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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2024

Vol. 1050 No. 4

Employment (Collective Redundancies and Miscellaneous Provisions) and Companies (Amendment) Bill 2023: Report and Final Stages

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 6, between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following:

“(b) by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (1):

“(1A) Where a European Works Council stands established pursuant to the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996 in relation to the employment in which it is proposed to create collective redundancies, the employer or responsible person shall, in addition to the requirements of subsection (1), with a view to reaching agreement, initiate consultation with the European Works Council.”,”.

The Minister of State will be aware that representatives of both Irish and European trade unions as well as Irish and European businesses stakeholders, along with the European Commission, have identified that the Irish legislation transposing the European works council, EWC, directive, the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996, as amended, fails to make it clear that disputes involving EWCs can be referred to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, in the first instance, and then to the Labour Court for a legally binding decision. It appears that the Department rejects this argument and points to recent references of EWC disputes to the WRC and now to the Labour Court.

However, these disputes concern individual members of EWCs who believe that their rights have been denied. The Department’s position does not address the point that EWCs as collective bodies do not appear to have a right of access to the WRC or the court. This leaves us out of line with other EU jurisdictions.

Substantial disputes can arise between EWCs and management when job losses involving collective redundancies occur, which come under the remit of what we are discussing. The amendment makes it clear that where Irish-based European works councils need to be informed and consulted over job losses or redundancies, they will have access to the State’s dispute resolution procedures if the need arises. This would be a first step in correcting the gaps in the legislation.

The Minister of State may take the position that the EU Commission will soon publish proposals to revise the EWC directive and changes to the Irish legislation should await the outcome of that process. With EU Parliament elections nearly upon us, and a new Commission to be appointed, it could be four to five years at the earliest before Irish EWC law would be changed. That is too long to wait to correct a problem that we could correct here this afternoon.

I thank the Deputy for the amendment and I appreciate the rationale with which I am not in massive disagreement, as we have discussed. However, as we discussed on Committee Stage, I cannot accept this amendment, which appears to require the employer or responsible person to initiate consultations with a European works council, where established, on proposed collective redundancies. This is in addition to the consultation with employees' representatives. Under law, EWCs have a specific remit which is to facilitate information and consultation with employees on transnational issues. The operation of EWCs is governed by the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996. Therefore, I have a number of concerns with this proposal.

First, as the Deputy pointed out, in January the European Commission published its proposal for an amending directive underpinning the European works council. The general objective of this initiative is to improve the effectiveness of the framework for the information and consultation of employees at transnational level. As I advised the Deputy on Committee Stage, my understanding is that the Belgian Presidency has convened a working party on this matter and a second working party meeting will take place by the end of February. The ambition is to reach general agreement by the end of the Presidency. On that point, I will have an EPSCO meeting on 11 and 12 of March in Belgium under the Belgian Presidency. I have reached out to the Belgian minister - my equivalent - asking for a direct bilateral meeting solely to deal with this issue to take it forward and make sure that we continue to push forward.

I agree with the Deputy that having this come in in four or five years is not acceptable. It can be achieved much sooner, regardless of European Parliament elections or the installation of a new Commission in November. That is my intention in that regard. That is in the next two and a half weeks. It is best to ensure that the legal provisions relating to transnational employer obligations maintain a level playing field. It is only appropriate that developments at EU level are ultimately reflected in the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996.

Second, it appears the amendment would require consultation with the EWC, where established, even if collective redundancies are only proposed in the Irish establishment and not in establishments in other member states. This is not what the European works councils were designed to work on. If collective redundancies are proposed by an employer in two or more member states, the employer is obliged to follow the local jurisdiction's laws in each case. If there is a transnational element to the proposed collective redundancies, information and consultation with employees under the EWC may also be required. This is already codified in the 1996 Act.

Third, it seems likely that adding a direct requirement to consult with an EWC could extend the timeline and complexity of the consultation process significantly. This would not be in the interests of employees who would face into a projected period of uncertainty at an already difficult time. For the reasons I have outlined, I will not support the amendment.

I wish to press the Minister of State on the timetable for that. I acknowledge reference to the very best efforts and all that, but I have a genuine concern that we will be back here in four or five years with this issue still not resolved. I would like more information on the timeline. I appreciate the Minister of State has sought a bilateral meeting in two and a half weeks. What is the likely outcome? Does he expect that this matter will be substantially resolved by the end of the Belgian Presidency or will continue past that? In his response he might outline how this might continue through the European elections and potentially into the establishment of a new Commission. While it might be an important issue for some people, it might not get to the top of the new Commission's agenda immediately.

