Waste in Public Expenditure: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Michael Collins

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

notes that:

— overspending and waste within the public sector not only erodes trust in Government but also diverts resources from essential services; and

— as members of Dáil Éireann, and therefore custodians of the public purse, we have a duty to the people of Ireland to be committed to ensuring that taxpayers' money is managed responsibly, efficiently, and transparently;

acknowledges that there have been numerous ongoing failures by Governments past and present to properly manage cost control on Government funded projects, such as:

— the €808,000 Dáil printer scandal, where a printer was purchased but could not fit into the print room, leading to over €230,000 in modifications;

— the €725 million RTÉ bailout;

— the Office of Public Works (OPW) Government Buildings security hut at a final cost of €1.43 million;

— the National Children's Hospital overrun which has surpassed €2.5 billion;

— the €22 million on covid ventilators, that never worked, with another €50,000 spent on storing them;

— the €2.5 billion paid out in medical compensation over ten years, by the Health Service Executive;

— the OPW Leinster House bike shed at a cost of €336,000;

— the OPW Iveagh House refurbishment at a cost of €825,000;

— the National Transport Authority spend on Metro North, in the region of €300 million with nothing built;

— the OPW wall at the Workplace Relations Commission's Dublin headquarters escalated from an initial estimate of €200,000 to over €490,000;

— the electric buses, that sat idle for a year and a half because there were no chargers;

— the €7 million by the Arts Council on an Information Technology system that has never been used;

— the National Gallery scanner, purchased at €120,000, but never used because no suitable room was found; and

calls on the Government to:

— acknowledge that the historical record indicates that there is systemic dysfunction across Government in public expenditure control and oversight;

— establish within the first year of this current Government, an Independent Watchdog for Government Spending; "The Department of Efficiency and Reform":

— to be an independent entity recruited from the private sector, dedicated to monitoring and improving public sector spending;

— to operate similar to Revenue Commissioners or Health Information and Quality Authority (HIQA), with a regional scope, assigned to geographic areas;

— to appoint commissioners through a competitive tender process targeting qualified private professionals, such as private sector efficiency consultants, solicitors, auditors, accountants, actuaries, tasked to address procurement and tendering processes to streamline and improve efficiency with implementation of timelines and goals for delivery of projects, with powers codified in legislation and authority similar to HIQA's inspection framework;

— to conduct unannounced audits and inspections of public bodies, Non-Governmental Organisations and agencies;

— to investigate waste, inefficiencies, or mismanagement of funds; and

— to issue recommendations or corrective measures, escalating unresolved issues to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

On behalf of Independent Ireland, I stand here to fully support this motion and demand action, not excuses. We did not come into politics to play the insider game. Independent Ireland stands outside the cosy circle where one party covers for the other and waste and scandal get buried under spin and public relations. We came into politics to fight for ordinary people, especially those in rural Ireland who are being bled dry by taxes and squeezed by rising costs while the Government wastes money hand over fist. Let us be crystal clear: waste is not only an issue of money; it is also about respect for the people who get up early, work hard and pay their taxes. They expect basic fairness in return, but what do they get? They get printer scandals and security huts that cost more than houses. It is a slap in the face to every hardworking family.

Speaking plainly, real people feel this waste every day. In west Cork and across rural Ireland, waste means cuts to rural services. It means people wait hours for ambulances because the money to fund proper ambulance cover has been wasted on golden contracts and vanity projects. It means elderly people are afraid to turn on the heat while the Government hands out contracts for IT systems that never get used. It means farmers are asked to jump through environmental hoops while the Department cannot even manage a tender process without doubling the cost.

Independent Ireland was founded to stop this nonsense, to stand up for the people who follow the rules and demand that the Government follow the rules too. This is a rotten culture of no accountability. A printer that could not fit in the room cost €808,000, but you cannot get a home help visit for a housebound pensioner in west Cork. It cost €725 million to bail out RTÉ, but try to get funding for a rural broadband scheme. A security hut cost €1.43 million. That is the price of multiple family homes in rural Ireland. The national children's hospital has cost €2.5 billion and counting. If any small builder ran a project like that, they would be in court, not in receipt of another cheque. They would probably be in jail to be quite honest. Some €22 million was wasted on ventilators that never worked and then €50,000 was paid to store them. That is waste on top of waste. Some €2.5 billion has been paid in medical compensation because the health service keeps getting it wrong, but instead of fixing the system, the Government budgets for the payouts. Some €336,000 was spent on a bike shed and we cannot get proper rural bus routes into our communities. Some €300 million has been spent on metro north with nothing built, yet rural roads crumble year after year. Electric buses were left idle for 18 months because no one thought about chargers - you could not make some of this up - and €7 million was spent on an Arts Council IT system that has never been used. That is not just incompetence; it is complete and utter disrespect.

Why does Independent Ireland stand for reform? This is not about the left or the right; it is about right and wrong. Independent Ireland stands for straight-talking common sense. Every cent wasted by the Government is stolen from essential services such as health, housing, rural transport and support for carers, farmers and fishermen. We were founded to break the culture of cover-ups and excuses, to force real accountability and put honest representation ahead of party loyalty. This motion calls for a Department of efficiency and reform. This is exactly the kind of practical, no-nonsense measure Independent Ireland stands for and what real oversight should look like. We need independent auditors, not political appointees. We need experts from the private sector, people who know how to run a business, manage costs and keep projects on time and on budget. This new watchdog should have real power, including the power to arrive unannounced, dig through the books and expose waste in real time. There should be no more soft reports, no more lessons learned. If waste is found, heads should roll and the public should know exactly who is responsible. Crucially, this body must be independent of Ministers and politics. Departments should not be investigating themselves any more. The public is not fooled by that any more.

I turn to fixing procurement, funding the golden circle. Procurement is a rigged game, a golden circle of insiders who know how to play the system. Tenders balloon from €200,000 to €500,000 and no one bats an eyelid. Independent Ireland demands a complete reset of public procurement with fixed price contracts, proper penalties for overruns and a ban on serial offenders getting further contracts. We need to treat public money like it is our own money, because that is transparency. Real time, real numbers. Every cent of public money should be traceable online in plain English for everyone to see. If you can track a package from China to Cork, you should be able to track where your tax money goes. Community groups when applying for €5,000 have to account for every biscuit. I am involved in 26 community groups. I know exactly the crises and problems they go through and the accountability they have to put before people. They have to account for every biscuit, but the Government can lose millions and no one bats an eyelid. They are the double standards we are here to end.

This motion matters because it is about restoring trust. That is the problem. The trust of the public is being broken. We ask why such a high percentage of people do not vote. The Government knows why they do not vote. They see this and they do not see accountability. They feel we are all dishonest. We are all tarred with one brush. The Irish people do not expect miracles. They expect basic competence and honesty. When Independent Ireland was founded, we said we would stand for accountability, respect for taxpayers and fairness for rural Ireland. This motion is about all three. It states that waste is not just bad management; it is a breach of trust. We have to rebuild that trust from the ground up. Independent Ireland's message to the Government is that if it opposes this motion, it will be defending waste, endorsing scandal and telling the people that waste is fine as long as it is not our money being wasted. However, it is your money and my money. It is the money of every worker, farmer, carer, pensioner and small business owner who pays taxes in good faith to the country. If the Government thinks that we in Independent Ireland will stand quietly by while the Government squanders it, it has another think coming. We need to stand with the people. This motion is a line in the sand. The Government should support it and show respect to the people who sent them here. If they vote it down, it will show nothing has changed and the insider still runs the show.

Independent Ireland stands with the people. We demand honesty, accountability and respect for taxpayers' money. Every TD in this Dáil knows of projects for which money is not available and yet the Government has spent €300 million on metro north, with nothing built. How many wastewater treatment plants would that have built? Councillor Daniel Sexton and I attended an Irish Water briefing last Thursday evening in west Cork in relation to a wastewater treatment plant for Dunmanway. I could have said Shannonvale, Goleen, Rosscarbery or Ballydehob, all of which have been waiting for 26 or 27 years for funding for wastewater treatment plants. It is astonishing. We were told they might have to wait until 2032, 2033 or even 2034. It is pie in the sky stuff. It will never happen and they know it now. The people of Dunmanway are rightly angered. They cannot build one house because there is no money for a wastewater treatment plant, but at the same time there is €300 million for a metro in Dublin with no metro on the line. There is €7 million for the Arts Council for IT but nothing for a wastewater treatment plant for Dunmanway. What do I say to the people of Dunmanway who desperately want to develop their town and the surrounding area? They want to build an autism centre with CoAction and have funding for it but all of these projects could be in jeopardy because the State has wasted hard-earned taxpayers' money and let vital projects collapse because of this waste.

What would the Minister advise me to say to the Canty family who let RTÉ use a vital piece of ground to provide a television service to their community many years ago but who, to this day, have not received one brown cent? Since then RTÉ has erected several phone company masts on its own one in Rosscarbery, making a handsome profit for itself from another person's ground. I raised this issue with the previous Minister, who spent a number of years ducking and weaving and not giving credible answers. Today the Canty family can see quite clearly why they cannot get paid. It is because we have to keep €7 million for IT for the Arts Council, €825,000 for the refurbishment of Iveagh House, and €336,0000 for a bike shed, the money for which could have built a lovely home for someone. There is all of this waste, with no accountability and no heads rolling, and still the Canty family will be left without a single cent or one bit of respect. Something here stinks to the high heavens. This has to end here and now.

What do I say to the 30 students in the greater Bantry area who are looking for a bus service to Schull Community College but are denied it, leaving their parents to drive back and forth on a 45-minute to one-hour journey each way every day? Do I tell them there is no money for the bus service the Minister keeps denying them when they tell me the children's hospital is costing between €2 and €3 billion and is running millions over budget? They will point out to me the €22 million wasted on Covid ventilators that were never used and the €120,000 for the National Gallery scanner. We have all of this unaccountable waste while these people are being denied a simple school bus. Something is wrong somewhere. I ask the Minister to support this motion today and to put the taxpayers, the hardworking people of this country, first.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I wish the Minister well in his new role but I want him to do something different. I also wish the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, and others well in their roles but I am asking them, as business people, to do one thing. There are some on the Government benches who are business people and I want them to make their Departments accountable. In saying that, I want to make them accountable for delivery. It is very simple. I have been in business all of my life. I am self-employed. If I make a mistake, I am accountable. Come the end of the month, if Revenue is not paid online, I am accountable. If VAT payments are not made, I am accountable. When Ministers go into their positions in Departments, they are often told they are welcome but that this is how things are done. That has to change now. I want Ministers to stand up to their Departments and tell them that they are in charge, that the Department is going to do things and deliver for this country. Things are not going to continue to be done the way they have been for years.

