Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 2025

Vol. 1064 No. 6

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach is hell-bent on upending the democratic functioning of the Dáil to protect his grubby deal with Deputy Michael Lowry. Today the Taoiseach will try to ram through unprecedented changes to Dáil rules to allow Deputy Lowry and his group of TDs to sit in Government and Opposition at the same time. These are TDs who have pledged to support his Government in good days and in bad, to use their own words. It is a farce and it is making a mockery of this Dáil. Frankly, the lengths to which the Taoiseach has gone with this brazen stroke are staggering.

Let us put an end to the charade. The Michael Lowry group are Government TDs, plain and simple. They designated themselves as such when they helped to negotiate, write and agree the programme for Government. Their colleagues were rewarded with ministerial office. That is the reality. On 23 January, the Government gave its word that it would work for a solution acceptable to both Government and Opposition. Hildegarde Naughton, then Chief Whip, pledged in the Dáil to “work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition", but clearly the Taoiseach's word means nothing. He has gone back on his commitment and has made no genuine effort to find a resolution. Instead, he proposes to turn the Dáil inside out by allowing Government TDs access to the mechanisms which the actual Opposition uses to hold his Government to account. He wants the utterly absurd spectacle of Michael Lowry and his group taking Leaders' Questions and pretending to challenge the Government they are part of.

This is a sham. The Taoiseach has dug in because he does not want to be accountable. His claim that this is all about speaking time for backbenchers is patently untrue. In fact, he wants to get rid of Taoiseach’s Questions on a Wednesday. Pull the other one, Taoiseach.

Accountability matters. Just ask those he misled on housing delivery during the election or the parents of children with special needs who the Government led up the garden path on funding of services. The Taoiseach does not want to be accountable. Is that not the truth?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

This is stroke politics.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What exactly does Deputy Lowry have over the Taoiseach? What debt does he owe him? The former Fine Gael Minister, a rogue politician as the Taoiseach described him, is now kingmaker for the Government. This is a man the Taoiseach wants to sit in both government and opposition at the same time.

The combined Opposition has repeatedly sought to meet with the Taoiseach to resolve this matter. Our offers have either been rejected or ignored. He acts in bad faith. To meet his narrow short-term need to placate Lowry and Co., he now proposes to do real and lasting damage to the democratic processes of the Dáil.

Tá Fianna Fáil agus Fine Gael ag moladh feidhmiú daonlathach na Dála a iompú bun os cionn chun an socrú suarach atá acu leis an Teachta Lowry a chosaint. Ní ghlacfaidh muid leis. The combined Opposition is not backing down on this matter. We reject the Taoiseach's attempt to run roughshod over this Dáil and to ram through this motion. He can step back from the brink. He can still meet with the Opposition to work out a solution. What he will not get away with, however, is pretending that signed and sealed Government TDs can act as Opposition. You cannot be in government and opposition at the same time.

The Taoiseach

Ar dtús báire, is mian liom a rá nach n-aontaím in aon chor leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta McDonald.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ní rud nua é sin.

The Taoiseach

Tá sé dochreidte an méid atá ráite aici. Níl i gceist againn ach ocht nóiméad ar an Mháirt agus ocht nóiméad breise ar an gCéadaoin a thabhairt do chúlbhinseoirí-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Amaidí.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Minus 45 minutes.

The Taoiseach

-----an Rialtais agus Teachtaí Dála neamhspleácha. In essence, I have to say that-----

Deputy Seán Crowe

Spoofer.

The Taoiseach

-----the distortion of the debate is extraordinary. The disproportionate response of Sinn Féin and indeed the Opposition is extraordinary. Considering that this Dáil meets 101 days approximately per year.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Whose fault is that?

The Taoiseach

What is being proposed for 60 TDs is that they would have an opportunity-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There is only one who matters.

Deputy Matt Carthy

They have lots of opportunities and the Taoiseach knows it.

The Taoiseach

-----of eight minutes on a Tuesday and eight minutes on a Wednesday to ask a question of the Taoiseach of the day. That actually means that for an individual in that group of 60, it could be an opportunity-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They have Taoiseach's Questions.

(Interruptions)

The Taoiseach

I have not interrupted anyone. It basically means that once a year-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Who are you speaking to?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is not the issue.

The Taoiseach

-----a backbench TD may get that opportunity to speak in these sorts of questions.

(Interruptions)

Deputy Matt Carthy

It was not an issue when the Green Party was in government.

The Taoiseach

For all that, the Opposition has manufactured a political row and has raised this issue to heights that are quite farcical given the enormity of the issues we have to face as a country.

(Interruptions)

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You have done this.

The Taoiseach

If I may say-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Do Deputies wish to listen to the answer out of respect for the functions-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

We want an answer.

