Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 have been ruled out of order.
Ministers and Secretaries and Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial and Court Offices (Amendment) Bill 2025: Committee and Remaining Stages
SECTION 1
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
A Cheann Comhairle, as you will see, there is a note that I have opposed this section. I oppose it for all the reasons outlined by all the Opposition parties together in the last hour or so. It is outrageous that the first act of this Government is to increase the number of super junior and junior Ministers. This is at a time when many of our constituents have had two weeks without electricity, then more weeks without broadband and with no end in sight. The first thing the Government and the Minister have done is to increase the number of jobs for the boys. Of course, the number of super junior Ministers is being increased from three to four. This legislation will mean that all four of these super junior Ministers will get the pay that super juniors are awarded. Resulting from this legislation, which super junior Minister will now be paid the salary of a junior Minister that they were not paid up to this point? That is outrageous and it is why I am opposing this section. The Opposition collectively submitted numerous amendments to this legislation because we think it is outrageous, should not happen and the Government is just trying to get this pushed through in a matter of two hours without much debate.
Tá mé ag cur i gcoinne an chuid seo den Bhille. Bhuel, tá mé i gcoinne an Bhille ina iomlán. Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Aire nuair a thosaigh sé níos luaithe nuair a bhí sé ag trácht ar an Ministeries and Secretaries Act 1924, áit a rinneadh seacht parliamentary secretaries a roghnú ag an am. Ní raibh an Bunreacht ann fiú ag an am. An fáth go ndeirim sin ná go bhfuil sé an-soiléir cad atá i gceist sa Bhunreacht ó thaobh an Cabinet de nach mbeadh ach cúigear déag ann agus é sin leagtha síos sa Bhunreacht lom amach. Chomh maith leis sin má tá dualgais agus ualach oibre á thabhairt d’Aire agus airgead, táillí, liúntais agus pá ar leith á thabhairt dóibh chun jab a dhéanamh, is é sin an t-aitheantais go bhfuil dualgais bhreise orthu. Ansin tugtar na dualgais sin do na hAirí sóisearach? Ní fheicim conas is féidir dualgas a thabhairt. Is féidir “functions” a thabhairt mar a luadh ach ní féidir dualgas nó na cumhachtaí atá i gceist leis sin a roinnt ar dhaoine nach bhfuil ag suí sa Cabinet agus nach bhfuil freagrach don Executive mar atá sé leagtha síos sa Bhunreacht.
Ar phointe eile a ghabhann leis seo chomh maith, má fhéachaimid ar Airteagal 15 den Bhunreacht, tá sé cuíosach soiléir in alt 4.1°:
4 1° Ní cead don Oireachtas aon dlí a achtú a bheadh ar aon chuma in aghaidh an Bhunreachta seo nó in aghaidh aon fhorála den Bhunreacht seo.
Nuair a fhéachtar go bhfuil sé leagtha amach cuíosach soiléir sa Bhunreacht go bhfuil sé i gceist nach mbeadh ach cúigear déag san Executive, feicfear go bhfuil sé seo ag teacht go huile is go hiomlán salach air sin. Is é sin an fáth go dtacaím leo siúd, cosúil leis an Teachta Pa Daly, ó mo pháirtí féin, atá ag tógaint cás cuairte i gcoinne an rud atá an Rialtas ag triail a dhéanamh anseo agus i gcoinne an sórt cur chuige atá tar éis a bheith ag an Aire sa chás seo agus ag rialtais le déanaí, cur le líon na nAirí bliain i ndiaidh bliana beagnach, mar go bhfuil sé ag teacht salach ar an méid atá sa Bhunreacht.
Má ritear an Bille seo - ag féachaint anois ar an vóta, tá an chosúlacht air go rithfear - sa Dáil agus b’fhéidir sa Seanad ina dhiaidh, ba chóir go mbeadh ról ansin ag Comhairle an Stáit. Ba chóir go bhféachadh an tUachtarán air seo agus go gcuirfeadh sé chuig Comhairle an Stáit é le go mbeadh an chomhairle sin nó an Chúirt Uachtarach ag féachaint ar an gceist seo chun tuiscint a bheith acu an bhfuil an reachtaíocht seo ag teacht salach ar an méid atá sa Bhunreacht.