Let us look at Uisce Éireann and what it delivers for the money it is getting. It is not value for money. How do I know this? I know because I look at business plans across Europe and see other international companies delivering projects for half the price charged by Uisce Éireann. That is not accountability. That is a waste of funds. I look at Askeaton in County Limerick. Fianna Fáil promised 45 years ago that the wastewater treatment plant would be updated. A Fianna Fáil councillor said, on his election, that a wastewater treatment plant would be delivered in Limerick. I have said this to the Minister previously but he has not been listening. He is laughing now with the Minister beside him about the fact this has been brought up previously. I am talking about 45 years of disappointment from the Government. The Minister is new to the job. I urge him to stand up and be counted and get his Department to be accountable.

Let us look at the HSE in Limerick. In my first contribution in the Dáil I said the management in UHL was wrong. The management changed five years later. How many lives were lost because of bad management? It took the Government five years to correct it and now it is trying to rebuild. That is accountability. That is what I am talking about. People sniggering, laughing and chuckling because the Government has a majority in the Dáil is not acceptable. I will hold the Government to account in this Chamber and outside but I will also be respectful to the Government when it delivers. Delivery has to be in relation to Departments and the waste of funds.

Statistics show that there is an urban-rural divide when it comes to infrastructure which discriminates against young people who want to live in the area they grew up in, who want to see it grow and who want to see infrastructure like buses or a rail network being provided. They want basic infrastructure so that towns and villages can be rebuilt, can grow and can be repurposed. If we starve areas of infrastructure, they cannot grow. The Government wants to push everything into the cities which are already bursting at the seams. The Government is going to counties like Limerick looking for water to come to Dublin. It is projecting that it will cost €400 million to bring water to Dublin. I talked to representatives of Uisce Éireann recently. They said I should visit one of their plants in Dublin but I said they should come down and look at one in Limerick. The LDA was set up to deal with a site 15 minutes from Limerick city that takes out two thirds of County Limerick from infrastructure. Every town and village needs to have infrastructure. Departments need to be held accountable. If they make a mistake, they should be demoted, not promoted. They should not just be put to one side and told "listen lads, you're okay, we'll shove you over here". The same business model that Revenue uses should be used in Departments. If people lose money, they must get out. They must be made accountable and never get into a position again where they can have funding at their fingertips and lose it. We want infrastructure delivered. We want to make sure there is accountability within the Departments and a body watching over every penny that is spent on behalf of every business person and every worker in this country who is paying for this Dáil today. That is what we want.

Deputy Ken O'Flynn

Today I stand before the House representing the voice of the Irish taxpayer who is rightly appalled by the flagrant waste of public money on this and the previous Government's watch. Where is the accountability? Where are the checks and balances in the public procurement process? The buck stops with the Minister and his Government. Today my party has shone a light on what is an embarrassing lack of fiscal responsibility. It has become the hallmark of this Administration and the previous one, in which the Minister also served.

In fairness, let us begin by recalling what was a good idea, namely, the €6 million spent on the setting up of Benefacts, which had a very short lifespan. It provided unprecedented transparency and oversight of non-profit funding. However, instead of building on the success of that, the Government chose to shut it down, investing a further €250,000 on the wind-up process. Why? It was because Benefacts dared to expose the wasteful practice that is rampant in the public sector. It allowed taxpayers to follow the money. It was a tool to enable Members of this House and the press to track where money was being spent. One thing we know for certain is that money is being spent on 372 quangos and 32,000 NGOs. That is one NGO for every 155 people in the State.

The National Gallery of Ireland, for example, spent €125,000 on a scanner which was never to see the light of day because there was not a room suitable and it could not be accommodated. This is a stunning example of neglect and mismanagement, and a perfect example of two departments - procurement and facilities - not speaking to one another. Yet, nobody is to blame. In 2018 the Government purchased a printer in the Oireachtas for a whopping €800,000. This printer lay idle for ten months. It was another example of a purchase not being fit for the building. In addition, €230,000 of taxpayers' money was spent modifying the building to accommodate the equipment. Yet, nobody is to blame. We must ask how many essential services could have been funded for that money. As we look out from Leinster House we cannot overlook the €366,000 spent on the bicycle shed. Yet, nobody is to blame. There was €1.4 million spent on a security hut, yet nobody is to blame. There was €250,000 spent on car charging points on the grounds of this House. Yet, nobody is to blame.

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here? Let us not even start with the €9 million spent on phone pouches or the €500,000 spent by the OPW on a perimeter wall. The OPW has now affectionately been coined a new name by the general public in the pubs, clubs, restaurants and bars and on the streets of Cork: the "office of public waste". Let us remember the Hill of Tara project, with €124,160 spent on that since 2014 yielding no results. Yet again, nobody is to blame. The Arts Council spent a staggering €6.7 million on an IT system, which was wasted. This taxpayers' money could have been spent on education, as my colleague said, or on infrastructure, healthcare, helping the elderly, helping communities and building more houses for the people that badly need them. Yet, nobody is to blame.

The additional insult is the national children's hospital project, the cost of which is now €2.2 billion to €2.5 billion and counting. This was meant to be developed for €800 million. This project has been mismanaged by the Minister's Government from the start. The Tánaiste, Deputy Simon Harris, refused to take responsibility prior to the election, saying that although he signed the document he had nothing to do with it. Again, it is a prime example of somebody who had nobody to blame. The big question that is coming, and which the Government is deflecting, is this: how we will staff this hospital with the rents and the prices there? Who will work in this hospital?

Today I call on the Government to implement the necessary reforms of accountability in the public procurement processes. The Irish people deserve to know where their hard-earned money is going and how it is being spent. They need to have it tracked. We need to reopen a type of Benefacts that clearly provides comprehensive transparency and improves Government accountability.

The other thing I want to bring to the Minister's attention is that local authorities are not available to come before the Committee of Public Accounts. They must be answerable to the Committee of Public Accounts. For example, Cork City Council spent €400,000 on the restoration of a fireman's hut the size of a garden shed. It spent nearly €5,000 on scaffolding for a hut that is just a little bit taller than myself. It is ridiculous.

Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I move amendment No.1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes that:

— the Government condemns the waste of any public money and notes that significant sums have been spent on providing better public services in recent years with the additional funding allocated towards improving and expanding the public services provided to our people;

— Government expenditure has provided, and continues to provide, a robust response to the challenges and needs facing the Irish nation, through continued investment, leadership, and value for money in the delivery of public services and important infrastructure projects with this investment making significant positive impacts, including:

— since 2021, completion of almost 53,000 new local authority scheme dwellings and delivery of hundreds of projects under the Rural and Urban Regeneration and Development Funds;

— significant reductions in outpatient waiting lists and improved health facilities, such as the National Forensic Mental Hospital in Portrane, hospital extensions and new primary care centres and community nursing units across the country;

— a reduction of approximately 48 per cent in the weighted average waiting time for outpatient appointments, down from just over 13 months in September 2021 to 6.8 months at the end of December 2024;

— cost barriers associated with healthcare being reduced through the abolition of inpatient charges, the introduction of the free contraception scheme, and the expansion of access to free general practitioner care to over 670,000 people, making healthcare more affordable for individuals and families;

— Ireland performing well on treatable and preventable causes of mortality and making significant improvements over the past decade, including reductions in the mortality rate for all cancers;

— Ireland being among a small group of seven European Union (EU) countries where life expectancy at birth is above 82;

— significant upgrades to Ireland's national road network and improvements to the public transport system, including BusConnects;

— high-quality cultural and sporting amenities delivered, such as the Sport Ireland Campus in Blanchardstown;

— continued progress under the National Broadband Plan, such that over 330,000 homes have now been passed and can avail of the high-quality connectivity offered by this plan;

— free schoolbooks Scheme; and

— early years childcare cost assistance to our families;

— all five budgets under the previous Government term successfully balanced the dual challenge of remaining responsive to economic and social developments, while seeking to ensure both value for money and fiscal sustainability of the public finances and this Government will continue to manage the demand for better public services and fiscal sustainability;

— Accounting Officers and accountable persons operate under high standards of administrative accountability that ensures value for money is achieved and that this accountability is fundamental to good governance, which in turn is vital to ensuring trust in public administration;

— in carrying out their duties, Accounting Officers and accountable persons operate within a range of frameworks continually developed by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform in areas such as corporate governance, risk management, internal audit, infrastructure investment, current expenditure appraisal, standards in public office, freedom of information and financial reporting and that these frameworks have ensured both accountability and value for money through the huge expansion of public services over the last decade and have ensured that there has been and will continue to be a focus on value for money at the heart of expenditure decisions across the public sector;—

the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform will carry out a review of Public Financial Procedures with a view to further enhancing its accountability requirements in terms of providing value for money;

— over the last decade, the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has led on the development of expenditure appraisal expertise across Government Departments through the Irish Government Economic Evaluation Service, which provides a network of analysts across Government to review the effectiveness of policies and programmes and to make proposals for improvements;

— the Office of Government Procurement provides expert guidance and advice to public bodies as to the optimisation and efficiency of their procurement function, and to provide a clear understanding of compliance obligations with National and EU law in this complex function as well as continually working with stakeholders in the public and private sectors to develop more efficient and effective procurement procedures;

— the size of Ireland's public service and expenditure is lean and efficient and provides value for money when compared to many other states with a similar economic and social model;

further notes that:

— under Budget 2025, the Government continues to invest in important public services and provides value for money, including through the expansion of health services, increases in core social welfare allowances; increased investment in housing, expansion of the School Meals Scheme;

— investment in infrastructure is a critical component in supporting Ireland's growth and in delivering better, fit-for-purpose public services, and the increased capital spend in Budget 2025 continues the delivery of a NDP that is providing the vital infrastructure we need to support our future economic and social requirements, as well as our climate change commitments;

— the delivery of capital projects has been challenged by a number of significant factors in recent years, including the continued impact of construction inflation on projects, labour shortages, particularly in the construction sector, and the ongoing delays in getting projects through the planning system;

— the Government has approved a number of priority actions to improve delivery of NDP projects, including the introduction of the Infrastructure Guidelines in December 2023, to reduce the administrative burden on Departments charged with infrastructure delivery, the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform also chairs the reconstituted Project Ireland 2040 Delivery Board, which is charged with driving the delivery of the NDP, and these actions will boost the delivery of critical infrastructure in a sustainable and cost-effective manner, such as approximately 300 school building projects annually and BusConnects;

— the Office of Public Works has introduced new governance measures and revisions to project approval thresholds to ensure the Management Board has oversight and approval of all works above €200,000;

— the expansion of the mandatory Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies over the last decade and that it stipulates that 'State bodies should serve the interests of Government as a shareholder, the taxpayer and all other stakeholders, and pursue value for money in their endeavours', and that the Code is a critical framework for the application of best practice in corporate governance of both non-commercial and commercial public bodies under the aegis of Government Departments;

— international private sector internal audit standards are in effect across the Civil and Public Service bodies through their adoption of the Institute of Internal Auditors' ,'2024 Global Internal Audit standards' that came into effect worldwide on 9th January, 2025, and that the adoption of these standards ensures that Central Government's internal audit framework is the same framework as for private sector entities, albeit with some clarifications pertaining to the different public sector governance arrangements; and

— the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is currently rolling out a major financial reporting reform that is improving and modernising Central Government's system of administrative accountability; and

acknowledges:

— the diligent, tenacious, and comprehensive investigations by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (OCAG) and his staff in fulfilling his Constitutional duties and notes the high-quality of his annual Report on the Public Services based on his office's investigations into economy and efficiency of public expenditure under section 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993; and

— taking into account the governance frameworks already in place, ongoing work to make improvements in these frameworks, and the constitutionally independent oversight provided by the OCAG, there is no requirement for the establishment of a new body that would duplicate this work and that also would not have the same constitutionally independent and impartial role of the OCAG. ".