While I am assuming this is happening anyway, I ask the Minister of State to confirm that there is ongoing engagement with the relevant trade unions. In this case I think it is almost exclusively SIPTU, but not entirely. SIPTU representatives have consulted with me and have also appeared before our committee.

On the Deputy's first point, three meetings have taken place on this since we last met, which was in Nemours on 10 January. There was an intention to have general agreement by the end of the Belgian Presidency. As to what will happen then and the impact on the EU's ordinary legislative process, I can only speak from experience and 15 years of working at a European Union level and everything that goes into it. We will have European elections on 7 June in this jurisdiction and across all member states on that weekend and, therefore, the parliament will have its first sitting in July. Committees will be allocated and the first substantive work will start in September. Member states will indicate their likely nominees to the new Commission in late June or early July. There will be hearings, which need to conclude by the middle of November. That is the very latest for the process to be done.

Regarding legislation, where there is a general agreement, obviously the Belgian Presidency will conclude in July and the Hungarian Presidency will then take over. That is the last of their Trio. They have already asked us for a bilateral meeting at the last EPSCO meeting. We were not able to fulfil that for wider political reasons, the details of which I do not need to get into in this Chamber. We will discuss that further with them.

The following Trio Presidency is when an Irish Presidency will take place in 2026. I would love to say I will be the Minister in that place and time but we all know that, whether we like it or not, there will be a general election in this jurisdiction before that. Perhaps either Deputy O'Reilly or I will be here to push it forward in some guise.

That is the rough outline of what we are looking at but we will see something put forward by the end of June, going into the next Presidency.

In terms of contact, I have had brief discussions and officials have engaged, more so with congress. I am happy to meet SIPTU directly in due course.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 11, to delete line 4 and substitute the following:

“(b) an employees’ recognised trade union and/or an employees’ representative.”.”.

This amendment seeks to insert that when a petition for the winding-up of a company is being made to the High Court, employees and their recognised trade unions are notified. The ICTU recommended to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment that this should be extended, for the avoidance of doubt, to include a trade union of which the employees are members.

The legislation before us imposes an obligation on the directors of a company to inform employees or their representative of the intention to seek the winding-up of a company. The proposed new subsection (1A) to be inserted in section 571 of the Companies Act 2014 simply refers to an obligation to inform employees. I believe it should also expressly provide that a trade union would be entitled to be heard by the High Court in the application for the winding-up of a company. That is, in fairly simple terms, what this amendment seeks to do.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their engagement on my amendments, which has been fantastic. Any amendments I have proposed have been in line with strengthening this and making it more inclusive. That is exactly what this is intended to do. While it might seem unlikely a trade union would be left out, making them explicitly part of it means they would explicitly be part of the legal process.

I appreciate the Deputy's intentions but I cannot accept this amendment. The intent behind the section is to oblige directors to notify employees and their representatives, where they exist in the company concerned, of the petition they have filed at court. The court, under a consequential amendment by section 21 to section 572 of the Companies Act, could have regard to whether the company has met this obligation when making the winding-up order. Employees' representatives are generally the trade union officials or local shop stewards who are also employees and their duties and responsibilities are set out in the WRC code of practice, which I know Deputy O'Reilly of all Deputies is extremely familiar with.

The Government supports the right of any worker to join and be active in a trade union; however, it is not intended to include provisions specific to any type of employee, that is to say, trade union members or non-trade union members, as would be the effect of the amendment.

As I explained on Committee Stage, it may also be difficult to assess what constitutes the employee's recognised trade union where it is not recognised by the employer. There may be more than one union or there may be very few members as a proportion of the total employees.

I am confident the enhanced rights to information conferred on employees by this section as it stands are robust and unambiguous. It is not obvious the amendment would enhance rights of employees and it appears possible it would introduce a degree of uncertainty. For those reasons, I cannot accept the amendment.

That underlines the need for us to get the minimum wage directive adopted as soon as possible to clear up issues around a multi-union environment. The Minister of State accepted my bona fides on this. The intention is not to do anything other than be helpful. The concern is not addressed in the legislation.