The Taoiseach

Again, I respect-----

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputies listen-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

The Taoiseach does not respect this House.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

How does Deputy Lowry pull the Taoiseach's strings from that distance?

Deputy David Cullinane

Answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please. The Taoiseach is speaking. Did Deputies not notice? A question was asked.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

But he is not saying anything.

An Ceann Comhairle

He is. The Deputy might not-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

He is talking to the Gallery.

The Taoiseach

I respect the rights of every Deputy who is elected to this House. I respect their rights.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Except those of the Opposition.

The Taoiseach

I respect their rights to be heard-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Is that when you are in government?

The Taoiseach

-----as well as their rights to speak.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Then why are you halving our time?

The Taoiseach

There is an attempt already to frustrate my attempt to speak here this afternoon in response to Deputy McDonald.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The Taoiseach is trying to escape his responsibility. Some 30 hours per year is a Government scapegoat.

The Taoiseach

In a more serious vein, the Opposition has been endeavouring to, if you like, direct or dictate a new departure, whereby it becomes the Opposition-----

(Interruptions)

Deputy David Cullinane

We are trying to stop a new departure.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition is now saying that it is up to it to decide who sits where in this House, who forms what group-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

No, by agreement.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Ceann Comhairle has already decided.

The Taoiseach

That is unprecedented by any yardstick.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That man is pulling your strings. That is what is happening.

The Taoiseach

I have never, and I am in this House-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

What has he got on you?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, I am standing. I expect that you will respect the Chair. We are in a democratic House. This is Leaders' Questions.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, whether you like what is being said or not, please listen. That is the process.

Deputy David Cullinane

If we got an answer, that would be nice.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have a lot of visitors in the Gallery. The public are watching. I am asking you all to have respect for one another, one and all. That is all I am asking for on behalf of those who are watching.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They are subverting this Chamber.

The Taoiseach

I was first elected to this House in 1989. I have never seen an attempt like this to say-----

Deputy David Cullinane

Now we are getting a history lesson.

The Taoiseach

I have never seen an attempt like this to tell-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You are right. We will agree on that one. Never before have we seen a stroke like this.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, while you may not have respect for me, I am the Chair. When I speak, nobody else speaks.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Respect the Ceann Comhairle's decision.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, I am asking that you respect the process and the operation of the House.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Just stick to the decision that was made.

An Ceann Comhairle

That means that when I speak, I ask you to have respect for the Chair. That decision has been made and it is well gone. We are in the democratic process of where we are on a different matter today. I ask Deputy McDonald to respond.

Deputy David Cullinane

No, it is the same matter.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

A Cheann Comhairle, with the greatest of respect, we are on the same ground. Micheál Martin can spare us and the nation his sanctimonious homilies on democracy. He has been here since 1989, which is a political lifetime. Never has such a brazen stroke been attempted. In all of the peculiar shenanigans of this place, there has never been something like this. The Taoiseach was quick enough to throw his own people under the bus in the last Dáil when it suited him. It is incredible that he will go to these extraordinary lengths for Deputy Michael Lowry.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We are asking why. We should have an answer to this. It is as simple as this: the Taoiseach should not take people for fools. People know that for their interests to be protected and for politics and democracy to work, the Government has its prerogatives to discharge. We respect that. The Taoiseach needs to respect the duty and the prerogatives of the Opposition but he does not want that. He wants a blunt Opposition because he does not want to be held to account. If he is worried about his backbenchers, he should leave Taoiseach's questions on a Wednesday. That gives them ample opportunity to raise matters with him.

The Taoiseach

I hope Deputy McDonald notes that she got full respect and opportunity to speak from this side of the House. I was not afforded that respect and courtesy from the other side of the House when I endeavoured to answer a while ago.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

You do not answer the question.

The Taoiseach

Fundamentally-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

An answer would be nice for a change.

The Taoiseach

The point I was making is that I have never before witnessed political parties trying to tell others what box they are in or what group they belong to.

Deputy David Cullinane

They chose the box themselves.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, you made a ruling and the Government is challenging that ruling. Do not blame us, Taoiseach. The Ceann Comhairle made the ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, resume your seats when the Ceann Comhairle is standing. We have spent hours. I have invested as much as 20 hours over the past months trying to come to a consensus and an agreement.

Deputy David Cullinane

There is not any-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Unfortunately, we have reached an impasse.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Because they did not want to reach a consensus.

An Ceann Comhairle

I expect respect, Deputy, so that I can finish what I am saying.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Let the ruling stand.

An Ceann Comhairle

Excuse me, Deputy, I am speaking. We have reached an impasse and when we reach an impasse, we then move to the mechanism that moves all those democratically elected from the impasse, which is the voting mechanism. We are now-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Did the Chief Whip mislead the Dáil when she sided with you, a Cheann Comhairle, with the acceptance of the Opposition? Could the Ceann Comhairle rule on that? Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead the Dáil-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

-----when she stood up and made a promise that the Government would bring forward a proposal that would be acceptable to the Opposition?