I thank the Deputies for tabling this motion. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the focus of achieving value for money across the public services provided by the State. The past five years have seen an unprecedented expansion in the investment and delivery of public services. The Government and I absolutely condemn the waste of any public money. I am deeply disappointed with some of the cases that have come to light in recent weeks and months. Those examples of waste are unacceptable.

The Government amendment sets out the many actions that are currently under way to strengthen the value-for-money component of the work undertaken by my Department and across government. I will speak to some of those actions today. Building up and improving public services for our growing population requires significant investment in infrastructure now and into the future. Government expenditure has provided, and continues to provide, a robust response to the challenges and needs facing the Irish nation through continued investment, leadership and value for money in the delivery of public services and important infrastructure projects. This investment is making significant positive impacts including: almost 53,000 new local authority scheme dwellings and the delivery of hundreds of projects under the rural and urban regeneration and development funds; significant reductions in outpatient waiting lists and improved health facilities such as hospital extensions, new primary care centres and community nursing units across the country; the abolition of inpatient charges, the introduction of the free contraception scheme and the expansion of access to free GP care to more than 670,000 people; significant upgrades to Ireland’s national road network and improvements to the public transport system; continued progress under the national broadband plan such that over 330,000 homes have now been passed by fibre; the free schoolbook scheme; and the early years childcare cost assistance to our families. There are also many more areas where there have been interventions, investment and support, and improvement in public services.

It is unfair that the Deputies have not reflected and acknowledged that a lot of the investment that is being made is having a positive impact in communities. It is having a positive impact for the people the Deputies represent.

Deputy Ken O'Flynn

But it is not coming in on budget. It is not coming in on budget.

Deputy Jack Chambers

I can reference, for example, the sports capital programme and many other areas of capital investment that are valued by the Deputies in areas for which they advocate. The motion is not balanced in the context of the significant investment and impact that is being made in public services. I acknowledge the work and the dedication of many public and civil servants across the system who are helping to support all of the broader objectives in achieving these milestones. I recognise the work they do every day to try to achieve value for money across our public services.

The Government has in place a range of oversight mechanisms pertaining to public expenditure. I would like to put examples of these frameworks on the Dáil record this morning. They include the various budgetary processes and reforms which are in place to support oversight in the delivery of policy; guidelines, such as the recently reformed national infrastructure guidelines; the public spending code for current expenditure; the code of practice of the governance of State bodies; public financial procedures; public procurement guidelines; arrangements for oversight of digital and IT projects and initiatives; and internal and external audit processes that provide validation of public expenditure. It is the legal responsibility of Departments to ensure that they, and the bodies under their aegis, comply with the governance and value-for-money principles and requirements, as their annual sanction to spend public money stipulates that Departments and Accounting Officers must have in place appropriate measures to operate in full compliance.

The public financial procedures set out the rules and underpinning legal framework for the appropriate use of public money. They are based on the Constitution and legislation as well as the institutional and financial relationships between the Oireachtas, the Government, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. The detailed procedures of this framework are required to be observed by Government Departments in their consumption of public funds to provide public services and develop the capital infrastructure of our country. I would like to inform the House that my Department will carry out a full review of public financial procedures. This review will specifically examine the accountability requirements in terms of providing value for money.

I want to be very clear that it is my view and the view of everyone in the Government that there simply has to be accountability and value for money for State spending, especially where there are specific questions over value for money considerations. Accountability must permeate through every level of the public service, including State agencies. Reviewing the public financial procedures is an effective way of ensuring this and the review will inform whatever steps are required in this regard.

I also would like to bring to the attention of the House the work of my Department in the recent introduction of the updated 2024 internal audit standards, as well as the financial reporting reform for the Civil Service, as evidence that this Government and my Department continue to raise accountability standards in the public service using best international practice. This is how these have been developed in the context of global standards. These rules are required to be adhered to by all public bodies. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General relies on and refers to these frameworks during its investigations and cites them in its reports, particularly such frameworks as the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the public financial procedures. Furthermore, Article 33 of the Constitution establishes the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is a key institution in the checks and balances of our democracy. It continues to serve the State well and its reports are considered and held in high regard by the Committee of Public Accounts.

Taking into account the governance frameworks already in place, ongoing work to make improvements in these frameworks, and the constitutionally independent oversight provided by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, there is no requirement for the establishment of a new body that would duplicate the important work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and that would not have the same constitutionally independent and impartial role of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Government has put in place frameworks to ensure that value for money is achieved and my Department actively continues to develop these frameworks in the areas of governance, accountability and public expenditure management. Budget 2025 is continuing to deliver improvements and expansion across our public services for our growing population, continuing to invest in our young people and prioritising the need to address our infrastructure gap in the economy. We are committed to delivering value for money in the roll-out of new services as well as in the execution of the national development plan that provides housing, public transport, strong and reliable public utilities, healthcare and schools now and for the future. The ambition of this Government is to support the delivery of the right public services and infrastructure in a manner that provides value for money.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "notes that:" and substitute the following:

"— there needs to be a disciplinary process for senior civil servants for instances of repeated waste of public funds;

— accountability needs to be written into the contracts of senior civil servants; and

— there should be a Minister of State for Accountability, nominated and located within the Department of the Taoiseach, to track live procurement and infrastructural projects to ensure they do not go over budget and are delivered on time, to report to the Taoiseach on a weekly basis in terms of accountability.".

I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward this motion. Waste in government has been a major issue for Aontú in recent years. Waste and the lack of Government accountability is one of the most important issues facing the Dáil over the last five to ten years. There is no doubt. Aontú has made it our goal to cut Government waste and to create efficiency in the delivery of public services and public infrastructure. We will not stop until we achieve that.

This is one of the most useless and inefficient Governments in the history of the State in terms of minding the public purse. It is a Government that is allergic to accountability. The Minister for Finance talks about accountability. The Government does not know what accountability means. It thinks accountability is that the Minister comes in here and speaks in measured tones and shock about the latest example of millions of euro lost in an investment or it may even have a committee meeting to look into it and then it moves on to the next situation. That is not accountability. If we continue on this route we will continue to wake up morning after morning to the latest iteration of Government waste and millions or billions of euro.

To show the incompetency of this Government, we are 100 days after the election. Where are the committees? No committees have yet been formed in this Legislature. All week we are having statements on housing, health and justice. We are putting in the time because the Legislature cannot even legislate. We cannot bring legislation through the Dáil given the incompetency of the Government. The democratic legislation system is grinding to a halt. The first responsibility of this Government, to legislate for the country, is not happening at the moment because 100 days after the election we cannot even get it together. I could easily spend the next ten minutes rhyming off all the examples of Government waste from the Gucci bicycle shed to the National Children’s Hospital and the Government spending €2.5 billion on compensation for mistakes that happened in hospitals over the last ten years. There is a never-ending supply of this. Unfortunately, there is not even enough embarrassment on Government faces over these issues to make a change. It is having a significant effect on Irish society in several ways. First, the Government is incinerating billions of euro of taxpayers' money. A large portion of the taxes the Government takes from the men and women who get up early in the morning and burst themselves, who commute two and three hours a day and work hard to get home to their families and spend half an hour with their kids before they go to bed are being incinerated by the Government in terms of waste.

The other aspect of Government incompetency and uselessness is how so many infrastructural projects are grinding to a halt. The National Children’s Hospital was meant to be open in 2020 at a cost of €700 million, save an asteroid hitting the planet. So said Leo Varadkar. This Government has proved to be more damaging than even an asteroid hitting the planet because here we are in 2025 without even a date for the opening of that children’s hospital and the cost is heading towards €2.5 billion.

I will tell the Minister what accountability is, if he will just listen and stop looking at his mobile phone for two seconds. Accountability happens in the real world. There are hundreds of thousands of people who work in the tens of thousands of small businesses around the country. If they do not do their jobs properly and reach a standard or if they continue to waste money or have a situation where they burn through their business’s money, there will be a cost to them. That cost might be a disciplinary procedure, moving sideways or a lack of promotion or it could be losing their job. However, nobody ever loses their job at the top ends of the Civil Service no matter how much money they lose and nothing will change until that changes.

Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty

Deputy Tóibín did not want to give too many examples but it is important to keep ramming the examples home. Just over the past three years, there have been several instances which have highlighted concerns regarding the mismanagement and waste of public funds by the Irish Government bodies and agencies. There was a seven-year inquiry into NAMA’s €1.6 billion Project Eagle which resulted in €14.4 million being spent primarily on legal fees and administrative costs. The new X-ray scanner at the National Gallery cost €124,000 and the Arts Council’s failed IT system cost €6.675 million. We had the OPW overpriced bike shed construction, the €7,000 retirement party expenses and the Office of Public Works €1.4 million security hut. Need I say more? We had a debate recently on the need for the Road Safety Authority to have a structural overhaul. The reason for that is because of massive inefficiencies and mismanagement in the agency which is costing the taxpayer money. There is also mismanagement in the HSE. The HSE has faced multiple instances where projects were delayed or went over budget which impacted service delivery. Obviously, there have to be agency nurses but we have seen an over-reliance on agency staff in administration. It is not good economics. It is not very efficient. There has been delayed utilisation of medical equipment worth millions. It remains unused due to infrastructural delays reflecting poor planning and resource management. There have been overruns in public housing projects. Several projects exceeded budgets by millions. Inefficient public transportation investment and funds allocated for transportation projects were under-utilised and mismanaged leading to increased congestion and annoyance to the public. There is a strike today which is affecting my constituency of Dublin Mid West which has left thousands stranded because the buses did not turn up. That was because of dissatisfaction over how the bus service is operating. There were 300 electric buses which could have saved a fortune in fuel left idle because of gross ineptitude and bureaucratic incompetence. School construction projects frequently exceed budgets. I was listening to the “Path to Power” podcast and heard of where schools were going to put in 12 solar panels. That should be much more. Schools should be multi-use facilities so there can be a pre-school on site and rooms which can be used in the evening. I called that integrated public partnership 20 years ago. We are wasting school buildings. We should be feeding that solar panel energy back to the grid rather than adding to our costs.

Also on costs there has been the delayed implementation of the digital government e-services. Then there is the over-expansion of consultancy contracts with the excessive reliance on external consultants leading to inflated costs. The mismanagement of subsidy programmes leading to the unequal distribution of funds and a minimal impact on agricultural development. The big one that came out yesterday was the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and the climate change body report that said we would get between €8 billion and €26 billion in fines for not investing in areas that can save people money, protect our environment and do our bit on climate change.

It is a no-brainer to put in that investment, but instead we are hoping the EU will go lax and that we will not have to pay those fines. We will have to pay something. In six years' time, are we going to be saying this was another example of gross Government ineptitude? We need to invest in water to provide housing and in housing itself to avoid costing people a lot more in inflated rents.

On the contracts for construction, consistently in this country we have no checks and balances for companies that are considered dodgy and that do shoddy work and end up costing the taxpayer more over a period. BAM, for example, has had massive cost overruns with the children's hospital but it had issues with schools in the past. Why should a company that has been shown not to adhere to best practice then be awarded a contract because it has given the cheapest tender? We know the cheapest is not always the best quality or the best way to spend public money. We should be going down like a hammer on all these contracts to make sure they are delivering proper value for money.

The Wombles preschool in Scoil Mhuire, Airlie Heights, is facing closure because the Government is putting in an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, unit, which is welcome, but the reason the Government is putting it in is that it is not opening the other schools that should be opened. We are talking about 66 childcare places going nowhere else. That is going to cost the State a fortune down the line to try to find alternatives. We need to think smarter.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward this motion, which speaks to the real and justified anger that is out there. It is anger at the blatant waste of people's money by this Government and the previous one. In the dying days of the latter, we had a constant drip feed of shocking levels of wasted money, such as €336,000 on a bike shed, €1.4 million on a security hut, €9 million on phone pouches and the biggest one of all, €1.5 billion on a children's hospital. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Governments have become synonymous with the waste of public money. When we talk about €1.4 million on a security hut or more than €300,000 for a bike shed at the back of this building, we are talking about people's money, which they have paid in through taxes and which they entrust to the Government to spend in their best interest and that of this State.

At the same time, while people see this blatant waste of money, they are looking at their children waiting for an assessment of need, at their older parents waiting on hospital trolleys or at carers in their community struggling just to get by. It is clear from people that enough is enough when it comes to this kind of wastage of public money. The public deserve to know the extent to which Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are burning through their money and what it is being spent on.

The waste of money, however, is not just about the money itself that has been wasted. It is also about the opportunity cost. When we look at the bike shed we have to pass at the back of this building, which cost well over €300,000, I think about the fact it would cost €300,000 to deliver an ambulance on Inis Oírr. Is rud fíorbhunúsach é go mbeadh otharcharr ag ceantar, ach níl otharcharr ar Inis Oírr. Chosnódh sé sin €300,000. Bhí costas €336,000 ar an bike shed. Tá sé scannalach an bealach a bhfuil Fianna Fáil is Fine Gael ag caitheamh le hairgead na ndaoine. Caithfear athrú a dhéanamh ar an gceist sin láithreach. Teastaíonn otharcharr ó Inis Oírr láithreach.

For most people, the real worry is that this is just the tip of the iceberg and that we do not really know what is going on. Is it just because an investigative journalist puts in a freedom of information, FOI, request and tells us what is happening that we discover it? What we need to hear from the Opposition, as we have done today, but also from the Government, is what exactly we can do to stop this waste of money. First, we in Sinn Féin have said there needs to be a full audit, completely and utterly transparent across Departments and State agencies, in order that we can get under the bonnet of the scandalous waste of money under the watch of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

Second, we need to look at how public money is spent in the procurement process. It is absolutely obvious that we should have data on how our money is being spent. I brought forward a Bill in the previous Dáil, which I will reintroduce in this Dáil, called the Transparency and Social Value in Public Procurement Bill. It will create greater transparency, oversight and accountability in procurement spending in order that the Minister will know exactly what is happening to the public money that is being spent but also that the public will know how it is spent. The data will be used to look at the type of procurement procedures used and the performance of the contractor, as we heard in the context of contractors, including details on cost overruns, information on non-compliant expenditure, the use and type of social clauses in contracts, which are so important, and details on contracts awarded to small and medium sized enterprises. This will allow contracting authorities to see what has worked well, because obviously plenty of spending works well and we need to see that, but we also need to see what does not work well. The Bill makes sense and I hope the Minister will be able to support it when I bring it forward.

The third thing we need to do is reform the freedom of information process. There has been some reform but we need far more such that it will not be the case that an investigative journalist puts in an FOI request, is refused and submits an appeal that is then granted. If that happens, what we should do is reimburse the sum that was spent on the appeal. Again, I will bring forward legislation on freedom of information, but this motion is about the scandalous waste of money and we need to do something about that.

Deputy Thomas Gould

There was €4,500 for the door, €13,200 for the plinth and steps and €141,000 for site works. You would think we were talking about building a mansion, but instead we are talking about fixing up a small fireman's hut in Cork City Council. A total of €361,000 has been spent on repairing this hut and it is not finished yet. I have spoken to contractors about this and they told me these prices are exorbitant. They said it is unbelievable the sums that have been spent and wasted. The hut is 8 ft high and the scaffolding to put around it costs nearly €5,000. This came from money that had been set aside for the decade of centenaries to commemorate our history and educate people about it. It was intended to commemorate and remember the Kilmichael ambush and Tom Barry, Tomás Mac Curtain, Terence and Mary MacSwiney, the Delaney brothers, the Ballycannon boys and so on, but instead it was siphoned off for this fireman's hut. Now Cork has a glorified shed. It is an insult to their memory but it is an even bigger insult to ordinary people who are struggling every day with the cost of living.

The Government is going to blame Cork City Council, the OPW, the National Gallery, RTÉ and the Arts Council, but the buck stops with the Government. It is in charge and it is allowing this unbelievable waste of money. The first item of legislation it passed when it got into the Dáil gave expenses to Ministers of State across the board. That was the Government’s priority. As another example, in Cork, a total of €335,000 was spent on robot trees. It is unbelievable. Another €20,000 is being spent to maintain them. They are glorified seats and benches. There is no accountability. Who is being taken to task? Who is explaining how this happened? More important, who is going to say it will never happen again?

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are so out of touch. Last week, figures on homelessness were released. There were 10,683 people homeless, including 4,603 children. The Government is wasting millions while people are stuck in emergency accommodation. On Saturday, there will be a march in Cork for parents whose children do not have school places in special classes or ASD units. How can the Government explain the waste to those parents? Their children have nowhere to go in September. They are crying out for help and all the Government wants to do is give more Ministers of State more expenses and waste our money.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

Other Deputies have outlined the level of waste of public money on various projects, such as the national children's hospital, the Dáil printer that did not fit into a room, the art scanner that was bought for €125,000 without anyone thinking about where to put it, the bike shelter, the security hut and so on.

The list of these projects goes on.

What drives people mad is that there are local projects desperately looking for funding to stay open or enhance their services. Last week I raised the issue of the Blanchardstown Centre for Independent Living. Its funding has increased by just €2,000 since 2018 despite the number of people looked after there trebling. The Genesis counselling service could provide an extra 4,000 hours of counselling in Dublin 15 for €200,000. Imagine that. That is value for money in my eyes. When we talk about value for money, the Departments that scrutinise community projects should learn from them and share with those who are wasting millions of euro the experience of how community projects are well-run on a shoestring, providing genuine value for money.

Today, many TDs will raise the issue of the money that has been spent but I want to look at an issue brought up by An Taisce with regard to MetroLink and the Tara Street section of that project. The Markievicz leisure centre, located close to here, is home to the only remaining swimming pool in the south inner city. An apartment block named College Gate will also be demolished during this project. Reports have estimated it will cost up to €60 million extra to buy and demolish those apartments and relocate their occupants. As we stand here now, that will cost €60 million extra compared with a cut and cover tunnel. There are different methods that can be used but the choice that has been made is to knock down the apartments and relocate them. We are in the middle of a housing crisis and the cost of housing has gone up year on year. The figure of €60 million is the estimated cost today. Imagine what the cost will be in five or ten years’ time if the MetroLink project is ever started. I urge the Minister of State to look at this project and its funding, and the Tara Street section in particular. We do not to be standing here in three, five or six years' time saying, “My God, what an absolutely shocking waste of money.” Being forewarned and forearmed, I do not think we want to see that waste of money here.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward this very important motion. The staggering list of financial mismanagement across multiple Government Departments and agencies is downright disgraceful. I think the Minister of State will agree with me on this. We can give him all kinds of examples. People are really angry. They know the cases being made public are only the tiniest tip of the iceberg. We all know of the other cases. The cases that have been made public include: the €9 million mobile phone pouch project; the €360,000 bike rack; the OPW wall; relentless overspending on the national children’s hospital; modular homes with a price tag of €442,000; and the scanner from the National Gallery that cost €125,000. They are only a tiny portion of the absolute waste of public money. Is it any wonder that what we hear most from people is that this Government is a shower of wasters? I do not say that in a derogatory way but the waste of taxpayers’ hard-earned money is absolutely disgraceful.

I refer to the lack of transparency and the hiding behind commercial sensitivity. Going back to JobPath, we spent years trying to find out about the original contracts that were given. We were told we would not be allowed to see them because they were commercially sensitive. That is not good enough and it has to stop. Looking at that instance, there was also the displacement of the services that were already there. The local employment services were displaced by JobPath. It makes no sense whatsoever. People are not stupid.

