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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 Feb 2024

Vol. 1050 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

School Transport

This is a tricky issue for a number of reasons. The Youghal town urban area has lost a school bus transport service that covered 120 children in the locality. It was a commercially-run service that operated for 54 years, predominantly by one private bus operator in the locality. It ran with great success servicing originally three and then two primary schools, and one post-primary school following the amalgamation of the three secondary schools in Youghal into one, Pobalscoil Na Tríonóide. The bus served Gaelscoil Choráin, Bunscoil Mhuire and Pobalscoil Na Tríonóide.

Youghal town has long had significant social needs. It is a commuter town from where many people commute to places such as Dungarvan, Cork city, Little Island, Carrigtwohill and other major centres of employment. This often requires parents to be on the road early in the morning to get to their places of work. This commercial bus service was vital for working families in particular to get their children to and from their place of education. The topography of Youghal is also an interesting factor in this. It is a very hilly town. It is not necessarily an easy walk to get to the secondary school in particular from the residential communities. The service was of unique benefit locally.

From the perspective of more recent developments in Youghal town we now have one of the largest international protection accommodation services, IPAS, centres in the country. There is also a major inconsistency, unfortunately, whereby children who are resident in the facility are being brought to and from the local schools by bus transportation and local children have lost the commercial bus service to which they had access. One service is subsidised by the State and the other is not because there was a successfully running commercial bus enterprise.

The reason the enterprise stopped, and we have engaged with the bus operator in good faith, is that it did the analysis on how it worked and saw it was just not working out financially any more because of the rising cost of doing business. The operating model was that people were being charged €55 for a place for a child on the bus. This rose to €60 for two children and €65 for three. Unfortunately, when the numbers were analysed, it was not working out. It was quite an expensive service for those using it but it was appreciated because it covered the commuting issue for local children. Three buses were used, with the secondary school run done first and the primary school run afterwards.

My ask is unique. It is about a community that has done an awful lot to help with migration. It is about a community where there is a need for Government intervention in this situation. While I acknowledge that this is a commercial service, I also acknowledge that there is great sensitivity. I would like to see the Government and the Department of Education recognise that this is an exceptional circumstance, whereby Youghal town has already done so much, particularly the local schools, to bring Ukrainian and other families from across the world who have been hosted in the town into the community through integration, with very few issues arising. It is important to reflect on this. I appreciate that the Minister is not here this evening, but I know the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, will be replying. I will be interested to hear what the Government has to say.

I thank Deputy O'Connor. I would like to confirm what is the ask specifically.

It is that we have some degree of recognition for the private bus service and, perhaps, funding for it in some fashion through the community benefit fund or the community recognition fund to restore what we have lost, which was school transport for 120 children.

I understand. I will pass that information on to the Minister. I just was not clear exactly what the ask was.

Following Government permission to do so, earlier today, the Minister announced a significant review of the school transport scheme, which is important. It is very important with regard to this question specifically for the town. Deputy O'Connor is correct that the contractor was a private contractor and, as such, it was not operated by Bus Éireann as part of the school transport scheme. Bus Éireann has advised that it provides nine school transport services to primary and post-primary schools in the Youghal area.

It is very important to highlight the review of the school transport scheme. This is a significant operation managed by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department of Education and, as I understand it, the relationship is with Bus Éireann. In the current school year, more than 161,000 children, including more than 135,000 pupils, travel on primary and post-primary services. The cost of the scheme in 2023 was €382 million. There has been an overall increase in applications and tickets issued in the 2023-24 school year compared with the previous year. It is a very important service for families, whether through a commercial service or another service. The service of getting children to and from school is extremely important. Today, the Minister announced a significant review of this.

As the Deputy is aware, and I know Deputies have raised issues regarding the operation of this in the past, a review has been conducted. This has now been completed. The review was conducted with a view to examining the scheme, its broader effectiveness and suitability to ensure it services students and their families adequately.

Today, the Government gave permission to the Minister to publish the School Transport Scheme 2030 report, which marks the largest review of the scheme since it was established. The Government is committed to working to achieve the report’s recommendation of expanding access to the scheme so that an additional 100,000 pupils can be accommodated by 2030.

Throughout the review and as one would expect, the value of the scheme has been apparent. It not only plays an important part in supporting children's access to education, but also aligns with wider Government objectives in sustainability and reducing the number of individual car journeys.

Overall, the recommended changes to the future operation concern the expansion of the current eligibility criteria, addressing current operational challenges where they exist, charges and grants, and moving towards better integration with public transport over time to ensure optimum value for money. A phased implementation of the review’s recommendations will commence in September 2024. This will include a shared effort between the Departments of Education and Transport to pilot and introduce greater integration of the roll-out of transport networks with school transport routes.