Tá mise den tuairim go bhfuil agus is é sin an fáth go raibh mé ag tagairt d’Airteagal 15.4.1° agus d'Airteagal 15.4.2° ar an ábhar céanna. Measaim go bhfuil sé seo go huile is go hiomlán droim ar ais ar cad atá i gceist sa Bhunreacht, ag smaoineamh ar an méid airgid agus an méid tacaíochta a fhaigheann Airí sa chéad dul síos agus ansin go bhfuil neamhaird á dhéanamh de sin nuair atá an obair chéanna nó roinnt den obair sin á tabhairt do dhaoine in ainneoin cad atá ráite sa Bhunreacht.
First, I am disappointed that my proposed amendment and the amendment from Deputy Gibney were ruled out of order. I understand the reason given was that they were not in line with the spirit of the Bill. Deputy Gibney's amendment sought to have the maximum number of junior Ministers set at 20, while I sought to have it set at 15. It seems to me that this is legislation changing the number of junior Ministers. I wonder whether, if we had changed the proposed figure from 20 to 24, it would have been in order. Are we only allowed to increase the number of junior Ministers and not decrease it? Perhaps we can discuss that somewhere.
Hear, hear.
Is the Minister not embarrassed to have his first act in this Government and in this Dáil be such a stroke and to be so blatant in sharing out the spoils of political office? Is he not embarrassed to have to trot out the line that "Oh, it is really about the size of the population and we need more people" and so on? Does it not cause him to cringe even a little bit inside to so blatantly make Ministers of one sort or another not far off one in two Government TDs? Does he not see it is very blatant and obvious to people what is happening here?
This is not in the Bill but it has been reported in relation to the junior Ministers that the law is going to be changed to enable them to continue to receive the travel and accommodation allowance received by TDs who are not Ministers. For some, this will be worth upwards of €35,000 annually. How is that going to be done and when is it going to be done? Will it be through a ministerial order or through legislation? Again, how can this possibly be justified? Is €176,000 for being a junior Minister, four times average earnings, not enough for a junior Minister? I will leave it there and, hopefully, come back in on the other sections.
I will come back on some of the points raised. First, relating to the section, it is obviously being opposed. As I said previously, the purpose of the Bill is to allow for the appointment of 23 Ministers of State. The importance of Ministers of State is not something new. It was already acknowledged in 1924 with the Ministers and Secretaries Act that first provided for the appointment by the Executive Council of a maximum of seven Parliamentary Secretaries to act as junior Ministers. The number of Ministers of State has been progressively increasing due to the expansion of Government business, allowing Ministers to delegate some of their powers and duties to their Ministers of State. Today, the major consideration for seeking the proposed change to 23 Ministers of State, as was the case for previous changes in legislation, is the increased volume of Government priorities and areas of responsibility. The expansion in ministerial duties specifically to these three Ministries arises from the complexity across a number of policy issues, the challenges associated with managing extensive Government initiatives and the enhanced engagements with stakeholders at all levels, both domestically and internationally. Some Deputies reflected on the increased population in their contributions. That is the case. The population grew from 4.4 million people in 2007 to an estimated 5.4 million people at the end of 2024.
When we consider the need in the context of the appointment of the Minister of State with special responsibility for migration, we want to have a coherent and strategic approach to that, given the increasing number of people coming to live and work in Ireland for many years. It is a welcome consequence of the growth of our economy and the job opportunities. Nevertheless, this growth requires an increased focus on delivery of public services and ensuring that we develop a cross-governmental approach to this matter. Many of the emerging challenges we face are interdisciplinary and necessitate cross-departmental responsibilities. New responsibilities will be delegated to ensure that there is an appropriate focus across all priorities.