We heard the Department of Social Protection was spending €1.4 million per week on IT consultancy. That is one Department. What is the total cost? What is going on in our Civil Service and our public service and who is in charge? I thought the Department of public expenditure had a grip on this. I was previously Sinn Féin spokesperson on public and expenditure and reform. Deputy Farrell now holds that portfolio. I was absolutely shocked at the lack of oversight, and I remain shocked by it. Deputy Farrell has put forward a number of solutions, as Sinn Féin has done continuously, for how all of this can be tackled.

In the few seconds I have remaining, I want to talk about contracting out and consultancy. This country is being run by consultants. That is how Government policy is made - by consultants. That has to stop. We have to bring that expertise into Government to make it properly accountable.

We can contrast the overspending and waste of money with people being scrutinised to within an inch of their lives and sometimes being scrutinised beyond the grave in trying to get every cent back from them. There is an inherent unfairness within the system and it has to be put right.

Deputy Mark Ward

The Government needs to simply stop wasting public money. It is as simple as that. What hurts people the most is that they know that money could be spent on things that would really benefit them. For example, the €9 million spent on mobile phone pouches, which were spun as being a mental health support, could have been spent in schools on face-to-face mental health supports that children really need. There is a lack of those supports in the country at the moment.

We have seen other examples, such as the never-ending amount of money being spent on the children’s hospital. How can a project go €1 billion over budget? There will have to be a tribunal on this in future. There was €336,000 spent on a bike shed and €1.4 million on a security hut. The list goes on and on. What we have seen from successive Governments is the mismanagement of public money. This money belongs to our communities and our people and could be invested in our local areas.

In my own area there are local services on their knees. I was at a meeting last night with a local horse project that is on its knees trying to keep its operation going. This money could be spent on something like that. My community knows the value of a euro and it is an insult that the Government does not. Who is being held to account? I have not seen anyone being held to account.

I will raise an issue that has not received much attention. Does the Minister of State know how much the HSE gets fined for not paying its bills on time? Every time the HSE does not pay a bill on time - it could be for cleaning products or toilet rolls or something as simple that - it is fined. In the past two years the HSE has been fined €4.3 million for not paying its bills on time. We have seen embargoes in the health service, the lack of recruitment and the lack of investment, and this is €4.3 million that was not spent on anything.

Before the Minister of State came into the Chamber, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, spoke about value for money and accountability. Who is accountable for this? Who is responsible for this dereliction of duty? Who is responsible for this waste of public money? It stops with the Government. It stops with the Minister of State. The Government has created a culture of wasting public money. Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and the Independents in government are now responsible for this. With each scandal the public’s confidence goes down. The public is losing respect for public representatives. Sinn Féin will restore this respect and confidence. Deputy Farrell outlined a number of measures we will bring in to have accountability and transparency when it comes to spending public money. We need those measures to be implemented as soon as possible.

Deputy Pa Daly

Tá an Rialtas ag magadh faoi na ndaoine, ag cruthú scannal i ndiaidh scannail agus ag cur ár gcuid airgid amú. The sense of anger and frustration felt by people is palpable but the disillusionment and apathy is more worrying as they see their hard-earned money and public money going down the drain. Despite the promises made at election time, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the rural Independent TDs have shown no intention of reversing the culture of waste and incompetence. Despite expressing horror and outrage at the cost of the bike sheds and having serious questions about the millions of euro spent on mobile phone pouches and the Arts Council money, these same TDs have now gone very quiet as more and more scandals arise.

I wonder whether the outrageous waste of public money is one of the reasons the Government-supporting rural Independent TDs remain so steadfastly determined to keep up the charade of being in opposition in order that they can wash their hands of these public scandals. The list of scandalous wastes of money is as long as your arm yet nobody, not a single person, has been held to account. Where are the checks and balances? Unsurprisingly, the Government has repeatedly attempted to shirk responsibility and blame somebody else, but the responsibility lies squarely with the Government. It is about much more than a waste of taxpayer’s money.

It is about all the projects not progressed because there was not enough money in the pot. Think of all the schools that could have been built or the Garda stations that could have been kept open. Think, for example, of the money needed for the refurbishment of the courthouse in Tralee, which is vital for the town centre. In University Hospital Kerry, elective surgeries have not taken place since 19 December because the emergency room is overwhelmed and there are not enough beds in the hospital. The hospital needs another modular day unit and a minor injuries clinic. Instead, the Government would rather focus on purchasing scanners that lie idle while sick people are left on waiting lists for months and sometimes years.

Unlike the Government, Sinn Féin has a plan and the political will to get to grips with the issue. We would urgently conduct a waste audit of all Departments and State bodies. People deserve to know how their money is being spent or how it is being squandered. Sinn Féin would reform and expand the Freedom of Information Act so the public could more easily track how the Government is directing taxpayers' money. We have called for new legislation for transparency and procurement and to regulate tenders to stop massive cost overruns in capital projects. The scandalous waste of public money must stop. I therefore urge the Government to support and adopt Sinn Féin's proposals. I thank the Independent Group for tabling the motion.

Deputy Ged Nash

I, too, thank the Independent Group-----

Deputy Michael Collins

Independent Ireland.

Deputy Ged Nash

-----for tabling this motion. It is not appropriate that we merely have discussions on Government expenditure occasionally when an Opposition group tables a motion. This matter must concern us all the time if we as a Parliament are doing our job responsibly and effectively.

There is no need for me to rehearse the various overspends on OPW and other projects that have been interrogated to death in the media and on the floor of the House in recent weeks and which have led to this motion. I know from experience and the Minister of State knows very well from his experience that the OPW is a proud organisation with a long track record of achievement throughout the history of this State. I, for one, do not want to see the OPW, given the value of the work it and its staff do, become a watchword for waste and inefficiency. There has been a fair degree of opportunism displayed in this House and elsewhere in recent times in respect of various headline-grabbing projects, but that does not mean criticism and critique are not warranted or that these overspends do not need to be addressed and debated. On the contrary, the public has a right to feel Departments and State bodies always treat public money with respect and ensure value for money.

We are all well aware of the degree of public disquiet over this issue. In recent weeks, we had a national Sunday newspaper outline a litany of what it described as overspends on OPW projects. The Dáil bike shed on steroids is how the Irish Mail on Sunday framed a series of projects costing, it says, €50 million that failed to comply with the State's procurement rules. The Minister of State was quoted in that article as saying he wanted to rebuild the brand of the OPW. He has a job on his hands and I wish him well because the hard-working people of the OPW do not deserve to become a byword for waste in the media or in this House. This is not just a people problem; it is a process problem. The processes by which the State and its agencies go about capital spending clearly need an overhaul. This is where our focus needs to be, instead of demanding heads on plates like some people on these benches will inevitably try to do.

We were all out knocking on doors a few weeks ago and there is nobody in this House who did not have a constituent raise with them the bike shed or the security pavilion when we were canvassing. Few things irritate members of the public more than the feeling their money is being wasted on trinkets or lost through bad practice. It is up to the new Government to get to grips with this issue quickly. All of us in the political system have responsibility to do that. Heads rolling without processes changing leaves us nowhere. There must be a root-and-branch examination of how Government spends money, particularly at a time when there is a lot of money to spend. At a time when coffers are full, the potential for waste is at its highest and the Government must be at its most vigilant. Unfortunately, we only seem to do reform and be interested in reform in this country in the context of a crisis. We should always be vigilant about the spending of public money and focused on transparency in decision-making, responsibility and accountability, not just at a time of fiscal crisis.

A number of weeks ago I had an exchange with the Minister of State on the floor of the House during oral questions. We had an engagement on oversight and governance of OPW projects. The Minister of State mentioned some changes he was initiating with his officials. I welcomed this move at the time. He referred to the term "guidance" and said new guidance would be issued for the spending and management of projects. I would rather talk of rules, regulations and compliance than of guidance, which, for too many people, sounds woolly.

I would rather talk, as well, of culture shifts in institutions and real accountability and making that happen. The way we do accountability in this country is not acceptable in this day and age. It needs to be modernised. The idea a Minister is accountable, literally, for every box of paper clips his or her Department uses is fanciful and outrageous. What we need is wholesale reform of the anachronistic Ministers and Secretaries Act and changes to the Carltona doctrine to usher in a modern form of governance and ensure those actually making decisions are made accountable. That is a modern form of accountability. The kind of accountability we do in this House, where hard-working public servants, some of whom may make mistakes, are hauled in front of the Committee of Public Accounts or the line committee for their Department, made an example of and publicly humiliated, is not accountability. Nothing changes. There is an innate unfairness there. That is not to say that if we ascribe more responsibility to civil servants and expect them to put their hands up and acknowledge mistakes, we are letting a Minister off the hook. There needs to be a proper balance and a modern form of accountability that makes sense in 21st century Ireland, not in the 1920s.

In recent weeks, overspend stories from the Arts Council and the National Gallery have dominated the headlines, but these are symptomatic of a wider problem across the system. This motion suggests there is a systematic dysfunction across government in public expenditure control. It is a very generalised and sweeping statement. I do not believe that is the case at all. There are some egregious examples that point to serious problems but fixing those problems should not be beyond us.

A solution proposed by the motion is the establishment of an independent watchdog for Government spending. I have no objection in principle to exploring this but I have some concerns. Arguably, if the Department of public expenditure and reform, the Office of Government Procurement and the relevant individuals and divisions in Departments and agencies were doing their job properly, we would not be discussing this at all. We would not need that kind of suggestion. The solution is there already. There is oversight of this kind built into our system and my question to the movers of the motion is this: who would watch the watchdog?

Would it be accountable to the Dáil? We are the people who hold Departments, Ministers and officials to account, and that is a principle we need to protect. We do not want this new body to become some kind of Musk-inspired DOGE-like entity that sees the solution to every spending problem in the firing of the nearest available public servant. That will create more problems than it will solve. The danger here is that this is often viewed through the lens of an anti-public service and anti-public sector reactionary agenda. That should not be the case. With that said, it is a fact we do not do accountability properly in this country, and this has been shown in the way issues around overspends and lack of compliance have been handled to date.

If we were in any doubt whatsoever about this Government's allergy to accountability, we need only have watched the election campaign debates. On one occasion our new Tánaiste, then Taoiseach, who was once our Minister for Health, tried to distance himself from by far the greatest overspend in the Government's budget, which is the money-eating national children's hospital. I was amused to hear the Tánaiste opine last week on the issue of the X-ray machine in the National Gallery. He said he was furious. Somebody needs to remind him of the role he played in signing off on the national children's hospital initiative and the lack of oversight there.