I appreciate this only happened today, so this is the first opportunity for the Minister to provide an update, but I suggest to the Deputy that the best opportunity for ensuring the needs of his constituents in Youghal are met is the early review in 2024. As I understand the matter, the relationship with the commercial contractor is not one envisaged by the Department and the school transport scheme as currently laid out.

The Minister of State acknowledged the issue, that of a commercial bus operator. A secondary issue is that, according to information I have been reading today about the current and revised systems, the distance calculation for where the concessionary bus tickets kick in will exclude an urban town like Youghal under the current system as well as the reformed system up to 2030. I raised these issues with the Minister for Education at one of our parliamentary party briefings. We had a system that worked well. From an environmental point of view, it kept a significant number of cars off the road. From a quality of life perspective, it was very beneficial to families who relied on it, be they working households or households without vehicular transport to take their children to the relevant primary or post-primary schools in the morning.

A third issue is the one that worries me the most. There is a feeling locally, one that I just want to acknowledge, that the State is paying for transport for people living in the former Quality Hotel and other locations where IPAS accommodation is being provided when a commercial bus company has withdrawn its service, which is not the fault of the State but does affect 120 children locally. Could a request for the community benefit fund be made by the Department of Education to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys’s Department or could the former examine its own resources and budgets to see whether funding could be found for individual situations? It is important for towns like Youghal that there be an acknowledgment that they have taken on a very heavy burden. They need additional support from the Government where it is deemed appropriate.

I might suggest that the Deputy take that up directly with the Minister in the parliamentary party meeting to place priority on it.

That has been done.

It is for the Minister for Education to make such a determination. The review of the school transport scheme has been going on for a long time. It commenced in February 2021 and was conducted over three phases. I am told that work will begin on planning for a reduction in the distance criteria that the Deputy highlighted from 2025 to 2026, so there is still a ways to go. That work is very important, although it will not be of much assistance to the children who need to get to school tomorrow. As to whether the Department of Education can provide additional interim resources, I must refer the Deputy to the Minister. I am afraid it is not part of the information I have been given this evening.

I thank the Minister of State.

Home Care Packages

This matter has been raised with me by families with elderly parents or relatives trying to get home care and by commercial providers of home care. They find that the number of hours being allocated and the way those are allocated means there is quite a long delay. Where someone has been looking for home care and the HSE has exhausted its efforts to find someone who has worked with the HSE to provide that, private contractors are contacted, but those contractors are finding that the person has been waiting quite a while for a decision to be made about home care provision.

I shall cite some figures. During the very difficult period of Covid, the HSE in the South/South West Hospital Group area had more than 1,800 home care providers. I understand that, once Covid ended - we were all delighted to see the end of it in real terms - more than 400 people decided not to work in the area any further. That was a drop of 400 out of 1,800 people. The HSE has worked hard to get replacement people but it has not been successful. While it has replaced some, it has not replaced all of the 400. Therefore, there is now a reduction in real terms in the number providing home care within the HSE. This has given rise to the need to go to other providers. I believe there are well over 20 providers of home care, which find themselves being contacted at a far later stage. Although we might want to get people out of hospital in a timely manner, families are reluctant to take the risk of having people come home unless they know there is a support package in place.

In fairness, all of the HSE staff in hospitals and out in communities work extremely hard, but there still seems to be a disconnect in how we can get a better co-ordination of services and deliver them in a timely manner so that people not only get the home care they require, but that it is put in place at the earliest possible date.

I wish to discuss the hours allocated. In a number of cases recently, I found that the hours allocated were not sufficient even though there were people available to provide them. When I made representations on it, it was followed through, but it should not be up to families or relatives to have to approach a public representative to have the number of hours increased. These were genuine cases. I am talking about elderly people living on their own who may not have immediate family living close to them but who need someone coming in, not just once per day but at least twice if not three times per day, to ensure they are adequately looked after in terms of meals and the care they require. It is in that context that I am raising this matter, which relates to the South/South West Hospital Group. My understanding is the private sector is contacted at a very early stage in all group areas except in the south. As a result, where the HSE does not have the staff to provide the care, there is a delay in providing it.