Deputy David Cullinane

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Perhaps you should make a judgment on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Doherty should resume his seat. He knows the rulings of the House.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Make a ruling on that issue, a Cheann Comhairle. Did the Chief Whip deliberately mislead this Dáil?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it the case that Deputy Doherty does not have respect for me or the Chair? Now it is becoming apparent that-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Doherty to respect the Chair. It is not me; I am not concerned. However, I am the Ceann Comhairle and I am sitting in the Chair and I expect a level of respect to come from each and every Member-----

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

-----when I speak. The level of disruption to which we can go today is well documented. We are either going to continue with Leaders' Questions or we can move on. Deputies may not like the answers they are getting but I cannot give instructions on answers.

Deputy John Brady

We are getting no answers.

An Ceann Comhairle

My function is to chair this Dáil and ensure that the House operates.

A Deputy

And to be fair and impartial as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are moving on with the business. I now move to Deputy Bacik.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Once more, with today's motion, the Taoiseach is dragging us back to this absurd technical groups issue.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Bombs are raining down in a genocidal bombardment on children in Gaza. The people of Ukraine are fighting for their country. Democracy is under threat across the globe - in Belarus, Hungary and Turkey. We see grim new milestones for global warming. The housing crisis is deepening here at home. Fears are growing about the impact of Trump's tariffs. These are the pressing issues that deserve all our attention. Instead, the Government insists on continuing to push through this proposed amendment to Standing Orders, which is a desperate distraction.

The Taoiseach seeks to confuse the issue. He talks about speaking rights, but we all know what is at issue here. This is a simple matter. You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

It is at precisely this time that we in this House need to stand firm and resolute in our defence of democratic values, and of our constitutional function as Members of Dáil Éireann.

Deputy Ged Nash

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Article 28.4.1° of our Constitution provides that: "The Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann." That is why our Standing Orders provide for Leaders' Questions. It is the set-piece exchange every week where we in opposition, as Opposition leaders, get to hold the Taoiseach and the Government to account. It matters for our communities that the lines are clear in a democracy and that we can assign responsibility when things go wrong. Since we took our seats in this Dáil, we sought accountability from the Taoiseach on many issues. For example, statements he and his Ministers made during the general election campaign, when they exaggerated how many houses would be built. We must hold the Government to account on those claims, and on so much more, on behalf of the people we represent.

There are massive delays in children seeking assessments of need. There are failures to provide school places for children with additional needs. There is a glaring absence of climate policies. It is our constitutional duty to represent our communities and hold the Government to account. That is why it matters when we see the Government's continued attempts to create a sham Opposition, a contrivance purely to placate the Lowry lobby.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

To describe Lowry's group as wolves in sheep's clothing would give them too much credit, but they are a very poor tribute act - a poor imitation of those of us who are genuinely in opposition and taking our constitutional duties seriously. The Taoiseach knows, as does everyone, that the manufactured, nonsensical "other Members' questions" device is really being introduced to give the Lowry lads and Deputy Toole special time to tell the Government how well it is doing. The Taoiseach knows it. Everyone in the country knows it. This is the group that has undertaken to support the Government in good times and bad. The Ceann Comhairle has ruled that they are not in opposition. Let us respect her ruling.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Let us give up this farce.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

How can the Taoiseach continue to justify this?

You cannot be in government and in opposition at the same time.

The Taoiseach

Let us see what is being proposed. Private Members' business still lasts for 120 minutes.

Deputy Ged Nash

Why is it being proposed in the first place?

The Taoiseach

There is no change to that. Sponsor time is still 40 minutes, no change.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

When you are in government, you are in government.

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin's time remains exactly as it was in the last Dáil.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is not the issue.

The Taoiseach

What is interesting is that each other Opposition grouping gains time in this Dáil under this proposal as compared with the last time out.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

You are turning yourself inside out.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Very generous.

The Taoiseach

I can recall a time, when the Labour Party had a calamitous general election result, that we facilitated reducing the threshold to allow the Labour Party to have speaking rights. That is easily forgotten by the Deputy and her party members. There is no change in Ministers and Ministers of State responding to the Dáil. In other words, there is absolutely no change in terms of accountability of this Government to the Dáil in comparison with the last Dáil.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Bar yourself.

Deputy David Cullinane

A big change.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

The Taoiseach

What is farcical is the extraordinary manufactured political row, which is wholly disproportionate to this issue-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

The Taoiseach

In other words, the change is very modest. It does not in any shape or form justify the level of dramatic action and feigned outrage that we are witnessing on the Opposition side.

Deputy David Cullinane

You are not selling your soul very well in fairness.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I agree with Deputy that there are far more substantive and profound issues------

Deputy Matt Carthy

Then deal with them.