I say to the movers of the motion that if they look at the make-up of the board of the national children's hospital, there is probably a majority of people from high-profile business backgrounds on that board. That is something worth mentioning. Some of the same people who said back in the 2000s that we should have Michael O'Leary as Minister for Transport and Seánie FitzPatrick as Minister for Finance are the same people saying that business has the solution to all of our oversight and governance problems. It does not. There is certainly expertise in the business community that could be introduced to the public sector, and that has happened, to help us do things better, but it is not a panacea for all our ills.

In the context of my response and that of the Labour Party to this motion, I do not want to feed into any kind of anti-public sector agenda that is out there. I would be the last person to do that. Ultimately, if we are to protect the hard-working public servants in these State bodies, we have to give them the systems and tools to allow them to deliver their work in a way that is efficient and gives not only value for money but also great service to the public, as most people in the public sector do and strive to do every day. That is something that everyone in this House should strive to do. I am not interested at all in going down a cul-de-sac as part of a blame game, but we clearly have a problem here, so let us work together to fix it once and for all.

Deputy Sinéad Gibney

I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward this motion. While there are elements of it that I also do not agree with, it is an important topic to discuss. I will call out those components of it that I have an issue with, particularly the idea of an Irish version of the DOGE. I do not think that is an appropriate way to go forward. Nor do I appreciate the condemnation of NGOs when NGOs in this country provide a crucial service in areas where I believe the State should be stepping in to provide those services.

Before I go into detail on some examples of Government waste and solutions we put forward as Social Democrats, I want to talk about social democracy. In a modern social democratic country with a modern governance system, what we have is a system where we pay our taxes and, in return, receive quality public services such as housing, healthcare, education, childcare and disability services, all of which create a floor in society below which we cannot fall. It provides confidence in the public that their taxes are being spent in ways that benefit them. In this country, unfortunately, we have a disconnect because people are paying their taxes and are not getting in return the public services they expect. Instead, we hear report after report of Government spending that is resulting in waste, and people are frustrated at this stage that their tax money is not going in the right direction.

I have a theory about this. As proponents of social democracy and as people who believe in a progressive left governance model for this country, we are concerned about that issue of public spending. Perhaps it is the Government's own ideological underpinning, however, which defaults to the private sector and relies heavily on the market, that means it is not as concerned about public spending. It has been pushed into a system of increasing public spending over the past decade because of the windfalls we have seen, the public pressure it is under, and the shortfall in those public services. Unfortunately, without that belief in State reach into public spending, we are seeing waste manifest again and again.

I will get into some examples, and of course there is a litany of them. Gach cúpla mí bíonn scéal eile sna nuachtáin faoi na milliúin curtha amú. I will touch on some of them, starting with the Arts Council most recently. I feel this is a particular example where, for reasons of cybersecurity, cost, upskilling and that we have a talent pool in this country when it comes to IT and cyber skills, we actually should be insourcing rather than outsourcing our IT procurement across the public sector. I will also touch on RTÉ. When we saw the issues there, one of the things most affected has been workers' rights within RTÉ. That is something we are really concerned about as a party. Then there is the national children's hospital, which has been raised many times already this morning.

One thing I will call out within that is that, even when we know there is overspend, there does not seem to be any ability to pull back on that. Even when it is being identified, we are not seeing the steps required to address it. Let us run through a short timeline, a whistle-stop tour of what happened. In 2016, BAM was initially awarded the contract. In 2017, a year later, the first concerns were raised about cost overruns, but nothing essentially changed. In 2019, two separate Oireachtas committees investigated the overspend and, yet again, nothing changed. In 2022, our current Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, declared that the hospital was 80% complete, and yet it is still not open. That is at the cost of €2.2 billion. There does not seem to be any ability in real time to learn or to rectify the systems allowing this to happen.

Another component I point out is that with many of these overspends we are seeing we are again outsourcing all of this expertise. We are outsourcing governance and accountability. That is when we see we have nothing to show for it. Even at the end of all of this overspend, we have so little to show for it as a State. MetroLink is an example of that, with €300 million spent before we have even broken ground. On this project, when it comes to outsourcing, of course private contractors are going to take our money, but the State has to step up and deliver that infrastructure. We get massive public spending going to private contractors on projects that are not fit for purpose while people in the public sector are under immense pressure, having funding released to them and being told to use it or lose it within unreasonable timeframes.

One of the most concerning aspects of this is the impact it has on public confidence. As I say, people pay their taxes and expect public services in return. What they do not expect and do not want is public waste instead. We are starting to see people resenting paying those taxes. My constituents have told me on the doors that they do not mind taxation when and if they see value for it. What we are seeing is a lack of action on waste, transparency and accountability, and it is resulting in a distrust of the State and its ability to spend public money. It undermines faith in democracy and allows this false narrative that it is impossible for the State to practise value for money, whereas that is actually a political choice. Ba chóir go mbeadh muid ag cruthú sochaí ina mbeadh dlúthpháirtíocht fite fuaite inár bpobal agus áit a bhfaighimis luach ár gcuid airgid dár gcáin.

I will mention some of the solutions we put forward in our election manifesto last year and on which we will be working over this term of Government. First is a real-time mechanism to monitor spending in order that we can understand those issues in real time and do not get the information six months after the fact when it is too late to do anything.

The Government needs to actively engage with civil servants and Accounting Officers to ensure compliance with the public spending code, procurement guidelines and so on is actually happening. Again, this must happen in real time. We do not need to create a new body to do this, particularly one run by private sector experts. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is a reputable organisation with the facilities and competence to deal with this. It needs to be effectively resourced to do so and it needs to be given that real-time mechanism to allow it to do it properly. I heard the Minister list some of the practices that are in place to ensure accountability and oversight but they need adjustment because, as we have heard all morning, they are obviously not working. We need to adjust those codes and that procurement framework as required and bring about greater transparency and conflict of interest prevention across the system. Modern well-resourced governments can deliver projects on time and on budget. Broken systems cannot.

I recognise there are many people within the public service working to deliver value for money for the taxpayer. I have been an Accounting Officer myself and I know how dearly public servants hold the idea of value for public money. They appreciate their responsibility to the public purse. I recognise that and once again say that, if they are given the framework to operate within, they will be able to do this. Ní fadhb é a bheith flaithiúil má tá tú ag fáil luach as ach tá an Rialtas flaithiúil le rudaí fánacha. Ciallaíonn sé sin nach bhfuil muid ag fáil na seirbhísí agus an infreastruchtúir chuí. This is an issue it is important to raise and to address. It is truly disappointing the Government amendment fails to do so.

Deputy Rory Hearne

Gabhaim buíochas leis an group for bringing forward this motion. It is very important we focus on this issue. Similarly to my colleague, I also have differences with some of this motion. We need to understand why there is such frustration among the public regarding the issue of waste in public expenditure. It is because people are lacking basic access to services, especially access to appropriate school places for those with special needs and access to disability services. People are really struggling. They do not feel or see the State delivering for them. That is why, when they see the likes of the bike shed, they are absolutely bursting with anger and frustration, as we saw on the doorsteps during the election. It is understandable.

I will look at an issue in my constituency, that of metro north. This was first promised in 2005. It has now been 20 years since the metro was promised. What happened to it? It was ditched by Fine Gael in 2010 and by Leo Varadkar of Fine Gael in 2011 because it was not considered economically viable at the time the austerity cuts were implemented. It was picked up again and has stuttered along. We need to see genuine commitment to delivering key public infrastructure.

We also need to understand why there has not been this commitment. It is because we have never had a social democratic government, that is, one that values and believes in public services and believes in the State's responsibility to deliver in the key areas of infrastructure, health, housing and transport. What we have had is successive governments led by Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael, parties that have this mixed and confused ideology. They are not sure whether they believe in the State or the private sector for delivery. You can look through a litany of examples over the past 30 years. I have written books on it. I refer to public private partnerships, leasing schemes and outsourcing. There is a confused approach as to whether to deliver public services through the private sector or the public sector. These governments have fallen down the middle.

In some areas, we do things very well. To back up my colleague, it is really important we see the areas in which the public sector is delivering. I refer to the area of education in our schools in particular. Our teachers work so hard. We also see our nurses and doctors. There are public servants and civil servants throughout this country who are struggling in their own ways as they work really hard to deliver public services. They are being held back by our State and how it fails to take that social democratic approach to valuing public services and to see their key role. With all due respect to the proposers of the motion, I have heard them criticise local authorities. We have also heard from the Government that local authorities are not delivering enough. Why are they not delivering? They are not delivering because they have been underfunded for 30 years. They have been cut back and their resources have been decimated.

I would also like the proposers of the motion to consider their language around NGOs. NGOs deliver vital services across the country. I refer to the likes of Women's Aid and Barnardos. I was out in Finglas West visiting a local service delivered by Barnardos. It is a family resource centre that is doing incredible work in very challenging situations. It is supporting parents and children. These NGOs are doing vital work. We must be very careful about criticising that sector. It is important to value it. We need to defend NGOs. They are being squeezed by the State as regards what they are expected to deliver.

I will talk about the issue of social housing. We are continuing to deliver social housing through leasing. We pay private sector bodies, often investor funds, a set income for 25 years approximating to or just below the market rent and, at the end of those 25 years, we get nothing. When talking about waste of taxpayers' money, the social housing leasing schemes are one of the biggest wastes of public money there is. Why is the Government continuing to deliver social housing through leasing despite its commitment to end the use of social housing leasing? One in five of all new social houses delivered this year and next year will be acquired through leasing, where the State gets no asset at the end. We need to reconsider that.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The motion is right that there has been a lot of waste by this Government so far and by successive Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael governments down through the years. The motion and the analysis and speeches we have heard from the proposers, however, fail to look under the bonnet and figure out why this waste is happening. The solutions proposed would actually make things even worse. The motion seeks to double down on a neoliberal rip-off republic where public services are outsourced to the private sector leaving behind an empty shell of a state that cannot do basic common-sense things like building public housing, providing bike sheds or building walls. Instead, all of those things are outsourced to a profiteering private sector.

Independent Ireland is so blinded by its right-wing neoliberal ideology that it wants to ape Trump and Musk and set up an Irish version of DOGE, this so-called department of efficiency and reform. We have all seen the horror of what is happening in the US. Staff and funding for cancer research, nuclear safety and public health are all being slashed. Public sector workers are being fired by email. We can be thankful that workers and unions in his country have fought for stronger rights than those in the US. It is not possible to fire thousands of public sector workers at will by email. We know from this motion, however, what Independent Ireland would do if it had that chance. Public sector workers beware; laying waste to the public sector is Independent Ireland's agenda.