I thank the Deputy for raising what is an important issue for everyone in the House and the people we represent. A key focus of the Sláintecare reform programme is recognising, facilitating and enabling older people to age well at home and in their communities for as long as possible. Therefore, improving access to home support is a priority for the Government. Since budget 2021, we have provided approximately €230 million in additional funding for that service. The preliminary data indicates that more than 22 million hours of home support were provided in 2023, which was more than had ever been delivered and exceeded the HSE’s target for the year. While that is important, it requires good management, and the Deputy correctly highlighted some of the difficulties TDs, including me, hear about in their constituencies. It is important we have a continual focus on the management processes of these initiatives.

The HSE has reported that in Cork and Kerry, there are currently 8,293 people receiving the home support service with over 33,000 hours of support being provided. Within Cork Kerry Community Healthcare, I am told 75% of the service is provided directly by the HSE, with 25% delivered by external providers.

The Deputy's question is about the process by which the request is advised to private providers in cases where the HSE cannot provide it. I am told that the HSE advises that when a request for service is received, its priority is to identify availability to deliver that support and that a request for home support will always be sent to private providers if the HSE does not have available staff to allocate to the service. The Deputy correctly asks whether that is done within a day, a week or six weeks, because all of that is time mounting for a family with somebody who needs very specific care. I am told from follow-up queries to the Department, which I am grateful to it for, that this can happen on the same day but it typically happens within the week. The HSE provides CHO-specific lists of approved providers and asks clients to indicate first if they have a preference. If they do not, the HSE issues an email alert to all providers in that CHO and the first one to indicate availability gets the work. That is a little further clarity on this.

It is important to point out that both the HSE and private providers are currently experiencing similar recruitment and retention issues for staff. It is a priority for the Government to try to bring more people into this country to address the shortage of care workers. It is a key challenge for the Department of enterprise to make sure that can happen and indeed for the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, with apprenticeships and bringing people into different pathways so that we can meet the needs. Efforts are continuing in Cork Kerry Community Healthcare to increase capacity by recruiting staff. Since the introduction of the current recruitment pause, derogation has been sought and granted for 49 health care assistant staff, but of course those people have to be available to be able to be hired.

I have been told this evening by the Department, and am grateful for its answers to my follow-up queries, that September 2023 figures show there were 1,495 HSE home support staff in the Cork-Kerry area in CHO 4, with 929 whole-time equivalents. I am told that is the highest of all the CHOs. That is to provide a little extra clarity to the Deputy. This is a question of management and quick responses to constituents. There is no doubt that we need to continue to rely on private providers where we are not able to meet the need in the HSE but those private providers have an obligation to respond quickly and efficiently and to make sure the care is met as soon as may be.

I thank the Minister of State. I think the answer confirms what I was saying. For instance, the Minister of State talked about 25% being provided by the private sector. My understanding is that in other areas, it is far higher than 25%. The concern I have is the fact that it is confirmed that only 25% is provided by the private sector. I said to the Minister of State that three years ago, more than 1,800 people were working in the HSE providing home care. More than 400 people left for various reasons because it was a tough time for anyone providing home care during the Covid period. The Minister of State has confirmed to me that there are now only 1,495. In fact, all of the places that became vacant have not been filled, yet we are still only bringing in the private sector for 25%.

I will give one example. I have a case where someone was 90 years of age, living on their own and having to use a walking frame to move around their own house. All they got in home care was one hour per week. This issue needs to be reviewed by the HSE in the Cork-Kerry region. Can we provide additional hours by engaging with the private sector and also making sure that we can provide them in a timely manner?

Remember that the cost of a nursing home bed in the HSE is €1,800 per bed per week. When provided by the private sector in a private nursing home, it is around €1,150 per bed per week. One could provide an awful lot of home care for €1,800 per week. That is why I am saying that where people need additional hours, we should be trying to provide them so that families do not have to decide that the only option is for Mary, Michael or Pat to have to go into a nursing home. It is really important that we work towards getting the additional hours and getting support for people to keep them in their own homes for as long as possible.

I agree with the Deputy. It is important to highlight that notwithstanding that this is the highest number in all the different regions, we are still not meeting the need. While we recognise that there are recruitment challenges, both for the public and private sector, the emphasis on management of resources and management from the perspective of the user is still very important. An hour a week appears to me to be a grossly undermet need.

I stood in a constituent's house this week, looking at the care schedule for a gentleman in Carysfort Downs in Blackrock. I looked at all the different carers who were coming in. There were five or six carers every day. This man is at a period of acute need in his life. Looking at the management processes, some carers come two or three times a week, but there are five or six different people a day. One has to wonder about the management of that, given the scale of the resources being provided to the private provider. From the perspective of this gentleman's wife, the absence of continuity of care for her means she has to explain what is different every time. One wonders about the cost of this and the customer service or client focus that is being delivered. It seems curious that so many different carers are needed for a single individual and that they cannot be rostered in a way that provides the best continuity of care, the best support and the best relationship development. There are questions around the management of this. Coming to it from the perspective of the person's need is by far the most important thing.