The Taoiseach

-----facing this country that we should now be getting on with, such as housing and disability services------

Deputy David Cullinane

This is a political stroke and the Taoiseach knows it.

The Taoiseach

-----and perhaps what will perhaps be the most significant and profound economic winds blowing in our direction that we have seen for quite some time.

Deputy Matt Carthy

The Government is pulling a stroke.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

That is what this Dáil and Oireachtas need to focus on. We also need to focus on the wars that are raging in Europe and the Middle East with appalling and savage loss of life and slaughter of people. Are we seriously suggesting that giving eight minutes per day-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is not what it is about.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

-----to backbench TDs is such a profound change in the Standing Orders that it necessitates the feigned outrage that we are witnessing-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Bacik. Does the Taoiseach wish to continue?

The Taoiseach

I definitely do.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not your time yet, Deputy Bacik. The Taoiseach still has a minute left.

The Taoiseach

I make the point that the level of change here is so minuscule when you look at it.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Stop it.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The 60 TDs will get one chance a year to participate in this forum and that is exciting everyone. There will be one opportunity for a backbench TD to question me, the Taoiseach of the day, and the Opposition is all up to high doh with feigned outrage.

Deputy David Cullinane

It is an affront to democracy.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I will make one final point. When an election happens, there is a fundamental obligation to form a Government-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yes.

The Taoiseach

-----which has been completely lost of sight of-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

-----and the importance-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Keep shouting, keep shouting.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, all you are doing is running down the clock.

The Taoiseach

The point I was making was that Governments were formed with the support of three Independent TDs, no one at the time------

Deputy David Cullinane

There are more than three.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

They are in government with you.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

It is noteworthy that people on the opposite side do not want to hear a response to the questions being asked.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We want answers.

The Taoiseach

It is a complete shoutdown. They shout down the debate because they do not want to hear explanations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

No Opposition TD ever lost any rights to this day. This has been proved by multiple senior counsel opinions at this stage under previous Standing Orders.

Deputy David Cullinane

It is a political issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach. Your is time up. I call Deputy Bacik to respond.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

As we all know, the Ceann Comhairle ruled on 3 February that the Lowry grouping is not in opposition. Let us respect that ruling.

Deputy David Cullinane

Hear, hear

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The only manufacturing going on is the Taoiseach seeking to manufacture a sham Opposition, pretending that this is about speaking rights for Government backbenchers. He knows it is not. Everyone in the country knows it is not because all Government backbenchers, including those in the Lowry group, have privileged access to Government Ministers and they already have speaking time. I feel sorry for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael backbenchers. Very few of them have been out defending the indefensible on the airwaves because they know they have speaking time already. They know they have in Questions on Policy or Legislation and Taoiseach's Questions. The Government's proposal will make them lose out too. They will not be able to dominate Taoiseach's questions any longer, because he has used this row to give himself Wednesday afternoons off, slashing that slot to carve out time for the Lowry gang. This is the indefensible. It is manufacturing a sham Opposition. We all know what this is really about.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

You acknowledged yourself-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you Deputy.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

-----that Michael Lowry is in government when you promised the public that he-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, your time is up. Allow the Taoiseach to respond.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

-----would "not be in government to do any corruption", so what is this all about?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bacik, thank you.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

What is the hold that he and his group have on you?

Deputy Ged Nash

It is a sad day.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

That is what people want to know about this stroke.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy feigns sympathy for the Government backbenchers-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

So do you.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Of course we do.

The Taoiseach

-----but there is an issue around proportionality in terms of how the Dáil is structured. In recent times, from 2016 onwards when we changed the thresholds to allow smaller groups to be formed, there has been a wholly disproportionate platform for some representatives, such as when one Independent joins three or four other Independents. They have had far more speaking time than Government backbenchers have had over the last five years and that is going to change. This is an attempt to rebalance that.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Then it has taken you nine years to stand up for your own backbenchers.

Deputy Conor Sheehan

The Taoiseach is very selective.

The Taoiseach

I am not very selective

Deputy Eoghan Kenny

You are.

The Taoiseach

Deputy, with the greatest of respect, your party was very grateful for the fact we were sympathetic enough-----

Deputy Eoghan Kenny

To clean up your mess.

The Taoiseach

-----to accommodate you when you lost a whole range of seats.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We have never been grateful to Fianna Fáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy. The Taoiseach has ten seconds left.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

He is running out of time all right.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not expect-----

Deputy John Brady

Maybe he will provide an answer in those ten seconds-----

An Ceann Comhairle

-----that the democratic process operates like this-----

Deputy John Brady

-----on what hold Deputy Lowry has on him.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----and I do not think the public do either. Could you please allow it to continue?

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

A Cheann Comhairle, the public do not want to see a stroke happening like the Government is attempting today.