I understand the point the Minister of State makes that if there are ten workers and nine of them are in nine separate unions, it could get messy. In truth, that does not happen. People are not stupid. They join the best vehicle to represent them. In an organisation with 100 people in one union, the 101st person will not go off to a union on their own. It rarely happens. For the most part, people understand the value of collective action and representation and conduct their business like that, so the likelihood is they would be part of the trade union. I understand what the Minister of State is saying about potential unintended consequences but I do not see those.

On the basis that we have debated this, I do not think either of us will change our mind but my position on it stands.

I appreciate what the Deputy is trying to do and do not doubt it. The difference between intention and what happens in practice and possible legal interpretation, unfortunately, is too confusing in this case in terms of an act of law.

On the minimum wage directive, we had a debate on this in this House. Meetings of the high level working group continue at pace and I reiterate that I will ensure they continue at pace to get a speedy resolution.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 13, after line 32, to insert the following:

“Amendment of Act of 2014

28. The Act of 2014 is amended by the insertion of the following sections after section 621:

“Power of the Court to return assets which have been improperly transferred

621A. (1) The court has the following power where, on the application of the Minister or the liquidator and/or employee representative and employees’ recognised trade union in respect of a situation in which collective redundancies have arisen in circumstances in which the employer is insolvent, it can be shown that—

(a) the employer is unable to fully discharge the debts owing to the employees,

(b) any property of the company of any kind whatsoever was disposed of either by way of conveyance, transfer mortgage, security, loan or in any way whatsoever whether by act or omission, direct or indirect, and

(c) the effect of such a disposal is to perpetrate a fraud on the company’s employees by leaving inadequate resources to discharge the entitlements of the employees who are subsequently made redundant as a result of the employer’s insolvency.

(2) The power of the court is to order, if it deems it just and equitable to do so, any person who appears to have—

(a) the use, control or possession of the property concerned, or

(b) the proceeds of the sale or development of that property, to deliver it or them, or pay any sum in respect thereof, to the liquidator on such terms or conditions as the court thinks fit.

(3) If the Minister makes a payment to employees pursuant to section 10 of the Protection of Employees (Employers’ Insolvency) Act 1984, then the Minster shall have the right to make an application under subsection (1) in order to recover the sum expended.

Preferential Creditor status for employees

621B. (1)Assets or value accrued pursuant to section 621A, form part of the assets of the employer for the purposes of the liquidation and shall be distributed in accordance with section 621.

(2) Notwithstanding the generality of the foregoing, payments due to discharge the entitlements of the employees who have been made redundant as a result of the employer’s insolvency shall have priority to all other debts.”.”.

I thank the Minister of State and, with no disrespect to him, I particularly thank his officials who have been generous with their time and information, have worked with us and been brilliant. I appreciate that the Minister of State's officials have communicated the Government position and the implications of the legal advice. However, I want to press this amendment.

The amendment seeks to provide protection for employees in collective redundancy cases where the employer is insolvent and to give power to the High Court to return assets that have been improperly transferred and to give preferential status to employees. It builds on the recommendations of the Duffy Cahill report to ensure that limited liability and corporate restructuring are not used to avoid a company's obligations to its workers.

For years, workers, trade unions, and Opposition politicians have been seeking legislative protections for workers' collective agreements. The Government outlined its intentions to deliver legislative improvements in the area through this Bill. While any improvement in this area is welcome, Sinn Féin has been clear the Bill does not address the situation whereby workers are treated as unsecured creditors for the purposes of their collectively bargained redundancy agreements. This means debt to the workers is not prioritised along the same lines as wages and statutory redundancy. This matter should be addressed, and it is for that reason I propose this amendment.

During collective redundancy cases in the event of liquidation, the phrase “a company's obligations to its employees” is used frequently used, as it was used in the Duffy Cahill report, and it is on this point that I am focusing with this amendment. We cannot have companies engaging in what are known as tactical insolvencies, whereby they break a company up into different components, sell off the parts that are profitable and walk away with the money, leaving the operational parts intact and the State and workers having to shoulder all the liabilities. On several occasions, we have seen tactical liquidations used by companies to make workers immediately redundant and deny them their collective redundancy entitlements. While every situation is unique, the overarching aim of what was done with Debenhams, Clerys, Paris Bakery, TalkTalk, and La Senza, to name a few, was to defraud workers and, effectively, the State. Therefore, I hope there will be support for this amendment, which seeks to prioritise workers in these horrendous situations.