We are struggling with a recruitment challenge. It is important that we have people in this country to be able to meet the need. If we want to have people at home for as long as possible, then we need more healthcare assistants. I am afraid this is linked to questions of migration that come up again and again. This issue is important in highlighting that with a growing population that is ageing more and more, there will be a greater need for more people in this country who will be ready and available to provide the sorts of services that the Deputy and I would like to see for our constituents.

Recycling Policy

We have heard a lot of talk in the past few months about the new deposit return scheme. The scheme is welcome and the vast majority realise it is important because people want to do the right thing. However, the company, Re-Turn, tasked with rolling out the scheme did not do the right thing by disabled people. In 2018, Ireland ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Article 4(3) of that convention states that consultation with disabled people and their representative organisations, disabled persons organisations, DPOs, should take place on all Government or public body schemes or programmes. I know of one organisation that was consulted a number of months ago by the company and told it would be back to it for consultation, but no follow-up was done. I am not aware of any other consultation with any organisations or individuals.

I think it is obvious that there was no consultation. I am not sure if the Minister of State has used the machines yet but I did for the first time at the weekend. The place where one inserts the bottles and cans is at my eye level. The machines are too high for wheelchair users to reach either where one inserts the bottles or cans or to reach the receipt for what they have put in. There are also no Braille markings or raised areas on the logo to make them readable for blind people or people with visual impairments. Many people who do not have access to transport, have mobility issues and order their shopping online and have it delivered are being charged 15 cent or 25 cent, the same as the rest of us, but they cannot return the items to retrieve their deposit. To quote an advocate, the newly introduced deposit return scheme is effectively a "stealth tax” for people with disabilities who are unable to return the containers.

How can an online shopper with a disability who is unable to get to one of the shops equipped with the machines recoup the additional expense? One of the people who has engaged with me on this topic told me there is a boil water notice in place for the last nine months where she lives. She has no option but to buy bottled water. She will now pay 25 cent extra per bottle with no way of recouping that. The Minister says the only people who will pay more are those who will not bring back the bottles but there was no thought for those who cannot bring back the bottles. Anyone with a disability who does not drive or who is not able to bring their bottles or cans back will be charged and yet not be able to recoup the money. Setting up an accessibility consultation group to review issues such as these is not good enough. This shows there was a complete lack of consultation with disabled people's organisations or disabled individuals prior to the launch of the scheme.

If there was, it was simply a box-ticking exercise and the concerns of the DPOs and disabled individuals were simply ignored.

In 2018, Greenpeace, the environmental NGO, stated, "As we move to rid our oceans, beaches, and parks of unnecessary single-use plastics, disabled people shouldn't be used as a scapegoat by large corporations or governments who are unwilling to push suppliers and manufacturers to produce a better solution." On Committee Stage of the Circular Economy, Waste Management (Amendment) and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill 2022, the Minister did not accept an amendment that would have allowed the Minister to make regulations excluding an environmental levy charge on customers for certain single-use items where those items are required by that person due to a disability. The Minister stated that the circular economy strategy was significantly amended in the Dáil and now included a specific requirement on the Minister to take the national disability inclusion strategy and the roadmap for social inclusion into account when making the circular economy strategy. However, he obviously did not take them into account. It is a pity that one of the Ministers from the Department is not here. I know they cannot be and I thank the Minister of State for being here to take the question. I want to know how the Minister is going to address these issues.

I appreciate Deputy Tully raising this important issue on the practicality of the new return scheme and how it will work for everybody, and where there are difficulties, how they will be addressed and fixed. This scheme has obviously been in development for a number of years. To inform the design of the scheme, the Department undertook two public consultations in 2020 and 2021 on how it should operate. Since its appointment as the DRS operator in July 2022, Re-Turn has consulted widely with stakeholders to help prepare for the introduction of the deposit return scheme. We are obliged under the single-use plastics directive to recycle 90% of our plastic bottles by 2029, so we have a practical problem about how we are going to do that.

