not be able to grow as well as it would normally for approximately 10 miles.

The other issue that is very worrying is that sulphur hexafluoride is being used in the turbines. The European Commission plans to ban that substance. It is so lethal that if it goes on fire, no fire brigade can go near it. If it spills out onto the ground, it will destroy the ground for thousands of years. It is a very small amount but all we need is one of the turbines to go on fire at any particular time. The EU recognises that this is a serious problem. It is bringing in new regulations that will commence sometime between 2026 and 2040 but in the meantime the turbines will keep using this gas.

The guidelines have been completely out of date since 2006. We have talked about new guidelines coming into being. The most significant issue, which the Tánaiste will recognise, is that communities are divided and up in arms as they are kept in the dark by the developers as to what is happening. This needs to be looked at. Can the Government not suspend the implementation of these wind farms until we get things right?

I appreciate the Deputy raising an important issue. More broadly, though, I have often reflected on how society has looked at these issues over the past 50 to 100 years. I recall the big protests about nuclear energy back in the 1970s-----

Dead right, but in the 1970s or 1980s there was never the same level of campaigning on fossil fuels. In fact, I can recall headlines in the 1970s and 1980s that we had struck oil as if it was a great panacea or achievement. We now know fossil fuels have been destroying the planet and have created an existential threat to the very survival of humankind. Yet, there was never the same agitation about that as there is about other aspects of renewables or even nuclear power. My problem with nuclear power is what to do with the waste. Over a 100-year lifespan, it has not been anywhere near as damaging as fossil fuels have been, not just in terms of climate but human health, what we breathe in, air quality and so on.

The move to renewables in Ireland has been very successful and effective in terms of the big picture and has led to a healthier atmosphere while also addressing the existential issue of climate change. It is an existential issue for us as humans and we should not understate that. We now have about 4.8 GW of onshore wind. We are a world leader in the levels of installed wind energy capacity per capita, as well as in the integration of variable renewable electricity onto the grid. Significant progress was made last year on a major programme to accelerate offshore and onshore renewable energy. The future is offshore energy. We had the first auction, the offshore renewable electricity support scheme, in May last year. A further round of auctions is due later this year. There will be a phased approach to offshore wind development. A task force has been established to drive that delivery.

I do not believe we should stall the development of onshore energy, but in time offshore will overtake onshore energy provision. The Deputy is correct on the guidelines. I acknowledge that the review has been ongoing for a number of years. It will address a number of key aspects, including noise, setback distance, shadow flicker, community obligation, community dividend and grid connections. The aim of the review is to strike an appropriate balance between the concerns of local communities while maintaining Ireland's ability to provide investment certainty. That includes bogland, biodiversity and walking areas. There are already requirements in terms of planning permissions around applications for wind farms and so on.

Nobody can deny that we need to move away from fossil fuels. We have the opportunity to do so by using solar on our roofs, which is less obtrusive and does not affect communities at large. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, described it as a roof revolution which would meet many of our targets.

Offshore energy is another area where we are lagging behind. We have the potential to become the new sheikhs of energy in the world by using the Atlantic, but we are lagging behind in trying to do that. Setting up task forces and all of that kind of thing is grand, but in the meantime I know of parents whose children will not look for or get planning permission near wind farms if they go ahead. We will do enormous damage to our communities. When I was in the Department, when we discussed the transition to greener energy we always spoke about the just transition. If the transition is not just, it should not happen. There is a huge onus on all of us to make sure that whatever innovation or new things come into play, they are tried and trusted and communities are not the people who suffer.

I thank the Deputy. I do not disagree with much of what he has said. The Climate Action Plan 2024 has set a revised timeline of quarter 4 of this year for the publication of the final wind guidelines and the Department is working towards meeting this commitment. It has to align with the new Planning and Development Bill 2023, which is currently undergoing the Oireachtas legislative process, and the ongoing review of the national planning framework. There will be a draft report, submissions will be sought from the public and so on.

In the first six months of 2023, emissions from electricity fell by 17% because of our renewables. In recent days, two thirds of our electricity was provided by renewable sources. It has been a success and very effective in transforming the situation. The Deputy is correct about the emphasis in the future being on offshore and solar energy. There will be some onshore. Some projects have been with An Bord Pleanála for the past two years and are awaiting decisions. I accept that the scale of the technology has escalated exponentially which has impacts and will limit onshore development.

I am very glad to get the opportunity to raise a number of concerns people in Kerry and Killarney have in regard to the massive number of Ukrainians who have been placed in hotels and guesthouses around the county. Over 35% of hotel beds in the town of Killarney are being taken up by refugees. People in Killarney, and all Kerry people, worked together for almost 150 years to bring the tourism product to where it was. However, as a result of a shortage of beds there has been a serious reduction in footfall. Many small restaurants, pubs, coffee shops and craft shops are struggling. In Killarney, six such businesses have already closed, as well as four in Killorglin and more in many other places. I ask the Government to address this serious situation immediately.

On housing, I ask for a very serious anomaly to be addressed. A local Killarney or Kerry person seeking to rent a private house will only get HAP or RAS from the State, which many homeowners will not entertain. Householders will get €800 per month tax free for housing Ukrainians. Local Kerry and Irish people do not have a hope of competing with that. I want the same tax exemption to apply to our own people who are trying to rent. There is no homeless centre in Killarney; homeless people have to go to Tralee. I do not have to say who is in that centre now.

I know the law on social welfare payments is changing for refugees who arrive here from now on. All of those who have arrived until now receive the same social welfare payments as Irish people, and we have been told they have all received a medical card and all of the entitlements that come with that. Many local people, even those who are sick and in need of a medical card, do not qualify for one. I want the same benefits and conditions to be made available to Irish people. They should all get the same ophthalmology and dental treatments.