Let us lift up the bonnet and figure out why Government waste is happening. Is it because we are not outsourcing enough to the private sector? No, the opposite is true. When you dig into any of the infamous examples of Government waste, including the bike shed, in every single case you will find examples of well-connected private companies ripping off the State and the public. Sensori, the company that built the bike shed, was founded by Michael Stone, a big political supporter and a donor to Deputy Donohoe, the man who got his posters up for free. Sensori got more than €21 million in Government contracts in the past two years alone. Charging €336,000 for a bike shed has had no effect on the company continuing to be awarded massive State contracts.

Their vans can be seen at this building today.

It is the same story with housing. The State has agreed to pay €3.4 billion in rent to vulture funds to lease 9,000 social homes for the next 25 years. When the 25 years are up, those funds will still own the properties and can do whatever they like with them. That is on top of €10 billion in Government handouts to landlords since 2011. That is waste on a colossal scale. The Government could have used that money to directly build public housing and provide permanent social and affordable housing for upwards of 50,000 families. None of that, or the €26 billion set to be wasted on fines for climate inaction, tends to be mentioned in debates on Government waste because it does not fit the right-wing narrative that the public are being fed on this.

The cause of Government waste is not public sector workers, hard-working teachers, nurses or firefighters; it is the profit-seeking vultures circling the State that are always on the lookout for ways to inflate the cost of Government contracts and to slash the wages and conditions of workers. That is what BAM has done with the national children's hospital. It is that neoliberal, rip-off republic that we need to get away from, not get deeper into, if we want to stop waste.

Deputy Charles Ward

It is shocking to see the examples of overspending and waste in the public sector, as outlined in the motion. Public trust in Government decisions and Government spending is at an all-time low. It is sickening for people to watch the Government spend public money so wastefully. It is a slap in the face to families impacted by the defective concrete crisis that hundreds of thousands is being dished out on bike sheds, security huts and printers - you name it.

I will highlight the staggering waste, inefficiency and fiscal irresponsibility of this Government's handling of the defective concrete crisis, not to mention that the very creation of the crisis in the first place is due to its complete failure to provide proper oversight. Thousands of families in County Donegal and beyond are affected. Twenty counties are currently affected by defective concrete. People are trapped in their homes. Public money is squandered on projects to serve the optics over the people. Despite overwhelming scientific evidence that iron sulphites, not mica, are causing homes to collapse, the Government persists in offering remediation when only full demolition will do. Even last week, families were subject to remediation offers that were half-measures ensuring future failures at taxpayers' expense. This is just a waste of public money. It is scandalous.

Micheál Martin spoke yesterday about the generous redress scheme. While the scheme could be worth €50 billion on paper, it is still meaningless when institutional barriers will prevent thousands of homeowners from ever getting on the scheme. There is no scrutiny and the hypocrisy is staggering. How did we get here? Nothing has changed in respect of defective concrete in the 14 years since this started. No meaningful market surveillance exists. No independent oversight is being conducted. Defective materials continue to reach the market and these counties continue to be affected. This scheme will again fail homeowners who have poured their life savings into rebuilding their homes because it does not cover foundations. It is scandalous. The scheme is riddled with waste. Homeowners are buried in bureaucracy and are required to document every single cent while the Government spends €490,000 replacing a 70 m wall outside a Dublin office, which is great work if you can get it.

It is clear that the Government prioritises optics over ordinary people and political projects over real human suffering. How can this Government justify unchecked spending on vanity projects while people in Donegal and the other counties are fighting to rebuild their lives? There is no doubt that there is a stark contrast between Dublin and Donegal in how public funds are allocated. At every level, the Government operates under a double standard. A teacher in this country can barely order a pencil without navigating an exhaustive procurement process, yet when it comes to hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money, there is absolutely no oversight, accountability or scrutiny. Homeowners who are also taxpayers are being held to an impossible standard, yet there is waste and mismanagement of money at the highest level of government which continues to go unchecked.

Enough is enough. The people of Donegal and affected counties deserve a full redress scheme. They deserve a Government that values family over facades, and emphasises fairness and fiscal responsibility. They deserve accountability. This is not just a housing crisis; it is now a moral crisis. Until there is accountability at the highest level, the cycle of waste will continue for years and years to come. It is time for the Government to bridge the divide. There needs to be a more equal approach to funding. We must start with those who need help the most. That includes the families affected by defective concrete.

Deputy Brian Stanley

This debate is welcome. However, the motion has a whiff of populism about it. As somebody who comes from a left, republican position, I believe in good public services, but I also believe in spending public money very well. We need to stop waste. Although those of us on the left advocate spending public money and creating good public services, it does not mean that we support wasting public money. That is the difference. Every euro of taxpayers' money has to be spent well. However, bringing in an Elon Musk or Michael O'Leary to run the show and oversee it will bring chaos. We are watching that in one of the largest economies in the world, never mind the chaos it would cause in our small country.

The examples of waste are shocking. We can list off a dozen, including the security hut. Some of the stuff I saw during my time as chairperson of the Committee of Public Accounts was absolutely shocking. There were open-ended, Wild West-type contracts in respect of the national children's hospital, which were wide open to exploitation, and thousands of claims by the contractor for more money, in addition to arbitration, court cases, etc. On metro north and the metro projects in Dublin, and this is one that defies me, how can hundreds of millions of euro be spent on a project when not even a shovel has been stuck in the ground? That money went to the private sector. This is astronomical stuff. Projects are being held up in the Minister of State's constituency of Longford-Westmeath, and in the constituency of Laois, because money is wasted on stuff relating to the national children's hospital. We need new health centres all over the place. We do not even have a primary care centre in Portlaoise, which is a town with a population bigger than Kilkenny city, because of this kind of waste of money and incompetence.

We should have good public services and we should spend money on them. The public will back that. The public generally has no problem paying tax. I do not want to speak for all of them, but certainly the people I come across and those who vote for me do not mind paying taxes. However, they want to see that they have health services, school places for their child who has autism, and affordable housing for their children to buy. That is what we need.

The debate is welcome but it cannot just be a debate where we get up and say, "That is grand. We had a good discussion here today." There has to be action. The Minister of State credits himself with getting things done. I will hold him to that, which I mean in a positive way. We need to get things done. The Minister of State has a role in respect of the OPW. There is some scandalous waste of money at the OPW but I also acknowledge the good work it does. I can list some of the projects in County Laois that the OPW oversees, including Heywood Gardens and Emo Demesne. I could list many more, including oversight of monuments, etc., and the good work that is done there. Good work is done but there are deficiencies that need to be fixed.

I will focus on the HSE. This is a very important issue. As I understand it, all parties in the House signed up to Sláintecare, which is the creation of a national health system for the first time in the more than 100 years of the State's existence. We have a mixture of voluntary, private and public in health - a mishmash. Again, I watched what was going on at the HSE over the past five years through the Committee of Public Accounts and tried to make some sense of it. This country puts more than €5,000 per person into the public health system annually. That is fine and we should do that. If we include the cost of what people pay privately, it is heading for €7,000 per head of population. There are countries in Europe with good economies and a high quality of living that have walk-in health systems, which do not have the years of waiting lists we have. It is four years for a hearing test or hearing treatment and four years for an eye test. I could go on and on, for example, it is two and a half to three years for a hip replacement.

These countries have good public health systems. We do not, despite the fact that we pump in more money. One of the reasons is the layers of bureaucracy and management. The system was created by the then Minister for Health, Micheál Martin, but we cannot go backwards. We have to move forward.

The other thing is that private companies are milking money out of the system left, right and centre. There was an agency secretary employed for almost seven years by the HSE. As we know, agency staff cost more. Eventually, the secretary was employed as a direct employee. That is just one example of where direct employment was cheaper. We need action. We do not need another Department. We have the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Office of Government Procurement. It is clear that they need reform, and we need to hold people to account at a senior level.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran)

I thank the Deputies for their contributions to the important debate on value for money in public expenditure. I agree that there has been a comprehensive and robust discussion. I thank the Deputies for proposing this debate and giving me the opportunity to assure the people of Ireland that the Government has put value for money at the heart of decisions on public expenditure by listing out some of the comprehensive frameworks that public bodies are obliged to follow and implement.

Following on from the Minister's remarks, I would like to emphasise again, on behalf of the Government, that the Government condemns the waste of public money and ensures frameworks are in place to provide the necessary accountability and oversight in respect of public spending. The Government amendment counteracts the narrative being put forward by the Opposition that the Government, over recent years, has not been putting oversight and accountability at the heart of expenditure and management. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a wide range of frameworks that public bodies must follow to ensure value for money and accountability at the highest level.

The Government, in its expenditure, has provided a robust response to the challenges faced by our country, including ensuring value for money is achieved in delivering on the expansion of services. This is a priority of the Government. In order to protect our economy and people, sensible choices were made in budget 2025, allowing growth in a sustainable way, investing in a better future and providing a sustainable approach to the environment.

As mentioned by the Minister in his contribution to the debate, the Government continues to invest in important public services and provides value for money, including through the expansion of health services, increases in core social welfare allowances, increased investment in housing, and the expansion of the hot school meals programme.

Investing in infrastructure is a critical component in supporting Ireland's growth and delivering better, fit-for-purpose public services. The increased capital expenditure in budget 2025 continues to deliver on the national development plan, which provides the vital infrastructure we need to support the future economy and meet social requirements and our climate change commitments. As Minister of State in the office of the OPW, I know of the benefits to communities and the relief felt by people in local rural communities across Ireland regarding flood works. On Friday, I look forward to meeting the people of Crossmolina, County Mayo, to mark the beginning of the construction of long-awaited €13.5 million flood works for the River Deel. This will protect the town from the effects of climate change.

That said, I recognise the delivery of capital projects has been challenged by a number of significant factors in recent years, including the continued impact of construction inflation on projects; labour shortages, particularly in the construction sector; and the ongoing delays in getting projects through the planning system. The Government approved a number of priority actions to improve the delivery of the national development plan projects, including the introduction of infrastructural guidelines in December 2023, and to reduce the administrative burden on Departments charged with infrastructure delivery. These actions will boost the delivery of critical infrastructure in a sustainable and cost-effective manner. Examples are the approximately 300 schools building projects annually and BusConnects. In my constituency, I welcomed recently developments in relation to the upgrading of the N4 for the people of Longford-Westmeath.