It is a national infrastructure project, which operates primarily on a return to retail model, but the Deputy highlights the issue of how you are supposed to manage this if you have received them by delivery. That is quite a practical example. Retailers are required to charge customers a deposit for the bottle sold, and to take back empty containers and refund the deposit to customers, as the Deputy well knows. Retailers are also required to ensure the take-back facility they provide is accessible for anybody wishing to return empty containers. I understand Re-Turn continues to engage widely with all stakeholders and has committed to reviewing accessibility practices concerning the needs of consumers. This is an early problem that has been highlighted and that I will certainly highlight to my ministerial and constituency colleague, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to get a further answer. However, I understand the review being conducted includes working with the National Disability Authority. The authority is supporting Re-Turn on the establishment of a consultative group to ensure the concerns of all parties, in particular those who have identified difficulties accessing the deposit return scheme and in returning bottle and cans, are heard and addressed. I hope that will be as soon as may be. I understand Re-Turn intends to convene the first meeting of this forum in the second half of March, in the next number of weeks. It has invited a number of disability organisations to assist in a review of the scheme's infrastructure. I hope the Deputy will also have an opportunity to contribute to that in some way.

The deposit return scheme represents one of the biggest efforts at changing consumer behaviour in some decades. Inclusivity is essential if it is going to work. An extensive national communications campaign is under way to ensure every member of the public is aware of and understands what DRS is and how it operates. I am told individuals who have difficulties returning bottles and cans to their local retailer should contact Re-Turn directly and it will work with the local retail community to find a solution that works for all involved. Re-Turn is committed to ensuring locations are accessible, but it will need feedback from people like Deputy Tully, constituency TDs and me to highlight where there are practical issues, as there will be with the roll-out of any new scheme like this. In answer to the Deputy's question, I have not tried to return anything yet, but now that we have discussed it tonight, I definitely will tomorrow.

There are two parts here. There are people who cannot, due to mobility or lack of transport or due to a disability or age, return what they have bought online, and there are the machines themselves. One suggestion is a scheme worked out with the shop that delivers to incorporate a collection where a receipt could be issued. When they come next time to deliver the shopping, they can collect and give a receipt.

They can use that as a coupon online on their next shop. Another suggestion was that a register of those who cannot return their bottles and cans could be drawn up, a regular collection organised, a receipt issued and the people would be able to submit that receipt to Revenue for reimbursement, similar to how receipts for petrol and diesel under the disabled driver and disabled passenger scheme are submitted and refunded. I think that one can be resolved by Re-Turn working with the various shops. There is precedent for these types of schemes in other European jurisdictions. I am told the scheme in Denmark has been operating successfully for 20 years, and it operates something like the Revenue return, where you submit your receipt and get your money back.

The machines being inaccessible is going to be more difficult to address, because the machines obviously cost a lot of money and are already in place. I do not know how many have been rolled out. I think it is approximately 2,000, but I am not sure of that figure. I am not sure if any of them are accessible. None of those I have seen locally are. They have to be addressed. It seems an awful waste of money that they were not made accessible to all from the start. I do not know if the company did proper consultation because that issue would have been raised with it. We had issues with ATMs that were too highly placed in the wall and it had to be made sure going forward they were all at a lower level to facilitate all users.

The Minister of State spoke about talking to Re-Turn. I know someone who contacted it, was not getting very far, asked to speak with someone in management, and was told that management does not engage with the public. I do not know if that is the right attitude either. The Ministers involved with this say we have to green-proof all our policies, and I absolutely agree with that, but I think our Ministers need to disability-proof their policies as well, going forward.

The Deputy must forgive me that I do not have more detailed information on the consultation that took place in advance of this scheme being introduced. It would appear to me to be a totally obvious and natural thing to consult disability groups. That may have happened. I cannot answer regarding the number that are accessible, but there are more than 2,300 return points operational from 1 February. The vast majority of those are automated collection. There are almost 2,200 of them. Some retailers have opted for a manual, over-the-counter collection system.

In the roll-out of any new scheme, it is essential that feedback can be clearly delivered in some way and there is a forum for raising practical problems. Practical problems are to be expected, but it is how you react to them and address them that matters. I am sure its representatives are not staying up late to watch this tonight, but I do hope Re-Turn and its representatives see that there is an expectation by constituency TDs that where practical problems are raised, a mechanism is found to respond, identify, log them and that ways are found to solve them. We are going to try to change consumer behaviour to have people really engage in this. People buy their goods in different ways. Some get them by delivery without ever going near the shops. How are they going to engage? Rather than simply putting up the cost to change consumer behaviour, this scheme will have to respond to the needs of people and their behaviours and the habits. I thank the Deputy for raising this very practical question tonight. It is a very important part of our environmental policy and I am glad everyone supports it.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.58 p.m. go dtí 9.10 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 28 Feabhra 2024.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.58 p.m. until 9.10 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 February 2024.
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