For as long as I can remember, in order to qualify for free school transport a child had to be living more than two miles from the nearest primary school. This is not the case for Ukrainian children. They are all brought by school transport to national schools and there is no limit on distance. They get free transport. Secondary school students in Killarney have been travelling to Killorglin for years and do not qualify for free school transport. There are 11 Ukrainian children on one bus. I asked that 13 children from Killarney also be allowed to travel in order to fill the 24 seats on the bus, which was organised by the Minister for Education, but my request was turned down. I want our own people and children to get the same consideration as anyone else when it comes to school transport.

In respect of the situation with Ukrainians in this country, first of all, Russia invaded Ukraine savagely, illegally and, in my view, immorally and violated the UN Charter in so doing. It bombed towns, cities and civilian infrastructure. When the war started, I recall scenes of families packing trains and fathers and husbands saying goodbye to their loved ones. That has all been documented. It led to the largest displacement of European citizens since the Second World War.

Up to 12 million people have been displaced. Irish people welcomed Ukrainians into the country. These are refugees. The majority were women and children without strong incomes. This was part of a European directive in which Europe as a whole said we will look after Ukrainian people who are fleeing war. The position the Deputy has adopted is to try to contrast that - very unfairly and wrongly if I may say so, with respect - with the normal situation here in terms of entitlements to health and education services. These are refugees fleeing war. It is a correct and basic humanitarian response to try to do the best we can to facilitate people fleeing war in an obvious situation where apartment blocks are being bombed and so forth.

I am very surprised the Deputy referenced the €800 payment because those people volunteered their houses. Many were not actually looking for €800, which is paid per month, by the way. However, the Government felt that, over time, there would be costs attached to this for repairs. In some instances, the Irish Red Cross Society or local authority would say the building had to be brought up to a certain standard, people had to make sure the electrics were right and so forth. It was fair to say that to people who volunteered their own homes or houses they had or whatever. In some cases, they brought people into their own homes and let them have a room and access to the wider house. That is the context of the €800 payment. That is not going to be extended beyond its provision for people who said they had a spare property or whatever and they would make it available for people fleeing war. The State said it was very decent of them to do that and it would help them by paying €800. That is the context. To say that everybody should get it now on the same terms is not comparing like with like.

The rent-a-room scheme exists. We brought that in for anyone who could rent out a room to any person seeking accommodation and it creates significant tax reliefs.

Go raibh maith agat.

On the school front, we should pay tribute to our schools for the manner in which they have accommodated so many Ukrainian children-----

-----and integrated them into our system.

I have no problem with the Ukrainian people or any people from any other part of the world. Do not any one of you over there or over here behind me say that I have any gripe with any of them. The gripe I have is with the Tánaiste and the Government. If the Government is able to give €800 tax free to one section of society, it should be able to do it for the others as well. Irish people, Kerry people, cannot compete for a private house when the house owner is going to get €800 tax free. How could that be fair?

On the other issues, I have no spite in the world for the Ukrainian people or no gripe at all to tease out with them. It is with the Government. I want the same conditions applied across the board with regard to the medical card and school transport. It is happening. The 13 children I spoke about who were not let on the bus have to wait in Killorglin for half an hour for the rural link bus to come along. They are drowned waiting and perish in the cold all winter. The Tánaiste said to me I should not be raising these issues. I will make no apology for raising them on behalf of the people of County Kerry and Killarney or any part of the country.

I thank the Deputy.

Can the Tánaiste not see it going on in County Cork? Maybe he cannot because he is all over the world, and maybe he has to be-----

Go raibh maith agat.

-----but I can tell him it is happening in Cork the very same as in Kerry.

I ask the Tánaiste to respond.

All I want for the people of Kerry is fair play.

I have no gripe at all with the Ukrainian people.

Deputy, we are way over time.

I will not have anyone here saying I have.

Deputy, we are way over time.

First of all, I did not say the Deputy had and, second, I did not say he should-----

You said I should not have a gripe.

I did not. Go back over-----

You were surprised I raised it.

Go back over the blacks. You want to create a drama and create false assertions that I said you should not raise it.

I am creating no drama. I am telling the truth.

This is a new trope going around, that people have no right to raise these issues. I have seen it everywhere. I never said-----

That is what it sounded like.

I invite you to go back over the blacks, as we say, of this exchange. I challenge you to go back and find the sentence-----

I will challenge you any day of the week-----

No, I am sorry-----

-----and tell you the truth-----

Deputy, I did not interrupt you.

-----because I tell you the truth about what is going on every day that I come up here.

What I am trying to say, Deputy-----

The Tánaiste, please, through the Chair.

I am saying the Deputy made a false assertion that I said-----

I did not make anything false. It is false of the Tánaiste to say that.

Let the Tánaiste respond.

Will the Deputy let me reply, please?

Tánaiste, through the Chair. Thank you.

The Deputy said that I said he should not have raised it. I did not say that.

You did say that. That was your import. You did.

I did not say that at all.

No, I did not. Go and check it.

That was the import.

You were surprised when I raised it.

We are not doing this. Tánaiste, through the Chair, please.

On the medical card for Ukrainians, that is means-tested after nine months of being in the country. There is a rent-a-room scheme for €14,000 tax-free earnings already in place for Kerry people and everybody. The line that people cannot compete with €800 per month does not tally with me because that €800 is not for properties in the rental market but for people who decided, of their own free will, if they had a spare property, to say they would make available to a Ukrainian family because they are fleeing war. People made that decision out of the generosity of their hearts. I am not going to second-guess the generosity of Irish citizens who did that. The State feels it should give them some support.

Go raibh maith agat.

That €800 per month is not comparable to any rent anywhere.

It is a helping hand to those who generously gave up their properties.

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