It is not possible to exactly compare government structures. In some previous contributions, speakers mentioned other countries. Finland, for example, is a country with a similar population to Ireland and it has 19 ministers, each assisted by a secretary of state, which is a role broadly equivalent to a minister of State. In Ireland, there are 15 Ministers. In other jurisdictions that are similar in size, such as New Zealand and Norway, I am told there are 20 ministers and ministers of state, but this figure changes depending on decisions of the government of the day.
I have already mentioned the main areas where the Government will be focusing its attention and where the assistance and support provided by a Minister of State will be essential to achieve these specific responsibilities. The Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, will have special responsibility for fisheries and he will also have special responsibility for the marine in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The Minister of State in that role will provide much needed support to these Departments and to the Taoiseach to help focus in the coming years, for example, across a number of areas and support many people across the agriculture community.
We also appointed a Minister of State with responsibility for migration. As has already been flagged by the Taoiseach, the Department of Justice is being significantly reformed to make sure that its focus reflects the programme for Government. That will involve the creation of a new division with responsibility for the management of migration and also co-ordination and integration.
The Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science will play a clear role in securing the financial foundations and supporting many of the Government initiatives in the context of science and research.
Deputy Ó Snodaigh referenced the constitutional framework that we have. I am aware that there are two ongoing legal actions in the High Court taken by some Members of the Opposition relating to the attendance of Ministers of State at Cabinet meetings. This constrains what I might say. However, it is important to reflect that the Government has always worked within the boundaries of the Constitution and the action is being defended rigorously by the Attorney General on behalf of the Government. The Constitution is clear on what constitutes the Government. It is between seven and 15 people who must be Members of the Oireachtas, and who are appointed by the President. Ministers of State are appointed in accordance with the provisions of the Ministers and Secretaries Acts. It has been the practice for many years that Ministers of State may attend respective meetings regularly. It is in keeping with the Constitution and the procedures of government. The action is being defended in court by the Attorney General and the Government. The courts will rule on that specific matter.
Other Deputies referenced the amendments that were ruled out of order. Members who are in the House for many years know that the Government has no role in what amendments are in order. I am happy to debate any amendment. Deputy Ó Snodaigh will recall that when we were debating the Official Languages Act, it was one of the exceptional cases where, in fact, through his chairpersonship we debated all the amendments tabled. It was a unique instance. It is not the role of the Government to decide or dictate which amendments are ruled in or out of order. I respect the role of Deputies in submitting amendments and their respective opposition to this Bill.
The matter Deputy Murphy raises is not a matter for this legislation. That will be a matter for further discussion within the Government. If a proposal is brought forward, that will be made public at the time, but it is not a matter for the legislation before us today.
Very briefly, arís casfaidh mé ar an mBunreacht. Níor léigh mé amach Airteagal 15.4.2°:
2° I gcás aon dlí dá n-achtóidh an tOireachtas a bheith ar aon chuma in aghaidh an Bhunreachta seo nó in aghaidh aon fhorála den Bhunreacht seo beidh sé gan bhail sa mhéid go mbeidh sé in aghaidh an Bhunreachta seo agus sa mhéid sin amháin.
2° Every law enacted by the Oireachtas which is in any respect repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof, shall, but to the extent only of such repugnancy, be invalid.
Tá an Aire ag triail rud a dhéanamh atá invalid. D'úsáid sé an leithscéal maidir leis an daonra - that is, the excuse that we have an increased population. I do not think that stands up, because if we look at 1924 we had 4.23 million. In 1977, when the first change came from seven to ten - if we take it that permanent secretaries were, in fact, junior ministers, we had dropped down to 3.282 million. There was not a reduction; in fact there was an increase. Then again, in 1980 when it increased by another five, we were still well below the 1926 population - 3.413 million. Even in 1995, we had not reached the 4.23 million. In 2007 we were only just reaching slightly above the 1926 level but in that year we had 20 ministers of State. The increase in population has absolutely nothing to do with it and it should not be used as an excuse to try to cover the Government in this case.
Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 91; Níl, 71; Staon, 0.
Tá
- Aird, William.
- Ardagh, Catherine.
- Boland, Grace.
- Brabazon, Tom.
- Brennan, Brian.
- Brennan, Shay.
- Brophy, Colm.
- Browne, James.
- Burke, Colm.
- Burke, Peter.
- Butler, Mary.
- Butterly, Paula.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Malcolm.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Cahill, Michael.
- Callaghan, Catherine.
- Canney, Seán.
- Carrigy, Micheál.
- Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
- Chambers, Jack.
- Cleere, Peter 'Chap'.
- Clendennen, John.
- Collins, Niall.
- Connolly, John.
- Cooney, Joe.
- Crowe, Cathal.
- Cummins, John.
- Currie, Emer.
- Daly, Martin.
- Dempsey, Aisling.
- Devlin, Cormac.
- Dillon, Alan.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Feighan, Frankie.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Foley, Norma.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Harkin, Marian.
- Harris, Simon.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Heneghan, Barry.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Higgins, Emer.
- Keogh, Keira.
- Lahart, John.
- Lawless, James.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Maxwell, David.
- McAuliffe, Paul.
- McCarthy, Noel.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McCormack, Tony.
- McEntee, Helen.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Séamus.
- McGreehan, Erin.
- Moran, Kevin Boxer.
- Moynihan, Aindrias.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Moynihan, Shane.
- Murnane O'Connor, Jennifer.
- Murphy, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Neville, Joe.
- Nolan, Carol.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Callaghan, Jim.
- O'Connell, Maeve.
- O'Connor, James.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Meara, Ryan.
- O'Shea, John Paul.
- O'Sullivan, Christopher.
- O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Muirí, Naoise.
- Richmond, Neale.
- Roche, Peter.
- Scanlon, Eamon.
- Smyth, Niamh.
- Timmins, Edward.
- Toole, Gillian.
- Troy, Robert.
- Ward, Barry.
Níl
- Ahern, Ciarán.
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Bennett, Cathy.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Brady, John.
- Buckley, Pat.
- Byrne, Joanna.
- Carthy, Matt.
- Clarke, Sorca.
- Collins, Michael.
- Connolly, Catherine.
- Conway-Walsh, Rose.
- Coppinger, Ruth.
- Cronin, Réada.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Cullinane, David.
- Cummins, Jen.
- Daly, Pa.
- Devine, Máire.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Paul.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Farrelly, Aidan.
- Farrell, Mairéad.
- Fitzmaurice, Michael.
- Gannon, Gary.
- Gibney, Sinéad.
- Gogarty, Paul Nicholas.
- Graves, Ann.
- Guirke, Johnny.
- Hayes, Eoin.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Hearne, Rory.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Eoghan.
- Kenny, Martin.
- Kerrane, Claire.
- Lawless, Paul.
- Lawlor, George.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McGettigan, Donna.
- Mitchell, Denise.
- Murphy, Paul.
- Mythen, Johnny.
- Nash, Ged.
- Newsome Drennan, Natasha.
- Ní Raghallaigh, Shónagh.
- O'Callaghan, Cian.
- O'Donoghue, Richard.
- O'Donoghue, Robert.
- O'Flynn, Ken.
- O'Gorman, Roderic.
- O'Hara, Louis.
- O'Reilly, Louise.
- O'Rourke, Darren.
- Ó Broin, Eoin.
- Ó Laoghaire, Donnchadh.
- Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- Ó Súilleabháin, Fionntán.
- Quaide, Liam.
- Quinlivan, Maurice.
- Rice, Pádraig.
- Sheehan, Conor.
- Sherlock, Marie.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Wall, Mark.
- Ward, Charles.
- Ward, Mark.
- Whitmore, Jennifer.
Staon
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Mary Butler and Emer Currie; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Denise Mitchell.
Question declared carried.