It will not be lost on the Minister of State and is not lost on other people that every time an issue like those mentioned hits the headlines, people ramble into the Dáil Chamber or up to a microphone and say we need to take action to ensure this cannot happen again. That is precisely what this amendment seeks to do. Workers who have been in this situation will say, to a man or woman, they felt they were not a priority and that other people were well ahead of them in the queue, people who had not given decades of service as many workers had. For that reason and on their behalf, I propose this amendment.

This is a really relevant amendment and is particularly so tonight to workers across the country who work in The Body Shop. They have been told the Irish stores will be closed tomorrow. they are being closed by the new owners, Alma24. According to The Guardian, Alma24 has an owner and majority shareholder who is an executive with close links to Aurelius, a vulture fund that is well known for its asset stripping.

The stock will be cleared out of the Irish stores and the company is expected to go into liquidation next week.

Today, a bombshell was dropped on those workers. They were told they will not be paid for any or all work they performed between 11 and 28 February. They are also owed money for holidays. In the Cork shop, which I contacted this afternoon, five workers are employed and the owners owe those five workers more than €10,000. One staff member is owed more than €4,000. One of the workers is a single parent with three kids to take care of. Due to the fact that the 30-day consultation letter was only sent to the Minister yesterday, some of the workers may not be able to take alternative paid employment or claim jobseeker's benefit for more than four weeks. I ask for clarity on this from the Minister.

In the case of Debenhams, the stores were closed behind the backs of the workers during Covid, but workers took action to prevent the removal of stock and demand that they be paid their entitlements in full before that could happen. Should The Body Shop workers take a similar stand, not only would they have my full support but I am confident they would have the support of working people across the country who see this as scandalous treatment. The stores should not be closed or the stock removed before those workers have been paid in full.

I support the Bill to which these amendments are linked because it gives workers more rights to information in a consultation period, but it is a very weak Bill given that it provides workers with no more tangible benefit than that. If it is the best that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael can do, it says a lot about their commitment to advancing the interests of working people. I support the amendment from Deputy O'Reilly because it would provide a very tangible benefit, that is, preferential creditor access for workers. Workers should be at the top of the queue for payouts from the liquidation pot, not towards the back. They should not end up with little or nothing as we have seen so many times down through the years.

I genuinely appreciate Deputy O'Reilly's kind words in regard to officials. Trust me, no offence was taken by me. She is dead right in everything she said. Ultimately, despite that level of bonhomie I cannot accept the amendment.

A lot of appreciation was shown for the-----

I think Deputy Barry is breaking the third wall.

On the Deputy's proposed new section 621A, section 608 of the Companies Act 2014 already provides that where it can be established that the effect of the transfer of assets has been to defraud creditors, the company or its members, the court can order the return of these assets which have been improperly transferred. Under this provision, the term "creditor" includes employees of the company concerned. Consequently, workers are already entitled, as creditors, to apply to the court for the return of assets which have been improperly transferred.

As regards subsection (3) of the Deputy's proposed new section 621A, section 10 of the Protection of Employees (Employers' Insolvency) Act 1984 already provides for this transfer of rights and remedies of the employee to the Minister in these circumstances. I do not see that there is sufficient added value through the new section 621A proposed by the Deputy.

There are two key points to make about the Deputy's proposed section 621B. First and most straightforward is that the Deputy's proposed amendment will not give enhanced redundancy to anyone. The entitlements of an employee, which are currently treated as preferential debts in a liquidation, are simply their statutory entitlements, namely, to statutory redundancy, where applicable, and certain pay-related debts such as arrears of wages and holiday pay. These are, in effect, underwritten by the State from the Social Insurance Fund, where the assets of the insolvent company are insufficient to discharge these debts. In a company insolvency, employees are generally preferred creditors for the purposes of any balance normally owed to them outside of these parameters.

Second, I have spoken about the dangers of creating separate classes of worker. I fully recognise that in a redundancy situation insolvent companies take different approaches, depending on a wide range of factors, and some employees benefit from significantly better terms than others. This is a matter for negotiation between employees and-or their representatives and the employer. It is a wholly different matter for the State to place enhanced redundancy packages on a statutory basis in insolvency situations. The State treats all employees equally and provides them with the same protections. If it gave statutory recognition to enhanced redundancy packages, this would involve the State in treating workers in the same situation in different ways. The State cannot and should not make such arbitrary distinctions, and it would likely be unconstitutional to do so. It would also impose additional costs on the Social Insurance Fund to the detriment of others who rely on the floor level protections it provides and, ultimately, to the Exchequer.