An Ceann Comhairle

Taoiseach, you have ten seconds or we can move on.

The Taoiseach

I am fine.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are fine. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan on Leaders' Questions.

Deputy John Brady

Maybe Mr. Lowry has something to say about all this.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Will he finally make a statement? Do you want to make a statement, Mr. Lowry? Silence from Deputy Lowry.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, allow your colleague to have his time for Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Just on a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

There is not a point of order-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

You have to hear him first.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Deputy Lowry said he wanted to make a statement. Does he want to make one now?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, there is no point-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Would he like to make a statement now? He said he was going to make a statement. He was beating his chest that he was going to make a statement. Where is Deputy Lowry's statement?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no point of order-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Can we have a statement from Deputy Lowry?

An Ceann Comhairle

-----when the Chair is standing. Deputy O'Callaghan, please.

Deputy Mark Ward

Get your time back, Cian.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Will I not get three minutes, a Cheann Comhairle? No. Okay.

Deputy James Lawless

It is your friends' fault.

Deputy John Brady

No, it is your fault. It is your stroke.

Deputy Gary Gannon

It is your friends' fault.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Taoiseach's efforts to defend the indefensible are not working. Dáil rules are being reverse-engineered to guarantee one outcome, that is, that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will deliver on the deal they have made with Michael Lowry. That is what it all boils down to. The Taoiseach's backbenchers are well aware he would not be going to these extremes for them. The truth is the Government has caused chaos in this Dáil and delayed setting up committees to facilitate Michael Lowry and keep him happy. The public have a right to know what was in the deal with Michael Lowry. The Taoiseach should come clean on that. This is a shameless political stroke that would make even Bertie blush. There are clear lines of separation between Government and Opposition because we have different functions. That has always been recognised in Dáil procedures because it is fundamental to how this place operates. It is the job of Government TDs to support the Government and of Opposition TDs to hold the Government to account. Is this accountability what the Government is afraid of and so desperate to avoid?

In a way I get it. This Government has already made a disaster in terms of broken election promises. It spectacularly failed to deliver 40,000 homes it promised last year. It promised to prioritise enacting the occupied territories Bill but it has been put on the long finger. Government parties spent the election promising tax cuts and enormous spending increases even though we in the Social Democrats warned this was reckless behaviour and now the finance Minister has admitted those promised tax cuts are highly unlikely to ever materialise. The truth is Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael cannot be trusted.

After Fianna Fáil bankrupted the country and the troika took over in 2010 we were promised, "Never again". Reforms of Dáil procedure to strengthen Opposition oversight were introduced post crash. It is clear the Government has forgotten about the lessons of the past. Instead of strengthening accountability it wants to weaken it. Stroke politics and dodgy deals with Michael Lowry have taken precedence and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are reverting to type - arrogant complacency. Does the Taoiseach really think people voted for that? He made a pledge that any changes to Standing Orders would be done in agreement with the Opposition. It is clear he has no intention of honouring that.

Deputy John Brady

Another broken promise.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Given this track record of duplicity, why should anyone in the Opposition or the public trust what he says?

The Taoiseach

The people voted in the last general election-----

Deputy Rory Hearne

They did not vote for Michael Lowry.

The Taoiseach

-----and they clearly voted, whether you like it or not-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

It seems the election result never sunk in with people on the opposite side.

Deputy David Cullinane

No. False pretences.

(Interruptions).

Deputy David Cullinane

You misled people-----

A Deputy

A three-card trick.

Deputy David Cullinane

-----and now you are pulling a stroke.

The Taoiseach

That is just a reality. Therefore, it fell to this side of the House-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Rory Hearne

We did not see Micheal Lowry in the manifesto.

Deputy David Cullinane

You misled people.

The Taoiseach

-----to form a government.

Deputy John Brady

You are trying to control-----

The Taoiseach

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael did not have the numbers.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please. The Taoiseach is addressing Deputy O'Callaghan.

The Taoiseach

You were not really interested in going into government.

Deputy Rory Hearne

Come on.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Give us a break.

The Taoiseach

You had no interest at all. You had none. Your manifesto was so threadbare in any detail that it was no wonder.

Deputy David Cullinane

Well yours was a pack of lies.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Michael Lowry's manifesto. What was that about?

The Taoiseach

The Labour Party did not want to go into government------

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

The Taoiseach

The Labour Party did not want to go into government because it was watching you. You are both watching each other. You are both nervous of each other, so therefore you did not come forward.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Sinn Féin did not have the numbers to form a government-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The Taoiseach is being asked a very specific set of questions. He could answer them.

The Taoiseach

-----and Independent Ireland had some issues that we did not find agreement with but at least its members came in and engaged with us in a substantive way. The Regional Independent Group said they wanted to support and facilitate the formation of a government.

(Interruptions).