I acknowledge the diligent, comprehensive investigation by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and its staff in fulfilling its constitutional duty to provide annual reports on public services of the highest quality, based on the office's investigation into the efficiency of public expenditure under section 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General Act 1993. It would be an unnecessary waste of public moneys to duplicate this work of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General by using the private sector.

The Government has put in place a framework over many years to ensure value for money is achieved, as well as a number of public sector professional services to assist public bodies in delivering value for money. However, agreements and guidelines are required to be developed as a result of the investigations by the Comptroller and Auditor General and continue to be developed where there has been a waste of public money.

A lot has come up today. The debate started off with a critique of the public sector from Independent Ireland. During the general election campaign, which is not that long ago, they talked about a Luas for every town in Ireland. They came in here today and established an Elon Musk-type approach of killing the system and the people, the very people who are providing for this country. A lot of the talk about the OPW refers to the Hill of Tara. People love social media, love to go out, and love to stand and take pictures of themselves. They talk about a wall having been built for the past 12 years. The OPW is not building a wall at the Hill of Tara; it is carrying out maintenance work on a wall at the Hill of Tara. It might have gone on for 12 years and it might go on for another 12, but the Hill of Tara never closed. It was open to business for everybody to enjoy-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It opened-----

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Excuse me, I did not interfere with Deputy Tóibín. He stood there and portrayed everything we are doing on this side of the House as wrong. Shame on him for portraying that.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The people feel that.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Excuse me, Deputy. Everyone in this House had a chance to stand where I am. Every single one did but they all failed. They went to the rung of the ladder, went out on social media, went on radio and television, and talked about government but they failed to go into government. I went in because I believe I can make changes. I believe I can deliver-----

Deputy Michael Collins

You went in-----

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

I can deliver. In my Department, we will work tirelessly to make sure we do that. I was the first one to admit-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

I was the first one to apologise to people for mistakes made. However, when people come in here and talk about bike sheds, they should get it right. Bike shelters is what they are. This is a listed building. This is a building that is cherished by people all over the world, including the people of Ireland, and we cannot just dig up, throw in and do what you bloody well like, which is what the Deputies opposite are suggesting. They talk about the security hut-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Minister of State is digging.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Excuse me. They talk about the security hut. Let me remind everyone in the House, some of whom sit on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, that nothing can happen around the Houses without the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission knowing. It in the framing of the House. Nobody asked a question about security. The hut cost €300,000 but what goes on as part of security to protect the people in this institution?

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

It cost €1.4 million. The Minister of State should get his facts right.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

These are necessary things that had to be put in place. We have to protect the people who work here.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Check the record.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Is the Deputy telling me that we should not protect the people who work here? Doing so is totally wrong. It is unfair that the Deputies would come in criticising every element of what we do when we are all elected by the people and doing our best to serve them. We will continue to do so.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The Minister of State just said it cost €300,000. He should correct the record. It cost €1.4 million.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Sorry, it cost €300,000, and the auxiliary works attached to that-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Auxiliary works-----

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Sorry, but the security element of that cost the rest. I am sorry to say that, but that has to be done.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

To correct the record, we went in to meet the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and put a policy document in front of them. When we talked about trying to save the agricultural sector from a carbon tax, others decided to sign up to it. We talked about freezing it and perhaps putting it on aeroplane travel. People can decide whether to go on holidays but cannot decide whether to go to work 30 or 40 miles from where they live. Others decided they would let people suffer in that way. That was the reason we were not brought into government, just to put the record straight.

Everyone in the Opposition and the Government believes that the better and more efficiently we can do something, the more services, social housing and buildings we can supply around this country for the people who need them. Those people are our constituents around the country.

I welcome the announcement in respect of Crossmolina. The Minister of State and I were there in 2015 or 2016. I am sure he will agree. He and I went down there between 2016 and 2020 and that is too long for those people to live at risk. There are stumbling blocks to getting a job done efficiently. I am sure the Minister of State will agree that is a major problem in this country when compared with other countries. Why does it cost €3,000 or €4,000 per sq. m to build an apartment in Ireland when it costs €1,000 in Spain? The apartment might not be as fancy or particular, but there is a woeful difference in that price if you are trying to get value for money. That is what we are on about.

A few speakers referred to Elon Musk. He must be watching Irish television. In January 2024, which is 14 months ago, that lad had never been heard of. He was building cars at the time. We had these proposals in our document of what we were on about. It is not about scrapping every NGO. The first thing we said was that those working in the health service do great work. Should anybody have a problem if they are being reviewed to see if they are getting enough money or too much money? Take the housing sector. How many housing bodies do we have in this country? The Government had to go into its arse pocket and pull out €14 million or €15 million when a housing body was getting enough money. Are we saying that everything is hunky-dory? We are saying it is not hunky-dory that there is no accountability. We need the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department of public expenditure and reform to do their jobs. There are great civil servants and no one is criticising them. However, if they were doing their jobs, would we have a children's hospital going the way it is going? We need the hospital and no one is denying that, but it is an open book. Ironically enough, everyone is asking if we are having a go at civil servants when it would be a private company that would get less money if we were looking at it and things were done more efficiently.

Do we not agree that every builder who is building houses should be able to tender for social housing? The fact is that if you did not build a social house in the past five years, you cannot tender for a State job. Is that the right way of doing things or should we be allowing more builders to tender? Are we saying that the people who lay thousands of kilometres of pipes with the county council in group water schemes are not fit to lay an Irish Water pipe? Should they be allowed? Would that make things better? Should they be allowed to tender? My God, I think they should. That is how we get more efficiency around the country. Ministers cannot micro-watch or micromanage smaller projects. This is about having trust. It is about having balances and checks. That is why we are seeking an oversight body with expertise to watch the situation. We are not calling for cut after cut. We are seeking better value for money for all the different people around the country.

I ask this Government to look at what we are on about. Everyone refers to America, NGOs and whatever else. We need to do an overview. Do you know what? I do not think anyone who is doing a job efficiently would have anything to worry about. All Deputies are aware that if county councils have not spent their budgets towards the end of the year, they have to get rid of it or they get less money the following year. Why do we not look at value per kilometre for roads they do and give them more if they are very efficient? Those are the things we need to do under the likes of this motion.

Deputy Michael Collins

I have listened to all the speakers. I am disappointed with some of the parties here. I am not pointing the finger at Sinn Féin but at the Labour Party and the Social Democrats. They continue to count out waste in this Dáil. We put forward a working solution and I do not think those parties proposed an amendment but came in and criticised it. That is outrageous. The Social Democrats do not believe in this new body. Will we continue with the waste going on at the moment? That is outrageous. How do they face their electorate talking like that? They are talking out of the two sides of the same mouth. The Deputy from the Social Democrats said we do not need to cut NGOs. We certainly need to look at the money that is spent. Some NGOs are doing brilliant work but there is a huge amount of wastage. I am starting to wonder if people have another agenda. Were they working in NGOs before they came into the Dáil and want to protect that service?

The People Before Profit Deputy referred to the US Department of Government Efficiency. We came up with this idea well before any of the US officials. In January of last year, we included it in our proposals, on our website and in our policies, and we stand over it. We were ahead of the pack and let others, whether in America or England, follow suit. We were well ahead of the pack.

The People Before Profit Deputy said we should look under the bonnet. Even though he criticised our proposal, he said we should look under the bonnet. The same Deputy said last week that we should not have fossil fuel cars, electric cars or sports utility vehicles, SUVs. He wants no bonnets. It is the mudguard of a bike he wants to look under. That will tell you how far from reality that Deputy is.

The Labour Party asked who would want a watchdog. We are the watchdog. What have we, as politicians, achieved? We have not achieved anything in respect of expenditure and the money being blown left, right and centre in this country.

The Government amendment is scandalous. It is not in any way, shape or form going to address the waste in this country. In his contribution, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, said:

Furthermore, Article 33 of the Constitution establishes the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is a key institution in the checks and balances of our democracy. It continues to serve the State well and its reports are considered and held in high regard by the Committee of Public Accounts.

How can it continue to serve the State well with the absolute scandalous waste that is going on? The Minister of State, Deputy Moran, stood up and defended that. He should be ashamed to do that.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

I would defend it all day.

Deputy Michael Collins

The Minister of State is a man I respect-----

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

I respect the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Collins

-----but I will not respect him for that, if he does not mind me saying that now.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Do not come in here-----

Deputy Michael Collins

How can the Minister of State defend any Government or previous government that spent €808,000 on a Dáil printer and wasted the money? It spent €1.43 million on a security hut. It spent €2.5 billion, heading to €3 billion, on a children's hospital. It spent €22 million on a Covid ventilator that was never used. It spent €2.5 billion in medical compensation payouts. The Dáil bike shed cost €336,000. The Government wants to call it by some other name, the Dáil bike shelter. Come on to hell, it cost €336,000 of hard-earned taxpayers' money. These are people who get up in the morning and work their butts off for this country and the Government is robbing from their back pockets. That is not fair. The Minister of State stands there and tries to defend it. Some €825,000 was spent on the refurbishment of Iveagh House. Some €300 million was spent on the metro north link that was never built. Some €490,000 was spent on a wall at the Workplace Relations Commission. Some €7 million was spent by the Arts Council on an IT system. Some €120,000 was spent on a scanner for the National Gallery of Ireland. Electric buses were purchased and had no chargers for a year and a half. We need a Department of efficiency. We do not need to look at anywhere else across the world. We should stand on our own two feet and see the billions, not millions, that have been wasted. We should make ourselves accountable. The public out there are pointing the finger at every politician. Not every politician, civil servant and NGO is wrong, but there is wrong. We need to stand up and be strong in our voice to defend the taxpayers of this country, the ordinary, hardworking people, the people who worked hard and have now retired but are suffering in the cold because they cannot pay their oil or electricity bills.

It a shame for this Government. I am ashamed for it. Another expenditure was €54.6 million on e-voting a number of years ago. Nobody's head rolls. It is pat-on-the-back time in this country. It is a Government investigating itself. I ask the Government to change its mind and accept that a Department of efficiency and reform is needed.

It should be run by independent people-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Collins

-----who have a mind to change this country and give the money back to the people so they can have services like wastewater treatment plants and public transport. The people of Ballinascarty have have not had their rivers cleaned out and so their houses get flooded. That is where we are at. There is no money in the purse and no money announced yet.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 5 Mar 2025

Waste in Public Expenditure: Motion [Private Members]

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 2025