It would also have a knock-on effect on creditors such as SMEs and suppliers who are employers and, due to liquidity issues, may find themselves making their own workers redundant as preferential debts include rates and taxation claims. The State is also a preferential creditor and such a proposal would adversely affect the Exchequer and deprive the taxpayer of moneys owed to local authorities, the Department of Social Protection and Revenue.

In terms of tactical insolvency, we are of the belief that there are powers under existing legislation to cover that scenario. This Bill goes further in proposing to enhance the mechanisms by which a liquidator may increase the assets available for distribution to creditors; to lower the threshold required for the court to make an order by which a related company contributes to the debt of the company being wound up, as per section 599; to give the courts discretion to increase the period within which transactions made in the period preceding the liquidation may be deemed an unfair preference, in section 604; and to make the reckless trading provisions more objective and accessible, as per section 610.

On Deputy Barry's intervention, I share his concern regarding the workers of the aforementioned company. I expect that all statutory obligations will be met. In terms of the notice received today by the Department, I can confirm that workers are able to take alternative employment without losing any of the entitlements laid out by the Deputy.

Can they do so within the next 30 days?

Can they claim jobseeker's payments as well?

I will come back to the Deputy directly on that within the next hour, if that is okay. I do not have that information to hand, as he can appreciate.

The amendment may also incentivise employers and employees to have enhanced collective agreements ahead of insolvency situations in the knowledge that they will be funded from the sale of assets and-or State funding via the Social Insurance Fund. Again, while I appreciate the intention behind the amendment, it would have far-reaching implications and potentially significant unintended consequences if enacted. Any change to the carefully balanced order of distribution in a liquidation would require in-depth examination and is not a decision to be taken without due consideration. Unfortunately, I will be unable to accept this amendment.

I appreciate that.

Tactical insolvencies happen. We can put any name we like on them. They should not be allowed, and we all know that. If sufficient laws had been in place to protect workers like those in Debenhams, TalkTalk and Clerys, workers would not have had to protest and engage in the action they were forced into. They did not do that as a first choice. I know this because I spoke to workers in all of these companies. They were terrified and felt they were at the back of the queue. They felt that things were happening all around them and that decisions were sometimes being taken in boardrooms in London and other places. As a result, they lost their jobs, which were the only source of income for some families.

The Minister of State referenced the carefully balanced order in terms of when insolvencies take place. It does not seem very balanced for those on the receiving end. The system seems very unbalanced and unequal. The amendment seeks to balance things in favour of workers. I appreciate the concern the Minister of State expressed about potential knock-on consequences for SMEs. SMEs could find themselves in that situation, in any event.

I do not feel that enough has been done or is being done to address this issue. I cannot find a single Deputy in the Dáil or Seanad who disagrees with the amendment. Everybody says we should not have another Debenhams, TalkTalk, Clerys, La Senza or Paris Bakery. Everybody agrees that should not happen, yet when it comes to legislation we sometimes come up short. This is complicated and there are potential knock-on consequences. The legislation needs to be very well thought out. Equally, there needs to be legislation which focuses on those workers and the people who are the true victims in any tactical insolvency. They do happen and should not be allowed to happen. That was the purpose of and intention behind the amendment.

Does the Minister of State want to add anything?

This merits a further response and further discussion because the points have been well made by Deputy O'Reilly. It is important to remember that while certain insolvencies have attracted lots of negative headlines, and rightly so, most company directors want to do the right thing and they do their best accordingly.

In 2021, the ODCE noted its reviews of liquidation showed that in more than 90% of all liquidations, directors had acted honestly and responsibly, which is important to say.

In respect of the general environment, when a company becomes insolvent, it can be, as we know, an extremely anxious and worrying time for its employees, given employees are usually wholly financially dependent on their employers. They are considered before creditors in terms of wage arrears, outstanding holiday pay, pension scheme contributions and statutory redundancy, and these payments are paid ahead of ordinary and unsecured creditors. This preferential status already affords employees a level of financial protection. Where the employer is insolvent, the State will underpin the statutory entitlements of workers as creditors.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.

The Bill will now be sent to the Seanad. I thank everybody who partook in that important work.

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