Deputy John Brady

As you are talking about it, what was the deal?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What was the deal?

The Taoiseach

That is not new, by the way. That is not new.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Exactly, they are in government.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

This has been a feature of our fragmented system.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

The Taoiseach

Our electoral system has in recent times and will in the future create a fragmented result. The danger in what the Opposition is saying is-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy David Cullinane

It is called deflection.

The Taoiseach

Say after the next general election in five years' time, a potential government is short three or four TDs. Why would three or four Independent TDs volunteer to facilitate the formation of a government?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Why would they?

Deputy John Brady

Exactly. Answer that question.

The Taoiseach

Why would they do that if it meant-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies.

The Taoiseach

-----that the rest of the Opposition said, "We are going to deny you your rights as TDs if you dare facilitate and support the Government". Looking at it from my perspective-----

Deputy David Cullinane

You are making it worse the longer you are on your feet.

The Taoiseach

-----and from a constitutional perspective, it is quite an extraordinary thing you are trying to do here which will actually-----

Deputy David Cullinane

Protect democracy.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Hold you to your word is what he is trying to get you to do.

The Taoiseach

-----undermine any potential for the formation of a government into the future.

Deputies

Nonsense.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

You are now basically saying that no Independent in the future-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The Taoiseach has been asked some very specific questions and he is refusing to answer them.

The Taoiseach

You are not a leader yet, Deputy.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

You have been asked very specific questions here Taoiseach. We deserve an answer. Will you respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I am standing.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I am standing.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Will the Taoiseach respect the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Whether you like what is being said or not, you will have respect for the position of the Ceann Comhairle. When the Ceann Comhairle stands, you sit-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

And I am sitting-----

An Ceann Comhairle

-----and it does not matter who you are.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The Taoiseach should have respect for the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have asked you to sit. I am speaking, Deputy.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

And I can hear you.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not wish to spell respect. We are all adults. We are well aware of what we-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

There has to be respect for the democratic process-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Excuse me, Deputy.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

We are asking for the Taoiseach to respect the decision the Ceann Comhairle made.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is very apparent-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

We are asking that the Taoiseach respect the decision that he is riding roughshod over.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----here today now that nobody is interested in hearing answers.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We want answers.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We would love to hear an answer.

Deputy David Cullinane

The Taoiseach is not interested in giving us answers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Afford him the respect to at least have the answer listened to.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That is an interpretation, Ceann Comhairle.

Deputy David Cullinane

We would love answers.

Deputy John Brady

This is a pantomime with no answers.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is using up Deputy O'Callaghan's time. Does the Deputy wish to make his minute heard? His Opposition colleagues clearly do not.

Deputy David Cullinane

Yes, we do.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We do.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Taoiseach is right. This is quite extraordinary-----

The Taoiseach

I did not get a chance to finish what I was saying.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Yes, but in more than 100 years of this Dáil, never ever in the weekly schedule has there a time slot created where 100% of the time is allocated to the Government. Does the Taoiseach not see something fundamentally wrong-----

Deputy James Lawless

Leader's Questions.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

-----with a time slot being created where Government TDs ask the Taoiseach questions without any input from the Opposition? Can the Taoiseach tell me of any parliament in the world where there is a time slot where 100% of it-----

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

North Korea.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

-----is for government backbenchers to ask government leaders questions with no time allocated to the opposition? That does not exist. Therefore, this is quite extraordinary and it should not be done. Will he tell me one place in the world where this happens?

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

It is not happening here.

The Taoiseach

Westminster.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

No, it does not.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Ken O'Flynn

Do you want to go back there?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputies.

The Taoiseach

Deputies, I am making the point in answer to the question - in fairness the Deputy has asked questions and I think I should be allowed the right to answer but other Deputies do not want me to because they do not like the answer.

Deputy Ged Nash

Want to try again?

Deputy Matt Carthy

How is that going now?

Deputy David Cullinane

Hold the Government to account.

The Taoiseach

What I would say to you is this; in the future, for example, there could be three or four TDs who could facilitate the formation of a Government. What the Deputy is now saying is that Independent TDs in the future attempting to facilitate the formation of a Government will have their rights diminished. That is the essence of the Opposition proposal.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy deserves an answer.

Deputy Martin Kenny

He has had four chances and he still has not answered the question.

The Taoiseach

Take Deputies McGrath and Nolan, for example, they are part of this group. They have voted against the Government three or four times already but the Deputy and others are taking it upon themselves to tell them they must be corralled in a certain part of the Dáil and can only be allowed to do A, B and C. That is unconstitutional. You have no right to do that. You have absolutely no right to do that and it is wrong.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Matt Carthy

A Cheann Comhairle, is he doing this for his own backbenchers or is he doing it for Deputy McGrath? We need clarity on that issue now. Who is the Taoiseach actually fighting for now?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sit down, Deputy. You are making a show of yourself; sit down. I thank the Taoiseach, his time is up. I call Deputy Collins.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Time is definitely up.