As the thirty minutes have elapsed with regards to debate I now put the following question: "That in respect of each of the sections undisposed of, the section is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment; Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."
Question put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 92; Níl, 72; Staon, 0.
Tá
- Aird, William.
- Ardagh, Catherine.
- Boland, Grace.
- Brabazon, Tom.
- Brennan, Brian.
- Brennan, Shay.
- Brophy, Colm.
- Browne, James.
- Burke, Colm.
- Burke, Peter.
- Butler, Mary.
- Butterly, Paula.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Malcolm.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Cahill, Michael.
- Callaghan, Catherine.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Canney, Seán.
- Carrigy, Micheál.
- Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
- Chambers, Jack.
- Cleere, Peter 'Chap'.
- Clendennen, John.
- Collins, Niall.
- Connolly, John.
- Cooney, Joe.
- Crowe, Cathal.
- Cummins, John.
- Currie, Emer.
- Daly, Martin.
- Dempsey, Aisling.
- Devlin, Cormac.
- Dillon, Alan.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Feighan, Frankie.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Foley, Norma.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Harkin, Marian.
- Harris, Simon.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Heneghan, Barry.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Higgins, Emer.
- Keogh, Keira.
- Lahart, John.
- Lawless, James.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Maxwell, David.
- McAuliffe, Paul.
- McCarthy, Noel.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McCormack, Tony.
- McEntee, Helen.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Séamus.
- McGreehan, Erin.
- Moran, Kevin Boxer.
- Moynihan, Aindrias.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Moynihan, Shane.
- Murnane O'Connor, Jennifer.
- Murphy, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Neville, Joe.
- Nolan, Carol.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Callaghan, Jim.
- O'Connell, Maeve.
- O'Connor, James.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Meara, Ryan.
- O'Shea, John Paul.
- O'Sullivan, Christopher.
- O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Muirí, Naoise.
- Richmond, Neale.
- Roche, Peter.
- Scanlon, Eamon.
- Smyth, Niamh.
- Timmins, Edward.
- Toole, Gillian.
- Troy, Robert.
- Ward, Barry.
Níl
- Ahern, Ciarán.
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Bennett, Cathy.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Brady, John.
- Buckley, Pat.
- Byrne, Joanna.
- Carthy, Matt.
- Clarke, Sorca.
- Collins, Michael.
- Connolly, Catherine.
- Conway-Walsh, Rose.
- Coppinger, Ruth.
- Cronin, Réada.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Cullinane, David.
- Cummins, Jen.
- Daly, Pa.
- Devine, Máire.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Donnelly, Paul.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Farrelly, Aidan.
- Farrell, Mairéad.
- Fitzmaurice, Michael.
- Gannon, Gary.
- Gibney, Sinéad.
- Gogarty, Paul Nicholas.
- Graves, Ann.
- Guirke, Johnny.
- Hayes, Eoin.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Hearne, Rory.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Eoghan.
- Kenny, Martin.
- Kerrane, Claire.
- Lawless, Paul.
- Lawlor, George.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGettigan, Donna.
- Mitchell, Denise.
- Murphy, Paul.
- Mythen, Johnny.
- Nash, Ged.
- Newsome Drennan, Natasha.
- Ní Raghallaigh, Shónagh.
- O'Callaghan, Cian.
- O'Donoghue, Richard.
- O'Donoghue, Robert.
- O'Flynn, Ken.
- O'Gorman, Roderic.
- O'Hara, Louis.
- O'Reilly, Louise.
- O'Rourke, Darren.
- Ó Broin, Eoin.
- Ó Laoghaire, Donnchadh.
- Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- Ó Súilleabháin, Fionntán.
- Quaide, Liam.
- Quinlivan, Maurice.
- Rice, Pádraig.
- Sheehan, Conor.
- Sherlock, Marie.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Wall, Mark.
- Ward, Charles.
- Ward, Mark.
- Whitmore, Jennifer.
Staon
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Mary Butler and Emer Currie; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Denise Mitchell.
Question declared carried.