Deputy Michael Collins

If we go ahead today with Government proposals on giving extra time for Government-backing TDs in Opposition time, it shows how far this Government is capable of going in eroding the democracy of the island of Ireland.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Collins

Our general election took place on 29 November 2024, and for a couple of months a Government had to be put together. On 22 January, the Dáil sat and for the first time was forced to call off Dáil proceedings so an agreement could be made to bring this speaking row to an end. All of this time we the Opposition were united on one front: that Deputy Lowry's group had a right to speaking time in this Dáil but not on Opposition time.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Collins

Every effort by the Government since has been to do everything but that. On the morning of 23 January, the Taoiseach and Tánaiste met with us leaders to end this row and let the Dáil get back to the business it had to do - elect the Taoiseach, set up committees - and we all agreed we would work together to create a solution on this hugely important issue for the country.

Less than an hour later, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, read a statement into the Dáil record. It was agreed by the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and all the Opposition that, "the Government will today bring forward a motion to establish the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform...and to work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition, as regards formation of technical groups." The Business Committee met that day and agreed we would all put forward submissions on a way forward. Again, the Opposition was clear. We never denied any speaking times to Michael Lowry's group of six TDs but this would be specifically during Government speaking time slots, not Opposition-----

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Collins

-----as they have clearly agreed to support this Government one way or another, which is their own prerogative I may add. The next scheduled meeting of the Dáil reform committee was scheduled for 26 February. At this meeting came the bombshell from the Government Chief Whip, Deputy Mary Butler, that the previous verbal agreement given by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and read out by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, was now being reneged on------

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Shameful.

Deputy Michael Collins

------and a railroading of democracy was going ahead. When summing up today, the Taoiseach will say we had enough time to try to get an agreement from the Opposition but it would not agree. Since the day he was elected, however, we have only had two meetings of the Dáil reform committee to try to resolve this issue in 28 days. I know because I attended these meetings. Is the Taoiseach a man of his word or not? Does he agree with me that this was the sequence of events? Am I right in saying if he really wanted to bring this to a fair and honest end, he would have asked his Chief Whip to meet every day to resolve the issue and not two meetings - one to iron out the procedures for the next meeting and the next to railroad through, making a mockery of this House and its procedures?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Collins

We have written to the Taoiseach numerous times to try to resolve this issue and to make sure this dark day for democracy would not happen but he has chosen to ignore it. Will the Taoiseach at this late stage, sit down with the Opposition leaders and thrash out an agreement to bring this sorry episode to an end?

Deputy David Cullinane

He will only deal at Dáil times.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy David Cullinane

End of stroke politics.

The Taoiseach

Such hyperbole is really stretching it. The bottom line is this-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy David Cullinane

End of stroke politics.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Does your word mean anything?

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Obviously not.

The Taoiseach

------that three of the Opposition parties gain more time in terms of holding the Government to account. That is the factual position, as a result of 20 hours of discussions and so forth between the Chief Whip and the Whips of the other parties and also in terms of the committee on Dáil reform. That is the mechanism we have established in terms of the committee on Dáil Reform.

Deputy David Cullinane

Deflection again.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Allow a debate here.

The Taoiseach

I say to the Deputy, from his perspective he is not losing any time.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We are.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We are losing time at the Order of Business and Taoiseach's Questions.

The Taoiseach

You are not compared to the last Dáil, you are actually gaining time and that is the bottom line here.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies will have their chance. This is Deputy Collins's question.

The Taoiseach

This was raised earlier. If you compare Dáil Éireann to any other parliament in Europe, you will find the Opposition has more time than any other Opposition in any other parliament across Europe. Certainly in terms of Prime Ministers across Europe, no Prime Minister is in parliament more than the Irish Taoiseach is in Dáil Éireann.

This can be checked out and looked at in terms of other parliaments across Europe. This proposal is proportionate because it is endeavouring to give backbench TDs of the Government parties and Independent TDs an opportunity-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

-----with eight minutes on a Tuesday or on a Wednesday. All this row, about the dark days of Irish democracy, is about eight minutes extra on a Tuesday and eight minutes extra on a Wednesday-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is stroke politics.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

This apparently means we are on the brink of a terrible sort of negativity and so on.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

Over the past ten years, there has been a consistent, incremental increase in time allocated to smaller groups within the Dáil and to Independents within the Dáil. There is a group on the far left that has about three or four Members with more speaking rights than other with 40 TDs or more.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

That has been the reality over the past ten years.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

There needs to be a degree of rebalancing.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is Deputy Lowry a Government TD?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Backbench Deputies need the opportunity to ask questions.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

There is no big deal in that. It does not in any way-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The big demand from members of the Opposition at the beginning, when we met with them, was not to lose any time. They have not lost any time.

Deputy Ged Nash

It is Stockholm syndrome.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition groups have actually gained time.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Deputy Collins's time.

Deputy Robert O'Donoghue

All this just for Deputy Michael Lowry.

A Deputy

It is a difference of 25 hours.

The Taoiseach

It is interesting. I made a fundamental point. When a general election happens, and the Deputy knows this because they have engaged with us at different times after different elections, Governments have to be formed.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

There is the realpolitik of forming a government. Governments have to be formed.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Some people have no interest in forming a government. That is fair enough but others do. The programme for Government-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

The programme for Government is the document that binds the people who are going to support the Government together. Underlying all of this, and the Deputy said we could have brought this to an end, I actually do not believe the Opposition wants to bring this to an end.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The Opposition is enjoying it a bit for its own electoral purposes. However, I want to make this point-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up. I thank the Taoiseach. I call on Deputy Collins to respond.

Deputy Michael Collins

I thank the Ceann Comhairle. It looks like, no matter what we say here, the Government is going to railroad these changes through. It is very clear to the good, honest and hard-working people of this country that this is what the Taoiseach was going to do anyway. He has to be straight and honest. What is the deal he has done with Deputy Michael Lowry that has him spellbound? We know the deal has cost more than €5 million already with extra super junior Ministers, extra junior Ministers and extra payments for them alone over five years. Is it going to cost the honest and hard-working taxpayer €50 million? Is it going to cost €100 million, €200 million or above?

Deputy David Cullinane

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Collins

We need to know. The taxpayer needs to know. The ordinary man and woman who cannot afford to pay weekly bills need to know here and now. They know it is a sleazy deal that taxpayers must pay heavily for. On top of that, the Taoiseach wants them to ask planted questions in this House to make a mockery of the Irish people in Dáil Éireann.

I ask the Taoiseach to come clean on the deal that might yet crumble around him and to pull back from the mockery of the Irish people who are not with him on this one. Will he admit he cut 45 minutes of Taoiseach's Questions? Will he admit he cut the Order of Business time? Will he admit he cut Private Members' business time for our party by 20% on Wednesdays and Thursdays? This Lowry deal has cost us enough financially.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Collins.

Deputy Michael Collins

Do not let it cost us our democracy also.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy cannot be serious. He talks about it costing our democracy. Eight minutes on a Tuesday and our democracy is gone.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputies.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is the Taoiseach familiar with democracy?

The Taoiseach

Come on; it is farcical. However, in a more serious vein-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat? This is Deputy Collins's time.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

What is really behind this, and it is very clear, is that the Opposition-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

There is a fundamental issue here-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The fundamental issue here is the lack of respect for the Chair. The salient ruling-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputies are making an absolute holy show of themselves. I am loath to say it again but will the Deputy resume his seat?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Paul Murphy

Sorry, Ceann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

All Deputies, resume your seats.

Deputy Paul Murphy

-----I will not resume my seat.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, out of respect------

Deputy Paul Murphy

What is at stake here is a fundamental subversion of our rights to hold the Government to account. It is a fundamental question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, while you may not have respect for me-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

They need to convey why they are breaking their word to the Opposition. They told us on the day, on the floor here. You made the commitment it would be an agreement.

Deputy Naoise Ó Cearúil

We can hear you okay.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Tell us now why you are breaking your word. What did that guy do to you in between?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, resume your seat.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You said there would be agreement so stand up and say it. You can laugh all you want, Michéal, but it is not funny. It is not funny what you are doing.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

You might laugh, Taoiseach, but you are not in the White House now. Get up.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are making-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is shocking what you are doing. It has never, ever happened, the stunt that you are trying to pull here.

An Ceann Comhairle

For the public watching, you are making a holy-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is not going to happen.

An Ceann Comhairle

One of your colleagues mentioned misogyny.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Misogyny is what was mentioned earlier.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

This is a disgrace. Unbelievable.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

This is a disgrace from the Government who are not listening to the Opposition and not listening to their own backbenchers. This is wrong. It is a disgrace.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

Answer the question honestly. Give us an honest answer.

A Deputy

You have not answered the question. Not honest, but misleading.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is an absolute disgrace. You are making a holy show of yourselves for the world to see.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

It is very clear you have no respect for the Chair-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We have-----

An Ceann Comhairle

-----none whatsoever. On one hand-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

You will be aware that the public are watching. On one hand, you want this-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Can you ask the Chief Whip-----

An Ceann Comhairle

On one hand, you wish the Government to have respect for the Ceann Comhairle's ruling while you yourselves are seemingly incapable-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

-----of accepting.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, I will not be-----

A Deputy

This is not good enough.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I am going to remain standing until each and every one of you resume your seats.

(Interruptions).